For the Canadians...

Pilsburry · Post by **Pilsburry** » March 24, 2003, 7:38 pm

Have you seen "Bowling for Columbine"? It's a documentary kinda by Micheal Moore.

He has a part in it where he questions why Americans have such a high rate of gun violence....keep in mind he is from Flint, Michigan...not from Canada.

Basically I heard him and many canadians discussing America's views on things in the middle section of the film....I think it's very similar to the views of a few canadian posters on the Vault. I agree with them.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 24, 2003, 8:08 pm

I dunno I mentioned this in the movie forum, but I don't know what he was getting at in that part about Canadians. I don't know any canucks that don't lock their doors.. He seems to try to connect gun violence with how secure people feel about their homes. I personally wouldn't go anywhere without locking my door up tight. Especially in the cities he was talking to people in where the crime rates are really high.. especially burglaries and car thefts that have little to do with gun violence.

Per capita more Canadians own firearms than Americans I've read. I own two firearms myself. Yet per capita the rate of firearms violence is something 8% of what it is in the states. It's pretty scary when you think about it, especially when the two cultures and standards of living are so close to each other.

Pilsburry · Post by **Pilsburry** » March 24, 2003, 10:22 pm

We promote fear and acts of violence on TV. And I don't mean movies and TV shows where you can look at it and say "that shits not real"...we do it on the news.

Only in america can you have so many people die because someone sprayed mace at a dance club to break up a fight. Why? Our media.

Also I think but I'm not sure how movies fit in, sure we have OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the same movies....but do you guys get the movies that promote street violence? Or just the ones where it's about a war or like say "hero" type movies?

You know like rap music about gang warfare.....and about being tough by putting a cap in someones ass when they piss you off.

FYI, I don't live in Canada...but my door is almost always unlocked. I wouldn't buy a home in an area I think I would get ripped off in. Also Mike Moore was talkign to people about the door being unlocked while the people are home....not while they are gone. As youw ill note by the 3-4 homes he walked into that were unlocked.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » March 25, 2003, 1:32 am

We promote fear and acts of violence on TV. And I don't mean movies and TV shows where you can look at it and say "that shits not real"...we do it on the news.

Any cable service I have seen in Canada carries the US networks from the same/similar time zones. CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox... even the WB. We also get CNN and CNN Headline. In Calgary, we get the Spokane affiliates in most cases.

Also I think but I'm not sure how movies fit in, sure we have OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the same movies....but do you guys get the movies that promote street violence? Or just the ones where it's about a war or like say "hero" type movies?

We get pretty much what you do in the theatres. Name some of the films you're thinking of and we can confirm.

You know like rap music about gang warfare.....and about being tough by putting a cap in someones ass when they piss you off.

I don't think the racial tensions in Canada are/have been as high as in parts of the US, so while some of our youth listen to this music, not a lot can identify with it. I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist up here but the tensions aren't as pronounced.

As far as the door locking thing goes, I live in a pretty decent neighbourhood. There are the odd times (i.e. get pretty shitfaced with some friends BBQing the back yard or some such) where I forget to lock my door, at night or when gone, but as a habit I do. Same with the vehicle. My parents live on an acreage outside a small town (approx 6-7000 people) and always locked thier doors when in that town and out on the acreage. As for when we are home, generally I do leave the door unlocked, as do a lot of people I know (most family and friends).

We don't have as much violent crime per capita, and some people claim its linked to the hand gun restrictions up here (the firearms most Canadians own are hunting rifles/shotguns: hand guns are very tightly regulated). They are also trying to clamp down on hunting weapons by instituting a national registry, but many people, esp in my part of the country, view it as a farce without purpose and have refused to comply with registering, thus becoming criminals (/rude to moronic fuckhead Alan Rock).

Some people, like my boss, claim that there is more of cultural distinction than is apparent by viewing our seperate media and to me that is quite plausible, but I tend to think the distinctions run N-S as well as E-W. The politics, views and ways of life differ quite radically across Canada, as I am sure they do across the USA.

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » March 25, 2003, 2:24 am

Shame on you Mr Bush!

And yes, ive seen the movie, the NRA is about as fucked up as it gets.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » March 25, 2003, 11:46 am

Does anyone have any hard data about the amount of single parent households in Canada vs the U.S.? Most of the violence in the U.S. is due to the lack of discipline by parents over the last 20 years. you just did not have the same shit happening 20 and 30 years ago because there were 2 parents and you could actually discipline a child without a visit by the police and child services. "Time outs" do not work like a good old fashioned switch on the ass.

Slansin · Post by **Slansin** » March 25, 2003, 1:25 pm

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

The above site does a very good job of picking apart Bowling for Columbine.

This exerpt is relevant here:

Fact: Canada is hardly comparable to the far more urbanized United States. Violence rates correlate strongly to population density. Canada has about 3.3 persons per square kilometer; the U.S. about 29.1. Now, to be fair, a lot of that is unpopulated -- although the US has largely unpopulated areas as well (I live in an urban area of 600,000, but can name some major highways near here where you can drive a hundred miles and see five or ten houses.).

Fact: Let's look at US States closest to Canada. In 2001 (the most recent year for which FBI data are available State by State) the nine American states with land borders contiguous to Canada had an average homicide rate of 2.2 per 100,000 persons, far less than the rest of the US and not much above Canada's 1.8 rate. North Dakota, with a population density almost identical to that of Canada (3.5/sq. km.), had a homicide rate of 1.1, lower than that of Canada.

I guess when all the statisticians and experts on the subject of violent crime disagree with him, the only way he could get the sound bites he needed was to ask average layman Joe Canuck for his uninformed opinion.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 25, 2003, 1:31 pm

What the fuck does population density have to due with murder rate per capita?

Pilsburry · Post by **Pilsburry** » March 25, 2003, 1:47 pm

Any cable service I have seen in Canada carries the US networks from the same/similar time zones. CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox... even the WB. We also get CNN and CNN Headline. In Calgary, we get the Spokane affiliates in most cases.

Yes, but you guys get the advantage of being able to go "crazy fucking americans"

Some people, like my boss, claim that there is more of cultural distinction than is apparent by viewing our seperate media and to me that is quite plausible, but I tend to think the distinctions run N-S as well as E-W. The politics, views and ways of life differ quite radically across Canada, as I am sure they do across the USA.

I've lived East Coast, Midwest, and South...not West Coast tho... Kentucky, Ohio, Conneticut, Michigan, Georgia...spent maybe a year of my life in Maderia Beach, Florida and another year in Littleton, Colorado...same location every time for those 2 places, but not a permanent residence. I can tell you there is a definate distinction between people living in those regions. I can't just pick people out after 5 minutes and tell they aren't from around here, but over time you can tell the townies from the transfers.

I think it has a lot to do with weather, people in regions where it's the norm to go out on the water are usually more laid back and social. Like Michigan is more laid back then Ohio...people know thier neighbors more up in michigan...and in a friendly way...people in Ohio and Kentucky will know thier neighbors but they won't talk to them much.

Maybe Canada has less violence because it's too cold to go out and have a conflict in the streets hehe. And the people are more spread out. That probably prevents a lot of "gang violence" although shooting the man who fucked your wife would still be plausible...which doesn't seem to happen in Canada.

Slansin · Post by **Slansin** » March 25, 2003, 1:49 pm

Just the start of a simple google search:

http://www.iuscrim.mpg.de/forsch/online ... manual.pdf

http://www.popinfo.org/issues/econ04.htm

http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cj/cjl21297.htm

But you mis-read the data. The murder "rate" Moore uses in the film isn't per capita. It's murders per square kilometer. But yeah, I guess cramming 10 times as many people in that square kilometer won't effect the murder rate at all.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 25, 2003, 1:54 pm

Per 100k here's the murder rate in some major urban areas in the US and Canada:

Washington DC - 46.4
Detroit - 42.6
Chicago - 22.7
Philadelphia - 20.3
NYC - 8.9
Montreal - 2.9
Toronto - 1.0

Relative population:

Washington DC - 600k
Detroit - 4.2 million
Chicago - 2.8 million
Philadelphia - 1.7 million
NYC - 7.3 mil
Montreal - 3.2 million
Toronto - 4.4 million

miir · Post by **miir** » March 25, 2003, 2:03 pm

Maybe Canada has less violence because it's too cold to go out and have a conflict in the streets hehe. And the people are more spread out. That probably prevents a lot of "gang violence" although shooting the man who fucked your wife would still be plausible...which doesn't seem to happen in Canada.

Your ignorance of Canada is pretty embarrasing.

Canada has urban areas like the US.
Canada has rural areas like the US.

The most densely populated areas of Canada are south of Minnesota.
The temperature norms and snowfall per annum in Toronto are near identical to NYC or Philly.

I live in an urban center of more than 4 million people.... people are not exactly 'spread out' here.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 25, 2003, 2:09 pm

Slansin wrote: But you mis-read the data. The murder "rate" Moore uses in the film isn't per capita. It's murders per square kilometer. But yeah, I guess cramming 10 times as many people in that square kilometer won't effect the murder rate at all.

Michael Moore obviously wiggled the numbers around to suit his needs.
It's pretty easy to poke holes in his 'facts', but the point is that he makes you think... his statements are meant to shock.... you're compelled to track down the 'real' information for yourself.

The same deal if you try to disprove his statements with biased information.

Look at the figures I posted.

If population density is such a big factor, why does DC have such an astronomical murder rate when compared to NYC?

Chicago has very similar population density to Toronto yet the murder rate is TWENTY times higher.

While I concede that population does play a part in murder rate, it's impossible to deny that the murder rate in the USA is inordinately high when compared to Canada.

Post by **Sylvus** » March 25, 2003, 2:12 pm

miir wrote:Per 100k here's the murder rate in some major urban areas in the US and Canada:

Washington DC - 46.4
Detroit - 42.6

I can't believe DC is beating us, we've really got to try harder this year.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » March 25, 2003, 2:17 pm

I can't believe DC is beating us, we've really got to try harder this year.

haha

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 25, 2003, 2:56 pm

Slansin wrote:http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

The above site does a very good job of picking apart Bowling for Columbine.

This exerpt is relevant here:

Fact: Canada is hardly comparable to the far more urbanized United States. Violence rates correlate strongly to population density. Canada has about 3.3 persons per square kilometer; the U.S. about 29.1. Now, to be fair, a lot of that is unpopulated -- although the US has largely unpopulated areas as well (I live in an urban area of 600,000, but can name some major highways near here where you can drive a hundred miles and see five or ten houses.).

Fact: Let's look at US States closest to Canada. In 2001 (the most recent year for which FBI data are available State by State) the nine American states with land borders contiguous to Canada had an average homicide rate of 2.2 per 100,000 persons, far less than the rest of the US and not much above Canada's 1.8 rate. North Dakota, with a population density almost identical to that of Canada (3.5/sq. km.), had a homicide rate of 1.1, lower than that of Canada.

Irrelevent. Even in large racially diverse cities in Canada gun violence is comparably much lower.

Slansin · Post by **Slansin** » March 25, 2003, 2:59 pm

You're still twisting the issue.

This isn't about murder rate:population total.

It's violent crime:population density.

The link I provided dealt with this. It compared US cities with similar populations and population densities to ones in Canada. The crime rates came out pretty damn equal, if not less.

The comparisons Moore was using are like comparing NYC crime rate to that of St. Paul, MN. NYC has more crime? WHO'DATHOUGHT?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 25, 2003, 2:59 pm

Sylvus wrote:I can't believe DC is beating us, we've really got to try harder this year.

Don't worry Detroit is still #1 for murders altogether, beating out LA with almost 3x the population.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 25, 2003, 3:00 pm

Slansin wrote:You're still twisting the issue.

This isn't about murder rate:population total.

It's violent crime:population density.

The link I provided dealt with this. It compared US cities with similar populations and population densities to ones in Canada. The crime rates came out pretty damn equal, if not less.

The comparisons Moore was using are like comparing NYC crime rate to that of St. Paul, MN. NYC has more crime? WHO'DATHOUGHT?

who gives a fuck about crime rate.

GUN.
VIOLENCE.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » March 25, 2003, 3:01 pm

Population density plays a part in abberant behavior period, not just murder.

It's an intersting question though. Why are the rates in Canada so much lower? What can we (the US) learn/do differently?

Slansin · Post by **Slansin** » March 25, 2003, 3:16 pm

Maybe I should have posted the whole thing, since nobody seems to have bothered to read the link.

Fact: The Canada-contiguous States would have a far lower rate than Canada, except that they include New York. New York is a special case; most of its homicides occur in the densely urbanized southeast part of the State. Six New York counties border on Canada (Clinton, Franklin, St. Lawrence, Niagra, Jefferson and Erie), and FBI reports data for five (Where Erie went I have no idea). In 2001 four of the five New York counties contiguous to Canada had no homicides at all, and the last, Jefferson County, had exactly one. Two of the NY counties also reported no, zero, thefts for the year.

Just looking at cities, in Canada and US States near to Canada: Canadian city homicide rates: Toronto 1; Montreal 3; Winnipeg 3; Windsor 4 (source). US city homicide rates: Madison WI 1.4; Minneapolis 2.6; Bismarck ND 0 (not a typo, zero); Boise 2; Duluth 2 Portland ME 1.2 (source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2001).

Fact: If Bowling wanted to find areas where doors can be left unlocked, it did not need to go to Canada. 85% of U.S. counties reported no (as in zero) youth homicides in 1997; in any given year, about a third of them will report no homicides at all. In large expanses of the US, homicide is almost unknown. Showing doors open proves little. I spent nine years in a suburb of Washington DC, when it was the murder capital of the country, and never locked doors when I was awake. Why? Because I lived in a part of that urban area where the total crime in nine years consisted of one burglary. The entire area may have been violence-ridden, but portions of it were quite placid.

Apples and Oranges. Take highly-dense, "crime-ridden" US cities out of the comparison, and instead use US and Canadian cities with similar populations & densities: lo and behold, Canada and the US come out even.

And read the goddamn link. Skewing statistics isn't the worst thing Moore did in his "documentary." How a propaganda piece filled with edited NRA speeches, misrepresentations, and blatant lies could be classified as a factual, objective "Documentary" is beyond me.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 25, 2003, 3:19 pm

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » March 25, 2003, 4:45 pm

Slansin wrote:How a propaganda piece filled with edited speeches, misrepresentations, and blatant lies could be classified as a factual, objective "Documentary" is beyond me.

OMG!! Did Michael Moore interview Michael Jackson too??`

Shaerra · Post by **Shaerra** » March 25, 2003, 5:02 pm

I read the link and found it very interesting. I agree that Bowling for Columbine should not have won an Oscar for "Documentary".

I also went to some of the other sites, criticizing the staged situations and outright lies contained in the film. Interesting to find out that he staged the scene where the bank handed him a rifle after he opened an account there. Also interesting that he cut and pasted different Heston speeches from different days in different locations to make his own "Heston is a jerk" speech. Oh, and how he omitted all of the compassionate statements from the speeches. Interesting to see that he staged the ammunition buy in Canada. Interesting that he faked the Election "Horton" commercial. Interesting to read what was printed in the Wall Street Journal:

In print, too, Mr. Moore plays fast and loose with the facts. In his "Stupid White Men," his best-selling book, he blithely states that five-sixths of the U.S. defense budget in 2001 went toward the construction of a single type of plane and that two-thirds of the $190 million that President Bush raised in his 2000 campaign came from just over 700 individuals, a preposterous assertion given that the limit for individual contributions at the time was $1,000.
When CNN's Lou Dobbs asked Mr. Moore about his inaccuracies, he shrugged off the quesiton. "You know, look, this is a book of political humor. So, I mean, I don't respond to that sort of stuff, you know," he said.

"Glaring inaccuracies?" Mr. Dobbs said.

"No, I don't. Why should I? How can there be inaccuracy in comedy?"

Mr. Moore would deserve an Academy Award if there were an Oscar for Best Cinematic Con Job. If "Bowling for Columbine" is a comedy, most of its fans don't know it. They actually believe they're watching something that is in rough accord with reality.

Pilsburry · Post by **Pilsburry** » March 25, 2003, 5:14 pm

I'm not saying population density and weather are the only two factors, but I think they are definate factors.

I mean there are of course other factors, like perhaps how accpeted it is, how often we convict the perp and how long thier jail sentence is compared to yours.....our justice system is fucked and I wouldn't be suprised if people do it because they are less afraid of being caught.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » March 25, 2003, 5:14 pm

I don't lock my doors. Girlfriend does but I don't worry too much about it. When she's not here, come on in. Beers in the fridge, get me one too.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2003, 5:46 pm

TeurdeCT wrote:I don't lock my doors. Girlfriend does but I don't worry too much about it. When she's not here, come on in. Beers in the fridge, get me one too.

Don't Newfs have to travel a few days before running into another newf? I picture a frozen tundra wasteland with constant blizzards.
No need to lock doors!

Hey, have you heard from Rianna yet Teurde? He's been in the states a few days. I'm hoping he doesn't get mugged before I get there Friday and can teach him street survival tactics for the U.S. experience

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 25, 2003, 6:20 pm

lol because canadidiaa is an arctic wasteland hahaha my name is winnow and im a stupid fucking moron that knows one joke

Shaerra · Post by **Shaerra** » March 25, 2003, 6:53 pm

haha So easy to bait.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » March 25, 2003, 7:31 pm

Apples and Oranges. Take highly-dense, "crime-ridden" US cities out of the comparison, and instead use US and Canadian cities with similar populations & densities: lo and behold, Canada and the US come out even.

If you can show some cities population densities, feel free and prove your point. As far as populations go Slansin, please look back at Miir's post, because either you missed it or you need to learn to read.

As you can see Montreal is roughly equal to Chicago (murder rates 2.9 to 22.7) in total population and Toronto is roughly equivalent to Detroit (1.0 to 42.6). In the interests of accuracy it would be cool if Mirr could post a source for these numbers. I have no doubt that density would play a part, but I really don't believe *there is enough of a discrepancy to account for the differences in the murder rate*: I haven't been to Montreal or Detroit but I have been to Toronto (one day I'll recover... ugh... Leaf fans *shiver*) and Chicago to form some general (although entirely subjective) impressions.

Edit:clarification inside atsterisks

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 25, 2003, 7:51 pm

Shaerra wrote:haha So easy to bait.

says who? oh the dumb cunt who is responsible for about 700 trillion 10 page threads all calling you a stupid shithead.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » March 25, 2003, 8:09 pm

I dunno, there's just something about a woman who says cunt that makes me shed a tear.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2003, 8:41 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:lol because canadidiaa is an arctic wasteland hahaha my name is winnow and im a stupid fucking moron that knows one joke

WTF are you talking about! This is totally different! I mentioned nothing about sled dogs or igloos.

bow wow wow yippie yo yippie yea

Xaem · Post by **Xaem** » March 26, 2003, 12:33 am

It isnt even a real country, anyway.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 26, 2003, 12:59 am

kyoukan type-R wrote:
Shaerra wrote:haha So easy to bait.
says who? oh the dumb cunt who is responsible for about 700 trillion 10 page threads all calling you a stupid shithead.

OH LOOK SHAERRA YOU CAUGHT YOURSELF A STUPID SHITHEAD HAHAH!!!!!

miir · Post by **miir** » March 26, 2003, 11:56 am

Just looking at cities, in Canada and US States near to Canada: Canadian city homicide rates: Toronto 1; Montreal 3; Winnipeg 3; Windsor 4 (source). US city homicide rates: Madison WI 1.4; Minneapolis 2.6; Bismarck ND 0 (not a typo, zero); Boise 2; Duluth 2 Portland ME 1.2 (source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports 2001).

What the fuck is this?

Toronto - 4.4m
Montreal - 3.2m
Winnepeg - 630k
Windsor 270k

The only city you listed that is bigger than Windsor is Minneapolis at 370k.

I don't see what point that's trying to proove.
You can't compare the murder rate of little fucking villages like Bismarck and Portland to major urban sprawls like Toronto and Montreal.

Boise - 185k
Bismarck - 55k
Madisn - 213k
Portland - 65k
Duluth - 87k

You certainly cant be using those facts to illustrate the muder rate and proximity to Canada because Detroit, which is walking distance to Canada has one of the highest murder rates in the USA.

Or maybe Buffalo with their 300k population and thier murder rate of 22.

St Paul has a murder rate of 3.2 and at 275k it's about 40% the size of Winnepeg... Its closest canadian neighbour and Canada's murder capital.

Albany (6.3 - 95k) and Syracuse (10.2 - 145k) are a stones throw away from the capital of Canada which has a whopping murder rate of 1 and population of 830k.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 26, 2003, 12:01 pm

In the interests of accuracy it would be cool if Mirr could post a source for these numbers

My population data was gleaned from USA and Canada census.
My murder rate data was gleaned from sites using FBI data and from various Canadian sites.

Easy enough to find yourself.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 26, 2003, 12:07 pm

Canada's murder capital :

Winnepeg MB - 3.0
Population 630k

USA murder capital :

Gary In - 79.4
Population - 630k

Windsor has 1/5 the population of of Detroit yet has 1/100 of number of murders. Look at the geographical proximity of those 2 cities.

Zygar_ Cthulhukin · Post by **Zygar_ Cthulhukin** » March 26, 2003, 12:10 pm

Let's just send all those assault rifles and other banned weapons up north. We need to even things out!

Mezzmor · Post by **Mezzmor** » March 26, 2003, 12:25 pm

I would be interested to know a couple of things about Canada if Kyou could help me out.

% of Single-parents
% of single-income families (in other words, how many mothers stay home and actually raise their kids)

I am almost certain the answer lies in there somewhere.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » March 26, 2003, 12:34 pm

Interesting points.

1. I grew up in Flint, Michigan and I can state categorically that Michael Moore is full of shit, he had to hire actors, buy rabbits at a pet shop, ignore real time lines and reinvent his own, etc to do what he did to the city. He consistantly attacks things, then when called to task on his inaccuracies calls them humour.

2. You know you would think Miami or LA would be the murder capitols based on reputation, but have you ever noticed that places it gets cold tend to win a LOT, have to wonder if cold does not have a negative effect on people, after all, look at Kyoukan.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 26, 2003, 12:43 pm

Mezzmor wrote:I would be interested to know a couple of things about Canada if Kyou could help me out.

% of Single-parents
% of single-income families (in other words, how many mothers stay home and actually raise their kids)

I am almost certain the answer lies in there somewhere.

I would tend to think it pertains more to the poverty line, and/or the illegal drug trade. IIRC most murders in the USA are drug/gang related.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 26, 2003, 12:56 pm

Kylere wrote:2. You know you would think Miami or LA would be the murder capitols based on reputation, but have you ever noticed that places it gets cold tend to win a LOT, have to wonder if cold does not have a negative effect on people, after all, look at Kyoukan.

2) Compton CA : 48.3
3) New Orleans LA : 44.0
10) Atlanta GA : 33.8
11) Inglewood CA : 33.1
15) Birmingham AL : 29.9
16) Jackson MS : 27.0

Top Florida city for murder is, surprisingly, West Palm Beach @ 21.4.
Miami is way down the list at number 128 with 6.7 (very close to the national average).

1. I grew up in Flint, Michigan and I can state categorically that Michael Moore is full of shit

Flint MI has an astronomical murder rate.
32.6 for a city of 125k is mind boggling.

Interesting that there are several small towns in the top 20 murder rate rankings.

5) Youngstown OH ( 85k, 41.1)
9) Richmond VA ( 200k, 35.8 )
11) Inglewood ( 112k, 33.1)
12) Flint ( 125k, 32.6 )

Post by **Sylvus** » March 26, 2003, 1:30 pm

miir wrote:Canada's murder capital :
Windsor has 1/5 the population of of Detroit yet has 1/100 of number of murders. Look at the geographical proximity of those 2 cities.

I think we all know the reason why Windsor has less murders: Legal Prostitution.

But seriously, I'm wondering how much better public schools are in Canada and if that has something to do with it. As far as your straight homicides go, I think the more intelligent a populace the less apt they are to go around killing each other in a wanton manner. I'd also like to see the per capita incomes of the two cities, or any cities on either list. I think you'd probably find a lot less money in Gary, Indiana than in Winnipeg.

Of course, these are completely just my gut feelings, I have no hard facts to back them up.

Maddux · Post by **Maddux** » March 26, 2003, 1:33 pm

USA Population - 281 Million
Canada Population - 31 Million

Land Area (Sq Km)

Canada - 9.22 Million
USA - 9.16 Million

The Murder Rate's for USA and Canada ( I couldnt find this years numbers, I did a quick Google. So Didnt try)

USA - 6.8
Canada - 1.8

So basically we cram 250 million more people into the same space. There will definately be more violence.

What shocked me is that the unemployment rate for Canada is higher then the US. 7 percent as opposed to the US 5 percent. But that really shouldnt come as a shock, just look at the VV top posters. They seem to be Canadian, I wonder how they have so much free time

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 26, 2003, 1:41 pm

Does anyone have the numbers on "snap decision" murders? Where someone just loses it, pulls and gun and kills someone?

This is one of my reservations about gun ownership. A flash of rage and someone can die in an instant if you're armed. If you have to go and find a handy weapon it gives you time to cool off and if you're only armed with your fists it's not usually going to be fatal.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 26, 2003, 1:56 pm

So basically we cram 250 million more people into the same space. There will definately be more violence

That's based on the false presumption that the population is evenly distributed across the entire area of each country.

You simply cannot ignore regional population density if you wish to make a valid point or be taken seriously.

Look at the figures I posted.

There are no comparisons of murder rate per square kilometer.
There are HUGE areas of Canada that have zero population... I'm talking thousands of square kilometers.

Youngtown Ohio is a little fucking village of 85k people yet it has a total muder count close to that of a Canadian metropolis of over 4 million.

Toronto is densely populated.
Not quite as dense as NYC but more dense than Chicago IL.

I can find (literally, no exaggeration) hundreds of examples of small, lightly populated (under 200k) cities and towns in the USA that have a higher murder rate than densely populated Canadian cities with a population over a half million .

There is some value to the arguement that more densely populated areas will generally have a higher murder rate... but you are incorrectly trying to use that to compare country to country.
I've presented facts that similar density areas in the USA have noticeably higher (in some cases over 4000% higher) murder rates than comparable cities in Canada.

Gurugurumaki · Post by **Gurugurumaki** » March 26, 2003, 2:02 pm

miir wrote: Youngtown Ohio is a little fucking village of 85k people yet it has a total muder count close to that of a Canadian metropolis of over 4 million.

Youngstown is teh SUCK

miir · Post by **miir** » March 26, 2003, 2:13 pm

Gurugurumaki wrote:
Youngstown is teh SUCK

Youngstown is teh swallow.

Pilsburry · Post by **Pilsburry** » March 26, 2003, 2:36 pm

vn_Tanc wrote:Does anyone have the numbers on "snap decision" murders? Where someone just loses it, pulls and gun and kills someone?

This is one of my reservations about gun ownership. A flash of rage and someone can die in an instant if you're armed. If you have to go and find a handy weapon it gives you time to cool off and if you're only armed with your fists it's not usually going to be fatal.

This is why I choose to rent a gun at a gun range rather then purchase one for myself.

However I must state that very rarely is someones most leathal weapon handy his fists...you can always find a chair, a beer bottle, a steak knife or a fork...even a pencil/pen. An unopened can of coke can be used to crush a mans skull...you probably all have a opened can of soda on your desk right now right? That means there are unopened ones likely close by.

I remember a few years back a neighboring town had some man get killed by a robber, with like a can of corn. Also in a movie with Shawn Penn he was in jail and he put a few soda's in a pillowcase and beat the shit out of a larger guy.

People just don't think of everyday items as weapons...but they are.