CT Shooting: 26 dead - 20 kindergarten kids 6 adults

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 14, 2012, 3:27 pm

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/14/sh ... ?hpt=hp_t1

I got this update in my email and just reading the headline has gotten me completely shaken and in tears. I simply cannot imagine the pain the parents of the 18 children killed at this elementary school are going through. There are very little details right now in regards to the shooter, but it sounds like he was older (not a Columbine comparison). There's simply no way one can explain killing elementary children. No child should die this young.

Update: Supposedly a second gunman now in custody (first is dead, unknown how). So two people this fucked up.. somehow makes it worse. It implies two people planned on killing children this young intentionally.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » December 14, 2012, 3:55 pm

Two days after the mall shooting a few miles away from me. Mass shootings are happening more and more in this country. This one is so much worse being that there are so many children that were killed. What the fuck drives someone to gain attention in this manner?

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 14, 2012, 5:27 pm

Most recent info I've read indicates a 24 year old who ~~went to the school to kill his mother~~ killed his mother at his house and then for whatever reason when to the school where she was a teacher and killed the kids of her class. The principal and guidance counselor were also killed. The children killed were kindergarten aged (~5 years old, like my daughter) and were, if I read correctly, in the same classroom/area. The killings were concentrated in that one area so it doesn't seem the intent was to walk through killing everyone.

There's simply no words for this.

Just watched Obama's speech and he looked sincerely saddened and as though he'd been shedding tears as well.

Asheran Mojomaster · December 14, 2012, 6:49 pm

Scares the shit out of me that my son starts school in a year and a half or so. I had to hold him after I read about this

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 14, 2012, 7:51 pm

Updating subject .. 20 kids dead and 6 adults.

Picture of the principal who was killed has been posted. Really didn't need to see it, just makes me more sad.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 14, 2012, 9:06 pm

People complain about the 'misinformation' in a foreign country when an attack was made.. yet the misinformation regarding this case here at home has been constant.

The shooter's older (not younger) brother is in custody being questioned. The shooter's father is also being questioned (and not dead as previously reported). The shooter's mother was killed at the shooter's house (not the school as previously reported). So far that's what is known (or being reported).

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 14, 2012, 9:17 pm

Don't forget that the media also swarmed the home of another guy with the same name as the wrong shooter too.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 14, 2012, 9:59 pm

Apparently the police transposed the name of the shooter and the brother, so initially the brother's name was being used as the shooter.. that's a pretty big f'up imo.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 14, 2012, 10:59 pm

Greater access to mental health services, lesser access to guns. Problem solved. You're welcome, America.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 15, 2012, 12:51 am

Really don't want this thread to turn into a pro/anti gun thread, there's plenty of those here. As horrible as this is and as much as it hurts my heart to even think about, I do not believe outlawing guns would prevent situations like this. You can't snap your fingers and make the millions of guns in circulation go away. It's not hard to get one illegally.

More information.. the man found in the woods outside the school was apparently a maintenance worker from the school. I read at one point a (ex/old?) girlfriend and friend of the shooter were missing. Haven't seen any further mention of them, so they either found and questioned them or there's no new information available.

Speaking of guns, there were 3. A Glock, a Sig Sauer and a Bushmaster .223 rifle in the car. The guns were legally purchased/owned by the mother of the shooter, who ended up somehow dying to them. I guess parents don't expect their children to shoot them.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 15, 2012, 5:58 am

If the shooter could access mental health services as easily as he could access guns, this thread probably doesn't exist.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » December 15, 2012, 2:30 pm

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 15, 2012, 3:57 pm

Spang wrote:If the shooter could access mental health services as easily as he could access guns, this thread probably doesn't exist.

Almost took the bait, but no. I'd love to see where anyone has expressed that this guy had a history of mental problems or behavior. When you can do that, I'll consider your statement.

Many people have access to a gym or park but choose not to go and get healthy.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 15, 2012, 4:21 pm

For fuck sake, ignore him. I don't understand why you guys bother.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 15, 2012, 5:57 pm

Siji wrote:
Spang wrote:If the shooter could access mental health services as easily as he could access guns, this thread probably doesn't exist.
Almost took the bait, but no. I'd love to see where anyone has expressed that this guy had a history of mental problems or behavior. When you can do that, I'll consider your statement.

Many people have access to a gym or park but choose not to go and get healthy.

I have seen a few reports of people saying he had some issues, which means they knew he had issues. The problem is not that there are mental health services available, it is getting people to USE them or have their relatives get help.

I nearly threw up a couple of times yesterday at work following this. I cannot fathom what kind of evil you have to be to walk through a kindergarten classroom executing children.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 15, 2012, 6:18 pm

And the cycle continues. Someone with obvious mental health issues gathers up a bunch of handguns that are laying around his house and massacres a bunch of people. guntards say "now's not the time to discuss gun control" and people who don't understand mental health just call them evil. this thread is a microcosm of what's been going on for years. ultimately nobody gives a shit a week later and a few months from now, another load of people will get wasted by an insane person with absurdly easy access to guns.

hopefully president obama will now do something about it but he will be stopped dead by the gun lobby and a government who is not interested in "wasting money" on mental health issues.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 15, 2012, 6:41 pm

Spang can still get help before it's too late. Is it our responsibility since we can recognize he's nuts on this forum? Is it his family's responsibility? "Getting mental help" isn't as easy as some make it seem. First, the nutjob doesn't recognize they're crazy. Second, these people function in society mostly. Unibomber was a "genius". The Joker Batman killer guy was supposedly very smart according to reports. Even Spang got into college somehow.

I don't think a trillion dollars poured into mental health will stop mass killings the same as gun control will help anything except the method people are killed.

Regarding the most recent shooter:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/justice/c ... ?hpt=hp_c3

Alex Israel was in the same class at Newtown High School with Adam Lanza, who lived a few houses down from her.

"You could definitely tell he was a genius," Israel told CNN, adding she hadn't talked with him since middle school. "He was really quiet, he kept to himself."

His former bus driver, Marsha Moskowitz, told CNN affiliate WABC that he was "a nice kid, very polite" like his brother.

A former classmate told CNN affiliate WCBS that Lanza "was just a kid" -- not a troublemaker, not anti-social, not suggesting in any way that he could erupt like this.

Yep, an obvious mental case that everyone clearly recognized as so before the shooting.

So, we lock up all the genii?

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 15, 2012, 7:46 pm

Blows my mind how wrong so much released information is. Apparently now they are saying the shooter's mother is NOT a teacher at the school. And one report now says he was found with all three guns, not the two with the rifle in the car as previously reported.

Since it's obvious we're not going to escape the discussion.. exactly what gun control law would have prevented this? The guns were purchased legally by the mother. The mother was killed and the guns taken. Let's go to the extreme and say you completely ban guns in the US. Now instead of the guy killing his mother and using her guns, he buys one illegally. Then what? Who do you blame then? Is it finally totally the fault of the person doing the crime yet?

The problem here is NOT one of gun control. It's a problem of how people feel in this country specifically. How violence is considered perfectly acceptable and promoted in movies, books, magazines, etc but the flash of a boob brings down the wrath of all that is holy. No I don't think violence in these mediums truly affects most people, but it's the general point I'm trying to make. The problem is America itself, not guns. The guns are just the devices used.

That said, I think the gun lobby is a bunch of idiots. One guy I saw on TV last night seemed to be seriously implying this happened at this school because guns were banned there. He also implied that the Colorado theater was specifically picked out of the dozen nearby theaters because that one was the only one that did not allow guns. I guess if all the kindergarten kids had guns this wouldn't have happened.

There is absolutely no reason there shouldn't be mandatory background checks on every single gun purchase. INCLUDING gun shows and/or gun ownership transfers. I don't want to hear the whining about slippery slopes or invasion of privacy or any other nonsense. It's bullshit. I'm all for tougher gun laws as long as they don't ultimately prevent law abiding citizens the right to own or collect guns. Making the cool off period and mandatory background check apply to every single gun purchase is a start. Requiring a certified training course as part of a first time gun purchase is another. Hell, make it per TYPE of gun. One for handguns, one for rifles, one for 'collector' semi-automatic guns (and make the background check for these gun types even stricter). Pass laws that indicate if someone's gun is stolen and used in a crime, not only are they no longer permitted to own guns going forward but face hefty fines. (Maybe this actually exists already, I honestly don't know) Start keeping track of ammunition purchases (all of them). You're tracked for buying some over the counter medication from Walgreens because you *might* buy a thousand boxes of it and make up some drugs in your own personal home lab, but not for a hundred boxes of ammunition..

You should be allowed to own and collect guns, I'm fine with that. But it needs to be tracked.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 15, 2012, 10:16 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:For fuck sake, ignore him. I don't understand why you guys bother.

Yes, don't bother debating me, just ignore me or cut and paste definitions from out of the dictionary.

Asheran Mojomaster · December 16, 2012, 2:53 am

Guns aren't the problem. As they said, he was likely close to a genius, if not truly one. It doesn't take a high level of intelligence to read online how I make a bomb out of easily available materials. Even without guns, if a person wants to commit mass murder, it is very easy to do. Being intelligent would just make him more likely to succeed.

Obviously the guy had some mental problems. It doesn't matter what people who knew him thought of him. Some of the most successful mass murders who were true psychopaths (not that psychopathology is actually a problem in most cases), and had serious issues were described as nice, charming, polite, kind, etc.

What is observed on the outside isn't always indicative of what is going on inside. The problem with mental problems like that, is that there is no real way to see it before it starts to take over. If what has been said is true, and there really were no signs, there was no way for anyone to get him help before he did this. It would have taken him seeking help himself.

But, no matter what his mental state was, killing innocent children is pure evil.

Dakanaf · Post by **Dakanaf** » December 16, 2012, 7:13 pm

Read.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 16, 2012, 9:48 pm

That's an amazingly useful article which should get much more attention than it will.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 16, 2012, 10:50 pm

cool winnow's mom is blogging

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 16, 2012, 11:36 pm

At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who.

There's plenty of whack jobs. Almost every extended family has at least one nut case. I feel bad for the parents/caretakers. You can only pump them full of so many drugs and can't kill them legally. Throwing money at the problem won't help. Short term solution is loosening the requirements for lobotomies.

At some point you have to lock them up and only let them out to work on secret government projects.

You're always going to have a certain number of lunatics. Unless you work in a mental ward or are working on a cure, shut the fuck up as you're just spouting off about shit you don't really want to participate in first hand. There's no miracle cure and it's not the government's fault. I can't fucking stand knee jerk reactions to traumatic events thinking that someone is to blame. Obama is a huge fuck up but I don't blame him for this.

There's no fantasy land you can ship these people off too. No one wants to quadruple the loony bins. You also run the risk of throwing a few sane people in due to paranoia if you make it easier to lock people up. If you take the symptoms of the latest killer and round up all the people just like him, you're going to have a lot of kids, and adults, that need padded cells or some serious drugs. Study them all you want. Kill the ones that actually fly off the handle like the dude in Scandinavia. Study his brain after cutting open his corpse. Don't waste cell space on him after grilling them for awhile. There's plenty of other mentally disturbed people to study then haven't killed anyone yet.

So, give me an action plan. What are you going to do about it besides saying, "the government should do something!". Mental illness isn't a magic pill away from being cured. Most of the people that think so probably already have pumped their kids full of ritalin for getting a little over excited at a playground.

Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old who killed 20 children and six adults in a rampage at a Connecticut elementary school, took six classes at Western Connecticut State University in 2008 and 2009, beginning when he was just 16, and had a grade point average of 3.26.

Lanza was described by neighbors and former classmates as being very bright, but they also say he was also socially awkward and deeply troubled.

According to Paul Steinmetz, Director of University of Relations at Western Connecticut State University in Danbury, Lanza started at the school in the summer of 2008, took a couple classes that fall and then in the spring and summer of 2009.

A 16 year old attending classes rare, not unique, Steinmetz said.

He said that some high school students sign up for classes at the college if they are particularly good in some subject. He said the school has probably a few 16-year-olds every semester.

Lanza took courses in computer science, such as website design, the computer language called BASIC, and data modeling, as well as in philosophy, American history and economics.

From the linked article, the shooter seemed pretty violent towards his mother. One of my cousins fits this description to a tee. When he was a kid he had multiple violent episodes involving his family. He's been in and out of jail since around the age of 16. He pretty much destroyed my Aunt's life. Can't really do much except get a restraining order. It's not my Aunt's fault. It's not society's fault. The best solution would have been if he had never been born. Can't legally kill him now even though he completely ruined the rest of his family's life. Had plenty of insurance and his mom is an RN (super nice lady) that had plenty of access to medical help and tried it all.

So yeah, I'll vote for more money spent on researching mental conditions but don't expect any miracles. Considering how fucked up the world is, I'd expect more, not less of these things to happen. I'm all for going the "Gattica" route. If psycho traits can be identified in DNA and weeded out, human reproduction should then only be allowed by artificial insemination after being created in a test tube from pre screened eggs and sperm from the mother and father, selecting the best parts of them, while eliminating pre identified conditions. Make it so.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 17, 2012, 12:15 am

It's not often you see a Nazi eugenics plan invoked with a Star Trek reference.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 17, 2012, 1:48 am

not sure why he'd want us identifying abnormal traits in DNA and terminating the pregnancy. pretty sure the pedophile gene would get singled out pretty quick. although I guess he's already born.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 17, 2012, 11:09 am

Zaelath wrote:It's not often you see a Nazi eugenics plan invoked with a Star Trek reference.

That wasn't a Star Trek reference!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca

miir · Post by **miir** » December 17, 2012, 12:06 pm

You're dense.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » December 17, 2012, 12:26 pm

Spang wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:For fuck sake, ignore him. I don't understand why you guys bother.
Yes, don't bother debating me, just ignore me or cut and paste definitions from out of the dictionary.

Why would we "debate" such a simplistic point?

Greater access to mental health services, lesser access to guns. Problem solved. You're welcome, America.

It's not a matter of access to them it's a matter of those who may benefit from them actually seeking them out. But grats on being such an awesome problem solver.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 17, 2012, 1:59 pm

miir wrote:You're dense.

Denser per volume than a fat person.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 17, 2012, 4:01 pm

Canelek wrote:Two days after the mall shooting a few miles away from me. Mass shootings are happening more and more in this country. This one is so much worse being that there are so many children that were killed. What the fuck drives someone to gain attention in this manner?

Not sure if you saw this locally or not up there Rich....makes you wonder why the mainstream media 9including Fox) has completely ignored it.

spoiler alert: This contains material that is likely to cause denial and anger from anti-gun liberals. Proceed with caution.

http://www.easybakegunclub.com/blog/196 ... ull-S.html

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » December 17, 2012, 5:05 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Canelek wrote:Two days after the mall shooting a few miles away from me. Mass shootings are happening more and more in this country. This one is so much worse being that there are so many children that were killed. What the fuck drives someone to gain attention in this manner?

Not sure if you saw this locally or not up there Rich....makes you wonder why the mainstream media 9including Fox) has completely ignored it.

spoiler alert: This contains material that is likely to cause denial and anger from anti-gun liberals. Proceed with caution.

http://www.easybakegunclub.com/blog/196 ... ull-S.html

Yup. This is exactly the level of responsibility and solid judgement that makes CCP/CWP programs viable, even in this reactionary society. Dude showed perfect judgement and restraint when he saw that if he had fired on the gunman, he ran the risk of causing more harm. Turns out, his presence alone seemed to help the shooter along to offing himself as opposed to causing further bloodshed.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 17, 2012, 5:13 pm

haha every other reference I can google on this "hero" shows a very different story.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-a ... 93571.html

That gun club one is like breathless fan fiction.

I'm sure there's better CC stories than that one.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » December 17, 2012, 5:21 pm

Depends on how you look at it. "Hero" may not be the correct word here. Catalyst to stopping further innocent death may be more accurate.

Either way, under that kind of duress, he acted properly. Whether he prevented further carnage or not certainly can be debated, but if the gunman truly saw him and knew he was armed, the presence of opposition could have easily caused him to "give up" and find a nice hallway to blow his brains out in.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » December 17, 2012, 5:53 pm

The problem comes with people extrapolating future outcomes based on one "dude". Maybe the next time it will end up making things worse. I'm not saying it will or wont. I'm just saying you can't know for certain so I guess it just depends on which side you want to err on.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 17, 2012, 6:56 pm

Zaelath wrote:haha every other reference I can google on this "hero" shows a very different story.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-a ... 93571.html

That gun club one is like breathless fan fiction.

I'm sure there's better CC stories than that one.

The gun site...which I had actually never seen before....was based from interviews with the other people involved and had way more info than the news site. The news site gave 2 paragraphs and a 30 seconds interview with the guy.

I am sure you CAN find better instances as the number of potential murders stopped by the presence of a citizen with a firearm tops 160,000 times per year.....on the low estimate range. With the country having 14,000 or so murders in this country every year, I am going to go out on a limb and say the ratio favors the responsible citizens here.

The bottom line in these active shooter situations is that the evil fuck perpetrating them tends to take themselves out at the first sign of armed resistance. The Clackamas mall shooting was 2 victims, armed resistance seen, shooter kills himself. Newtown school, idiots kills 26, hears police coming, offs self. You can find instance after instance of this happening.

As sad and sick as this school incident was...and it still just makes me see red and my blood to boiling that someone would do this.....it is not the number 1 school massacre and neither was Virginia Tech. They only want to report school SHOOTINGS as part of their subversive little message. The deadliest happened in 1927 in Michigan....where a nut blew up a school killing 45 with another 58 wounded.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » December 17, 2012, 7:39 pm

Subversive agenda to BAN ALL GUNS. Fuckin Obama.

On the other hand when was the last school bombing? When people start blowing up schools again I'm sure they'll bring it up. I'm not sure how an incident 85 years ago is really relevant in a topic about shootings in todays world.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 17, 2012, 7:43 pm

Aslanna wrote:It's not a matter of access to them it's a matter of those who may benefit from them actually seeking them out.

Simplistic point.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » December 17, 2012, 7:45 pm

Spang wrote:
Aslanna wrote:
Spang wrote:It's not a matter of access to them it's a matter of those who may benefit from them actually seeking them out.
Simplistic point.

And you wonder why people don't bother "debating" you. Or maybe you don't wonder that. But you should.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 17, 2012, 7:47 pm

Aslanna wrote:And you wonder why people don't bother "debating" you. Or maybe you don't wonder that. But you should.

You criticize me for having a simplistic argument, then counter with a simplistic argument of your own. Brilliant.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » December 17, 2012, 8:24 pm

Quite simply, the Clackamas Town Center shooting could easily have been the worst mass-shooting in US history--considering how many holiday shoppers were present in the largest mall on the east side of town. A number of factors contributed to the shooter ultimately failing (not discounting the people who were killed or wounded, of course, just that it could have been much, much worse):

1. Shooter was a lousy shot. Emotional distress is often as bad or worse than physical duress. If shooter was using a handgun, my guess is the death count would be zero, discounting stray shots. Likely he would have put a bullet 20 feet in front of his potential victims by not knowing how to properly shoot.

Try it sometime: Go to a target range and do what you are not supposed to--"pull" the trigger.

2. Shooter was not familiar with his firearm. A simple jam due to improper handling and the inability to clear said jam.

3. Shooter did not account for potential CCP holder. I believe this kid with the CCP acted well-above most folks' situational awareness. If he was not a catalyst to the shooter taking his own life, he certainly didn't hurt anything by keeping cool and not doing something stupid.

4. Despite the panic, it seems several folks were doing their best to keep folks out of the firing lanes.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 17, 2012, 9:12 pm

You could tell quickly from his brief interview that he was a shooter and not some random slapnut who just went and got the CCW to have it. Indexing under a high stress situation and locking on the front sight told me right off that if he had a clean shot that he most likely was going to be able to land it. That is really the difference between someone who trains and your average person or average cop. Average cop would have been pulling the trigger and God knows where those rounds would have gone.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 18, 2012, 2:31 am

Personally I'm all for as many people wanting conceal permits getting them.. as long as they go through background checks and training. I'm not sure that's too much to ask. I'm kind of 'dont care' when it comes to an assault weapons ban, though outside of collecting I don't see any reason for owning one - but that's just my personal opinion. But again with proper licensing and specialized training, why not? I'm not under the illusion that guns can be banned in this country or made to go away and I think it does an extreme disservice to base decisions of fighting gun control on such a belief.

A concealed permit carrying citizen trained on how and when to draw on someone can indeed prevent or at least limit needless deaths. Imagine if someone in the front rows of the Colorado theater was carrying and knew what to do? Imagine if the Principal or someone else in the office where this began was carrying and could have taken him out there before he got to the kids?

PS: Aslanna, last school bombing - Columbine. Major ones didn't go off, but some did (granted they were amateur pipe bombs).

Edit.. you know as I reread my post here it dawned on me (again) how absolutely pathetic it is that we are forced to think this way. I still believe there's a root problem needing addressed (not mental health) and I still believe it never will. As was said above, things in this country (and likely around the world) are only going to get worse over time.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 18, 2012, 4:00 am

Siji wrote:As was said above, things in this country (and likely around the world) are only going to get worse over time.

Yeah, except realistically it's limited to the US.

I don't buy the deterrent or "what if hero" thing either, but regardless Americans are a breed apart when it comes to this shit. Everyone has the occasional nutter, some of them have just as many guns in the community, but y'all are the only place you can expect it to be as regular as crop rotations.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 18, 2012, 5:20 am

haha, "indexing under a high stress situation."

I fucking love internet tryhards.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 18, 2012, 10:18 am

Zaelath wrote:
Siji wrote:As was said above, things in this country (and likely around the world) are only going to get worse over time.
Yeah, except realistically it's limited to the US.

Except for the killing spree that ended 77 lives in Europe that includes car bombs, shootings where 1 in 4 Norwegians knew someone that was killed that day. If were going by body count, that has to add up to a few mass killings in the states.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » December 18, 2012, 10:21 am

Actually, he (Kilmoll) is correct there, terminology-wise.

To CCP programs...at least in Oregon, training is required prior to getting permit. A background check is, of course, taken as well.

As for firearm prohibition, it would certainly be a tall order in the states. I think we are still expecting another revolution or something--perhaps that is why we have our very own Tea Party now. It would be a hoot to go back to 50's-era switchblade-disco, however.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 18, 2012, 10:33 am

Zaelath wrote:
Siji wrote:As was said above, things in this country (and likely around the world) are only going to get worse over time.
Yeah, except realistically it's limited to the US.

I don't buy the deterrent or "what if hero" thing either, but regardless Americans are a breed apart when it comes to this shit. Everyone has the occasional nutter, some of them have just as many guns in the community, but y'all are the only place you can expect it to be as regular as crop rotations.

What are you smoking dude? Why don't you use the googlez to look up school attacks and check it out. The U.S. is not even CLOSE to the leader in this shit.

China is your 21st century leader in total school mass attacks with 21 of them since 2000. Those are almost all with knives or other cutting devices. Russia has them in body count because of the one single event. This is NOT just a US problem, it is a people problem that is being reported as a US/guns problem.

Again, according to actual DATA ( I know this is foreign to you libs when it comes to gun control), firearms are used to prevent a high probability of murder at a 15 to 1 ratio over actual murder being committed.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 18, 2012, 10:51 am

Canelek wrote:Actually, he (Kilmoll) is correct there, terminology-wise.

To CCP programs...at least in Oregon, training is required prior to getting permit. A background check is, of course, taken as well.

As for firearm prohibition, it would certainly be a tall order in the states. I think we are still expecting another revolution or something--perhaps that is why we have our very own Tea Party now. It would be a hoot to go back to 50's-era switchblade-disco, however.

Why feed that sad little fuck? She is in denial about what I know/do so fuck her.

To the point about the carry programs....

My biggest problem with the carry programs (and many of the NRA people who think we should all have the right to carry without any licensing) is that the lack of training by people and their general skill levels are just HORRENDOUS.

In days of old, people HAD to use firearms for food and defense from wild animals, so those skills were actually being used and improved. Today, most people only know about firearms from what they see on TV or in movies (most of which is so horrendously unrealistic that it is almost astounding). I would actually like to see a federal standard that people need to acquire and a realistic standard set of laws for concealed carry. I know that is way outside the NRA viewpoint, but frankly people need to have the brains and ability to not be a liability.

I can say all that honestly, having seen the high and low ends of shooters just in the local area. I have shot some of the IDPA matches down here and I have also had literally hundreds of people come through me for CCW classes. As far as the IDPA macthes went, I was pretty much middle of the pack in all of the ones I did. Granted I was using my standard carry gear as opposed to having the specialized competition type gear those guys were using, but it was still clear that with equal gear that it might have been a bit closer even though I would still not be beating them. Some of those guys were GOOD.

Now take that and compare it to the standard person coming through the classes....where i would say 1 or 2 of the hundreds that I have seen could even approach my level. That 9" plate is not moving at all and people struggle to hit it at a 70% clip. Ohio only puts you on the range for 2 hours and that is honestly not enough time....especially when you have to spend 8 hours teachign people who to clean their gun and other ridiculous shit like what the different parts of ammunition is.

Training and practice are the 2 most important things anyone who owns a gun needs to do and we make it tough for people to do that. We make it easy to own, but hard to train. Watch more TV and you will know how not to do it.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » December 18, 2012, 12:37 pm

Winnow wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Siji wrote:As was said above, things in this country (and likely around the world) are only going to get worse over time.
Yeah, except realistically it's limited to the US.
Except for the killing spree that ended 77 lives in Europe that includes car bombs, shootings where 1 in 4 Norwegians knew someone that was killed that day. If were going by body count, that has to add up to a few mass killings in the states.

The US is better at sensationalizing our tragedies and ignoring those of other countries. If the US had to deal with what happens in any number of other countries, 20 children in kindergarten would be considered a good day.