The Powell and Bush comedy show

[Swiiter]

If in 6 months or 2 years from now, we can finally pull out of Iraq, pull out of Saudi, close the doors on the Operation Southern/Northern Watches... then it will be worth it. Doing nothing, cannot be an option.

In all likelihood U.S. occupation will increase in Iraq if we are successful in toppling the Hussein Regime. The U.S. will set up an ad hoc government in Iraq and I assure you that U.S. troops will maintain presence in Iraq for more than 6 months to 2 years. Not to mention this war is going to increase the anti-us sentiment among Muslims and U.S troops (as well as our home front) will be the targeted with a much higher frequency of terrorist attacks.

[masteen]

It's the closest thing to democracy in any middle eastern country

On paper, maybe. But Iraq hasn't ever had a truly free election, and they have NO method of giving feedback to their government. The Saudis may be a monarchy, but they have a long tradition of interacting and listening to their people.

[vn_Tanc]

So if he said support the American people, it wouldn't mean the American regime(American government)????

Seeing as this got quoted and thus bypassed the STFU that has kept my life blissfully free of your worthless rambling, allow me to retort.

I strongly disagree with the US regime as it stands right now and will not support it.
I have no problem with 90% of the US citizens I've met in my time. They've largely been fine individuals.

See the difference?

Just to clarify:
Iraqi citizen = muslim = osama liek!
Iraqi regime = secular (ie not islamist and thought of as an "apostate regime" by Bin Laden) = osama no liek!

Run along now I think American Gladiators is on TV.

[Gurugurumaki]

What!!!! American Gradiators is in syndications, ohh prease terl me more!

[Lalanae]

Your type hates true freedom, you hate religion, you hate conservatism, you hate George Bush, you hate the free exchange of ideas.

Anyone else see the contradiction in lumping religion with "freedom" and "free exchange of ideas." lol

[Voronwë]

Iraqi people dont want to be liberated

actually yes they do. Iraq is no closer to a democracy than Saudi Arabia. Any suggestion to the contrary is a joke. The only difference between Iraq and Saudi Arabia (in this regard) is that they conduct farcical elections in Iraq.

i understand the sentiment that saying, "well if your motives are truly humanitarian (ie liberating Iraq), then why not Nigeria, China, etc etc etc".

well it isnt so black and white. If you choose to liberate one country, that does not mean you are obligated to liberate all countries, or even obligated to liberate the "worst" countries. to simplify, if i donate to one charity, should i be required to donate a like sum to all charities? that oversimplifies it, but i think the point is valid nonetheless.

what makes Iraq different from North Korea, China, Nigeria, etc. Those other countries are not in violation of a surrender agreement with the United Nations that follows military action on their part.

Regardless, this is not a purely altruistic action. Let's not be naive and get lost on that tangent. If the West can install a capitalist democracy in Iraq that they can get sizeable investment in, it is in the long term tactical interests of the West.

Our economies are easily manipulated by OPEC setting prices, and the more $$ that are in place locally over oil fields, this acts as a stabilizing influence.

But in this case it isnt pure naked agression.

Iraq is a country that invaded another.
The UN responded in 1991, leading to Iraqi surrender.
The UN dictated terms of an agreement that Iraq must comply to as terms of this surrender.
Iraq has repeatedly violated this agreement.

That in concert with the fact that the government of Iraq does not act in the interest of its people, posseses substantial tactical importance, and is most likely continueing to work on biological, chemical, and possibly nuclear weapons, makes the argument for war.

i do think the security council is in danger of losing some (but hardly all) credibility here. I think NATO denying Turkey's request is a disgrace.

[Metanis]

Your type hates true freedom, you hate religion, you hate conservatism, you hate George Bush, you hate the free exchange of ideas.

Anyone else see the contradiction in lumping religion with "freedom" and "free exchange of ideas." lol

Please read my statement again... especially the "Your type". I'm pointing out that the "true believers" who are whipping up the anti-war sentiment seem to have a fanatical hatred of anything Christian.

I'm saying that many folks like Acies are "tools" being led around by people who have a strong anti-US agenda. It's no secret that some of the organizers of anti-war protests have been communists.

I'm saying that there are many people who hate Conservatism MORE than they hate injustice and oppression in the world.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Run along now I think American Gladiators is on TV.

Me loves American Gladiators!

[miir]

I'm pointing out that the "true believers" who are whipping up the anti-war sentiment seem to have a fanatical hatred of anything Christian

Wow, thats pretty fucked up.

On your next post could you lump in some more religions and races with your broad generalizations?

Me loves American Gladiators!

Who doesn't?

[Voronwë]

please dont talk about pinko commies.

only people over 60 should be easily scared by "communists are behind this" propaganda. please step back before it is too late.

i remember listening ot Rush Limbaugh in 1997 when he said "environmentalism is the last bastion of communism in America".

i think that statement summarizes the stupidity of a large segment of his audience. People who are willing to believe anything Rush says, and people desperate to have somebody waiving Ronny's flag against the "Evil Empire"....especially when no Evil Empire existed anymore.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

So if he said support the American people, it wouldn't mean the American regime(American government)????

Dumb ass!

You need to learn more about religion and politics in the middle east.

It's not that Miir. I was amused at his instant knowledge of the intermind of Osama, and how he knew exactly what Osama meant. His "obvious" interpretation of Osama's statement, is laughable. To "assume" what he meant is dumb in my opinion. I took that as him coming to Osama's defense and trying to give him a good side. He deserves no such thing.

[Voronwë]

Bin Laden pretty much made the distinction clearly. Bin Laden is not going to voice support for the Iraqi regime, but he will use any war that is waged against that regime as political capital with borderline sympathizers to further his Anti-American agenda.
=

It doesn't matter whether the socialist (Baath) party or Saddam disappear....And it doesn't harm in these conditions the interest of Muslims to agree with those of the socialists in fighting against the crusaders, even though we believe the socialists are infidels. For the socialists and the rulers have lost their legitimacy a long time ago, and the socialists are infidels regardless of where they are, whether in Baghdad or in Aden. .

[Lalanae]

Every place I've worked, there is always one guy who is a Rush Limbaugh fan. They are always the doofiest guys in the company too.

The guy in the next cube over is my company's "Rush" guy and it sickens me the stuff he spouts, the total ignarance. Not that he got this from Rush, but one day we were talking about video games and he said "I just hate all the demonology in games these days." I said something to the effect of well, its not real... and he said "What? You don't believe in demons?" OMG he was serious and left shaking his head as if I was unfortunate to not know that there are demons about! Just one example of what a moron he is...

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I stand corrected Voro. Thank ye.

My apologies Vn.

[Metanis]

please dont talk about pinko commies.

Lest we forget, communism as an ideology is still alive and kicking. Let's also not forget that this ideology has resulted in more loss of human life and misery than any other in history. Don't take my word for it, take a stroll back through the history of the 20th century. Stalin alone killed more Russians than died in all of WWII. Don't even think about China's killing of infants in the last 40 years.

Do you recognize that much of the anti-war protest is just anti-US sentiment? It's fine to be anti-US, but why not be a little more anti-Saddam?

[miir]

Do you recognize that much of the anti-war protest is just anti-US sentiment? It's fine to be anti-US, but why not be a little more anti-Saddam?

No, the lunacy of Dubya, the alterior motives and the pathetic attempts at propaganda are mostly responsible for the anti war sentiment.

Since the USA is the main force pushing for an invasion of Iraq, what do you expect?



Bush is coming off as a gung ho, texan, warmonger with an itchy trigger finger. He's so obsessed with invading Iraq that everyone knows it's just a matter of time.
Notice the look of primal rage in Powel's eyes and the scowl on his face whenever he talks about Iraq/Saddam.

These 2 fella's are making Saddam look like the victim here.

It's clear that they don't want to 'disarm' Iraq....

They act like they want to bomb the living fuck out of the entire country and until Saddam is dead.

War has never been an acceptable vehicle for personal vendettas.

[Metanis]

Lest we forget, communism as an ideology is still alive and kicking. Let's also not forget that this ideology has resulted in more loss of human life and misery than any other in history. Don't take my word for it, take a stroll back through the history of the 20th century. Stalin alone killed more Russians than died in all of WWII. Don't even think about China's killing of infants in the last 40 years.

Do you recognize that much of the anti-war protest is just anti-US sentiment? It's fine to be anti-US, but why not be a little more anti-Saddam?

That is so completely idiotic on so many different levels, I don't even know where to begin....

Miir, if you were a tool you'd be one of those really cheap Chinese-made Phillips screwdrivers. You know the type, the hard skinny little handles that don't allow a grip but get gouged easily so they rip your hands. The type with the business end made out of tin foil so it bends and strips easily. The type where the angles on the tip are too sharp to actually get a purchase on a screw head. The type that get's relegated to the back of the 4th drawer deep behind piles of leftover string and other junk. The type that fills in for a punch because you know it ain't worth a shit as a screwdriver.

Hand me that hammer, please...

[miir]

OMG YUO PWNED ME!!!!!1

[Forthe]

Vn_Tanc wrote:

You're not confusing that with the Bin Laden tape are you? Asking them to support the "Iraqi People" (note NOT the Iraqi regime).

So if he said support the American people, it wouldn't mean the American regime(American government)????

Dumb ass!

Regardless of the removal or the survival of the socialist party or Saddam, Muslims in general and the Iraqis in particular must brace themselves for jihad against this unjust campaign and acquire ammunition and weapons.

Under these circumstances, there will be no harm if the interests of Muslims converge with the interests of the socialists in the fight against the crusaders, despite our belief in the infidelity of socialists.

The jurisdiction of the socialists and those rulers has fallen a long time ago.

Socialists are infidels wherever they are, whether they are in Baghdad or Aden.

In case you get confused Midnyte "Socialist Infidel" is not a good thing. He also called Sadam a Socialist Infidel in interview given in 1987.

[noel]

Metanis, coudl you please explain what the fuck your last two posts have to do with this topic?

Miir is pwning you because he's y'know... sticking to the subject at hand?

[Brotha]

In Bizarro World, bin Laden encouraging Iraqis to martyr themselves and defend themselves against the Americans equates to Saddam Hussein having close links with Al Qaeda.


Why the fuck would bin Laden want anything to do with Saddam Hussein?
Saddam and his cronies are secular, socialist infidels.... an insult to true muslims.

But they have a common enemy. Even you have to admit that Bin Laden supporting Iraq means that he's indirectly supporting Saddam. Hell, at one time we were allies with Stalin.

If it were so easy, and Saddam Hussien has the means, why has he not done it?

Why has Al Qaeda not smuggled a tactical nuclear device into the USA and detonated it?

So we should wait until they are able to?

You're not confusing that with the Bin Laden tape are you?

Yeah I meant the Bin Laden tape.

I'm sick of being asked to accept a reduction in liberty in return for an increase in security.

Reduction in liberty? Taking 30 more minutes to get into the airplane is sure infringing on your liberty

Slant drilling into another contries oil supplies makes Kuwait innocent?
Iraq invaded Kuwait and blew the wells that were slant drilling into their oil reserves

Are you trying to re write history or did you just search through book after book trying to find something that justified the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait? Here's some info, ok?

By 1990 Iraq's financial problems were severe. Saddam looked at ways to press the oil-producing states of the Gulf to force up the price of crude oil by limiting production and waive the $40 billion that they had loaned Iraq during its war with Iran. Kuwait had made some concessions over production ceilings. But Saddam blamed Kuwait for over production. When his threats and blandishments failed, Iraq invaded Kuwait on 2 August 1990. He believed that occupying Kuwait could prove profitable.

Abuses by Iraqi forces in Kuwait:

Robbery and rape of Kuwaitis and expatriates.
Summary executions.
People dragged from their homes and held in improvised detention centres.
Amnesty International has listed 38 methods of torture used by the Iraqi occupiers. These included beatings, breaking of limbs, extracting finger and toenails, inserting bottle necks into the rectum, and subjecting detainees to mock executions.
Kuwaiti civilians arrested for "crimes" such as wearing beards.

Saddam also sought to justify the conquest of Kuwait on other grounds. Like other Iraqi leaders before him, he claimed that, as Kuwait's rulers had come under the jurisdiction of the governors of Basra in the time of the Ottoman Empire, Kuwait should belong to Iraq.

Iraqis don't want to be liberated.

Actually, based on testimony from people who escaped Iraq, they do want to be liberated. Personally I don't know why they'd want to since it's obviously such a utopia living in a Saddam run country .

[miir]

But they have a common enemy. Even you have to admit that Bin Laden supporting Iraq means that he's indirectly supporting Saddam.

Ummm no.

He has said, multiple times that Saddam Hussein and his party are infidels.


"we believe the socialists are infidels"


"the socialists are infidels regardless of where they are, whether in Baghdad or in Aden. ... "


"It doesn't matter whether the socialist (Baath) party or Saddam disappear. .."



Saddam is not a radical muslim.
Saddam's "govenrment" is secular and socialist.

So we should wait until they are able to?

So you should attack every country that may or may not be a threat in a near or distant future?
Iraq has made no hostile advances against any other country in the past 12 years. With hundreds of thousands of enemy troops in the area, what logic dictates that they would attempt such hostility now?

Are you trying to re write history or did you just search through book after book trying to find something that justified the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait? Here's some info, ok?

Dig a little deeper than your own government's propaganda to find out the other Iraqi motives for invading Kuwait.

Actually, based on testimony from people who escaped Iraq, they do want to be liberated

I like the irony in that.
I suppose I could say that based on testimony from officers in Iraqs army, they do not want to be liberated.

From what I have read, for the most part, Iraqis are allowed to practice their religion as they want and they arne't particularly opressed. The average Iraqi citizen is much better off than an Iranian or Afghan.

[Gurugurumaki]

or Texan for that matters~

[Sylvus]

From what I have read, for the most part, Iraqis are allowed to practice their religion as they want and they arne't particularly opressed. The average Iraqi citizen is much better off than an Iranian or Afghan.

My best friend's grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. all live in Baghdad and he's always telling me how there isn't much love for Saddam from the Iraqi people. Many of them have wanted to leave the country for years, but apparently that's no easy task. Saddam and his people pretty much take what they want from their people when they want it. Poverty runs rampant throughout a country that you would think could have a pretty decent economy with all the oil that is there. I'm not saying this to try and justify us going to war with them, I think that is a bit fucked actually. I just wanted to point out that with or without the US there, life in Iraq isn't exactly sunshine and rainbows.

[miir]

It's all relative.

Compare a western lifestyle to any middle eastern or even asian country and most people would be mortified. Even central american countries have immense poverty when compared to the US or Canada.

The quality of life in Iraq is higher than a lot of other countries in that area of the world.

[Metanis]

Metanis, coudl you please explain what the fuck your last two posts have to do with this topic?

Miir is pwning you because he's y'know... sticking to the subject at hand?

I'm trying to point out that much of the Bush bashing and anti-war rhetoric has nothing to do with the situation in Iraq. Miir and others here are tools as they pretend to debate the issues when in fact they merely recite a litany provided by others.

I'm sorry this makes your head hurt Aranuil, but this war with Iraq is just another skirmish in a long series of battles. The true war is the one of competing world views and ideas.

As to sticking with the subject at hand... grats Mr. Board Police, I guess I'm the first at VV to deviate from the subject of the original post.

[miir]

I'm trying to point out that much of the Bush bashing and anti-war rhetoric has nothing to do with the situation in Iraq.

Bush had virtual worldwide support when the decision was made to flush Al Qaeda and the Taliban out of Afghanistan... It was a just cause and a very real threat.

Bush is trying too hard to convince the rest of the world that Saddam is the same sort of threat as bin Laden. If it weren't for the painfully obvious reasons that Bush wants to oust Saddam, he might be able to garner more support....
Most of the world sees this as an Oil war and a personal vendetta.


100% of the Anti-Bush/Anti-war sentiment is a direct result of how Dubya is conducting himself in regards to Iraq/Saddam.

[Gurugurumaki]

Wheres Jesse Jackson when yoos need him, just send hims in and Iraq WIRL disarm kk~

[Vetiria]

Bush is trying too hard to convince the rest of the world that Saddam is the same sort of threat as bin Laden.

I completely agree with that statement. How I see it is that Bush is fighting the right war, just at the very wrong time. Eventually Saddam does need ousted, just not right now.

There are more important targets: North Korea now has a missile that can reach the west coast of the US; Iran's government openly supports meetings of terrorist groups in Tehran; Syria harbors members of Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. These are all more important right now that Saddam Hussein.

[Metanis]

I'm trying to point out that much of the Bush bashing and anti-war rhetoric has nothing to do with the situation in Iraq.

Bush had virtual worldwide support when the decision was made to flush Al Qaeda and the Taliban out of Afghanistan... It was a just cause and a very real threat.

Bush is trying too hard to convince the rest of the world that Saddam is the same sort of threat as bin Laden. If it weren't for the painfully obvious reasons that Bush wants to oust Saddam, he might be able to garner more support....
Most of the world sees this as an Oil war and a personal vendetta.


100% of the Anti-Bush/Anti-war sentiment is a direct result of how Dubya is conducting himself in regards to Iraq/Saddam.

OK, let's say for the sake of argument that you are entirely correct here. Let's say there shouldn't be any war. I merely want you to answer this question; Who or what is going to compel Saddam to clean up his act?

You can't answer that question can you? Not with any degree of certainty. So how many citizens are you willing to sacrifice?

[miir]

I merely want you to answer this question; Who or what is going to compel Saddam to clean up his act?

Increased inspections and and continual evaluations.

So how many citizens are you willing to sacrifice?

An Iraqi threat to American citizens is currently questionable.

There has been no indications that Iraq has the ability to conduct a pre emtive strike on the continental USA.
Saddam has not made any threats towards the US.
Iraq has taken no hostile action outside of its own borders in the past 12 years.



I ask you these questions...

Why do you think Iraq is such a threat to US national security?
How many innocent Iraqi civilians are you willing to sacrifice so Bush can finally get even with Saddam?
How much oil are those lives worth?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I don't worry about Saddam nuking America. I worry that he will sell nuclear devices or biological devices to terrorist groups who will then use them in the U.S. Same problem exists with North Korea. They are not stupid enough to get wiped off the planet by attacking us directly, but they could and will sell devices to terrorists.

[Gurugurumaki]

Kirmorl-good answers~

[miir]

Chew on this:

I can't think of a better wet dream for Osama bin Laden than to have several thousand, plump Western American-British military targets in there ready for the knives, the snipers, the guerrilla attacks on just about every person al Qaeda's got. It's just what Osama bin Laden wants us to do. Let's think about this. Let's push it further and let's try and bring the international community with us.

[Fallanthas]

Personally, I don't worry about Saddam affecting the continental U.S. in any way, shape or form.


I do worry about him further destabilizing an already shitty Middle East sitatuion. An are that we are more or less forced to do buisness with, both financially and politically.

Some here seem to forget that the United States is not the only country int he world, and that a good-sized truck makes an effective delivery system for most of Europe.

Add in the shit Saddam pulls on his own people and there is no question, he has got to go.

Miir,

Even with the evidence from Powells presentation, you still think that inspections will be anything but an annoyance to the Iraqi regime? Even if you still don't belive Saddam has WoMD's (despite the fact that they were documented by earlier inspection teams and Iraq can show no credible proof of their destruction), how can you possibly think he has complied with inspectors? How can you resoanbly expect that he ever will?

[Gurugurumaki]

Wheres the pie posts when yoos need them...anyones~

[Forthe]

But they have a common enemy. Even you have to admit that Bin Laden supporting Iraq means that he's indirectly supporting Saddam. Hell, at one time we were allies with Stalin.

I support the Iraqi population and don't agree with killing them without concrete evidence justifying such an action. This doesn't make me a fan of Saddam much less a supporter.

You use the same logic as the new anti-drug comercials (support terrorists etc). Weak logic.

Reduction in liberty? Taking 30 more minutes to get into the airplane is sure infringing on your liberty

See US Patriot Act. See even scarier Justice department work on expanding the Patriot Act via the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003 (new power for government to strip your citizenship amazed me).

[Lalanae]

pie > cake

[Brotha]

He has said, multiple times that Saddam Hussein and his party are infidels.

Did you see me dispute that? We thought the same of Stalin. History is riddled with allies out necessity and mutual interests.

So you should attack every country that may or may not be a threat in a near or distant future?

Every country is being and should be dealt with differently. No two situations are alike. Are you saying we should have a single policy world wide towards all countries that may be threats, regardless of the situation?

Iraq has made no hostile advances against any other country in the past 12 years. With hundreds of thousands of enemy troops in the area, what logic dictates that they would attempt such hostility now?

Saddam is the same person he was 12 years ago. He still has the same ambitions and same hatreds. He's still pursuing WMD, increasing his military, and pursuing long range ballistic missles. Nothing points towards him wanting peace now. The longer we wait, the more and more time he will have to rearm.

Dig a little deeper than your own government's propaganda to find out the other Iraqi motives for invading Kuwait.

Sorry, that's not propaganda. Those are accepted facts.

From what I have read, for the most part, Iraqis are allowed to practice their religion as they want and they arne't particularly opressed.

Really? Here's some personal accounts.

In December 1996, a Kurdish businessman from Baghdad was arrested outside his house by plainclothes security men. Initially his family did not know his whereabouts and went from one police station to another inquiring about him. Then they found out that he was being held in the headquarters of the General Security Directorate in Baghdad. The family was not allowed to visit him. Eleven months later the family was told by the authorities that he had been executed and that they should go and collect his body. His body bore evident signs of torture. His eyes were gouged out and the empty eye sockets filled with paper. His right wrist and left leg were broken. The family was not given any reason for his arrest and subsequent execution. However, they suspected that he was executed because of his friendship with a retired army general who had links with the Iraqi opposition outside the country and who was arrested just before his arrest and also executed. (Source: Amnesty International)

"...I saw a friend of mine, al-Shaikh Nasser Taresh al-Sa'idi, naked. He was handcuffed and a piece of wood was placed between his elbows and his knees. Two ends of the wood were placed on two high chairs and al-Shaikh Nasser was being suspended like a chicken. This method of torture is known as al-Khaygania (a reference to a former security director known as al-Khaygani). An electric wire was attached to al-Shaikh Nasser's penis and another one attached to one of his toes. He was asked if he could identify me and he said "this is al-Shaikh Yahya". They took me to another room and then after about 10 minutes they stripped me of my clothes and a security officer said "the person you saw has confessed against you". He said to me "You followers of [Ayatollah] al-Sadr have carried out acts harmful to the security of the country and have been distributing anti-government statements coming from abroad". He asked if I have any contact with an Iraqi religious scholar based in Iran who has been signing these statements. I said "I do not have any contacts with him"... I was then left suspended in the same manner as al-Shaikh al-Sa'idi. My face was looking upward. They attached an electric wire on my penis and the other end of the wire is attached to an electric motor. One security man was hitting my feet with a cable. Electric shocks were applied every few minutes and were increased. I must have been suspended for more than an hour. I lost consciousness. They took me to another room and made me walk even though my feet were swollen from beating... They repeated this method a few times." (Source: Amnesty International, testimony from an Iraqi theology student from Saddam City)

Other documented actions:

Human rights: abuses under Saddam

4000 prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib Prison in 1984.
3000 prisoners were executed at the Mahjar Prison between 1993 and 1998.
About 2500 prisoners were executed between 1997 and 1999 in a "prison cleansing" campaign.
122 male prisoners were executed at Abu Ghraib prison in February/ March 2000. A further 23 political prisoners were executed there in October 2001.
In October 2000, dozens of women accused of prostitution were beheaded without any judicial process. Some were accused for political reasons.
Women prisoners at Mahjar are routinely raped by their guards.
Methods of torture used in Iraqi jails include using electric drills to mutilate hands, pulling out fingernails, knife cuts, sexual attacks and 'official rape'.
Prisoners at the Qurtiyya Prison in Baghdad and elsewhere are kept in metal boxes the size of tea chests. If they do not confess they are left to die.

Increased inspections and and continual evaluations.

The inspectors haven't been able to find anything so far, what would 200 more inspectors do? Putting in thousands of UN soldiers for forced inspections? What makes you think Saddam would allow in thousands of soldiers without even fighting a war?

I love France and Germany's idea of "serious consequences." Saddam sure fucked up now!! Let's send in 200 more inspectors and show him who's boss.

Why do you think Iraq is such a threat to US national security?

A dictator w/ WMD and terrorists ties isn't a threat to the US? He doesn't just have ties to Al Qaeda, but also to other terrorist organizations including Hammas. Hammas is believed to have sleeper cells throughout the US as well. Even IF he had no terrorists ties whatsoever, I'd want him removed. Due to his actions towards his own people, the world community, and the threat he poses toward his neighbors.

How many innocent Iraqi civilians are you willing to sacrifice so Bush can finally get even with Saddam?

It has nothing to do with "getting even." This is a baseless allegation. I've yet to see a single person who knows Bush to come out and say it has anything thing to do with "getting even." Do you really think people like Colin Powell would go along with that?

How much oil are those lives worth?

None, it's not about oil. What part of that is so hard to get? We could have pushed to finish the job in 92 in the Gulf War and seized their fields. We could have easily seized Kuwait's oil fields anytime. We've had a strong presence in Kuwait for years now, but we haven't taken them. It's impossible to look at the facts and think it's just about oil.

[Metanis]

I ask you these questions...

Why do you think Iraq is such a threat to US national security?
How many innocent Iraqi civilians are you willing to sacrifice so Bush can finally get even with Saddam?
How much oil are those lives worth?

1) Iraq is a threat because it's head of state is a certifiable looney tune.
2) In round numbers? All of them.
3) In round numbers? Every barrel.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. Patriotism is not a game. It is very much "us vs. them" and they have set the stakes at mass murder. I don't believe my country or my president are always right... however I will always give them the benefit of the doubt.

Dissent is fine. You've expressed dissent. You've blown some smoke around the room. None of the objective facts have been changed. Saddam is a threat. Saddam needs to retire. George W. Bush is going to offer him a fat early retirement program.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Well said Metanis.

A little heavy on the "all of them" comment, but I agree with your overall feeling there.

[Forthe]

I ask you these questions...

Why do you think Iraq is such a threat to US national security?
How many innocent Iraqi civilians are you willing to sacrifice so Bush can finally get even with Saddam?
How much oil are those lives worth?

1) Iraq is a threat because it's head of state is a certifiable looney tune.
2) In round numbers? All of them.
3) In round numbers? Every barrel.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. Patriotism is not a game. It is very much "us vs. them" and they have set the stakes at mass murder. I don't believe my country or my president are always right... however I will always give them the benefit of the doubt.

Dissent is fine. You've expressed dissent. You've blown some smoke around the room. None of the objective facts have been changed. Saddam is a threat. Saddam needs to retire. George W. Bush is going to offer him a fat early retirement program.

Grats on portraying the american cowboy stereotype. Fucking mindless sheep.

Time warp back 60 years and you could be a German.

[miir]

Saddam is the same person he was 12 years ago.

How is Joe American, like yourself, privy to such information?
I don't claim to know what goes on in Saddam Hussein's head...I'm merely stating that his actions in the past 12 years have not exactly shown any hostile intent towards surrounding countries or the US.


Nothing points towards him wanting peace now

On the same token, nothing points to him wanting war now.


In December 1996, a Kurdish businessman from Baghdad was arrested outside his house.....

Who has denied that Saddam has commited some pretty nasty human rights violations?

Should the USA go out and hunt down every dictator who has commited human rights atrocities? Can the USA wage war against all of those contries at the same time?

You 'personal accounts' don't hold much bearing on the situation.
The average Iraqi leads a pretty decent life when compared to other countries like Iran and Afghanistan.



The inspectors haven't been able to find anything so far, what would 200 more inspectors do? Putting in thousands of UN soldiers for forced inspections? What makes you think Saddam would allow in thousands of soldiers without even fighting a war?


Maybe they will, maybe they wont...
Maybe he will, maybe he wont...

One thing that heightened inspections will do is prevent the needless loss of thousands of innocent lives.


A dictator w/ WMD and terrorists ties isn't a threat to the US?

Maybe I missed it, but what are his terrorist ties?
There is no irrefutable proof that Iraq does or doesn't have bio/chem weapons or the means to make them.


It has nothing to do with "getting even."

It's not about oil.

If you honestly believe these 2 statements, you're even more ignorant than I'd originally thought.

[kyoukan]

Lest we forget, communism as an ideology is still alive and kicking. Let's also not forget that this ideology has resulted in more loss of human life and misery than any other in history. Don't take my word for it, take a stroll back through the history of the 20th century. Stalin alone killed more Russians than died in all of WWII. Don't even think about China's killing of infants in the last 40 years.

Do you recognize that much of the anti-war protest is just anti-US sentiment? It's fine to be anti-US, but why not be a little more anti-Saddam?

you are not a very smart person.

[masteen]

You can site many examples of another country/regime/leader who shares a nasty trait with Saddam/Iraq that the US didn't remove or even look cross-eyed at. It's not that Saddam is one thing or another; it's the fact that he's fucking evil in every way we can define the word.

I challenge somebody to cite ONE that has ALL of those traits all wrapped up in such a nice, psychotic package that the US didn't have whacked.

[Forthe]

You can site many examples of another country/regime/leader who shares a nasty trait with Saddam/Iraq that the US didn't remove or even look cross-eyed at. It's not that Saddam is one thing or another; it's the fact that he's fucking evil in every way we can define the word.

I challenge somebody to cite ONE that has ALL of those traits all wrapped up in such a nice, psychotic package that the US didn't have whacked.

“mad dog of the Middle East”
____________________________________

You must be aware how the US government is able to create villains when it wants to. Go back over the years and think of how many "pure evil" enemies have been created for you.

Now consider that the facts you blindly accept that create these "pure evil" villains come from the same people that claim that audio tape yesterday was definate proof of a Saddam\Osama link.

The "mad dog" was once one of these "pure evil" manufactured villains. I'm not quite sure\remember how he was able to shed his evilness.

I fully expect after Iraq the leader of Iran or North Korea will also become a household name that we will associate with drowning puppies type evil.

The US government seems to use public ignorance and fear to turn US public opinion towards its own agenda.

[Metanis]

Well said Metanis.

A little heavy on the "all of them" comment, but I agree with your overall feeling there.

I know Miir was just baiting me with his questions.

But, if you think about it a little bit, asking how many "innocent Iraqi civilians" we are ready to kill becomes one of those defining exercises.

First, throw out the word innocent. He used that word for it's emotional connotations.

Then, let's think it through. We know there are going to be some non-combatants killed. Say 5.

Hell we have 5 people die in single routine traffic accidents and murder-suicides. We won't get too excited about 5.

So how about 200? Ummmm, that's not even an airliner crash.

1,000? 3,000? How about 100,000? That's a nice big number and world opinion might get outraged if 100,000 Iraqi civilians die.

So the war starts and the US military actually kills 100 civilians the first day in aerial bombardments. Then, Saddam releases a chemical agent on his own people in Basra and he kills 99,900 of them.

The world press goes ballistic, 100,000 civilian casualties in Iraq.

So, George Bush calls the troops home and he says, "Well, we killed all the civilians we were allowed, I have to call the war off."

Duh!

Obviously that's not going to happen. So you can see through my dumb scenario that you can't put a number on acceptable civilian deaths. There isn't such a thing. We really need to realize that it could get ugly and that many many Iraqi civilians could die.

It's going to take as many as it takes. So my answer to Miir was not in jest, I hope we can get the job done with very few civilian deaths, but if that's not possible, I wouldn't advocate ending the mission.

Where would you set the number Miir? Would you even remember that Saddam is the responsible party?

[Metanis]

Lest we forget, communism as an ideology is still alive and kicking. Let's also not forget that this ideology has resulted in more loss of human life and misery than any other in history. Don't take my word for it, take a stroll back through the history of the 20th century. Stalin alone killed more Russians than died in all of WWII. Don't even think about China's killing of infants in the last 40 years.

Do you recognize that much of the anti-war protest is just anti-US sentiment? It's fine to be anti-US, but why not be a little more anti-Saddam?

you are not a very smart person.

Thank you Kooky, from you I will take that as a great compliment.

[kyoukan]

It was an insult.

[Brotha]

On the same token, nothing points to him wanting war now.

I cited examples. He's still pursuing more bio/chem weapons, trying to obtain a nuclear weapon, increasing his military, and pursuing long range ballistic missles. He's not fully cooperating with inspectors. Does that sound like a man who wants peace? All he has to do is tell inspectors where to look, but he won't because he wants these weapons. Why does he want them?

You 'personal accounts' don't hold much bearing on the situation.
The average Iraqi leads a pretty decent life when compared to other countries like Iran and Afghanistan.

My point was that they ARE "particularly opressed". And you might want to remove Afghanistan. Without a doubt it was the most brutal nation in the middle east, but guess how that was changed?

Human rights abuses continue within Iraq. People continue to be arrested and detained on suspicion of political or religious activities, or often because they are related to members of the opposition. Executions are carried out without due process of law. Relatives are often prevented from burying the victims in accordance with Islamic practice. Thousands of prisoners have been executed.

Maybe they will, maybe they wont...
Maybe he will, maybe he wont...

One thing that heightened inspections will do is prevent the needless loss of thousands of innocent lives.

You obviously could careless if inspections work or not based on that statement.

Maybe I missed it, but what are his terrorist ties?

I posted it earlier in the thread man, but I'll repeat it again.

Zarqwi is a high ranking member of Al Qaeda. Zarqwi and two dozen other fanatics have been staying in Baghdad for the past 8 months with Saddam's knowledge. Saddam isn't a TOTAL idiot, so you can atleast assume there was a non aggresion pact made between Iraq and Al Qaeda. That's a connection. You can't argue that. Now, you are giving Saddam the benefit of the doubt and hoping that's the full extent of the connection. I, however, do not think Saddam should be given the benefit of the doubt, based on his past actions and the ramifications of him passing along WMD to terrorists; terrorists we know he has a connection to.

Iraqi ties and funding to Hammas and other less known terrorist organizations have been documented as well. You can't try to argue against that.

There is no irrefutable proof that Iraq does or doesn't have bio/chem weapons or the means to make them.

You say that, then you call me ignorant?

Based on the UNSCOM report to the UN Security Council in January 1999 and earlier UNSCOM reports, we assess that when the UN inspectors left Iraq they were unable to account for:


up to 360 tonnes of bulk chemical warfare agent, including 1.5 tonnes of VX nerve agent;
up to 3,000 tonnes of precursor chemicals, including approximately 300 tonnes which, in the Iraqi CW programme, were unique to the production of VX;
growth media procured for biological agent production (enough to produce over three times the 8,500 litres of anthrax spores Iraq admits to having manufactured);
over 30,000 special munitions for delivery of chemical and biological agents.

None of that has been credibly accounted for. They don't just get up and walk away. Saddam has a history of trying to hide stuff and fooling inspectors- that can't be denied. Then we have Powell's presentation. Then we have the ex Iraqi scientist talking to ABC and telling about how Saddam is threatening to murder scientists if they tell the inspectors anything. How anyone could possibly say with a straight face that Iraq doesn't have any chemical/biological weapons is ludicrous.

You obviously want to believe this crap you keep saying over and over, even when all the evidence points the other way, because you have a problem with America, but you could atleast try to go by real evidence every now and then.

edit: spelling