Colin Powell makes the case

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 5, 2003, 12:43 pm

listening to audio tape right now.

if you are at work, i'm fairly sure msnbc.com has a live stream.

so far, so bad for Iraq.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » February 5, 2003, 1:03 pm

Did you expect anything else? The only thing I understand so far is that no matter what anyone else says.....war.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 5, 2003, 1:06 pm

actually i didnt know what to expect.

i didnt know if the evidence he would present would be convincing.

it isnt overwhelming, there is no 'smoking gun', but i think it is enough to get the votes.

and that was not a foregone conclusion by any stretch of the imagination. most noteably the audio tapes of military people talking about moving equipment the day before a UN inspection was to take place.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » February 5, 2003, 1:11 pm

Must.......find.......Audio.......Stream........

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 5, 2003, 2:33 pm

TeurdeCT wrote:Did you expect anything else? The only thing I understand so far is that no matter what anyone else says.....war.

It's convincing enough for me. I doubt a nuke shoved up your ass, chemical agents applied liberally to your nuts, and being spoon fed anthrax would be enough convince the US haters so why bother.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 5, 2003, 2:39 pm

The detailed graphics of the trucks was pretty, some proof that these trucks actually existed would be nice. Without real proof my opinion hasn't changed.

But I have serious doubts about the Magic Bullet Theory also so I'm clearly one of these "US haters".

Shaerra · Post by **Shaerra** » February 5, 2003, 2:45 pm

Easy to play the role of liberal pussy when you're so detatched from the situation, isn't it?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 5, 2003, 2:48 pm

Shaerra wrote:Easy to play the role of liberal pussy when you're so detatched from the situation, isn't it?

How exactly are you more attached to the situation?

Deward · Post by **Deward** » February 5, 2003, 2:50 pm

I wasn't sure about the evidence before today but I think Powell's presentation was pretty convincing. I thought his proof was good. Although I still believe that the government has it's own personal reasons for war, I think they laid out enough evidence to justify getting rid of Saddam Hussein.

Their information about terrorist groups setting up shop in Baghdad and NE Iraq was good stuff. I think some people just refuse to believe anything until it comes up and hits them in the back of the head with a 2x4.

Deward

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 5, 2003, 2:57 pm

It's not our fucking job to find proof. It was Iraq's job to provide proof that it was disarming. Read the UN resolution you tards!

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » February 5, 2003, 2:58 pm

Shaerra wrote:Easy to play the role of liberal pussy when you're so detatched from the situation, isn't it?

Kinda ironic that you're calling someone else a "liberal pussy"...

sorry =P couldn't resist..

Mawafu · Post by **Mawafu** » February 5, 2003, 2:59 pm

Looking for a transcript of this (since no audio at work). If anyone finds it before I do could you post a link please? Thanks

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » February 5, 2003, 3:00 pm

Saddam's a twit, but a wiley twit. We can just hope he goes into exile. The inner city fighting is gonna be ugly, our marines are the best in the biz, but there is nothing pretty, or clean cut about fighting in a city. This will mean casualties, just a sad fact.

Ajran · Post by **Ajran** » February 5, 2003, 3:00 pm

Here is a partial from CNN so far..

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/02/05/sprj.i ... index.html

Midnyte_Ragebringer · February 5, 2003, 3:01 pm

I would prefer to listen to the audio of the presentation, or video. If anyone gets a link it would be much appreciated indeed.

Gung · Post by **Gung** » February 5, 2003, 3:07 pm

Same here, Forthe.

USA has showed many pictures of trucks and buildings in the past.

They have done an admirable job of proving there are both trucks and buildings in Iraq.
<applause>

They have also showed new pictures of bunkers. Some are circled in yellow. Some are circled in red. The ones circled in red are "chemical bunkers!". The proof lies in the color of the circle!

The only other "evidence" were audio from allegedly covertly taped conversations and transmissions. "Evidence" that's not admissable in any court in the United States to being with. Furthermore, the United States took the liberty of translating, editing, and presenting these "conversations" to ensure favorable context and wording -- make sure they sound appropriately incrimination and sinister. How nice of them.

I'm not convinced there is a need to bomb the shit out of Iraq. I *am* convinced Saddam is a bad dude. But so far there is just no hard proof Saddam has any womd. All we have are pictures of buildings that "could possibly contain" contraband items or trucks that "could possibly contain" contraband items, and conjecture from portions of US-provided , US-Translated Arabic conversations that we have no way of
verifying the validty of. At best we have to speculate based on this heresay, which again is not even admissable under US law in most states. Heh.

Powell disappointed me. He provided no more evidence, at all.

Next thing we're gonna see is an anonymously submitted photo of Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain sitting on a couch in one of Saddam's palaces. depicting the two "friends" watching replays of 9/11 together.

And of course, Powell will call a Security Council meeting and prevent this new evidence in fine style!

Gung

Acies · Post by **Acies** » February 5, 2003, 3:08 pm

It truly does not matter. How Bush managed to turn heads from the Terrorists who attacked us to old family feud sparring partner is beyond me.
He has lost my re-election vote.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » February 5, 2003, 3:18 pm

Gung wrote:Same here, Forthe.

USA has showed many pictures of trucks and buildings in the past.

They have done an admirable job of proving there are both trucks and buildings in Iraq.
<applause>

They have also showed new pictures of bunkers. Some are circled in yellow. Some are circled in red. The ones circled in red are "chemical bunkers!". The proof lies in the color of the circle!

The only other "evidence" were audio from allegedly covertly taped conversations and transmissions. "Evidence" that's not admissable in any court in the United States to being with. Furthermore, the United States took the liberty of translating, editing, and presenting these "conversations" to ensure favorable context and wording -- make sure they sound appropriately incrimination and sinister. How nice of them.

I'm not convinced there is a need to bomb the shit out of Iraq. I *am* convinced Saddam is a bad dude. But so far there is just no hard proof Saddam has any womd. All we have are pictures of buildings that "could possibly contain" contraband items or trucks that "could possibly contain" contraband items, and conjecture from portions of US-provided , US-Translated Arabic conversations that we have no way of
verifying the validty of. At best we have to speculate based on this heresay, which again is not even admissable under US law in most states. Heh.

Powell disappointed me. He provided no more evidence, at all.

Next thing we're gonna see is an anonymously submitted photo of Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain sitting on a couch in one of Saddam's palaces. depicting the two "friends" watching replays of 9/11 together.

And of course, Powell will call a Security Council meeting and prevent this new evidence in fine style!

Gung

I only wish there was a way to strap all these fucking un-patriotic liberal moron's to our missles before we send them in. You guys could be martyr's. Wake up!

**EDIT** I hope they round all you people up and intern your asses when the shit hits the fan.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/usspy.html

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 5, 2003, 3:20 pm

Acies wrote:It truly does not matter. How Bush managed to turn heads from the Terrorists who attacked us to old family feud sparring partner is beyond me.
He has lost my re-election vote.

How shallow can you be? If you think this is just a family feud you've got a long way to go before a clue is even on the horizon for you.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 5, 2003, 3:22 pm

Mort, they are Canadians. Just wait for Kyoukan and Miir to step in with their insight.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 5, 2003, 3:23 pm

Mort wrote:I only wish there was a way to strap all these fucking un-patriotic liberal moron's to our missles before we send them in. You guys could be martyr's. Wake up!

lol he pulled out the un-patriotic card.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » February 5, 2003, 3:23 pm

I'm not sure you can say a smoking gun was found, but certainly evidence of the smell of smoke, powder residue, and extensive accounts of moving that gun were presented. And with the re-iteration and amplification of what that gun is capable of, it was a pretty sobering brief.

The most disturbing aspect of the meeting was the presentation of the extent at which Iraq is hiding material, and the impact that presentation had on the other nations: almost none. Many are still stating that they want the inspections to go on, that the presentation only re-enforces the fact that more and better inspections are needed. It seems pretty clear to me that we could run open loop on that task for months on end without ever finding anything.

If the presentation was accurate, then Iraq has developed the expertiese and become the world leader in hiding chemical and biological research and production facilities (making them mobile on trains and trucks in some cases). Also, Iraq has employed all manner of deception in their dealings with the inspectors. If the other representatives believe that aspect of the presentation, how can they be convinced that more time would yield some discovery? Is Iraq to suddenly say "you got me, ok, here is the real truth".

Russia basically said "show me the raw data" - I'd like to see them get it (if it can be provided), and come to the same conclusions. I am disappointed in some of the responses by the other nations, but then again, perhaps they do not believe the data presented by the US. Maybe they dont want to believe it.

I certainly do not want war, and I will admit, I was on the fence. I work for the Navy, and believe me, War is bad for business (program cuts across the board and it makes coordinating tests a nightmare). It's bad on a human scale, of course, and whether it is good for the economy or not remains to be seen. It's not even a guarentee that it is good, politically: just look at George Sr not getting re-elected. But now, I have to say that some of what was presented scared the crap out of me, quite frankly, and something needs to be done.

Knowing that a former expert in torture, who as leader has gassed his own citizens (and now reported experimented on "death-row" inmates), in short is not shy about harming others in the cruelests ways known to man, now has developed an infrastructure of deception regarding his capablilities, that he been tying together biological and chemical agents with experimentations in unmanned aerial vehicles, and is actively seeking longer range missiles is pretty god damn frightening. I just hope the UN comes around. I'd hate for the US to start something without the full buy-in of the UN, but I'd be a lot more understanding of our government now, in light of that brief, because it is pretty damn clear that Iraq will do anything to maintain their business as usual.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 5, 2003, 3:33 pm

My basic problem is how everything is presented as "known" or "fact".

Stuff like the aluminum tubes and the Iraq\Al Quada links. The administration must know that those arguments are extremely weak, both these are unsupported and more unlikely than likely.

When the argument is being pushed with these weak points being presented as 100% proven points of fact it weakens the entire argument. How is one to take anything they state as fact as true.

The argument comes across not as a presentation of proof but more like a sales pitch.

Gung · Post by **Gung** » February 5, 2003, 3:46 pm

Yah, your liberation missles right?

Bush and the USA will "liberate" Iraq like senator Palpatine liberated the republic.

A power hungry warmonger ignores a coalition of democratic nations to further his own greedy ambitions.

Bush and Powell are Warmongers. Bloody warmongers.

There are so many fine senators, congressmen/women and democratic leaders that are not buying into Bush administration's propaganda. These people give me hope. But I'm afraid they -- along with the rest of the international community -- are powerless to stop the Bush/Powell war machine.

Who's next? Canada? France? Who else will the USA declare to be supports of terrorists, or developers of weapons of mass destruction? Who else will they terrorize, without the support or backing of the international community? Where will it end?

Remeber that time Hitler liberated Poland? Everyone kinda just turned the other cheek. If we (the world) turn the other cheek on Iraq and allow Bush to invade Iraq based on heresay, conjecture, and circumsantial evidence , where will it end?

What kind of precedent does that set?

It is not the UN that is undermining itself -- it's the US underming the UN.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » February 5, 2003, 3:47 pm

I'm not sure if 'unsupported' is the right word, because I believe Powell suggested corroboration on the significant points. Whether the other nations believe these data or not could be an issue, so maybe it is safest to say they are 'unverified', at least for the moment.

As for the tubes, I tend to believe what the US has to say on that one. There's a difference between building a Chevy or a Lexus regarding tollerances for building missiles. If you can get away with the Chevy specs, that is what you are going to use. What was suggested was more the building of a Bently or Rolls. Make no mistake, those were some damn expensive tubes to make. Even a ridiculously rich country would not go to such tight specs.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » February 5, 2003, 3:47 pm

Winnow wrote:
Acies wrote:It truly does not matter. How Bush managed to turn heads from the Terrorists who attacked us to old family feud sparring partner is beyond me.
He has lost my re-election vote.
How shallow can you be? If you think this is just a family feud you've got a long way to go before a clue is even on the horizon for you.

Winnow, I know you have this thing with trying to hit me on occassions, but really, that made no sense.
How does that remark make me "shallow"? The family feud was used as an expression between the Bush's and Hussien's hatred of eachother. I guess apparently I am shallow because of that... yeah...
/shrug

Honestly, if you think this is about defending America from some two-bit pussy dictator who has the weaponry equivilant to a Pinto when compared to our Hum-Vee, then I contend it is YOU that needs to grasp a clue and perhaps take your ass off the monitor so you can pay attention.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » February 5, 2003, 3:47 pm

There is really no way to present any type of proof that will be 100% is there? I mean, sat photos could be doctored, eyewtiness testimony could be false, hard evidence found could have come from some place else. anything short of Saddam saying on camera *we have the weapons* will be shoved aside by people that do not think we should go to war, and any photo showing a truck in Iraq will be enough for pro-war people to say I told you so. Lose lose situation.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » February 5, 2003, 3:48 pm

I guess I'm one of those liberals, because I vote Democrat except on rare occasions (granted, this was my first election), and up till now I've been pretty leery of attacking. I would like to have peace, but that doesn't appear to be an option. I thought Powell presented his case very well. I won't be voting for Bush in the election, but I think that some of the things show that Iraq is in material breach. Let's go in, fight him, and go home.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » February 5, 2003, 3:50 pm

Remeber that time Hitler liberated Poland?

Remember the world waiting and waiting and waiting for Germany to comply and cease thier aggression, giving them chance after chance? You sure picked a strange analogy to try and make your point.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » February 5, 2003, 3:51 pm

Captain Ibraham?
I'm with you sir.
Remove.
Remove.
Nerve Agents.
Nerve Agents.
From the wireless instructions.
From the instructions.
Wireless.
Wireless.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » February 5, 2003, 3:52 pm

Gung wrote:Yah, your liberation missles right?

Bush and the USA will "liberate" Iraq like senator Palpatine liberated the republic.

A power hungry warmonger ignores a coalition of democratic nations to further his own greedy ambitions.

Bush and Powell are Warmongers. Bloody warmongers.

There are so many fine senators, congressmen/women and democratic leaders that are not buying into Bush administration's propaganda. These people give me hope. But I'm afraid they -- along with the rest of the international community -- are powerless to stop the Bush/Powell war machine.

Who's next? Canada? France? Who else will the USA declare to be supports of terrorists, or developers of weapons of mass destruction? Who else will they terrorize, without the support or backing of the international community? Where will it end?

Remeber that time Hitler liberated Poland? Everyone kinda just turned the other cheek. If we (the world) turn the other cheek on Iraq and allow Bush to invade Iraq based on heresay, conjecture, and circumsantial evidence , where will it end?

What kind of precedent does that set?

It is not the UN that is undermining itself -- it's the US underming the UN.

And then Anikin will become Darth Vader and take his spot next to the emperor. Then a rebel alliance will form and they will show those damn Imperials who is boss.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » February 5, 2003, 3:57 pm

ROFL, Darth Bush

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 5, 2003, 3:57 pm

Acies wrote: the weaponry equivilant to a Pinto when compared to our Hum-Vee

Recommend you find another comparison here...Pintos = Da Bomb...Literally...

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 5, 2003, 4:02 pm

that is pretty much my opinion summed up Kalduar.

i have been kind of on the fence most of the time. No i dont think the sattellite photos of putative chemical facilities or cartoons of mobile biological labs were damning.

the audio tapes of military people clearly trying to subvert the UN Inspection process were absolutely a material breech.

At least one member of the security council speaks Arabic, and to this point i havent heard him make a big stink about mistranslatoin (but i did go to lunch), so i think we can all accept - for the purpose of the thread - that the translation was accurate. now are we to believe the tapes are of Iraqi military? that is for you to decide. I imagine that documentation can be provided to those who it needs to be provided to.

My whole view all along is that it was in the best interest of all parties for the process to go through the United Nations. I think most can be satisfied that has now happened. I continue to think it is in the best interest of all parties for the coming military conflict to be under the umbrella of the UN.

I think in the end France will come on board because making the Security Council irrelevant removes the only bit of global influence they still desperately cling to (other than a champagne embargo

).

I think Colin Powell is somebody with solid integrity, and I don't think he would be complicitous in a total fabrication of data.

By the wording of 1441, i think the US demonstrated today that Iraq was in material breech of the resolution.

So what remains is whether or not the security council will sanction the war that looms.

Oggie: an aside on whether the war will help the economy. According to the Wall Street Journal (yesterday A8 or A9) it will not. Any increase in defense spending relative to the GDP is negligible at this point in our economy. It only appears as a blip on the radar now because we are in a period of virtually no growth. THe decrease in stability of markets will have a greater negative impact on the economy, than the small amount of money injected due to war spending.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » February 5, 2003, 4:02 pm

rofl Arb

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » February 5, 2003, 4:03 pm

Alright, one more time for you stupid fucks who can't be bothered to read.

In November of last year, the United Nations passed resolution 1441. (Note: The UNITED NATIONS, not the United States) Resolution 1441 states that Saddam Hussein must prove he has destroyed his WoMDs. It does not say that anyone must prove he has them, because the security council is quite aware that he has them.

If you were able to watch Powell's presentation this morning and come to any conclusion other than that Saddam is doing everything he can short of shooting inspectors to hide weapons, then you are one head-in-the-sand motherfucker.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 5, 2003, 4:04 pm

PS:

The Hajj is this coming weekend.

war was never going to happen until that was completed.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 5, 2003, 4:19 pm

Ogbar,

The argument on the tubes is total speculation. Just as likely an assumption is that whoever Iraq found to sell them the tubes, covertly through the sanctions, put the screws to iraq. If you go to a car salesmen from a disadvantaged position which car do you think he will try to sell you. Again pure speculation but no less posible.

What is not speculation is Iraq is more advanced in its nuclear research than the enrichment method which uses these tubes. It doesn't make sense for Iraq to use this process.

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » February 5, 2003, 4:25 pm

Its called the Veto right Sabek, and its been abused by several countries including the US since the foundation of the UN.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » February 5, 2003, 4:31 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Alright, one more time for you stupid fucks who can't be bothered to read.

In November of last year, the United Nations passed resolution 1441. (Note: The UNITED NATIONS, not the United States) Resolution 1441 states that Saddam Hussein must prove he has destroyed his WoMDs. It does not say that anyone must prove he has them, because the security council is quite aware that he has them.

If you were able to watch Powell's presentation this morning and come to any conclusion other than that Saddam is doing everything he can short of shooting inspectors to hide weapons, then you are one head-in-the-sand motherfucker.

The resolution was only put forth to put and end to U.S.A.'s increase in "We will make war and kill you" talk, maybe give it validation.
Bush liked it because it DID, in essence, give him validation. Unless, of course Saddam complied, which he has not.
Still, I do not care what reason is put forth, my belief is that Saddam cannot threaten us, we really should not even be there. If we are there to "liberate" Iraq from a tyrrant, well we will need to work against the majority of Asia, then South America, then some of Europe. Yeah...

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » February 5, 2003, 4:33 pm

Cracc wrote:Its called the Veto right Sabek, and its been abused by several countries including the US since the foundation of the UN.

Are you refering to my Darth Vader comment?
If so I was making a joke about absolutely ignorant it sounds to introduce a Star Wars reference into a discussion about real world politics.
I wasn't saying we should or shouldn't go to war.

gung wrote:Bush and the USA will "liberate" Iraq like senator Palpatine liberated the republic.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » February 5, 2003, 4:44 pm

Forthe wrote:Ogbar,

The argument on the tubes is total speculation. Just as likely an assumption is that whoever Iraq found to sell them the tubes, covertly through the sanctions, put the screws to iraq. If you go to a car salesmen from a disadvantaged position which car do you think he will try to sell you. Again pure speculation but no less posible.

What is not speculation is Iraq is more advanced in its nuclear research than the enrichment method which uses these tubes. It doesn't make sense for Iraq to use this process.

I'll agree there is a lot of speculation here, and this is perhaps the weakest element of the presentation.

My only point is that you don't pay dearly for extra precision that is not needed. I was involved in a program that required the manufacture of cylindrical components made from a much harder material than aluminum (high grade steel). I know from experience how costly it can be to move to half or quarter your precision increment. But if you need it, you dont have much choice, and I tended to believe Powell's assertion that such precisions would not be needed for the reasons the Iraqis claim.

I admit that I got the sense from watching the presentation live that this is not the sort of "car" that would be on the salesman's lot, but rather something you ordered, custom. In looking back through the transcript, however, I'll concede that there is more silence on this issue than substance. Like I said earlier, this is perhaps the weakest point of the brief.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 5, 2003, 4:52 pm

on that note though Oggie, the CIA chief was in attendance with Powell, and he was going to be available to provide some more information to security council members behind closed doors.

obviously nothing we can really know about all that

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » February 5, 2003, 5:05 pm

Don't be dense, Acies. Read some history.

This isn't the first resolution to force Saddam to disarm. They date far back before the Bush presidency.

You don't find it the least bit odd that these resolution don't ask for proof? That they all demand disarmament?

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » February 5, 2003, 5:06 pm

Good point, Vor. Oh, to be a fly on the wall at those sessions.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » February 5, 2003, 5:07 pm

They stated beforehand there wasn't going to be any "smoking gun" in the presentation. Just a collection of (quite likely) verfiable information to prove the case that Sadam isn't playing clean and is in violation of the latest UN resolution.

I'd imagine quite a bit more information was available outside of the public view.

When it comes down to it, he will shield himself with his own people, just as he's done before.

The fighting will be short and messy, and we'll have another unstable regime in the middle east when all is said and done.

Better or worse? No way of knowing. Leaving him there would be a mistake, while removing him might be a problem in the long term.

Gung · Post by **Gung** » February 5, 2003, 5:10 pm

Sabek: I figured it would be less provacative to compare Bush to a fictional character like Palpatine than to someone like Hitler or Saddam.
Besides, Palpatine's political position and situation were much the same as Bush's. Fiction or Non fiction

How about this. Bush/Powell will invade and conquer Iraq for much the same reason as Saddam invaded Kuwait -- for control of the oil.

BOOM.

I also liked how in the state of the union address, Bush tried to emphasize that his administration would be liberating the people of Iraq from opression, and would "restore their God-given freedom".

LoL. Yeah liberate them from an opression of UN sanctions, in the name of a god they don't even recognize.

This kind of US foreign policy is going is only going to spark more anti-US retaliation from Arab nations. And, unfortunately, the retaliation is probably going to come in the form of terrorism. Provoked terrorism, but terrorism nontheless.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » February 5, 2003, 5:12 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Don't be dense, Acies. Read some history.

This isn't the first resolution to force Saddam to disarm. They date far back before the Bush presidency.

You don't find it the least bit odd that these resolutions don't ask for proof? That they all demand disarmament?

Oh I know bro, not being dense.
My thoughts on the matter are really have nothing to do with the U.N. resloutions, rather just an opinion: The United States does not need to be there at all. Frankly, I cannot understand why Saddam is such an issue, being a comparative small fry in the "threat" scale.
Maybe they scale differant between calibar of weapons and psychological profiling to use them.
/shrug

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » February 5, 2003, 5:13 pm

LoL. Yeah liberate them from an opression of UN sanctions, in the name of a god they don't even recognize.

But they WILL know him...Yes. They will....

MWAHAHAHAHAHA

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 5, 2003, 5:16 pm

regime change may provoke bad stuff down the road, but Iraqi's may actually be happier under a new government, where international investment in their country exists.

where they are paid salaries 100x, 1000x, 10000x higher than they are paid currently (like $500 a year or somethign now).

if they have jobs and food on the table and safety in the streets for their kids, i think there is more possibility for stability than maybe we are giving them credit for.

Iraqi's view themselves as really the seat of civilization, so they are a proud culture. Of course they wont be willing to trade one brand of political impotency for a different brand of economic impotency. They will have to have a stake in the future, and that is where our greed may be a problem, not necessarily their fanaticism.