The Powell and Bush comedy show

[Kelshara]

You know, when I read what Brotha says I get this instant image in my mind of a overweight, middle aged man wearing sagging old jeans, a wifebeater and a week old beard, sitting behind his monitor in his American flag decorated trailer and every now and then looking over at the picture of Bush on the wall with 2 crossed flags under it and a candle on each side. Anyway..

If we had this kind of proof we would have told the inspectors actually where to look on day 1. I for one am satisfied with the proof and facts I've been given.

Yet it was claimed the proof would be shown. Funny how the comments changed after they got smacked in the face with how horrible the proof is..

The coalition is growing daily.

And what countries might that be?

The actual photographs I think you're referring to were taken two days before inspections began again.

Were they given to inspectors then or did they sit on them to say "HAH! Told you so! We knew all along!"? Has USA actually worked WITH the weapon inspectors or have they worked against?

Powell's presentation was pretty precise, but left a little bit of thinking and connecting the dots up to the people watching it

Thinking? Like understanding that the pictures they showed of supposed factories actually were buildings controlled by US supported rebel forces in a part of Iraq that is not under Hussein control? Erh..

[Metanis]

Now if you think it is socially acceptable to use Saddams assholism (Yes, he is a dick, and deserves to die, likely) against him, look at your own nation and ask yourself why you seem to hold fucking Saddam to a higher standard than George Bush.

/rant off

Hey junior, the last time I checked, George Bush hasn't killed people by the millions. He hasn't gassed anyone except for condemned killers on Texas' death row. He hasn't had people tortured. I could go on with many dozens of ways in which George Bush's failures and inadequacies are vastly more mundane and minor than Saddam Hussein's.

Your rant actually proves my case for me. Your type hates true freedom, you hate religion, you hate conservatism, you hate George Bush, you hate the free exchange of ideas. You have to support a blemish on history like Saddam because you've boxed yourself in with empty-headed lowest-common-denominator follow-the-Hillary mindlessness.

Grats Acies, your kind will probably breed your way into world domination... sorta like we expect cockroaches to take over the world some day.

[Mak]

Doesn't anyone besides me get tired of this same fucking debate every week?

Nobody is convincing anyone of a damn thing. We know who wants war. We know who wants peace. Give it a rest already!

[miir]

This is a good thing. And knowing this will make me sleep better at night. Did you honestly expect anything different? Im sorry we inconvenienced you but shit happens and times change. About 3000 people had an inconvenience not too long ago and we want to kind of, well, not let the shit happen again?

If read my entire post, you'd know I was replying to asshead who thinks it's possible to smuggle a nuclear weapon into the US.


The security checks coming into the US are a necessary inconvenience.

[miir]

Doesn't anyone besides me get tired of this same fucking debate every week?

Nobody is convincing anyone of a damn thing. We know who wants war. We know who wants peace. Give it a rest already!

This is a discussion forum.
This is a discussion.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

[Kluden]

In lei of the original theme of the message:

Yes, GW and Powell keep taking their credibility (atleast with me) and throwing it away. I have accepted that we, as in th U.S., are going to be forced to pay (through tax dollars) to wage war on a supposed mad man that has violated a UN sanction. That is the jist of it. Agree with GW or Don't Agree...you will still be paying for this war regardless. Vote for whomever you want...yours and my congressmen and women have already given the president the authority for full scale war.

I emplore you American citizens to figure out where the money for this war is coming from...same place the Gulf War came from...same place it always comes from: Social Security. So when you see that tax on your paycheck, just remember, you aren't paying for someone's retirement, you are paying for war.

I'm surprised we even debate what each of us feels is proof enough or not. It will always be subject to our opinions on the matter, and none of us will ever be definitively "right". There is always a grey area.

I will have to disagree that this will be mad bombings of innocent people. With the shear volume of troops and equipment that has been moved to the area, I foresee a more ground assault tactics than the Gulf War. I imagine it will be more of a "search and destroy" type war...not mass spread of destruction through bombings.

*edit: tt-yoro english hard

[Acies]

Now if you think it is socially acceptable to use Saddams assholism (Yes, he is a dick, and deserves to die, likely) against him, look at your own nation and ask yourself why you seem to hold fucking Saddam to a higher standard than George Bush.

/rant off

Hey junior, the last time I checked, George Bush hasn't killed people by the millions. He hasn't gassed anyone except for condemned killers on Texas' death row. He hasn't had people tortured. I could go on with many dozens of ways in which George Bush's failures and inadequacies are vastly more mundane and minor than Saddam Hussein's.

Your rant actually proves my case for me. Your type hates true freedom, you hate religion, you hate conservatism, you hate George Bush, you hate the free exchange of ideas. You have to support a blemish on history like Saddam because you've boxed yourself in with empty-headed lowest-common-denominator follow-the-Hillary mindlessness.

Grats Acies, your kind will probably breed your way into world domination... sorta like we expect cockroaches to take over the world some day.

Okay, so you think a pound of cure is worth more than an ounce of prevention then. Noted.

My type hates true freedom...
How the FUCK do you seperate that from my post, I really want to know. Please address this in your next post, as I would adore to hear you logically explain how I feel negatively about freedom dick.

I hate religion. Not entirely true. I vastly disapprove of the shitstorms religion has caused in the past. The question, I guess would be, if you were a creature of any real morals instead of a sheep, why don't you?

I hate conservatism. NO. I recognize that America is about checks and balances. Conservatives need liberals, vice versa. Really I do not care about that shit, I just think war over this (oil) is petty.

I hate George Bush. Again, no, I strongly disagree with George Bush. I am not incited to a ravenous murdering spree to end his Presidency, and have no qualms with the man outside of his bullshit war encouragement.

I hate the exchange of free ideas. Owie, coming from a cockhole like you, that sting. Pot, kettle, stfu. I am here stating how I feel on this. I disagree with you, but I was not willing to declare my assumtions about how you think or feel when I do not know you. That would be presumtious and, really, stupid. But since you opened that can of worms, I think you are the above.

Support Saddam? You are a fucking moron. I could give a rats shit less about Saddam. I DO care about people in the middle east that are going to be caught up in this conflict.

As to all the horrible things that Saddam has done, are you saying we have not tested the effectiveness of our weapons on our own soldiers? If you think that is the case, then I would really like you to involve yourself in researching that, perhaps as a first hand experiment yourself. Please.

Now, why don't we go after all the other petty tyrants in the world who do like thinks to their own citizens? I will let you in on a secret. There is no money in it, unlike the scads of oil Saddam has.

Perhaps George Bush has not. And maybe I am being hard on the man.
Maybe he can pull off a military operation with such preciscion, that there will only be military targets hit, and there will not be any crying children or dying civilians. If he can do that, I will gladly eat my words and appoligize to you IN FULL, for everything I said, and will be the first to cheer the death of Saddam and the genious of Bush.

Until that time, I still contend that you are an idiot.

[Brotha]

They have, infact, accounted for a large portion of them.

I'm waiting to hear how they have credibly accounted for these weapons. On Blix's report on the 31st Iraq still hadn't accounted for these. Lately, Blix even said this stuff the scientists have told him just looks like smoke trails, but we'll see what he says on the 14th.

All of those countries have vested interest in Iraq.
On that token, why should all those other countries allow the USA to dictate their foreign policy?

You hit it, France and Russia do have interests in Iraq. Not sure what interests Germany has though, besides their gov. wanting to get reelected.

The US military enforcing foreign policy on random nations is very risky for US national security.

Yeah, we just randomly picked out a nation that has violated 17 UN resolutions since 1992, that supports terrorism and has weapons of mass destruction.

So they had 'proof' that they were constructing and testing weapons at that site but they have no proof where all the machinery and the alleged weapons might have gone?

It takes 4 hours for a satellite to recycle for another photograph. You don't aim the sattelite then follow 5 18 wheelers through Iraq with a joystick. Good luck trying to keep track of those in a country the size of California with hundreds, perhaps thousands, of similar looking trucks.

EDIT: didn't mean to try to quote this, but not going to remove it now that it's posted:

The alleged terrorist camp that Powell had proof of was located in Nothern Iraq in a Kurdish controlled area.

How is this fact?

From U.S. intelligence, and we're not the only ones with a decent intelligence service. If this was a lie, France and Germany would have called us on it. Is Iraq even denying this?

bin Laden did accomplish one thing he set out to do, he instilled fear in the hearts of a lot of Americans.

WTF? I see you and Kyoukan, two Canadians, repeatedly saying Bin Laden instilled fear in the hearts of Americans. Nothing could be farther from the truth, all he did was strengthen our resolve and piss us off. Bin Laden is the one hiding and scared, not Americans.

Long and short, we equiped and trained Al Qaeda to fight Iran and Iraq both, whom they hated anyway.

Oh and check out Saddam's lastest tape, calling for the Muslims of the world to support Iraq.

They hate each other. Al Qaeda was a liberation front that was in the past supported, trained and outfitted by guess who?

That's why two dozen of them are now residing in Baghdad with Saddam's knowledge. And if you think us helping Afghanistan against Russia during the cold war was wrong, then you're a dumbfuck.

America has done far worse than anything Saddam has, we just have not been exposed by a superpower, yet.

WTF are you talking about? Do you have any idea what the people in Iraq go through everyday? How someone can actually compare us to Iraq I don't know. It's a sad day in America if people actually believe this.

Tell you what, why don't you insist that we are disarmed completely as well, because we are a meaner form of rattlesnake that some petty bitch dictator could ever be, believe it.

No, we have them to keep other nations in line. You know, peacefully, without committing soldiers? My god you're a retard.

It is not about safety, it is not about "Saddam" has the weapons, it IS about the oil, and with it, money and prosperity, period. If you think otherwise then you are either dense or naive.

Just look at the facts. You're the one being naive here. You couldn't be more blind if I tied a gasoline soaked towell around on your eyes.

Yet it was claimed the proof would be shown. Funny how the comments changed after they got smacked in the face with how horrible the proof is..

Funny how days before his presentation, Powell said there wouldn't be a "smoking gun." How can anyone say this wasn't enough proof to show that Iraq is continuing its WMD programs and that this isn't a material breach?

And what countries might that be?

Australia and England, along with almost all of the EU and others (I don't have a list offhand). At last count 20+ countries are offering aid in one form or another. And even IF other countries aren't supporting us besides these, what difference does this make? We don't expect France or Germany to provide many troops or supplies. Who fucking cares.

Okay, so you think a pound of cure is worth more than an ounce of prevention then. Noted.

I heard an interesting analogy that is so true for this Iraq situation. You have a brain tumor. You can operate early on it, with some but little risk. Or you can wait until the tumor gets worse and worse, until operating on it gets riskier and risker the longer you wait. Then one day the tumor kills you.

EDIT: spelling

[Kaldaur]

Bleeding heart liberal here. I'm not gonna get involved into the Iraq situation as per the present, but something of interest to note:
After Iraq invaded Kuwait, Osama bin Laden took al queda to Saudi Arabia and told the royal family that al queda would defend the country against Iraqi agression. The Saudi government also had another offer of protection from another group. When Saudi Arabia accepted the support of the United States, it infuriated bin Laden. Here he was, a Saudi born and raised to protect his homeland--and inevitably, the holy land of Muslims (that being Mecca and the other which I cannot recall), and now, Saudi Arabia had spurned his support in exchange for the support of a group that did not worship Allah. He then vowed to attack all Americans, because of this casual brushing aside by Saudi Arabia. S.A. promptly sent him into exile. So instead of turning his anger against Saudi Arabia, he chose to focus this agression and anger onto us.

Iraq has a Food For Oil deal with two nations in Europe. In exchange for oil, Iraq is granted food for its people. Of course, the people probably never get the food, but France and Germany casually overlook this fact in this incredibly excellent deal.

[Kelshara]

Irak has accepted the use of U2 planes, should make it easier to track all those trucks!

Arabian leaders from all the countries in the Arabian League are desperately trying to prevent a war because they are worried about the intentions and reasons USA have.

Yeah, we just randomly picked out a nation that has violated 17 UN resolutions since 1992, that supports terrorism and has weapons of mass destruction.

Money wise Saudi supports terrorism more than any other country.. not to mention IRA got most of their funding from USA citizens.

No, we have them to keep other nations in line.

And this is your job? What if THEY want to keep YOU in line?

How can anyone say this wasn't enough proof to show that Iraq is continuing its WMD programs and that this isn't a material breach?

Because there was no hard proof whatsoever? Because both the US and British government screwed up bigtime by using a student paper? Because when you make stupid mistakes like claiming a camp is a terrorist camp while it is in fact a camp used by US backed rebellions ruins any credibility you had? Because drawings of a truck isn't very convincing?

Australia and England, along with almost all of the EU and others (I don't have a list offhand). At last count 20+ countries are offering aid in one form or another. And even IF other countries aren't supporting us besides these, what difference does this make? We don't expect France or Germany to provide many troops or supplies. Who fucking cares.

England: Blair's party has lost so much support it hasn't been this low for 10 years. Less than a month ago 58% of the English population was against a war. 32% (I remembered the wrong number earlier) believe today that Bush is the largest threat against world peace, while 27% each go for North Korea or Iraq.

Rest of EU support it? You on crack?

Spain: 91% are against a war.
Austria: 85% against.
Sweden: 81% against
Luxembourg: 81% against.
Denmark: 79% against.
Italy: 79% against.
Finland: 78% against.
Ireland: 77% against.
Portugal: 72% against.
France: 73% think the country should use the veto right.
Germany: 70% are against a war, 57% think USA is a country full of warmongerers, 6% think Bush is trying to keep the peace.

What about Eastern Europe that the government has talked so highly about as "The New Europe"?

Even if the Security Council is to support attacks on Iraq the numbers supporting the war is extremely low.

Romania: 38% in support if council supports.
Bulgaria: 28% in support if council supports.
Russia: 23% in support if council supports.
Estland: 20% in support if council supports.

So what countries did you think of exactly?

And even IF other countries aren't supporting us besides these, what difference does this make?

Obviously a lot or you wouldn't argue it so strongly nor would Powell/Bush dig as franticly as they are.

[Kluden]

Seriously, if people in Germany think this country is full of "warmongers" as your source puts it...well...they need to come here and read this board from time to time. Or come to DC and see all the protests.

That seriously pisses me off that so many in Germany feel that way. I thought they were trying to say they have higher moral ground than to sling mud...well fuck you too Germany, you have been added to my access of ay-vil!!!1!!1

[Acies]

Kelshara if you go to Las Vegas FF remind me to buy you a drink

[noel]

Kelshara, who derived those percentages?

Was it the same people that said, "4 out of 5 dentists recommend Trident for their patients who chew gum." ?

Surveys can say anything you want them to say.

Opinion polls have little bearing on the situation. Follow the suit of Miir, Kyoukan, Forthe and others and at least have the courtesy to argue with facts which are sourced.

[Brotha]

Irak has accepted the use of U2 planes, should make it easier to track all those trucks!

So we're going to find these 18 wheelers somehow that we saw months ago by using U2 planes? The only way we can find these now is if Iraq comes out and cooperates fully.

And this is your job? What if THEY want to keep YOU in line?

I'm not going to further clarify what I said. If you don't get it yet then you're not going to.

Because there was no hard proof whatsoever? Because both the US and British government screwed up bigtime by using a student paper? Because when you make stupid mistakes like claiming a camp is a terrorist camp while it is in fact a camp used by US backed rebellions ruins any credibility you had? Because drawings of a truck isn't very convincing?

So what if they used the wording from a well written paper? The underlying principle is still the same. They weren't getting their intell from a thesis. As I said before, if you're not able to take those photos, voice intercepts, and personal accountings from people that escaped Iraq in context, then you just don't WANT to get it and are just closing your eyes to the facts.

So what countries did you think of exactly?

I'm going to assume your facts are correct for the sake of arguementation.

I was talking about the actual govs. supporting us, which they are. Of course the people of Europe don't want to get involved w/ a war on Iraq, a war the US could easily fight on its own. They were fine with a butcher in their own backyard in the Balkans, why should we expect more this time?

believe today that Bush is the largest threat against world peace, while 27% each go for North Korea or Iraq.

All the more reason to ignore Europe. Europe is going insane.

Obviously a lot or you wouldn't argue it so strongly nor would Powell/Bush dig as franticly as they are.

I was talking about technically speaking. Technically, what will they do to help our war against Iraq? What? Waiting. Of course we WANT international support, but if we don't get it it won't hurt us in our war efforts.

Are you saying that if the Security Council voted unanmiously to attack Iraq, you would suddenly change your mind and support it? No? I'm so sick of anti war people trying to hide behind the UN.

[Kelshara]

Also it is worth noticing a couple more things:

- The whole NATO issue. The problem here is that NATO is only supposed to be defensive, not offensive. If they started planning defense against a counterattack from Iraq at this time (aka: plan that a war is started by USA attacking Iraq), it would go against the political statement NATO is founded on.

- Euoprean Union requested USA to clarify the status of the Cuba prisoners ASAP. Request was made on Jan 31st. It included a request that USA should release prisoners without proof or evidence of terrorist activity.

[Acies]

Kelshara, please put up a link to the website where you got those percentages.
Thank you

[Forthe]

I read that article that Kelshara is using for the percentages. It was on the bbc website.

[Vailex Darkfury]

This is a good thing. And knowing this will make me sleep better at night. Did you honestly expect anything different? Im sorry we inconvenienced you but shit happens and times change. About 3000 people had an inconvenience not too long ago and we want to kind of, well, not let the shit happen again?

If read my entire post, you'd know I was replying to asshead who thinks it's possible to smuggle a nuclear weapon into the US.


The security checks coming into the US are a necessary inconvenience.

Truth be told, it is possible to sneak weapons into the US. Its pretty tight in some areas but we have all sides to worry about and an assload of coastline to cover. The puddle pirates cant see everything all the time. Hell, they dont even have to bring the bomb in whole.

Im not going to sit here and try to simplify an already complex situation. And anyone who thinks they have this whole scenario figured out is a walking clusterfuck. A lot of media and reports are being tossed about on both sides of the fence. Im not going to be a dumbass and believe everything I read. But just my personal opinions...

1. all UN countries involved have some kind of stake involved in Iraq's oil including ourselves which is influencing votes and agendas.

2. We arent going in there just because of oil. Iraq has a dangerous government which needs to be dealt with in some way which will most likely be force.

3. I do think the Inspectors are being deceived.

4. I do believe those empty warheads had a chemical purpose which is enough evidence for me.

5. We should disarm our programs as well. If I were a betting man Id say we have active programs somewhere.

6. The US should have more patience in this situation. And give inspectors better info in catching a "live" weapon.

[noel]

Also it is worth noticing a couple more things:

- The whole NATO issue. The problem here is that NATO is only supposed to be defensive, not offensive. If they started planning defense against a counterattack from Iraq at this time (aka: plan that a war is started by USA attacking Iraq), it would go against the political statement NATO is founded on.

/sarcasm

If we know of a likely threat to the military, social, cultural, or economic of a NATO member, we should always wait until that threat has manifested itself before planning any action.

- Euoprean Union requested USA to clarify the status of the Cuba prisoners ASAP. Request was made on Jan 31st. It included a request that USA should release prisoners without proof or evidence of terrorist activity.

The European Union has no authority over 'war criminals' held by the United States.

Facts plzkthx.

Acies, even if she posts the source of her survey, she is posting an opinion poll. I may think that the sky is purple, because I've never seen the sky, or don't believe in the sky, but that does not make it so.

[kyoukan]

You people are morons. Saddam Hussein has massive underground bunkers stockpiled with chemical weapons. Everyone knows about his secret mobile biological weapons labs that drive all over the place to avoid inspectors. Deep in the desert, hidden under artificial sand dunes, nuclear missiles are being developed.

My new book is filled to the brim with facts, research and graphs proving all of this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Clearly the man is a threat the stability of the region, because the only thing worse than piles and piles of weapons of mass destruction, are invisible weapons of mass destruction.

[noel]

You people are morons. Saddam Hussein has massive underground bunkers stockpiled with chemical weapons. Everyone knows about his secret mobile biological weapons labs that drive all over the place to avoid inspectors. Deep in the desert, hidden under artificial sand dunes, nuclear missiles are being developed.

My new book is filled to the brim with facts, research and graphs proving all of this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Clearly the man is a threat the stability of the region, because the only thing worse than piles and piles of weapons of mass destruction, are invisible weapons of mass destruction.

Kyoukan gets it.

[Forthe]

- Euoprean Union requested USA to clarify the status of the Cuba prisoners ASAP. Request was made on Jan 31st. It included a request that USA should release prisoners without proof or evidence of terrorist activity.

The European Union has no authority over 'war criminals' held by the United States.

Actually this situation is nasty.
- The EU is requesting this because the US is detaining some EU citizens in Cuba.
- The US has said these are not 'war criminals' and not covered under the Geneva Convention.

So the EU has citizens being detained without even basic rights and no charges laid against them or evidence presented justifying their detention.

[Forthe]

Kelshara 's source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2747175.stm

[Kelshara]

Source: http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=6965

It is in Norwegian so have somebody translate. Original article was on BBC site I believe, it was written in Norwegian by NTB which is the Norwegian version of Associated Press. VG (Verdens Gang) is the largest newspaper in Norway both online and paper based.

English link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2747175.stm

There now you don't have to strain yourself with a different language Aranuil

So we're going to find these 18 wheelers somehow that we saw months ago by using U2 planes?

USA asked to use U2s. Now they are allowed to. Ever happy?

I'm not going to further clarify what I said. If you don't get it yet then you're not going to.

Convincing argument!

I was talking about the actual govs. supporting us, which they are. Of course the people of Europe don't want to get involved w/ a war on Iraq, a war the US could easily fight on its own. They were fine with a butcher in their own backyard in the Balkans, why should we expect more this time?

Yeah 2 governments support it without a Security Council resolution afaik. England and Spain. Neither will for long because it is political suicide unless the public opinion changes. Btw the support for the war in USA is sinking as well.. hum maybe that is why Bush has to rush it!

Oh and you seem to forget that the peacekeeping force on Balkan was highly international, if you claim USA did that alone.. well.. heh.

All the more reason to ignore Europe. Europe is going insane.

Or maybe you are the one who is blinded by an oilcovered rag..

Are you saying that if the Security Council voted unanmiously to attack Iraq, you would suddenly change your mind and support it? No? I'm so sick of anti war people trying to hide behind the UN.

It would go a long way to convince me and others that there is a legit reason for the war. Sorry, Bush is not trustworthy enough to take his word for it. Look at the BBC site and notice the difference with or without a UN resolution. I am sure even you can read a graph.

[Kelshara]

Aranuil I guess this goes over your head...

If we know of a likely threat to the military, social, cultural, or economic of a NATO member, we should always wait until that threat has manifested itself before planning any action.

NATO is a DEFENSE treaty only. There, I capitalized it so you can understand it easier.

The European Union has no authority over 'war criminals' held by the United States.

As long as USA wants support they better clean up their side.

So the EU has citizens being detained without even basic rights and no charges laid against them or evidence presented justifying their detention

Bingo.

[noel]

- Euoprean Union requested USA to clarify the status of the Cuba prisoners ASAP. Request was made on Jan 31st. It included a request that USA should release prisoners without proof or evidence of terrorist activity.

The European Union has no authority over 'war criminals' held by the United States.

Actually this situation is nasty.
- The EU is requesting this because the US is detaining some EU citizens in Cuba.
- The US has said these are not 'war criminals' and not covered under the Geneva Convention.

So the EU has citizens being detained without even basic rights and no charges laid against them or evidence presented justifying their detention.

My apologies, they're not 'war criminals', and I don't recall their classification at the moment. I still maintain that the EU has no authority over the US for these detainees.

Forthe, thank you for posting the source.

I very honestly don't give a rats ass what European Public opinion is. European public opinion has zero bearing on what my country should or should not do. For that matter, the opinion of the non-voting US citizen has no bearing on what the US should or should not do.

European Leadership is another matter entirely. I think it's important from a world political standpoint to take into consideration the positions of European leadership, and to work with them to find alternatives and compromises to conflict.

However, if my government/military determines that the only course of action is war, they have my support. I have seen a great deal of saber rattling, and that rattling seems to be having an effect, but I have yet to see war (though I think it's likely).

[noel]

Aranuil I guess this goes over your head...

If we know of a likely threat to the military, social, cultural, or economic of a NATO member, we should always wait until that threat has manifested itself before planning any action.

NATO is a DEFENSE treaty only. There, I capitalized it so you can understand it easier.

False. First of all, Nato is an organization, not a treaty. Second of all, NATO is a military organization. Finally, NATO was founded with the destruction of 'Nazi Tyranny'. You can read all about it here.

The European Union has no authority over 'war criminals' held by the United States.

As long as USA wants support they better clean up their side.[/quote]
The US does not need European support. Period.

European support is 'highly desirable', but largely unnecessary.

So the EU has citizens being detained without even basic rights and no charges laid against them or evidence presented justifying their detention

Bingo.

These individuals were captured by my military during a time of war. When my government feels it's an appropriate time to justify themselves to the world, or to give these individuals a trial or back to their respective governments, I have no doubt that any or all of these things will occur.

[Mak]

Doesn't anyone besides me get tired of this same fucking debate every week?

Nobody is convincing anyone of a damn thing. We know who wants war. We know who wants peace. Give it a rest already!

This is a discussion forum.
This is a discussion.

If you don't like it, don't read it.

No, seriously- how is this any different from the last 6 "discussions" on this topic that we've had? It's more you and a few others spouting the same old propaganda you spouted last time, only to be answered by the same people spewing the same propagnda that they keep rolling out each and every time.

I mean look at it- smoking gun/no smoking gun, Bush is doing it for oil, Iraq is a threat/ no threat, Bush is a moron/not a moron, anybody who believes "_____" is a moron, Iraq can't attack us domestically, and then it will at some point soon just devolve into calling Kyoukan names until someone finally derails it.

I like a good political discussion as much as anyone, but c'mon, bring something new at least.

[kyoukan]

Yet if the situation was reversed, Americans would be foaming at the mouth and screaming that American's rights are being trampled on by the evil Europeans.

You can't detain and hold nationals from other countries for no other reasons that "try and stop us, you fags."

[noel]

I agree. We would be foaming at the mouth.

I disagree that we can't do it though. We are doing it. The length of time we will continue to do it will be inversely proportional to the pressure put on us by the European community.

[kyoukan]

I mean you can't in the sense that you can't if you don't want to come off like a bunch of arrogant, imperialist shitfuckers who incorrectly think they rule the world.

Obviously you can technically. I know Canada has a few Americans held that the government wants back so they can give them the electric chair in whatever barbaric state they commited crimes in.

[noel]

The thing is. I have yet to see the exact dissertation on each prisoner, where they were found, under what conditions, etc. I don't know that members of the public have seen any of that. I don't know whether members of foreign government or military have publically or privately seen any of that.

I see several options though:

-They were in Afganistan praying in a mosque.
-They were in Afganistan hiding in their homes.
-They were in Afganistan denouncing terrorism.
-They were minding their own business.
-They were found in a 'terrorist camp' (I use that term loosely).
-They were involved in an armed conflict with allied forces.

Given the difficulty of holding prisoners, the cost associated, and the public scrutiny, I find it hard to believe that the US would hold these individuals just to 'come off like a bunch of arrogant, imperialist shitfuckers who incorrectly think they rule the world.'

[kyoukan]

It's a violation of international law to hold citizens of another country without adequate representation from the country they hail from.

[noel]

I haven't seen a plane crash into a single building since 9-11 (suicidal kid in FL excluded), so I'm not going to lose a lot of sleep over that.

[Brotha]

USA asked to use U2s. Now they are allowed to. Ever happy?

How does this pertain to what I said about photographs being taken on Nov. 20? Relevance please.

Convincing argument!

My point was that nuclear weapons help to keep the peace (keep countries in line). I don't see you disputing this.

Yeah 2 governments support it without a Security Council resolution afaik. England and Spain. Neither will for long because it is political suicide unless the public opinion changes. Btw the support for the war in USA is sinking as well.. hum maybe that is why Bush has to rush it!

If you think that those are the only 2 governments that support us than you are even more clueless than you sound. Try to keep up on current events.

Oh and you seem to forget that the peacekeeping force on Balkan was highly international, if you claim USA did that alone.. well.. heh.

Europe didn't do shit until it was too late (which is what I said).

Are you going to dispute anything I say or keep heaping on more bullshit?

/agree Aranuil on the PoW camp. If holding them helps save American lives, I could careless what Europe thinks.

[kyoukan]

capturing and illegally imprisoning european muslims saves american lives?

this a whole new layer of stupid that we have barely begun to scratch the surface of.

[noel]

These so-called 'europeans' muslims were captured in Afganistan, not in Europe.

[Braxter]

Your rant actually proves my case for me. Your type hates true freedom, you hate religion, you hate conservatism, you hate George Bush, you hate the free exchange of ideas. You have to support a blemish on history like Saddam because you've boxed yourself in with empty-headed lowest-common-denominator follow-the-Hillary mindlessness.

You're equating Freedom with George Bush? err

his administration is responsible for the most egregious violations of the consitution since the mcarthy era.

Due Process anyone?

[miir]

In Bizarro World, bin Laden encouraging Iraqis to martyr themselves and defend themselves against the Americans equates to Saddam Hussein having close links with Al Qaeda.


Why the fuck would bin Laden want anything to do with Saddam Hussein?
Saddam and his cronies are secular, socialist infidels.... an insult to true muslims.

[Ocelott]

LOL Mirr,, You are too damn funny. Thanks for the laughs, to help the work day go by faster.

If you don't think it's possible to smuggle a nuke into the US you are about as fucking stupid as you sound. LOL I guess smuggling tons of drugs into the US is not possible or that people don't really smuggle a shit load of cars out each year.

It doesn't bother me being called stupid by someone with obviously lower then average intelligence.

So please crawl back to your own country Rainman. You obviously don't know Dick about the US.. Well you might know OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS about Dick but thats you and yours.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Your rant actually proves my case for me. Your type hates true freedom, you hate religion, you hate conservatism, you hate George Bush, you hate the free exchange of ideas. You have to support a blemish on history like Saddam because you've boxed yourself in with empty-headed lowest-common-denominator follow-the-Hillary mindlessness.

You're equating Freedom with George Bush? err

his administration is responsible for the most egregious violations of the consitution since the mcarthy era.

Due Process anyone?

huh? lol

[miir]

If you don't think it's possible to smuggle a nuke into the US you are about as fucking stupid as you sound. LOL I guess smuggling tons of drugs into the US is not possible or that people don't really smuggle a shit load of cars out each year

It's not as easy as you make it out to be.


If it were so easy, and Saddam Hussien has the means, why has he not done it?

Why has Al Qaeda not smuggled a tactical nuclear device into the USA and detonated it?





Comparing drug smuggling to smuggling a nuclear device is idiotic.
Apples to Watermelons.


Sure, there is always a risk of some psycho detonating a dirty bomb in an urban area, but the chances are higher that the bomb would have been made in the good ole USA.

Terrorists would be more likely to steal some weapons grade plutonium and construct a nuclear device on american soil, than they would smuggle one from halfway across the world.




Ocelott, please refrain from owning me with your clever flames about my inteligence and your 'rainman' comparisons.
My feeling is so hurt.

[vn_Tanc]

Oh and check out Saddam's lastest tape, calling for the Muslims of the world to support Iraq.

You're not confusing that with the Bin Laden tape are you? Asking them to support the "Iraqi People" (note NOT the Iraqi regime).
I know the TV has been trying to tell you Saddam and Osama are the same thing but please at least TRY to think for yourself a little bit.
This annoys me a lot actually, because lately there has been some good convincing shit around that had me moving away from my "no war" stance. But bullshit spin-doctored scare-mongering propoganda like this is an insult to my intelligence and just reinforces my distrust of sabre-rattling governments. If you want my support for a war then persuade me but don't try to scare me into it.

I'd also like to thank Aranuil for so succinctly representing the isolationist, war-mongering, blindly patriotic, spoonfed-by-TV, cock-waving, USA#1 fuck-the-UN-we-rule-the-civilized-world faction. "We'll do what we want cos we've got the biggest guns wut ar u gonna do about it FAGZ0RZ" is the thinking that got you in this shit in the first place.
You talk about defending freedom and civilization while insulting anyone who disagrees with you or your staggeringly abolutist, retarded with-us-or-against-us standpoint, belittling the intentions of nations that favour a more measured, less gung-ho approach and generally jump up and down with your hands over your ears screaming "LALALALALALALALALA!!!1!" when anyone picks a hole in your argument that can only be countered with the "cos we want to and we have teh bombz" response. The simple fact is that most of you have been conditioned to want this war and not think too deeply about it. Which is why the war-fans so often get pwned here and resort to typing slogans in capitals.

Yeah I'm sick of this fucking argument too. I'm sick of being asked to live on my knees by a government who continues to disregard the wishes of the population in general "for our own good". I'm sick of being asked to accept a reduction in liberty in return for an increase in security. I'm sick of being told the only response to people who hate you is to kill them all everylastoneofthem! I'm sick of being asked to approve a war due to the failure to prove the non-existence of something when proof of non-existence is impossible (see the ever more ridiculous claims above about where these weapons are being hidden). I certainly don't enjoy living in a world where people are learning to hate anyone with white skin due to actions being carried out "for my benefit" but without my approval.

And if all that leaves me a little testy, tough

[Ocelott]

I'm just saying that it is possible. Not that is it easy. Hell, it wasn't easy for the 9-11 thing to be pulled off. Most people would not have thought it was possible.

And your right.. Odds are if they do get one to detonate here it would probably have a good ol "Made in the USA" sticker on it.
I actually agreed with "some" of the stuff you were saying. You are the one that started off with the flames. I just replied back with the attitude that was given me.

I was just curious what everyone considered a "smoking gun". I've been listening to the news and everyone seems to have a different opinion on it.

[masteen]

Why has Al Qaeda not smuggled a tactical nuclear device into the USA and detonated it?

Because they can't get their hands on a nuke.

If it were so easy, and Saddam Hussien has the means, why has he not done it?

Because this would immediately result in the nation of Iraq being converted into a glowing green glass parking lot.

[Xanupox]

To those of you that are ignorant of just how the world turns:

I am in full support of massing troops in Kuwait then finally moving into Iraq to finish a job that should have been completed over 12 years ago.

That job is to remove a man that is out of control, in respect to how the free nations of the world rule thier people. Sadam, with or without weapons of mass destruction now, has done MORE than enough to justify a full invasion of his nation to remove him from power. This is the same man who ordered his military to invade another country just 12 years ago, destroying cities, villages, slaying thousands of people in an innocent nation of Kuwait. This man has slew and continues to suppress the citizens of his OWN nation to the point where they live in utter terror and fear.

Forget the oil, forget the weapons of mass destruction. This comes down to either you support a man that is a living deamon, or you stand up against him and remove him to liberate the people he has enslaved.

There are hundreds of debates, motives and drives behind thousands of people that are involved in this whole situation. Regardless though, the final outcome will be the man of terror is removed. This mans potential for future terror and destruction will no longer exist.

The last 12 years of my life I have had to goto the region of Saudi/Kuwait/Iraq on numerous occasions. I have had to do my "time" my "rotation" to the "sand box". I am personally tired of having to do this. This should not be something I am required to do. We should have dealth with this problem, the problem of Saddam long ago.

If making a short term large sacrafice now, means the long term pain will go away, then I am willing to make that sacrafice. The last 12 years has required the presence of the UN, the US military, UK military and other partners in mass in areas of southwest asia. This presence was required to maintain the UN mandated no fly zones over Iraq, both south and north.

If something is not done, do we just keep maintaining to just maintain? How many more years is enough? Is it indefinate? It will be unless we do something to change the political structure of Iraq and remove the threat to the region, which is the Saddam Regime.

I dont care what it takes, what sacrafice I have to make, to just finally close this chapter of the book and end this seemingly neverending mess the world has forged, that the USA must maintain vigil over.

If in 6 months or 2 years from now, we can finally pull out of Iraq, pull out of Saudi, close the doors on the Operation Southern/Northern Watches... then it will be worth it. Doing nothing, cannot be an option.

You may not be in the military, but someone you know is most likely, and maybe that person has had to do a tour there, or they know someone who has. It is not somewhere you want to be.. it is not somewhere we should still be, not for this long after the initial reason we went there. 12 years is too long with no end in sight... end it now.. I support whatever means it takes.

[Gurugurumaki]

Hory shit, I actuarly agree with Pox~

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Vn_Tanc wrote:

You're not confusing that with the Bin Laden tape are you? Asking them to support the "Iraqi People" (note NOT the Iraqi regime).

So if he said support the American people, it wouldn't mean the American regime(American government)????

Dumb ass!

[miir]

. This is the same man who ordered his military to invade another country just 12 years ago, destroying cities, villages, slaying thousands of people in an innocent nation of Kuwait.

Slant drilling into another contries oil supplies makes Kuwait innocent?
Iraq invaded Kuwait and blew the wells that were slant drilling into their oil reserves.

If another country attempted to steal American resources, I'd hate to see the consequences.

Kuwiat is the home of a large percentage of radical Muslims. I have no doubt that Al Qaeda has a sizeable pressence in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

This man has slew and continues to suppress the citizens of his OWN nation to the point where they live in utter terror and fear.

It's no different than countless countries in the middle east, asia, south east asia, africa and south america. Is it Americas duty to invade every country that has committed human rights violations? What makes Iraq any different?

Three letters : O-I-L

Is the good ole USA going to invade China next?
China is guilty of just as many human rights violations as Iraq.... if not more.



I can't even bother to respond to the rest of your post.
You're so fucking brainwashed by your government it's disturbing.



either you support a man that is a living deamon, or you stand up against him and remove him to liberate the people he has enslaved

Iraqis don't want to be liberated.
The government is secular and socialist.

It's the closest thing to democracy in any middle eastern country.


Fuck man, are you honestly that stupid?

[miir]

So if he said support the American people, it wouldn't mean the American regime(American government)????

Dumb ass!

You need to learn more about religion and politics in the middle east.