more confirmed kills for the air force

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 31, 2003, 5:55 pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 44,00.html

'The Yank opened up. He had absolutely no regard for human life. He was a cowboy out on a jolly'
Patrick Barkham meets the "friendly fire" victims

THREE wounded British soldiers described yesterday how they survived a terrifying attack by an American anti-tank aircraft that killed one of their troop and destroyed two armoured vehicles.
One of the survivors criticised the American pilot for showing “no regard for human life” and accused him of being a cowboy who had gone out on a jolly.

Another survivor said that he had stumbled out of the burning wreckage of his light tank and waved frantically to the pilot of the low-flying A10 to try to halt his “friendly fire” as he returned to attack again.

The blunder, 35 miles north of Basra, left one soldier missing, presumed dead, and another in intensive care on the hospital ship RFA Argus. A sixth Household Cavalry soldier escaped without injury when the two Scimitar light tanks were destroyed.

Lieutenant Alex MacEwen, 25, Lance Corporal of Horse Steven Gerrard, 33, and Trooper Chris Finney, 18, were flown home last night with shrapnel wounds and burns. Before leaving the Argus they spoke of their bewilderment and anger that, despite flying very low over their heads, the A10 pilot apparently failed to recognise the coalition identification markings on their British-made tanks. Another vehicle in the five-strong convoy patrolling the marshes near the meeting of the Euphrates and Shatt al-Arab rivers bore a large Union Jack.

“All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They’ve said if you put this kit on you won’t get shot,” LCoH Gerrard said from his hospital bed on the Argus. “We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres, yet you’ve got an A10 with advanced technology and he can’t use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It’s ridiculous.

“Combat is what I’ve been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.”

The two Scimitars, followed by two armoured engineers’ vehicles and another Scimitar light tank, were on a “recce” of a road northwest of al-Dayr, 25 miles north of Basra in southern Iraq, on Friday. After coming under fire from Iraqi artillery, they were instructed to investigate a shanty town when another light reconnaissance tank troop captured several white pick-up trucks laden with armed Iraqis.

Troop leader Lieutenant MacEwen — who now has special plastic bags tied round his hands to treat his burns — described how the convoy tensed, fearing an ambush, as they watched villagers waving white flags approach from behind a large bank.

“My heart started pounding,” he said. “You could see the white flags above the bank, but you didn’t know whether they had any intention of surrendering or ambushing us.”

LCoH Gerrard, the commander of the leading tank, described “frightened and curious” villagers waving white flags. “I stuck my hand up and waved at them. I could see they were frightened. I felt sorry for them.” Suddenly, LcoH Gerrard heard the distinctive, relentless roar of an A10’s anti-tank gunfire. “I will never forget that noise as long as I live. It is a noise I never want to hear again,” he said.

“There was no gap between the bullets. I heard it and I froze. The next thing I knew the turret was erupting with white light everywhere, heat and smoke. I didn’t even have time to close my eyes or blink. I don’t know why I’ve still got hair or eyebrows.

“I felt I was going to burn to death. I just shouted, ‘Reverse, reverse, reverse’. My headset had come off. My gunner was screaming, ‘Get out, get out.’ I was out of the turret in milliseconds. How I got out of that hole I don’t know. Then I saw the A10 coming again and I just ran.

“I’ll never forget that A10. He was about 50 metres off the ground. He circled, because he can turn on a ten-pence. He came back around. He was no more than 1,000 metres away when he started his attack run. He was about 500 metres away when he started firing.

“On the back of one of the engineers’ vehicles there was a Union Jack. It’s about 18 inches wide by about 12 inches. For him to fire his weapons I believe he had to look through his magnified optics. How he could not see that Union Jack I don’t know. It was like Platoon. I was stood there on a little bank 25 metres away from my tank waving.”

The front two Scimitars, packed with ammunition, grenades, rifle rounds and diesel tanks, exploded into flames. Lance Corporal of Horse Matty Hull, 25, did not escape.

Trooper Finney was injured when the A10 returned for a second run. He said: “The plane came over again and it started shooting. I saw sparks coming from the ground or my leg. It didn’t hurt, it felt like someone had kicked me in the back of my leg. I felt warm down the back of my leg. Blood was spurting everywhere. I thought I was dead.”

LCoH Gerrard criticised the A10 for shooting when there were civilians so close to the tanks. He said: “There was a boy of about 12 years old. He was no more than 20 metres away when the Yank opened up. There were all these civilians around. He had absolutely no regard for human life. I believe he was a cowboy.

“There were four or five that I noticed earlier and this one had broken off and was on his own when he attacked us. He’d just gone out on a jolly.

“ I’m curious about what’s going to happen to the pilot. He’s killed one of my friends and he’s killed him on the second run.”

Lieutenant MacEwen described how he saw the A10 return after he stumbled, burning, from his flaming tank and ran for the cover of a reed bed on the marshes. “There was a horrible smell of what I though was something burning, but then I discovered it was a bit of my own eyebrows. That lingered with me for a good hour or two.”

He added: “After this I am quite pleased to be going home. ‘Blue-on-blue’ has always been one of my biggest fears. It is something that my friends and family joked about. ‘Don’t worry about the Iraqis, it’s the Americans you want to watch.’ The proof is in the pudding really.”

miir · Post by **miir** » March 31, 2003, 6:15 pm

The chest thumping warmongers will probably defend the fucking pilot by blaming the UK soldiers for being in the wrong place at the wrong time....

Or maybe that the pilot confused the FV-107s for a couple of T55s......

Because we all know American soldiers are infallible.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » March 31, 2003, 6:29 pm

No, they aren't infallible.

Now, point me out a war without a friendly fire incident.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » March 31, 2003, 6:32 pm

Not to take away from the horors of "friendly fire", but I have to play skeptic here. First of all, I have to wonder if the Brits were in an area the coalition command knew about, given that their presumably British superiours altered their orders in the field (or so it would appear). Its concievable that the British brass who issued the orders didn't notify Coalition HQ of the likely positions those vehicles would be in. Also, there has been a lot of incidents of Iraqis masqerading as civilians, surrendering troops, and even friendly troops to get the jump on Coalition forces there. This contributes to a "shoot first ask questions later" mentality. Also, those tank killer planes tend to be basically fucked if they dont hit their mark on the first pass, which doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

All that said, given the tactics the Iraqis are using, all those guys have to be more careful especially units that rely on suprise to achieve their objective. The survivors are naturally going to be pissed off, but charactarizing a guy as a bloodthirsty cowboy is a bit out there, especially given that he was simply doing his job. Until they debrief the A10 pilot and/or his CO, you can't really make any assumptions about what his perceptions were at the time.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » March 31, 2003, 6:32 pm

There is a difference between unforeseeable friendly fire and incompetence\irresponsible conduct.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 31, 2003, 6:32 pm

yeah they are almost as rare as a war that doesn't involve asshole cowboy US pilots strafing their allies for lack of anything better to shoot.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 31, 2003, 6:38 pm

A FV-107 does not look the slightest bit like any armored vehicle currently used in the Iraqi armed forces.

You can tell the difference between a T55 and a Scimitar with the naked eye from about 500m. A10s have sensors that can identify vehicles from many KILOMETERS away... this fucking yahoo was 50m up and swung around for a second run....

Cmon Jice, we all know you're a fucking idiot, but you really can't be that stupid.

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » March 31, 2003, 6:52 pm

however,

a BMP and a scimitar have SIMILAR profiles (not same, if you look for more than 10 seconds you will notice differences).

Both have low decks, and rearward mounted turrets. The Scimitar has a longer barrell, and only 5 road wheels, while the BMP has 6 roadwheels.) (these are the wheels that the track runs along).

The scimitar is also more "boxy" in the turret.

Regardless, the Pilot is in the wrong. Positive identification must be made before opening fire.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » March 31, 2003, 6:56 pm

Beats the fuck out of bayonetting your own troops for disobeying orders, or shooting your own civilians who are trying to get out of the way, don't it?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » March 31, 2003, 7:04 pm

Very sad news. I am surprised these occurences keep happening.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » March 31, 2003, 7:09 pm

This one is even more sad than Kyoukans link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82742,00.html

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » March 31, 2003, 7:23 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:This one is even more sad than Kyoukans link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82742,00.html

What I find sad is that the troops found it necessary. Why did they find it necessary?

Gee, look at the last paragraph, and then reflect upon the statements made by the regime, to the effect "These suicide bombings will be come the norm in Iraq's military strategy". And the fact that Saddam rewarded the family of the first suicide bomber.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 31, 2003, 7:37 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:yeah they are almost as rare as a war that doesn't involve asshole cowboy US pilots strafing their allies for lack of anything better to shoot.

Like they do it on purpose, Jesus Christ your shit just got old.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » March 31, 2003, 7:43 pm

Fizzlewhip wrote:
Krimson Klaw wrote:This one is even more sad than Kyoukans link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82742,00.html
What I find sad is that the troops found it necessary. Why did they find it necessary?

Gee, look at the last paragraph, and then reflect upon the statements made by the regime, to the effect "These suicide bombings will be come the norm in Iraq's military strategy". And the fact that Saddam rewarded the family of the first suicide bomber.

This could only have been prevented one way, the vehicle stopping. I understand this, but that does not change the fact that 13 innocents were gunned down. I don't blame the marines but it is a tragedy nonetheless

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » March 31, 2003, 7:53 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:
Fizzlewhip wrote:
Krimson Klaw wrote:This one is even more sad than Kyoukans link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82742,00.html
What I find sad is that the troops found it necessary. Why did they find it necessary?

Gee, look at the last paragraph, and then reflect upon the statements made by the regime, to the effect "These suicide bombings will be come the norm in Iraq's military strategy". And the fact that Saddam rewarded the family of the first suicide bomber.
This could only have been prevented one way, the vehicle stopping. I understand this, but that does not change the fact that 13 innocents were gunned down. I don't blame the marines but it is a tragedy nonetheless

I agree if what we've been reading is the whole story.

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » March 31, 2003, 9:39 pm

Friendly fire is going to happen in any war. Most wars in the past didn't have reporters or journalists swarming all over. Friendly fire is going to happen either way, but only when these dipshits write about it does the public take notice.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » April 1, 2003, 5:52 am

It's all tragic. Yeah there will be friendly fire incidents in war but how come it's always the Americans hitting other people and not vice-versa?

I don't really want to pick over it though. I think it's a distasteful subject to argue over. But in this instance with the A10 I think some hard questions need to be asked. When you get strafed twice when showing all the required Anglo-US identification and flying the union jack something or someone has screwed up badly.

Phugg_Innay · Post by **Phugg_Innay** » April 1, 2003, 11:39 am

Lets see those who say this was an attrocity try to recognize their nieghbors car while going oh lets say about 175mph. The A-10 is a "slow aircraft" but still I believe its stall speed is around 150mph. Its not like they are ina Cesna doing 40mph over a target for 20 mins. Dont get me wrong here , if the pilot knew it was a "friendly" he should'nt have opened up on him , but gheez people , give it a rest. Would you rather have the "old world fighting" back in ? lets see just how accurate carpet bombing is. Just cruise a B52 at about 30k and drop your entire load (NON guided bombs) and see how the world would become outraged. This action is taking its best attempt to limit the callateral dmg. Shit will happen , after all we are JUST human. Its all part of war. The really sad part is for the next 2 weeks all we are going to hear about are the fucking peacnicks yelling and shouting that we are loosing lives for NO reason (when we enter Bagdad and the gorrilla fighting begins)
At least we are trying to fight a Fair fight , unlike the otherside which is using civilian populations as mortars, and firing on them from behind when they try to leave.
In my opinion (which I do not have all the facts from above on) the intrusion of the US and others was in bad taste , but at the same time something has to be done about this charecter and his tactics. The UN sure as hell wasnt going to do anything about it , that has been proven. Now what I do think is going to be questionable is the aftermath of the whole thing. Who will help rebuild the Govt , who will be the Puppet in place ? How will the rest of the Arab community react to a "peacefull govt" in Iraq ? Those are the questions that should really be answered.
enough drivle for me , just my 2c on what is going on. Forums are a place for both sides to be represented (and hopefully respected)

Phugg Innay
(I think the name speaks for itself)

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 11:52 am

Lets see those who say this was an attrocity try to recognize their nieghbors car while going oh lets say about 175mph. The A-10 is a "slow aircraft" but still I believe its stall speed is around 150mph.

I don't think anyone is accusing the pilot of intentionally firing on friendlies.

It's a matter of competence and accountability.
The A10 is equipped with sensors and pilots have vision enhancers. They can easily lock and id a target if they are going 500+ fucking mph.

I question if the US is properly training these pilots and if they are properly debrief before their flights.

Then there is the issue with stimulants and other drugs that the USAF allegedly encourages the use of by pilots. Do these substances impair judgement?

Would you rather have the "old world fighting" back in ? lets see just how accurate carpet bombing is. Just cruise a B52 at about 30k and drop your entire load (NON guided bombs) and see how the world would become outraged. This action is taking its best attempt to limit the callateral dmg.

What the fuck does carpet boming have to do with incompetent pilots?
Where is the correlation between irresponsibility and weapons technology?

Shit will happen , after all we are JUST human.

Human error is no excuse if the pilot chose not to use the proper tools to identify and verify his target. That's piss poor judgement, bad training and most likely a shitty/pompous attitude.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » April 1, 2003, 11:57 am

This makes me think of the movie Memphis Belle. There was a part where the co-pilot wanted to get some kills under his belt to impress the ladies back home, which had tragic results.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 1, 2003, 12:10 pm

And of course everyone posting was there to see what exactly transpired and knows exactly what happened. There are 3 sides to every story and you will never know for certain what the fuck caused something like this.

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 12:17 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:And of course everyone posting was there to see what exactly transpired and knows exactly what happened. There are 3 sides to every story and you will never know for certain what the fuck caused something like this.

They sure as fuck better launch an investigation as to what happened.

Unless the military tries to cover up what really happened and/or pass the buck (which is what will probably happen) there's no harm in discussing why incidents like this happen and what can be done to prevent the likelihood of it happening again.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » April 1, 2003, 12:47 pm

British soldiers are a pretty stoic bunch. If they're pissed off enough to be complaining about it publicly then it should raise eyebrows. There was hardly a peep out of them when 17 were killed in GW1.

And of course everyone posting was there to see what exactly transpired and knows exactly what happened. There are 3 sides to every story and you will never know for certain what the fuck caused something like this.

If you don't want to discuss it then fine. Not being an eye-witness does not preclude discussing the matter on the information available no matter how much it hurts your feelings.

Post by **Sylvus** » April 1, 2003, 2:37 pm

miir wrote:I question if the US is properly training these pilots and if they are properly debrief before their flights.

I think that's taking it a little overboard... Sensors or no, a judgement call has to be made every time, and unfortunately it was a bad one in this case. I don't know how well the sensors work, or what time of day it was, but a 12"x18" Union Jack might not be that easy to see. The guy might also be an incompetent or have some sort of emotional problems or be a horrible anglophobe, but I disagree that the US isn't properly training the pilots of their $13M aircraft. As horrible as it is to write off any human life, mistakes happen. The best doctor in the world (I'm not claiming he's American!) has screwed up a diagnosis before, Michael Jordan has made an in-game decision that has cost his team a victory, and the Canadians have lost to the US in hockey.

All bickering over whether or not we should be fighting this war aside, the United States has one of the most highly-skilled and highly-trained militaries in the world, and I believe it to be a priority for them to limit the loss of lives of people who aren't "the enemy". That includes all civillians, even Iraqis, as well as allied troops and enemy troops who are surrendering.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » April 1, 2003, 2:42 pm

Although friendly fire incidents are bound to happen in the heat of battle I can see that the vast majority of these recent incidents have been due to a lack of discipline and/or communication on behalf of the US forces. You have not read about US forces coming under friendly fire from their allies as these things don't seem to happen.

The incident in Afghanistan with Canadian forces being killed and the matter looks like it will be dismissed out of hand by the Military investigators.

The attack on the British forces talked about in this thread seems over the top to me. This was not a wild fire fight, in the darkness, with multiple enemies and friendlies in the same vicinity. Although I don't believe for an instant that this was intentional I do believe it was absolutely avoidable.

Gurugurumaki · Post by **Gurugurumaki** » April 1, 2003, 2:47 pm

Saw yesterday one of the British guys interviewed in a hospital. He said they were in Iraqi occupied territory, and recanted his previous statement about the gung-ho US army. I think he got caught up in losing his partners...which is understandable. I just think its really not what it appears.

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 2:52 pm

United States has one of the most highly-skilled and highly-trained militaries in the world

Are you saying that because it is what they tell you?

The United States certainly has the best equipped military in the world but incidents like this sort of makes you quesiton their skills and training.

He said they were in Iraqi occupied territory, and recanted his previous statement about the gung-ho US army

It was pretty obvious he was overly emotional when he made those statements but it still doesn't explain the actions of the American pilot.

Post by **Sylvus** » April 1, 2003, 3:06 pm

miir wrote:Are you saying that because it is what they tell you?

The United States certainly has the best equipped military in the world but incidents like this sort of makes you quesiton their skills and training.

Part of it is that they told me that, and then I weighed that information with what I have seen and things I've heard from people that I know who are part of the military and decided that I could go along with it. I then considered, say, an Iraqi conscript who was forced with his family at gunpoint to take up arms and fight the infidels. My assessment then was that US forces were more skilled and trained than those who didn't dedicate their lives to serving their country out of their own free will, but were merely more cannon fodder for a power-mad megalomaniac who has no qualms about killing his own people to remain in his position.

Perhaps I'm incorrect in that assessment, but I try not to take an isolated incident or two and make a gross generalization about it. That's just me though.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » April 1, 2003, 3:12 pm

I don't think the US military is particularly well trained. They are routinely outmanouvered by other NATO countries in mock battles and even the one that took place last year in the mock war that the US staged against itself showed how woefully unprepared they were for unconventional tactics. One of the american generals took out half a carrier group with a flotilla of 50 year old fishing boats he sent in on mock suicide missions.

I also look at some of the collosal fucking morons that post here and claim to have served in the us military. If they are a watermark for the quality of people in the armed forces I am actually quite amazed that the entire southern half of the united states hasn't been conquered by Cuba yet.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » April 1, 2003, 3:14 pm

In an army of 300,000 troops, there's going to be a group of stupid and ignorant people no matter how well they're trained.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 1, 2003, 3:23 pm

The U.S. special forces is where you will find our biggest strength. The other strength we have is our Air Force and Navy which have the best pilots in the world. The biggest weakness of the U.S. forces is that they are handcuffed by politicians and a population (as can be seen on here) that is too worried about playing "fair" in war. We adhere to strict rules and guidelines where those we are fighting do not. I blame it on the influence of the British on our tactics over the last 230 or so years.

Someday the gloves will end up coming off....but it may take an invasion of the U.S. before the public would not scream about us getting a little dirty.

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » April 1, 2003, 3:24 pm

We might not be the best trained for our numbers. But its not like we have lost any wars due to man-power. Political BS has caused us to pull out of some fights, but we never got creamed by anyone.

Edit: Yay me! Star!

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 3:36 pm

The U.S. special forces is where you will find our biggest strength. The other strength we have is our Air Force and Navy which have the best pilots in the world.

Israeli pilots are far more skilled and trained than US pilots.
Canadian snipers outshine the best American snipers.

What specific units of the US military have proven themselves to be the best of the best?

The US military lately seems like it relies too much on technology, brute force and superior numbers..... but I could be wrong, that's jsut my perception.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » April 1, 2003, 3:49 pm

miir wrote:
The U.S. special forces is where you will find our biggest strength. The other strength we have is our Air Force and Navy which have the best pilots in the world.
Israeli pilots are far more skilled and trained than US pilots.
Canadian snipers outshine the best American snipers.

What specific units of the US military have proven themselves to be the best of the best?

The US military lately seems like it relies too much on technology, brute force and superior numbers..... but I could be wrong, that's jsut my perception.

The Navy SEAL teams, Delta Force, and Marine Recon units would stick out in my mind. There are even further breakdowns in the specialties in some of those units that I am sure you are not aware of. Some of those SEAL teams spend a lot of time cross training with other elite units around the world like the SAS. If I had to pick one unit to perform a covert job anywhere in the world, I would pick the SEALs without even having a second thought.

If you were to say something about out general infantry being somewhat lacking, I might agree with you. The training they receive does not compare to what the special forces training consists of.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » April 1, 2003, 3:54 pm

I'd like to see proof of who is the "Best".

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 3:58 pm

SEAL teams are held in high regard by most militaries (and knowledgable civilians). Doubt you'll get much argument on that.

noel · Post by **noel** » April 1, 2003, 4:17 pm

miir wrote:SEAL teams are held in high regard by most militaries (and knowledgable civilians). Doubt you'll get much argument on that.

Actually the best of the best in the US armed forces is Delta Force. Delta recruits the cream of the crop from the SEALs, Force Recon, Green Berets, etc.

The SAS invented the game though, and often train with the aforementioned units.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » April 1, 2003, 4:23 pm

Israeli pilots are far more skilled and trained than US pilots.
Canadian snipers outshine the best American snipers.

Where are you getting this information? I check ESPN everyday and failed to see The Pilot and Sniper championship.

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 4:28 pm

My name is Cartalas the Dumbhole I don't know how to quote properly wrote:Where are you getting this information? I check ESPN everyday and failed to see The Pilot and Sniper championship.

hehe

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » April 1, 2003, 4:28 pm

miir wrote:
My name is Cartalas the Dumbhole I don't know how to quote properly wrote:Where are you getting this information? I check ESPN everyday and failed to see The Pilot and Sniper championship.
hehe

Hey you crazy Canadian I have been getting better.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » April 1, 2003, 4:50 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:I don't think the US military is particularly well trained. They are routinely outmanouvered by other NATO countries in mock battles and even the one that took place last year in the mock war that the US staged against itself showed how woefully unprepared they were for unconventional tactics. One of the american generals took out half a carrier group with a flotilla of 50 year old fishing boats he sent in on mock suicide missions.

I also look at some of the collosal fucking morons that post here and claim to have served in the us military. If they are a watermark for the quality of people in the armed forces I am actually quite amazed that the entire southern half of the united states hasn't been conquered by Cuba yet.

It's obvious to me that Kooky should be in Gen. Tommy Franks job... and Miir should be running the show from the White House.

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 4:52 pm

Tommy Franks is a gay name.

Where the fuck is Stormin' Norman?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » April 1, 2003, 4:55 pm

I can see the country now, Millions of dollars taken away from the defense of our country only to be given to the Homeless,and unwed mothers who have 10 kids. A country where doctors are forced to give free health care while there cars are being reposessed because noone pays them.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » April 1, 2003, 5:01 pm

Cartalas wrote:I can see the country now, Millions of dollars taken away from the defense of our country only to be given to the Homeless,and unwed mothers who have 10 kids. A country where doctors are forced to give free health care while there cars are being reposessed because noone pays them.

We wouldn't care Cart... we'd be laying around on welfare playing EQ...

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » April 1, 2003, 5:06 pm

Metanis wrote:
Cartalas wrote:I can see the country now, Millions of dollars taken away from the defense of our country only to be given to the Homeless,and unwed mothers who have 10 kids. A country where doctors are forced to give free health care while there cars are being reposessed because noone pays them.
We wouldn't care Cart... we'd be laying around on welfare playing EQ...

Holy Shit your right, War sucks Screw Bush <DING>

Post by **Sylvus** » April 1, 2003, 5:17 pm

miir wrote:Tommy Franks is a gay name.

Where the fuck is Stormin' Norman?

We'll have to coin a nickname for him then.

Hmm... Tommy "The Swami" Franks?

Or, going with the Stormin' Norman theme, how about "Tsunami" Tommy Franks?

miir · Post by **miir** » April 1, 2003, 5:20 pm

Sylvus wrote:
miir wrote:Tommy Franks is a gay name.

Where the fuck is Stormin' Norman?
We'll have to coin a nickname for him then.

Hmm... Tommy "The Swami" Franks?

Or, going with the Stormin' Norman theme, how about "Tsunami" Tommy Franks?

It's the 'Tommy' thing.
It just doesn't convey the right feeling... and it's one letter away from being TIMMY!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » April 1, 2003, 5:21 pm

miir wrote:
Sylvus wrote:
miir wrote:Tommy Franks is a gay name.

Where the fuck is Stormin' Norman?
We'll have to coin a nickname for him then.

Hmm... Tommy "The Swami" Franks?

Or, going with the Stormin' Norman theme, how about "Tsunami" Tommy Franks?
It's the 'Tommy' thing.
It just doesn't convey the right feeling... and it's one letter away from being TIMMY!

Or Tammy

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » April 1, 2003, 6:09 pm

Cartalas wrote:Where are you getting this information? I check ESPN everyday and failed to see The Pilot and Sniper championship.

There are quite a few international sniper competitions, and the Canadians routinely win. Although they didn't win in the most recent U.S. Army International Sniper Competition, I think they are regarded by most of the world as producing the best snipers. After all, they do hold the number 1 and 2 spots for longest range for a confirmed kill.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » April 1, 2003, 6:13 pm

Hoarmurath wrote:
Cartalas wrote:Where are you getting this information? I check ESPN everyday and failed to see The Pilot and Sniper championship.
There are quite a few international sniper competitions, and the Canadians routinely win. Although they didn't win in the most recent U.S. Army International Sniper Competition, I think they are regarded by most of the world as producing the best snipers. After all, they do hold the number 1 and 2 spots for longest range for a confirmed kill.

Must be the beer.