Question for the English Folk, "no guns?!?"

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 2:55 pm

I have a friend I work with who lived most of his life in England.

He mentioned that guns are illegal there.

My question is: How does a cop there handle an armed badguy?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I honestly don't understand how it works.

Ed-u-ma-cate me please!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 17, 2002, 2:57 pm

dont the cops have guns?

i know a lot of the patrol guys just carry clubs, but who are those dudes in Heathrow with the machine guns?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 2:59 pm

Heh, It kinda reminds me of the bike cops we have around here pulling over red-light runners.

"STOP or I'll peddle faster!"

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 17, 2002, 3:05 pm

It's my understanding that this is how things works in Hong Kong as well. No guns on the police, and very few on criminals.

It is odd, but it seems to work well. Then again, contrast this with China, where there is a soldier on every other corner with an assualt rifle and a justice system that is extremely hard on criminals. You tend have very little, to no crime at all. Of the crimes that are commited, they are non-violent in nature.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » July 17, 2002, 3:24 pm

Last time I was in London (2 years ago) some police did carry pistols. I was on a biz trip with my boss at the time, and when we asked the cop about it, he said that is was an optional practice that some of them adopted and some hadn't. The reasoning (according to some English friends/business contacts) was that while there wasn't a lot of "armed robberies" etc, the formation of the EU, an increase in the volume of drug smuggling (they liked to blame the Russian mafia) and the globalization of terrorist networks (such as some cells of the IRA training with middle eastern terrorists) had led to more firearms filtering into the country and to more cases of officers armed with a nightstick (and possibly pepperspray, etc) confronting felons with firearms. Thus they allow officers to carry them, at their discretion (not sure if there are jurisdictional issues involved or not).

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » July 17, 2002, 3:42 pm

I go to Hong Kong about 12 times per year and EVERY cop there has a gun.

In England the guys at the airport are special services branch of the Army or like their SWAT team. Every day Bobbies in England do not carry guns for the most part. The coppers and robbers have a mutual sort of deal I guess. You don't shoot me and I won't shoot you therefore no need for guns.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 17, 2002, 3:50 pm

Cops don't care firearms in Japan either. It's weird; their popular culture is very inundated with guns, but they have no desire to use them in real life. I think Tokyo had something like 3 major firearms crimes last year. It's amazing how safe a city can be when it's citizens don't feel they have some sort of right to pack around something capabable of killing a dozen people in under a minute.

Rikk Wolvenkin · Post by **Rikk Wolvenkin** » July 17, 2002, 3:53 pm

When you arm your police force you arm the criminals, OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of weapons on the blackmarket come from corrupt police, things finding their way out of the lockups. When you don't have an armed police force it becomes much harder for the criminals to get weapons.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 4:01 pm

Can Canadians pack heat?

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 17, 2002, 4:03 pm

I lived in Japan for 3 years and never saw any of the police with guns. You can't out run the radio seems to be the prevailing theme. O Mardi San will catch you.

The only time we locked our car doors while in Japan was when we were on base. My fellow Americans can really suck at times.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 17, 2002, 4:06 pm

In Northern Ireland Police carry guns, use them very very very rarely, and if they do decide to use it, they can go to jail.

It's fucking stupid.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 17, 2002, 4:49 pm

Canadians can own rifles for hunting and trap shooting and handguns very rarely for target shooting. Handguns must be transported in a locked strongbox with a locked trigger guard at all times when they are not being cleaned or used at the gun range.

There are a ton of illegal guns up here however. It's hard to keep them out of the country when you share such a massive border with Gunvania down there.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 17, 2002, 5:23 pm

Ya Kyou blame America for your gun control problems. Why do you constantly blame America for your countries problems?

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 17, 2002, 5:33 pm

Why should it matter in Canada? Pretty soon they will all be States and the problem of their gun control will be solved.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 5:51 pm

Kyo blames America because it gets people riled up and pissed off people are fun to argue with here.

Relax go clean your gun and smile. Its quite theroputic(sp?).

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » July 17, 2002, 5:56 pm

or maybe its cause kyo is right

Apollyon · Post by **Apollyon** » July 17, 2002, 6:03 pm

Cops have guns, its only the people that are helpless to defend themselves from thugs. Want to know the sure way to NOT lower the crime rate? Ban the weapons that people use to protect themselves when the cops aren't around.

Long live the NRA!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 6:06 pm

Please jump in Kyo if you feel I misrepresent you.

She feels that adults can not be responsible owners of weapons, thus they should be taken away.

I and others feel that we can be responsible owners of weapons.

Is Kyo right? It depends how you define right.

Is it right to force your fears on others and work to take away their freedom? Is it right to learn from history and recognize the stabilty of an armed populace in times of tyranny?

or..

Is it right to foolishly cling to an outdated freedom that has possibly enabled many people to get hurt or killed due to its existance as a freedom.

This is a verbal tennis match that has no ending.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 17, 2002, 6:11 pm

It's even easier than that.

As long as guns are manufactured, criminals will have guns. Period.

Taking that into account, I would much rather be an armed citizen than an unarmed one.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 6:16 pm

I tend to agree, the sound of me cocking a shotgun is much more scary to a burglar than me wildly waving my pocket knife.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 17, 2002, 6:16 pm

Honestly, the 2nd ammendment is by far the worst frecking thing in the entire constitution. I can understand why it was implemented in the bill of rights, b/c of all the turmoil and revolution going on at the time. But nowadays, there's people all over the united states stock piling huge amounts of firearms for the coming revolution or whatever their cause is. IMO, the people who actively seek out and purchase guns are precisely the people who should not have them.

The power to take a life should not be a right granted to every joe blow that enters this country.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 17, 2002, 6:22 pm

While I'll not deny the problems that come with an armed soceity, but I'll take them 10 times out of 10 over being at the whims of the aristocracy. The jack-booted thugs can have my .45 when they pry it from my lifeless grip.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 17, 2002, 6:22 pm

Xyun;

Why don't you go check on the states that have the lowest incidences of violent crime.

Then cross-check to see which states have open and concealed-carry laws for private citizens.

Then come back here and post your moronic, uninformed drivel.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 6:22 pm

Xyun you argue against guns because of a handful of extremests?

400 or so crazy men are enough to overlook 476 million responsible folk?

This is not a good argument.

Should we ban booze in the States because a minority of people drink and drive and kill innocents?

Should we ban muslims from immigrating to the States because a handful of extremists are doing bad things?

Hey, I recognize that there is nutcases all over the place. I disagree that the whole of us should be treated as children based on those few.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 17, 2002, 6:25 pm

my personal take on the situation is that in the US the current permissions that gun hobbyists have do exceed what is in the best interest of society.

There may not be anything wrong with having hunting rifles or handguns for self-defense/sport-shooting, but quite a bit of the weapons that are freely circulated out there right now are specifically designed to kill humans in a short period of time.

And gun owners should be licensed. To act like this is some kind of big brother infringement on your rights is a bit paranoid. It is no different than what the government requires of people with automobiles.

So the government has a 'database' on who they need to 'take out' when they decide to invoke martial law?

well, for one minute let's deal with the universe i like to call reality.

do you really think that US soldiers are such mindless robots that they are going to just march in and take over towns and kill gun owners because the Pentagon-types have secretly taken over the government?

OK even if they did, what the fuck is the rifle you got at walmart gonna do against an A-10 warthog?

i think a more realistic application of weapons databases is aiding in law enforcement.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 17, 2002, 6:26 pm

Well my stance in the matter is that guns are a shitty invention in every sense of the word.

However, so are human beings.

Bit of a no win situation really isn't it.

Peace not war?

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 17, 2002, 6:33 pm

I would be the first to support a "gun license" similar to a driver's license. Hell, I'd even support one that required MORE skill in proper safety and handling than the driver's exams use.

What I and most of the gun lobbyists are opposed to is having the government control background checks. The potential for abuse by the state determining who can and can't have guns is EXACTLY what the second amendment was written for.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 17, 2002, 6:35 pm

i dont have any problems with a person losing their right to "bear arms" if they have committed a felony. so i am all for properly executed background checks.

yes states will fuck up the enforcement. fucking up is what state governments exist for.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 6:35 pm

TEENY!

Tell us about guns in England.

Apollyon · Post by **Apollyon** » July 17, 2002, 6:41 pm

I predict that someday my guns and the guns of my fellow armed citizens will be the only thing that protects us from a tyrannical form of government in the US, whether it be from outside or within.

The country of the United States was not born because of sheep who laid down their weapons in the name of public safety. It was formed because people stood up and said "live free or die" and "don't tread on me", then did something about it.

Don't be a sheep, don't let the blood they spilled to gain and protect your freedom be for nought. Better yet, rather than try to ban the weapons of those who responsibly own them, go out and buy a few yourself to demonstrate your willingness to defend our freedom. Bonus points awarded if you learn how to make explosives, or maybe some first aid skills so you can tend to your fellow patriot's wounds if we ever do get to that point.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 6:41 pm

I think its perfectly rational to have firearms regestered and treated just the same as you would a car.

I will NOT agree to this legislation however. Why?

I know that its eventually guns will be banned in the US. The same bunch (read liberals) that just about banned smoking are doing that incrementalism stuff on weapons nowadays.

The way I figured it, the libocrats will have have to fight for another 10 years to get guns regestered, and THEN move on to incrementally banning them.

Why give an inch when you know your enemy wants to take it all?

I say fight them for every inch, even when the halfway point is a logical concession.

As a conservative type I have to fight like this or the USA will be "incremented" into Norway socialism.

70% taxes *shiver*

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 17, 2002, 6:48 pm

smoking is "about banned"?

come on, that is a total exageration.

go out to a bar sometime, and you have to wash your pillowcase the next day cause your hair stinks so bad of cigarette smoke.

yes a guy can't sit in his cube at work and smoke. big deal.

i've smoked pot in bars for christ's sake, much less cigarettes.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 17, 2002, 6:50 pm

Fallanthas,

You don't deserve a reply b/c of your complete ignorance as to what I was trying to say. When I mentioned the bill of rights i was referring to the entire United States, I was not comparing one state's crime rate vs. another. I don't need fucking statistics to make me realize that a gun is used for one reason and one reason only: killing. You challenge me to look up statistics?

http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v286n21 ... 11149.html

http://i2i.org/SuptDocs/Crime/Japanese_Gun_Control.htm

Mind you the statistics from the first link are only for violent crimes committed by fucking HIGH SCHOOL KIDS in the U.S.

Anyone can come up with statistics to support their point of view, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, guns are used to kill people. It's not hard to realize that in a society where guns are legal there will be more murders then in a society where guns are not legal.

If you want to prove something to me using statistics look it up yourself and present it to me. Don't fucking ask me to look up useless fucking information that you feel somehow supports your point of view. If you think it matters, YOU fucking look it up.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 6:58 pm

Sad thing about political statistics,

You can take the same data set and make it argue both sides.

Political statistics aren't solid material for an argument.

There's too much of that "glass is half empty vs. glass is half full" interpretation in them.

Oh yea Voronwe: They'll never totally ban smoking. Too much tax revenue depends on addicted folk paying up.

TEENYBLOKE! Tell us about England and guns man.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 17, 2002, 7:13 pm

I completely agree with what you say about statistics Adex. In a real debate, all a person has to do is use their common sense. There seems to be some sort of stigma in this country about using common sense, however. Seems that going against tradition or the majority or anything percieved in the past as wrong, no matter how right or logical or good it may be today, will get one ostracized.

For example take this case here.

1) Killing people is wrong
2) Guns are used primarily to kill people

c: Guns are wrong.

Therefore, guns should be illegal.

Apollyon · Post by **Apollyon** » July 17, 2002, 7:47 pm

The place where this argument of "guns being used to kill people = guns should be made illegal" falls short is that law abiding citizens are not the ones using guns to kill people, criminals are. Criminals do not get their guns over the counter, so registration isn't going to solve that problem. Criminals typically obtain their guns illegally.

Now what happens if you take guns away from law abiding citizens is that the criminals will still have the guns, and when they hold you up or invade your house, your only recourse is what? That's right. If you survive the attack/invasion, you can call the cops while your wife lays there recovering from the rape you were forced to watch or your kids are cowering in the corner, if they're all still alive!

I would really like to hear from some peeps in England or Australia, where home invasion has risen 40% since firearms were banned. Do the cameras on the lamp posts in London really make you feel that much safer at night? Will they save you when you're mugged? I know my .45 will!

Want something to read? Check this out:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/ ... ory=314832

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 7:59 pm

hmm, interesting

Xyun do you belive that killing another human is never justified?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 17, 2002, 8:09 pm

I'm not anti-gun, I'm pro gun education. I even have a permit to transport a firearm and used to own a handgun when I lived by myself.

But the 2nd amendment was drawn up after almsot 200 years of the most advanced firearm being a matchlock device capable of firing about twice a minute.

Your 2nd amendment rights are paid for yearly with the blood of thousands and thousands of accidental and purposeful firearms homicides. More crimes of passion are commited with firearms than all others combined. It's pathetic.

And don't give me this benefits of an armed society bullshit. You spend so fucking much on defense and have such a massive standing military that you have no reason to arm civilians. Countries like Switzerland have this because they spend very little on defense, but can mobilize their civilians in a matter of hours. Also, swiss civilians are trained in the proper procedures, and more importantly, to respect their firearm, not treat it like a toy and leave it on the kitchen counter around their kids. All it takes is one time for Chuck McRedneck's inbred kids to get a hold of daddy's fully automatic penis supplement one time for a death to occur. And although the darwinistic side of me applauds this behaviour in your country, the rest of me think you are generally a bunch of idiots for having such stupidly lax gun laws.

Any psychopathic reject can mosey on down to the local shop and pick themselves up a weapon capable of massacring dozens of people in a matter of minutes. That is just so wrong on so many levels in a developed nation that it scares me.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 8:13 pm

Damn this thread is a bit too friendly,

Allow me to speak defacto flamevault words to keep us legit.

***********
You cock sucking euro-trash bastards! My grandpappy went over to europe to save your aristocratic asses from da Nazis!

how do you think my grandpappy learned to shoot so well?

You BETTER STAY OVER THERE IN THEM EUROPE COUNTRIES AND STAY OUT OF THE GOOD oLD usa CUZ WE BLEED MAROON HERE AND WE'LL KICK YOUR ASS IF YOU TOUCH OUR GUNS !

.... Oh yea YOU HAVE TO PRY MY PATRIOT MISSILE LAUNCHER OFF MY AMERICAN MADE PICKUP TRUCK .... blah blah blah .... MY DEAD HANDS

i DUN TOAD MY COUSIN MARY JANE RIGHT FOR i MARRIED HER THAT YOU COMMIE PICKO LIBERAL BASTARDS WERE GONNA TRY AND TAKE MY RATS AWAY.

...IF YOU DAMN FOREIGNERS DON'T LIKE THE THE GOOD ole usa YOU CAN HIT THE ROAD AND GET OUT

al gore DUN AND INVENTED THE GOOD AMERICAN INTRANET IF YOU KEEP MOUTHING US WE'LL JUST TURN THE DAMN THING OFF!

*********

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 17, 2002, 8:22 pm

I agree,

I think it would do kids well to shoot weapons (under supervision) at a very early age.

All your average 9 year sees is TV and Video games. There the finality of a gun shot are trivialized.

Take a kid, and let them shoot a watermelon. That will knock them into reality.

Yes I agree Kyo, responsible gun ownership includes education and training.

But keep in mind my post a few hops above. I'll not support gun training being legislated. That would be an incremental concession to those who want to take it all away.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 17, 2002, 8:50 pm

I don't believe killing another human being is never justified. I just don't think that every single citizen in this country should be grated the power to kill. Too many will abuse this power.

The issue is numbers in gun ownership is directly related to gun violence. To think otherwise is ignorant. The article that speaks of increased crime in England says absolutely nothing about homicide with deadly weapons.

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada, 211 in Germany, and 9,390 in the United States.

A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member or a friend than it is to be used against an intruder

If you wanna have a gun around you, that is your priveledge atm, just make fucking sure that your fucked up kid doesn't take it and shoot up the neighborhood/school.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 17, 2002, 9:37 pm

Well, living in Northern Ireland......

Plenty of people have guns here, they don't need a license becauuse they basically don't give a fuck about that.

It's not for game, it's for killing people of the other religion.

FUCK THAT

I wouldn't see killing certain people is wrong. Someone attacks, say for example, my little sister. If he injures her or causes her harm, I WILL kill him.

I dont need a gun for that.

If decent non morons want a gun to play with, thats fine by me.

However, considering that 99% of the population of the world are retarded it doesn't appeal to me to give them all a gun.

If you aren't a moron, you don't need a license for a gun.

If you are a moron, then you need to live in a truly fucked up world where it is still easy to own a gun, like, taadaa, this one.

The world in general would be better in every way without humans, with their filth and hatred.

Fuck, grr, rawr

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » July 17, 2002, 10:02 pm

Trek- because while we have gun control laws, with a large open border with gunville down south its easy to just wander across the border, buy one illegally and just walk back home with it. Thats why Kyou is poking the US with a stick. The open friendly border has many advantages (and overall I'm quite happy with it) but thats not one of them.

*Hugs*
Varia

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 17, 2002, 10:34 pm

The main problems with guns are not due to guns themselves. They come from the complete trash that is allowed to fester on our streets. If people would take resposnibility (or were forced to) for their own actions it would change many things in the US. It is not guns that cause problems...it is people.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » July 18, 2002, 12:47 am

lets face is americans are stupid when it comes to guns ..... everyone is always gun ho. i grew up in a hunting family (wee gettting up at 3 am in the moring to go out deer hunting at 7 years old) so i know how guys work ..... but i hate them i think they are the most stupid thing ever created. its just like the cell phone thing ..about how people shouldn't be able to talk on them and drive at the same time i've almost been hit by a lovely suv once because someone was talkin on their cell phone but ... they will never ban it because they wouldn't be able to stop everyone. same way with guns in the usa everyone is all "get outta my grill" when it comes to that.

if you do have your guns locked up and there is a burgler in the house what are you gonna do? get up quietly find your keys to your gun case (in the dark prolly trip over a few things make some noise and let him know u know he's there) then he comes in while ur loading your gun (your not supposed to keep guns loaded duh) and he puts a bullet in ur face. a lot of good that gun did. Also when the "right to bare arms' crap was made guys couldn't pump out like 100+ rounds a min and all kindas other lovely stuff and people would use them responseably because lets face is people have gone to hell in responseabilty and they couldn't run down to Mc Donalds and get a cheese burger they hunted.

With state being able to decide who got guns and who didn't. Would you like to be living next to a convicted murderer that has been "reabilitated" after he put some lead into people, and him having a nice lovely gun collection and you just so happen not to be his best friend? i think not you would be paranoid because you know he might come over and blow your ass away. sure yes there will always be guns around here even if they were illegal but i bet you would hear " there was a shooting today in >> incert large city name here << and a mother and her 5th month old baby were gunned down as a man was fleeing from the police.

well thats just my 50 cents =-p

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 18, 2002, 9:54 am

Heh I'd have no problem with the bad guy next door packing heat if I was similarly armed as well.

My shotgun gives me instant negotiation power while I wait for the cops to respond to a breakin.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 18, 2002, 10:03 am

I don't believe that the only use for guns is killing. The can also be used as deterrent. If you know someone has a gun you tend to be more wary of that person. Our country hasn't been invaded because our bill of rights lets us own guns. Not many other countries allow this.

Besides...*prepare for the cliche* Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

or if you rather, Guns don't kill people, Bullets kill people.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 18, 2002, 10:21 am

Xyun---

Your stats look good on paper, like all stats, but remeber that violent crime in America is higher than anywhere else in the world. It is a social issue, not a gun issue. A violent culture will still be violent without guns. Instead of being shot, beople would be stabbed or beaten to death. Those countries that we are compared with have a smaller population, are smaller countries, and are different cultures. You are comparing apples and oranges. But like I said, it looks like you proved your point on paper. The reality is quite different.

I endorse a citizen's right to bear arms in the USA.

Education versus restriction.

People fear what they do not understand.

I pity any foreign army that may ever tread on American soil.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 18, 2002, 10:27 am

Xyun,

Hrmm, guess I didn't do too good a job of making my point. Let me shorten the logic step a bit.

The reason I referred to statistics on violent crime and the right to carry a gun concelaed is that those states who have concealed weapon laws ALSO have lower than national average violent crime stats.

Now, if your assertion that the only purpose for carrying a gun was to kill someone is true, would not those stats be reversed?

A gun is a tool. A dangerous one to be sure, but the tool does not choose how it is used. During the hubub of the states suing gun manufacturers recently, one of the lawyers brought a loaded Beretta into the court room. He unsafed the weapon and laid it on the evidence table. "Judge, I ask that we sit here and observe this weapon until it goes off and kills someone."

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. I see reports every week of someone being worked over with a bat or a hammer. maybe we should villify Stanley for their product, eh?

FYI, I have no problem with being a registered gun owner either, except for the scenario Adex outlined above. Same reason none of my horses are registered. I don't need PETA beating on my door in the middle of the night.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » July 18, 2002, 10:31 am

Speaking of guns.

Anyone know of a manufacturer that still makes a clip-fed pump shotgun?

The clip makes it easy to secure and load, the pump is a MAJOR deterrent.