Israel boards ships in international waters

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 1, 2010, 3:48 pm

Kills 10, detains hundreds more, for bringing dangerous items like cement and kitchen knives to the Palestinians in Gaza.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle ... 195838.stm

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » June 1, 2010, 4:44 pm

Boy, that will make other blockade runners think twice!

miir · Post by **miir** » June 1, 2010, 5:17 pm

It's clearly in retaliation for all those Palestinian rockets that never seem to hit anyone or anything.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » June 1, 2010, 5:30 pm

I've been following the news as much as anyone.

"Look, we're getting a bunch of ships and we're going to go run your blockade."

"Don't do it."

"We have to take these supplies to Gaza"

"We'll do it for you."

"Nope, we need a confrontation. I'm going to flail my arms and walk towards the Gaza, if I hit anything it's your fault for being in my way!"

The activists got what they wanted, now everyone's satisfied.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 1, 2010, 6:17 pm

They were pretty fucking dumb to try to bust the blockade. Not saying that I am fine with what the end result was though. Was anyone actually thinking that it would turn out any other way when they first announced that they were going through even after the warnings?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 1, 2010, 7:16 pm

Terrorism: The calculated use of violence against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious.

This was a terrorist attack by the Israeli government.

According to the UN, Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal.
The world needs to wake the fuck up and realise that NOT supporting the Israeli government and it's heavy handed and illegal actions against Palestine is not anti semitic.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 1, 2010, 9:20 pm

On the same token, the Palestinians need to stop poking the big dog that they know is going to bite them. How many times do they need to hit themselves in the nuts with the same hammer? They aren't stupid so...

I feel for the Palestinian people, the "government" they've elected are a bunch of terrorists whose power and status are based on keeping the conflict going while playing the whining martyr.

The people funneling weapons to them are doing it largely because it distracts their own people from the injustices that are being done to them.

The Israelis are by no means lily white in all this, but I can understand their reactions. Allowing a whole ship full of they don't know what from a nation that's not friendly to them wouldn't seem all that bright to me.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 1, 2010, 11:52 pm

I agree with Ashur and Aabidano.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 2, 2010, 7:59 am

Which shows you have literally no idea what you're talking about. This convoy has been globally publicised and its contents, as well as people on board, are clearly reasonable, non violent activists.

The notion that Israel thought there was a threat against it, except insofar as its illegal occupation was being directly challenged, is an utters nonsense. Evidence that the Israel propoganda machine is working fine and dandy in the US>

In other equally unsurprising news, the US blocks independant review by the UN. Disgraceful.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... lotilla-us?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 2, 2010, 8:58 am

They certainly demonstrated their non-violence when boarded. Had they cooperated my guess is the contents would have been transferred to the Palestinians as advertised.

Aiding the Palestinian people wasn't the aim of this mission, stirring up the region\world further was. Much more money pours in due to strife than does for something peaceful.

I don't agree with either sides actions historically, in this particular instance I can't blame Israel at all. Doing anything else would have been foolish given the circumstances they're in.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 2, 2010, 2:28 pm

The contents absolutely WOULD NOT have made it, as a good part of it was building supplies like concrete, which Israel will not allow into Gaza under any circumstances.

Can't let those pesky Arabs build something that looks like civilization lest the outside world start seeing them as something other than the barbarians the Zionists wish us to see.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 2, 2010, 5:59 pm

Aabidano wrote:They certainly demonstrated their non-violence when boarded. Had they cooperated my guess is the contents would have been transferred to the Palestinians as advertised.

So when Palestine targets military checkpoints and kills/captures Israeli soldiers, it's terrorism... but when Israel intentionally targets a civilian flotilla in international waters and kills and detains these civilians, it's their own fault for provoking Israel and not being cooperatine?

That's some pretty fucking bizarre logic.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 2, 2010, 6:58 pm

miir wrote:
Aabidano wrote:They certainly demonstrated their non-violence when boarded. Had they cooperated my guess is the contents would have been transferred to the Palestinians as advertised.
So when Palestine targets military checkpoints and kills/captures Israeli soldiers, it's terrorism... but when Israel intentionally targets a civilian flotilla in international waters and kills and detains these civilians, it's their own fault for provoking Israel and not being cooperatine?

That's some pretty fucking bizarre logic.

eh? You reading the same post that you quoted?

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 3, 2010, 1:14 pm

Yeah fuck Israel. Nearly half of our foreign policy issues of the last half century can be tied to our relationship with them. Too bad they have so much lobbying power over here that we won't dump them, though. They won't be happy until that whole region gets turned to glass. I just hope that they don't take us with them in the process of their self destructive behavior.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 3:26 am

Has anyone seen the supposed video of the "defenseless victims"? Is the video real? faked? a previous incident? I was just curious. I saw guys hitting the soldiers with what looked like pretty decent sized pipes, I saw them dropping stun grenades into the boarding ships.

I am not saying they deserve to die, but a pipe can absolutely be a deadly weapon, stun grenades can hurt people badly. Soldiers are trained to protect themselves. I know they are taught to decide need of force based on the situation, but if those videos are real then the activists did not help their cause.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 8:57 am

Tyek wrote:Has anyone seen the supposed video of the "defenseless victims"? Is the video real? faked? a previous incident? I was just curious. I saw guys hitting the soldiers with what looked like pretty decent sized pipes, I saw them dropping stun grenades into the boarding ships.

I am not saying they deserve to die, but a pipe can absolutely be a deadly weapon, stun grenades can hurt people badly. Soldiers are trained to protect themselves. I know they are taught to decide need of force based on the situation, but if those videos are real then the activists did not help their cause.

Hey, well what the fuck were soldiers doing on a civilian ship in international waters?
If armed, hostile foreign soldiers boarded an American vessel in international waters would they be at fault for trying to defend themselves?

Why the fuck do you people keep trying to make excuses for the Israelis?
This was terrorism.
There is no fucking excuse for terrorism.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 4, 2010, 9:28 am

Jice Virago wrote:They won't be happy until that whole region gets turned to glass. I just hope that they don't take us with them in the process of their self destructive behavior.

The Israelis won't back down because the neighbors will kill them and where else are they going to go? Trying to make peace with someone who shoots rockets at you every "truce" is a little pointless.

The Palestinians won't back down because none of the countries that are perfectly willing to funnel them weapons have ever been willing to take them in. Their land was taken from them, which was taken from someone else, ad nauseaum.

At one point I thought things would get better once the current generation died off, doesn't look like it.

I don't think it matters what the resolution is between the Israelis and Palestinians. Addressing the poverty and injustices to the Palestinians isn't really a solution unless you fix the human rights situation in the neighboring countries who support them as well. The Palestinians are just being used as a patsy\proxy\distraction.

The neighboring countries who are also financed by the US and that have the US by the nuts due to our dependence on their product I might add.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 4, 2010, 10:17 am

Hawks vs Doves and the Hawks are winning.

Zver · Post by **Zver** » June 4, 2010, 11:02 am

For those of you who think that these were some innocent protestants on the boat who were trying to bring food into Gaza here is a nice article which pretty much sums up the whole deal:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04287.html

There will never be a peace because Palestinians do not want peace - all they want is to destroy Israel and they are pretty open about their intentions.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » June 4, 2010, 11:24 am

That's an OP-ED article. Much different than a reporting/journalistic article. Its the same as the opinions above, just opinions.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 11:35 am

Zver wrote:For those of you who think that these were some innocent protestants on the boat who were trying to bring food into Gaza here is a nice article which pretty much sums up the whole deal:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04287.html

There will never be a peace because Palestinians do not want peace - all they want is to destroy Israel and they are pretty open about their intentions.

Yea, there's no bias in that op-ed whatsoever.

Zver · Post by **Zver** » June 4, 2010, 11:38 am

There 7 million Jews surrounded by a billion Arabs who are openly say that we will wipe you off the face of the earth by any means necessary. My numbers could be off a bit but those are the facts, not opinions.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 11:48 am

Zver wrote:There 7 million Jews surrounded by a billion Arabs who are openly say that we will wipe you off the face of the earth by any means necessary. My numbers could be off a bit but those are the facts, not opinions.

Nobody is saying that Palestine is free from blame in the overall situation...

The point is that how the fuck can you make excuses for Israel when they launch terrorist attacks against civilian vessels in international waters?

"Some nutcase in Iran said they want to wipe Israel off the map" is not an excuse to target and kill civilians in international waters.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 11:53 am

Zver wrote:There 7 million Jews surrounded by a billion Arabs who are openly say that we will wipe you off the face of the earth by any means necessary. My numbers could be off a bit but those are the facts, not opinions.

They have been saying that for 62 years.

I'm pretty sure if they intended to act on those threats, they would have done so by now.

Hey, don't get me wrong... If Palestine had targeted and killed civilians in neutral territory I would be just as pissed off.

Zver · Post by **Zver** » June 4, 2010, 11:58 am

If these were "civilians" they would have allowed to inspect the cargo for weapons and be on their marry way. They were looking for a confrontation and deserve what they got.

Zver · Post by **Zver** » June 4, 2010, 12:02 pm

miir wrote:I'm pretty sure if they intended to act on those threats, they would have done so by now.

They have tried on more than one occasion in the past 62 years - they just got their asses kicked every time

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 12:12 pm

Zver wrote:If these were "civilians" they would have allowed to inspect the cargo for weapons and be on their marry way. They were looking for a confrontation and deserve what they got.

Please provide any information or proof that they were not civilians.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 12:13 pm

Zver wrote:
miir wrote:I'm pretty sure if they intended to act on those threats, they would have done so by now.
They have tried on more than one occasion in the past 62 years - they just got their asses kicked every time

And that justifies terrorist actions against civilian vessels in international waters?

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 12:32 pm

miir wrote:
Tyek wrote:Has anyone seen the supposed video of the "defenseless victims"? Is the video real? faked? a previous incident? I was just curious. I saw guys hitting the soldiers with what looked like pretty decent sized pipes, I saw them dropping stun grenades into the boarding ships.

I am not saying they deserve to die, but a pipe can absolutely be a deadly weapon, stun grenades can hurt people badly. Soldiers are trained to protect themselves. I know they are taught to decide need of force based on the situation, but if those videos are real then the activists did not help their cause.
Hey, well what the fuck were soldiers doing on a civilian ship in international waters?
If armed, hostile foreign soldiers boarded an American vessel in international waters would they be at fault for trying to defend themselves?

Why the fuck do you people keep trying to make excuses for the Israelis?
This was terrorism.
There is no fucking excuse for terrorism.

First off, I did not justify it. The first paragraph I asked if anyone knew if the evidence was real, or was Israel releasing fake or old footage to justify the action. The second paragraph I said that while they did not deserve to die, they did themselves no favors by their actions.

Zver · Post by **Zver** » June 4, 2010, 12:39 pm

miir wrote:
Zver wrote:If these were "civilians" they would have allowed to inspect the cargo for weapons and be on their marry way. They were looking for a confrontation and deserve what they got.
Please provide any information or proof that they were not civilians.

I can post 100 different links but you will just dismiss them all as OP-ED article. No point in wasting time. I know this exercise of going back and forth won’t change your or anyone else mind. The only thing I can suggest is going to Israel and experience this first hand. I bet you when you come back after a week there you will have a totally different perspective on this issue and among few other issues as well.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 12:41 pm

The only thing I can suggest is going to Israel and experience this first hand.

Why don't you go to Palestine for a week (as an Arab, not as an Israeli) and experience it first hand?

I don't really wish to get into an argument with you on this issue.
I totally understand and accept your bias on this issue (you are jewish, right?).

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 12:42 pm

Also if some group of US "innocent civilians", tried to jam themselves through a blockade of another country, despite the fact they were repeatedly warned not to, you and Nick would be the first ones on here claiming that once again US forces and their citizens were trying to police the world, blah blah blah and they got what they deserved.

You have yet to show they were innocent civilians, you just are taking their word for it. Video shows that even if they were just civilians, they were looking for a possible fight. (if I believe the video is real, which was my question in the first place and which I am not sure the Israeli Army did not pull out from some other raid long ago and pretend to justify these actions) And yes I would be unhappy if US citizens were attacked, but if they decided to ignore a long standing blockade order, try to impose themselves in troubled waters, carry weapons and use them on the soldiers who were trying to board them, I would question if they themselves were not at least partially at fault for the tragedy that follows.

Zver · Post by **Zver** » June 4, 2010, 12:50 pm

miir wrote:
The only thing I can suggest is going to Israel and experience this first hand.
Why don't you go to Palestine for a week (as an Arab, not as an Israeli) and experience it first hand?

I don't really wish to get into an argument with you on this issue.
I totally understand and accept your bias on this issue (you are jewish, right?).

See the problem with me going to Palestine is that i would be dead in less than an hour (if I’m lucky) - and yes I am Jewish.

Where in Israel, there are over 1 million Arabs who live side by side with Jews as full Citizens of Israel and enjoy all the benefits and more...

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 12:57 pm

Tyek wrote:You have yet to show they were innocent civilians, you just are taking their word for it. Video shows that even if they were just civilians, they were looking for a possible fight. (if I believe the video is real, which was my question in the first place and which I am not sure the Israeli Army did not pull out from some other raid long ago and pretend to justify these actions) And yes I would be unhappy if US citizens were attacked, but if they decided to ignore a long standing blockade order, try to impose themselves in troubled waters, carry weapons and use them on the soldiers who were trying to board them, I would question if they themselves were not at least partially at fault for the tragedy that follows.

It's irrelevant if the video is real or not.
Those individuals had legal right to defend their vessel from being boarded by hostile forces.

There were no military personel on those boats.
There were no firearms on those boats (except for flare guns).
They were in international waters.
The Israeli soldiers illegally boarded a civilian vessel.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 1:08 pm

They were absolutely carrying weapons, there are other weapons besides firearms. They attacked the soldiers before they boarded, and they knew they were walking, or floating, into a charge atmosphere. You are acting like they jumped in a boat to get some sun and wound up dead. Even with all, that I still said they did not deserve to die, but you only read about half of a persons post before you scramble for the reply button and act with indignant fury.

A fake video would ABSOLUTELY change things. It would show that not only did Israel attack an aid ship, but they covered it up with a fake video. They would have no standing in the international community.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 1:09 pm

miir wrote:
Tyek wrote:You have yet to show they were innocent civilians, you just are taking their word for it. Video shows that even if they were just civilians, they were looking for a possible fight. (if I believe the video is real, which was my question in the first place and which I am not sure the Israeli Army did not pull out from some other raid long ago and pretend to justify these actions) And yes I would be unhappy if US citizens were attacked, but if they decided to ignore a long standing blockade order, try to impose themselves in troubled waters, carry weapons and use them on the soldiers who were trying to board them, I would question if they themselves were not at least partially at fault for the tragedy that follows.
It's irrelevant if the video is real or not.
Those individuals had legal right to defend their vessel from being boarded by hostile forces.

There were no military personel on those boats.
There were no firearms on those boats (except for flare guns).
They were in international waters.
The Israeli soldiers illegally boarded a civilian vessel.

Just a question. Are you actually saying those people have no fault in the incident then?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 1:52 pm

Tyek wrote:Just a question. Are you actually saying those people have no fault in the incident then?

If the Israeli soldiers had not illegally boarded the vessel, there would have been no incident.

They were absolutely carrying weapons, there are other weapons besides firearms.

Pipes, boards and knives are inconsequential when faced with multi-million dollar assault helicopters and warships.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 2:14 pm

miir wrote:
Tyek wrote:Just a question. Are you actually saying those people have no fault in the incident then?
If the Israeli soldiers had not illegally boarded the vessel, there would have been no incident.

They were absolutely carrying weapons, there are other weapons besides firearms.
Pipes, boards and knives are inconsequential when faced with multi-million dollar assault helicopters and warships.

At close range those things are absolutely deadly weapons, and you did not answer the question. Were the people on the boat at least partially responsible?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 4, 2010, 2:17 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37504817/ns ... tn_africa/

so, Round 2 soon

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 4, 2010, 2:23 pm

If this was a violation of law, shouldn't the UN be the ones that get involved? Maybe a country like Canada can grow the balls to step in on their own accord when the UN won't.....or are you insinuating that the US should do it after the 8 years of bitching about us doing that in Iraq after the UN's worthless ass got dictated to by Saddam?

We are not the ones protecting Israel from the Muslims. We are protecting the Muslims from Israel. If there is a conflict, there is going to be one hell of a towel surplus in the manufacturing areas in China and the US.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 2:28 pm

Tyek wrote:At close range those things are absolutely deadly weapons, and you did not answer the question. Were the people on the boat at least partially responsible?

Pipes, boards and knives in the hands of civilians are deadly weapons against trained soldiers equipped with automatic weapons, body armor with years of combat training?
Are you fucking loony?

There's no way the people on the boat were responsbile.
They were illegally boarded in international waters by hostile forces.
They had every right to defend themselves.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 4, 2010, 2:43 pm

Actually, body armor does not offer much protection against edged weapons and much more limited protection against blunt force trauma. It is made to absorb the kinetic energy of fairly lightweight projectiles at high velocity. A knife will go through Kevlar as easily as it will a denim jacket. Those trained soldiers I am certain are aware of that. For that matter, if I am a soldier sent to do any job whatsoever, and I am threatened with ANY weapon that will do me great bodily harm, that threat is being neutralized because I want to go home at the end of the day. Soldiers do not get to pick their missions.

Earlier this week Fox News reported that the IHH has links to terrorist groups including Hamas and Al Qaeda. Indeed, the IHH was described in federal court documents as playing a role in the Millennium terrorist plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport.

The Turkish charity was described in a recent report as being a "radical Islamic organization with an anti-Western orientation," and that "besides its legitimate philanthropic activities, it supports radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and that at least in the past, even global jihad networks."

Now you have called this an illegal act on more than one occasion. I would like for this to be cited from whatever text of law you are getting it from, as I still have yet to see any international group charge Israel with it. As to the people on the boat not being responsible....who exactly IS responsible then? Did the BearJew Fairy miracle them there? They are described as an activist group with ties to Hamas and Al Queida.....known terrorist organizations. I don't think they were carrying rainbows and chocolate bunnies sprinkled with peace. The blockade has been there for 3 years and they made a conscious effort to run through it, full well knowing what was going to happen.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » June 4, 2010, 2:59 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:If this was a violation of law, shouldn't the UN be the ones that get involved? Maybe a country like Canada can grow the balls to step in on their own accord when the UN won't.....or are you insinuating that the US should do it after the 8 years of bitching about us doing that in Iraq after the UN's worthless ass got dictated to by Saddam?

We are not the ones protecting Israel from the Muslims. We are protecting the Muslims from Israel. If there is a conflict, there is going to be one hell of a towel surplus in the manufacturing areas in China and the US.

Well Kilmoll, the UN ARE trying to do so, which the US prefer to try hard to block, and instead get the Israelis to investigate the incident. I quote here from US representatives speech in the UN:

"We expect a credible and transparent investigation and strongly urge the Israeli government to investigate the incident fully."

If you just google that line, you can find the full text, and a load of different articles about it, since im sure that anyone i would choose to pick for it would be "liberal lies", i just ask you to find whichever article you prefer in the mix

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 3:00 pm

It was illegal because:

It happened in international waters.
The blockade has been called illegal by the UN on multiple occasions.
Israeli commandos forcibly boarded the vessel.

I think it's fucking hillarious that you cite FOX NEWS for information about alleged terrorist links to IHH...
I bet FOX NEWS could tie Al-Qaeda to every fucking muslim on the face of the planet

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 3:01 pm

On a ship with that many people on it, a pipe or knife is definitely a deadly weapon. A 200 pound man with a thick pipe does not need any training to be deadly with a weapon, so I am not sure why you think that is looney.

So lets go with your "we are just a bunch of civilians on a boat ride through this blockade theory. If this is an altruistic group whose only goal is to help the poor citizens, then

1. Why bring weapons on board in the first place unless you were expecting trouble.
2. Why use the weapons when you could video the Israeli soldiers taking the goods and show it to the world. You could still gain the attention to your cause and lose no lives.

Again, I don't think they should have died, but you are naive if you think they were innocent civilians and had no responsibilty on this tragic result.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 4, 2010, 3:10 pm

Zver wrote:
miir wrote:I'm pretty sure if they intended to act on those threats, they would have done so by now.
They have tried on more than one occasion in the past 62 years - they just got their asses kicked every time

+1

Israel has been under attack several times by its neighbors. The reason Israel is still around is that they are bad-ass fighters. They take no shit and are dead serious about the defense of their country.

This is how you live in Israel

[Show]

I have no special attachment to Israel but I do respect their badassness. Worthy of protection from the World Police!

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 4, 2010, 3:15 pm

1. Why bring weapons on board in the first place unless you were expecting trouble.
2. Why use the weapons when you could video the Israeli soldiers taking the goods and show it to the world. You could still gain the attention to your cause and lose no lives.

Again, I don't think they should have died, but you are naive if you think they were innocent civilians and had no responsibilty on this tragic result.

Gandhi was non-violent, you'll note he didn't have a club, flash bang grenades or a knife stashed in his loincloth.

These were activists intending to create a violent situation, you're very naive if you think any different.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 3:15 pm

The history between Israel and Plaestine is a whole other discussion and I was hoping this thread wouldn't fall into that bottomless pit.

-----------

Anyway, I just dont understand how people can make up excuses for Israel in this instance.
They were the aggressors.
If they had just stayed the fuck off that boat (that they had no right boarding), this would not have even been news.

But instead they chose to use the same terror tactics that they constantly accuse Palestine of.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 4, 2010, 3:17 pm

and IF the group on the boat did not pull weapons there is a good chance they would still be alive. At least just admit that.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 4, 2010, 3:22 pm

Aabidano wrote:Gandhi was non-violent, you'll note he didn't have a club, flash bang grenades or a knife stashed in his loincloth.

Are you fucking retarded?

It was the Israelis who hit the boat with gas grenades and flashbangs.

I don't think Ghandi was ever stomed by armed commandos

and IF the group on the boat did not pull weapons there is a good chance they would still be alive. At least just admit that.

So if an intruder breaks into your home and you're killed trying to fight him off, it's your fault for confronting him?
Nice fucking logic!