NFL News/Discussion 2009

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 15, 2009, 12:12 am

Any football brainiacs out there still calling LT2 a better RB than AP this year or you finally wake up a year late?

For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMfeXmYIYdk

Dude was slowing up just to manhandle the defense!

Taison Earbiter · Post by **Taison Earbiter** » September 15, 2009, 2:48 am

Yeah, it would appear that AP is in a league all by himself after 1 week. I don't know what the deal with the Chargers was, either they've really fallen off or the Raiders really stepped up their game.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 15, 2009, 1:24 pm

I think its a combination of the two, Taison.

As for AP, a lot of people talk about how having a good running back opens things up for a QB, but its also true that having a QB who is a threat (percieved or real) will open up the running game for a back. Take a look at the third string RB of the Saints rushing for over 100 last week for a perfect example of this. Peterson is the best running back in the league and will consistantly get 100 yard games, but having a guy people who actually is a credible passing threat under center certainly does not hurt him. We'll see how the Vikes look when they square off the best of the AFC central in a couple weeks, for a more accurate indicator of where they are in the scheme of things.

Other comments on week 1-

Cardinals- The score was close, but man did they look bad against San Fran. I might have to revise my opinion on who will win that division, simply because the 49ers are apparently going to be the one physical team in that cream puff division, but I want to see them against a more stable team before I render judgement.

Patriots- Lucky to beat the Bills is not how you want to start a season, to be sure. Brady looks rusty, but that won't last. They better improve the pass protection, though, if they expect resume their dynasty statis.

Titans/Steelers- Tough game with horrific officiating on both sides of the ball. Probably the best game, from a strategic standpoint, of the week.

Miami- This game disapointed me and they obviously have had some fall off from last season.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 15, 2009, 7:40 pm

Jice Virago wrote: As for AP, a lot of people talk about how having a good running back opens things up for a QB, but its also true that having a QB who is a threat (percieved or real) will open up the running game for a back. Take a look at the third string RB of the Saints rushing for over 100 last week for a perfect example of this. Peterson is the best running back in the league and will consistantly get 100 yard games, but having a guy people who actually is a credible passing threat under center certainly does not hurt him. We'll see how the Vikes look when they square off the best of the AFC central in a couple weeks, for a more accurate indicator of where they are in the scheme of things.

Um, AP was an animal last year with a crap QB (and he still has a crap QB) i didn't see Favre out there throwing around defenders. Who the hell is afraid of Favre at this point? The dude sucks ass currently.

Phillip Rivers had the best QB stats of any QB last year. LT2 should have rushed for 3000 yards according to your logic.

you're talking out of your ass,

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 16, 2009, 4:30 am

I will resist the easy comment, highlighting your pro-Cardinal dick waving in comparisson to what they managed against San Fran, since your uterus probably still hurts as bad as back when you had to settle for Knibble as your cyber pal. Instead I will actually focus on something you are unfamiliar with, namely the facts.

Rivers had great stats and his team went 8-8, kind of like your Cardinals. Like the Cards, they had no fucking running game, which forced them to pass all the time (the Raiders shut them down last night, for fucks sake) and sit in the weakest division in their conference. Oh, and both teams luck ran out as soon as they ran into the Steelers. See Aaron Rodgers for another example of a QB with great stats, no running game, in a weak division. The point being, all three of these guys (Rodgers, Rivers, and Warner) had to put the ball in the air constantly just to move the chains. And even in these teams, mediocre running backs were generating respectable numbers (yes, LT is completely past his prime) considering the O-lines they had to work with.

Now, on the other side of the coin, Peterson is a beast and was one last year, to be sure. But just look at the way the defense of the Browns lined up as opposed to the 9 in the box shit he faced all last year. And Favre does not need to play in his prime, just smart. They need exactly one efficient scoring drive out of him a week, like the third quarter one last sunday, to put the game away and make people honor the pass. He is not going to have a huge stats season because its not his role in Minnesotta. The only stat he is giving a shit about at this point is the Win stat. Don't compare the Vikings situation to the Chargers, its totally different.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » September 16, 2009, 5:54 pm

and LT had a nagging toe injury all last year, leading SD to air it out more. not saying LT2 is than AP better now. he's dropped out of top 5 running backs to me. but in their prime, there is a great debate and i dont think AP has done enough. LT2 also caught a lot of screens , inflating rivers stats. and if you get really bored, look up LT2's quarterback rating.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 16, 2009, 7:21 pm

Gzette wrote:and LT had a nagging toe injury all last year, leading SD to air it out more. not saying LT2 is than AP better now. he's dropped out of top 5 running backs to me. but in their prime, there is a great debate and i dont think AP has done enough. LT2 also caught a lot of screens , inflating rivers stats. and if you get really bored, look up LT2's quarterback rating.

That's part of getting old and wearing down and was part of the discussion last year which the people here refused to believe. He's worse this year and was already wearing down last year. The people here clung on a year or two too long. I can't wait for some more arguments about fumbles or something (which LT already has done) being worth -1000 fantasy points, making LT2 just as good as AP.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » September 16, 2009, 10:31 pm

Man, if this is how obnoxious Winnow is every time he's right about something, I'm glad it doesn't happen more often.

Taison Earbiter · Post by **Taison Earbiter** » September 17, 2009, 12:07 am

LT2 in his prime was more of a complete back than AP is currently (blocking, catching, etc..). AP is a better pure runner but his game isn't well rounded yet. He may well develop into more of a complete back given time, but right now he's simply the most dominant runner in the league.

Keep in perspective the fact that it was simply week 1. AP isn't going to be busting out 180 yards and 3 TDs *every* game (I'm sure he'll have a couple more in him) and LT2 isn't going to be held in check (unless he's injured) like that all season. Really can't argue this for another 2-3 months when we see how their seasons are panning out.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 17, 2009, 1:46 am

For Bubba!

From another football thread:

Chad Ochocinco plans to do the Lambeau Leap

replies:

-its going to be kind of tough to run a full route tree and catch the ball with four bloody stumps once the crowd effectively draws and quarters him by rending his limbs from his body...

-If he tries to do that then I see him immediately being launched 25 yards BACK into the field!

-By a woman with bigger arms than his. It is Wisconsin, after all.

-Oooooooo...it's the terrifying Green Bay Packer fans...RUN AWAY!!!

It's Green Bay not Philly or Oakland. Worst that happens is someone writes John 3:16 on his helmet.

Taison Earbiter · Post by **Taison Earbiter** » September 17, 2009, 2:36 am

He won't get a touchdown, he plays for the Bengals. I'd be more surprised to see him score than to see him do the leap.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 17, 2009, 9:10 am

That'd be hilarious. I think Randy Moss attempted this once or made as if to appear he was going to do one. The fans would have pushed him back. I agree though in that Ocho won't o scoro.

edit: HA they are talking about this on the radio here this morning. The DJ's suggested that instead of throwing him back out onto the field that they take him up and body pass him to the top and not let him back onto the field. That would be hilarious.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » September 18, 2009, 8:16 pm

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » September 18, 2009, 9:50 pm

Taison Earbiter wrote: Keep in perspective the fact that it was simply week 1. AP isn't going to be busting out 180 yards and 3 TDs *every* game (I'm sure he'll have a couple more in him) and LT2 isn't going to be held in check (unless he's injured) like that all season. Really can't argue this for another 2-3 months when we see how their seasons are panning out.

My fantasy team would not have a problem with it if he did do that every week.

Taison Earbiter · Post by **Taison Earbiter** » September 20, 2009, 4:53 pm

The Washington Redskins are terrible.

They couldn't score a TD against the St. Louis Rams.

This is all.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 22, 2009, 12:29 pm

Holy shit was I wrong about Miami. How the hell can you dominate every phase of the game like that, not turn the ball over, and still lose? Colts had the fucking ball less than a quarter, for fucks sake.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 22, 2009, 3:20 pm

Jice Virago wrote:Holy shit was I wrong about Miami. How the hell can you dominate every phase of the game like that, not turn the ball over, and still lose? Colts had the fucking ball less than a quarter, for fucks sake.

That's great and all Jice and I'm gonna let you finish...

but you were wrong about the Cardinals as well. Second week, Kurt Warner set NFL record 24-26 passing, also tying team consecutive passes with 15 in a row. Cardinals look fine and their defense looking even better.

Taison Earbiter · Post by **Taison Earbiter** » September 22, 2009, 3:58 pm

They beat up on the Jaguars....0-2 coming off a 5-11 season and expecting most of their games to be blacked out due to no one giving a shit about them. I wouldn't go bragging about that victory.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 22, 2009, 5:55 pm

My brother-in-law is a recent transplant down in that area between Tempe and Mesa. He was telling us that Arizona can't sell out their games except for when the Packers or Vikings come to town. The thing is though if you want to buy a ticket to either of those games you are forced to purchase 2 other home game tickets as well for other games. WTF is up with that?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 22, 2009, 6:52 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:My brother-in-law is a recent transplant down in that area between Tempe and Mesa. He was telling us that Arizona can't sell out their games except for when the Packers or Vikings come to town. The thing is though if you want to buy a ticket to either of those games you are forced to purchase 2 other home game tickets as well for other games. WTF is up with that?

What? Every home game the past three years has been sold out since they got the new stadium.

Taison Earbiter wrote:They beat up on the Jaguars....0-2 coming off a 5-11 season and expecting most of their games to be blacked out due to no one giving a shit about them. I wouldn't go bragging about that victory.

It's always someting. Usually it's "oh weak division!" and then we beat Carolina back east last year.."oh fluke!"..then we beat another East coast non division team on the road and it's "oh they suck!"

But yes, that game was only shown in Arizona if you look at the regional broadcast maps : )

hmmmm

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 22, 2009, 8:30 pm

Actually, the Cardinals might look better simply because the 49ers may be better than everyone initially gave them credit for. Beating the crap out of the Jags is good, as is any taking care of business type game, to be sure. Thats an improvement over last season. Fortunately for the Cardinals, the rest of their division is still in the shitter, so they should manage to pull another .500 season out of their ass, which is more than I can say for the Packers at this point.

Its too bad that Warner does not have a quality running game to work with, compared to other elite QBs, because the out of division games where they play physical opposition are going to make things really rough. Brady with the Pats is having a similar problem. I would say Rogers is, but the fucking GB line might as well be made out of balsa wood cutouts at this point. Jesus fucking christ five sacks to Odom? Really? Remember my comment about wondering if the Packers can stop the run earlier in this thread? Fucking Benson runs for nearly 150 on us? Rogers didn't do himself any favors by holding on to the ball as long as he did, either. And Mike McCarthy is almost as bad of a game caller as the Redskins head coach. One would think after the same guy sacked the QB the 3rd time that there might be some adjustments, for fucks sake. I know that the D is going to take a year or two to transition to a new system, but what the fuck is up with the offense? Thank god Favre is playing for someone, because if all I had was the Packers to root for I would probably end up in the deep self denial end of the Winnoverse.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 22, 2009, 8:33 pm

Winnow wrote:
Bubba Grizz wrote:My brother-in-law is a recent transplant down in that area between Tempe and Mesa. He was telling us that Arizona can't sell out their games except for when the Packers or Vikings come to town. The thing is though if you want to buy a ticket to either of those games you are forced to purchase 2 other home game tickets as well for other games. WTF is up with that?
What? Every home game the past three years has been sold out since they got the new stadium.

Taison Earbiter wrote:They beat up on the Jaguars....0-2 coming off a 5-11 season and expecting most of their games to be blacked out due to no one giving a shit about them. I wouldn't go bragging about that victory.
It's always someting. Usually it's "oh weak division!" and then we beat Carolina back east last year.."oh fluke!"..then we beat another East coast non division team on the road and it's "oh they suck!"

But yes, that game was only shown in Arizona if you look at the regional broadcast maps : )

hmmmm

The Vikings got zero coverage or attention for the same reason this weekend, incidentally. No one really cares when you play a high school team (aka Detroit Lions) even though Favre set a record for Vikings completion percentage and all time starting streaks. I could not even find video highlights on the fucking Vikes site, so don't feel bad about the AZ blackout.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 22, 2009, 9:11 pm

It's too late to see the distribution maps for week 2 but here's week three and beyond:

http://www.the506.com/nflmaps/

Cardinals host the Colts Sunday Night this week so everyone gets to see!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 24, 2009, 8:49 pm

Cards RB Beanie Wells is still carrying a ball with his named inscribed on it after fumbling twice on Sunday. Wells said several Cards players have tried to knock the ball loose to unleash a $200 fine. "Especially coming around this corner," he said, pointing to a hallway that leads to the showers.

Jeeze, you've got to treat OhioSU players like kids. He fumbled twice the last game.

He'd be kinda good if he

-didn't fumble
-wasn't fragile
-learned some discipline in college

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » September 26, 2009, 5:31 pm

Honestly, this surprised me in a good way. A lot of athletes do a lot for thier communities and don't get a lot of recognition for it but this touched me.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20090 ... air+s+sons+

Vince Young's career may be somewhat in limbo, as he sits on Tennessee's bench, watching Kerry Collins play, his taking Steve McNair's kids to a father and son breakfast, speaks volumes to me about him as a person. He didn't have to do this, and while there are millions of kids without fathers around the world, he's making that lack a little less daunting for McNair's sons. Good on him.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » September 27, 2009, 11:04 pm

I went to UT, and I really like VY for obvious reasons. When he left college I had high hopes. He seemed like a real natural leader and had that intangible "it" that made him a winner. It's been sad to see him crumble so much. He was rookie of the year and made the pro-bowl after leading the stagnant Titans to the playoffs. I guess more of that was on the defense instead of him, but impressive nonetheless. Now I cringe when he takes snaps. He's obviously not comfortable in Tennessee. The vast majority of that is his fault, with an attitude that seemed offputting, visibly pouting on the sidelines, off the field retardation, and the final sin, refusing to go into the game.

He needs a fresh start, and he won't get one until his bling bling contract expires. There's no way another team will pick that up for what he appears to have become.

On another note: Arizona's fans suck. Don't boo your team in the first half.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 28, 2009, 12:36 am

Gzette wrote: On another note: Arizona's fans suck. Don't boo your team in the first half.

Minnesota Fans were booing their team as well today. In fact, most teams do. Maybe Packer fans being the only exception.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » September 28, 2009, 12:42 pm

that's why I said in the first half. It's not a good way to send your team into halftime when a game is still winnable. Hell the game was winnable until the early fourth, but fans gave up in the first half. i think it shows people in Ariz tend to disagree with Winnow's "not a fluke" assessment. Peyton and Warner added some evidence to that argument. Manning picked shredded that defense, most notably Rodgers-Cromardie, who was repeatedly embarrassed. Warner looked downright scared after repeatedly getting owned by Dwight Freeney. I guess you can't blame him too much for that, since Freeney is a beast. But he should have looked better as a 10+ year veteran throwing to 2 of the most talented receivers in the game. that sack for a 30 yard loss was hilarious.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » October 1, 2009, 4:17 pm

Winnow wrote:
Gzette wrote: On another note: Arizona's fans suck. Don't boo your team in the first half.

Minnesota Fans were booing their team as well today. In fact, most teams do. Maybe Packer fans being the only exception.

GB fans booed at a couple games last season. Prior to that you had to go back to the Forest Greg years to hear GB Fans boo, and then only at the Milwaukee games.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » October 1, 2009, 4:25 pm

Oh, and for once, I am not going to bag on Arizona (having spent last weekend in Phoenix, I now know how much that state sucks balls) Cardinals. I think San Fran are the real deal, but the Vikes did make some serious mistakes in that game (hello special teams?) that put them into the position of needing a Favre moment to win. San Fran has played EVERYONE tough this season and remind me a lot of the Ravens, with their balanced game and strong defense. I think the Cards loss to them is far more understandable, in retrospect. Losing to the Colts is not exactly shocking, either, as the Colts are on fire right now and Manning is completely unflappable. Simply put, the Cards do not have the talent or the coaching to match up against a team like the Colts, especially in their emotionally deflated state. I would put them on the same footing as the Cowboys and Packers right now.

Speaking of the Packers, they did pretty well in their scrimmage this weekend. If the O-line has another brain fart against the Viking D, its going to be a long fucking night next week, though.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 1, 2009, 5:52 pm

San Fran is the obvious top team in that division at this point. I do not think they are a fluke either. At the beginning of the season, I figured Seattle to own that one, but injuries and a rusty QB (who is now injured again) have already undermined their season.

Back to more interesting teams....

I think Denver may surprise many of the naysayers against Dallas this weekend. Even against shoddy teams, one cannot deny how impressive the defense has been. Picking up Hill, Goodman and Dawkins in the secondary was simply fantastic.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 1, 2009, 7:17 pm

Sept 6th

Winnow wrote:I don't get the Seahawk love in the West. If anyone, the 49'ers have a better shot than the Seahawls to unseat the Cardinals. The Seahwks have a horrendous O-Line made even worse this year with the off season knee surgery to Walter Jones. he's been useless in the pre season.

You people picking the Seahawks are living in the past and not doing your research. The Cardinals should cruise through this division but if there is a challenge, it's not coming from the Seahawks.

A little late to the party people?

Cardinals will still win the division. Hows The Boot, er LT2 faring vs AP so far?

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » October 1, 2009, 8:43 pm

they're still shitty

edit: Will you now root for the 49ers, like you do for USC?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 1, 2009, 10:46 pm

Anyone wants one, send me your address!

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » October 2, 2009, 8:37 am

Winnow wrote: A little late to the party people?

Cardinals will still win the division. Hows The Boot, er LT2 faring vs AP so far?

1) Its only a couple weeks into the season, so its a little early to be passing too many judgements on anything

2) the Shithawks...er Seahawks have the samw 1-2 record as the Cardinals.

And a total tangent but WTF is up with all these NFL teams keeping the names when they pull the plug and move to a different city? At least Tennessee changed theirs from Oilers to Titans, but to old people like me, the Rams belong in LA, the Cardinals belong in St Louis (like the baseball team and the bloody bird that's their namesake; do they even have bird in Arizona besides buzzards???) and the Colts, well its hard since Baltimore has the Ravens now but they could have named them something else...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 2, 2009, 12:59 pm

Wulfran wrote: And a total tangent but WTF is up with all these NFL teams keeping the names when they pull the plug and move to a different city? At least Tennessee changed theirs from Oilers to Titans, but to old people like me, the Rams belong in LA, the Cardinals belong in St Louis (like the baseball team and the bloody bird that's their namesake; do they even have bird in Arizona besides buzzards???) and the Colts, well its hard since Baltimore has the Ravens now but they could have named them something else...

lol, that's not the worst of it Wulfran.

When the Cardinals first moved here they were called the "Phoenix Cardinals"

That's two birds in one title! They remained the Phoenix Cardinals for several seasons before becoming the Arizona Cardinals. There was a big push to change their logo and name. I'm used to the name after 20 years now but wouldn't have minded a name change (and management) back when they arrived.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 2, 2009, 3:08 pm

The Utah Jazz has got to be the worst relocation not changing their name offender out there.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 5, 2009, 2:14 pm

Elvis Dumerville is my hero. DOOM just brings it, every Sunday.

Denver 4-0

I am still leery of Orton--even though he has no interceptions so far--he has issues leading his receivers and has narrowly escaped about 6 picks by my count. Maybe I am just being nitpicky...

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » October 5, 2009, 4:04 pm

Canelek wrote:Elvis Dumerville is my hero. DOOM just brings it, every Sunday.

Denver 4-0

I am still leery of Orton--even though he has no interceptions so far--he has issues leading his receivers and has narrowly escaped about 6 picks by my count. Maybe I am just being nitpicky...

No, you're right about Orton, he sucks. Play some better Defenses and it'll show. Also when you have Tony Romo in the game on the other side, it's like watching Dumb and Dumber.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 5, 2009, 5:34 pm

Fair enough, and there will be plenty of people that will still discount the Denver defense, but holding the top-rated rushing team to 70-something yards is nothing to scoff at. Not to mention the obvious hustle and big-time tackling we can all see on the TV. As Roy Williams about that part.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 5, 2009, 5:41 pm

And here are the keys to tonight's game! Brought to you by the Onion.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » October 5, 2009, 6:02 pm

I added Dumerville to my team to replace someone on Bye. He did awesome for me.

The entire town is freaking out about tonights game. The overall theme is Hope for the best but Expect the worst. Not one person I talked to has the Gung Ho Packers feeling about this game. A lot of things have to work out just right.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » October 5, 2009, 6:27 pm

Psyloche wrote:
Canelek wrote:Elvis Dumerville is my hero. DOOM just brings it, every Sunday.

Denver 4-0

I am still leery of Orton--even though he has no interceptions so far--he has issues leading his receivers and has narrowly escaped about 6 picks by my count. Maybe I am just being nitpicky...
No, you're right about Orton, he sucks. Play some better Defenses and it'll show. Also when you have Tony Romo in the game on the other side, it's like watching Dumb and Dumber.

He's 28 and 12 as a starter. Really sucks huh.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 5, 2009, 8:39 pm

I'll take the Packers in this one.

I hope Favre makes a fool of himself but that's only wishful thinking.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » October 5, 2009, 10:04 pm

Aardor wrote:He's 28 and 12 as a starter. Really sucks huh.

He just hasn't ever impressed me. I wouldn't be so quick to count every game he won being done so only because of him.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » October 6, 2009, 2:04 am

Psyloche wrote:
Aardor wrote:He's 28 and 12 as a starter. Really sucks huh.
He just hasn't ever impressed me. I wouldn't be so quick to count every game he won being done so only because of him.

I didn't, you claim he sucks. I think your statement is idiotic. I also stated his win/losses so it would show that he has played enough games to blow your "play better defenses" statement out of the water.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » October 6, 2009, 9:17 am

He's played in games where his team won but that doesn't imply he did well against those defenses, to me. His passing stats say to me, even though he was in plenty games on the winning side, it wasn't due to him. He's done well this year, but I don't consider any of the teams he's played so far as good defenses.

So I don't agree with you saying my statement is "idiotic" or how his win/loss ratio in games played, with shitty passing stats "blows my argument out of the water".

Also, meant to reply to Cane earlier, I kind of like the Denver D. I just don't like Orton, but apparently I'm idiotic for thinking he sucks.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » October 6, 2009, 9:31 am

Well the outcome was not unexpected. However, we did shut down the run for the most part. We let Favre pass the ball. I would have expected better defense on 3rd down or at least the pretense of a pass rush. Why is it that the Packers seem so fragile while the rest of the football world are just tanks? Oh well, on to the Bye week and then we'll be back at it.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » October 6, 2009, 1:31 pm

My statements about the MNF game:

1) 5 years of TT/MM and they have a worse win percentage than Lindey Infante did. This is a direct result of lack of lack of depth development on both lines. So glad we are far below the cap again.....

2) Rodgers is gonna die out there. Seriously, one out of five drop backs results in a sack? Nearly half in knockdowns? Granted he held on to the ball too long on some of them, but for fucks sake no one is going to have a chance when you average giving up 5 sacks a game.

3) I am not as angy at our D as many, as the scheme transition is going to take a year or two to gel. The issue is that we cannot dedicate enough draft and FA resources to the change because of the atrocious O-Line situation.

4) Rodgers is a better technical and stat qb than Favre, plus he comes to play, but he does not have the kind of leadership that elevates others around him like Favre does. This was his reputation when he was a Cal Bear and it is the same now. We don't need him to be a leader, but someone sure as hell does on offense. Ideally, we need a punishing RB who has that kind of charisma about them, but there are not a lot of those out there these days.

5) Favre makes the Vikings a better team. Without him, they are 2-2 right now. He is not as good as he was in his prime, but his experience and leadership make up for his physical falloff. Thank god that Chidress called off the dogs so it looked close at the end, because that could have just as easily been a 37-14 rounting.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 6, 2009, 6:47 pm

Psyloche wrote:He's played in games where his team won but that doesn't imply he did well against those defenses, to me. His passing stats say to me, even though he was in plenty games on the winning side, it wasn't due to him. He's done well this year, but I don't consider any of the teams he's played so far as good defenses.

So I don't agree with you saying my statement is "idiotic" or how his win/loss ratio in games played, with shitty passing stats "blows my argument out of the water".

Also, meant to reply to Cane earlier, I kind of like the Denver D. I just don't like Orton, but apparently I'm idiotic for thinking he sucks.

I agree with ya man, and I am a hardcore Denver fan. OK, maybe I don't think Orton sucks, but I agree regarding his actual skill rather than his win-loss record. By that I mean that he has a below average arm, is not accurate outside of 10 yards and is horrid at long-ball accuracy. Luckily, once Marshall gets going (well, that game winning catch & run was a helluva start), that can make up for his woeful arm.

McDaniels offense does not rely on the long ball so much, so Orton fits in this regard.

One thing I DO like about Orton is his decision making skills. He does his check downs and if nothing is there he will throw the ball away. When the pocket collapses and he is forced to gamble, things do not go well. This is also in part to his lack of speed and elusiveness. I think Marino could take Orton in the 40. Then again, I was always used to having an agile QB from Elway to Plummer to Cutler.

I feel much better about Denver and Orton every week, obviously. And he was a far better answer than Phil Simm's albino kid.

Yes, Orton wins games, but not because he is better than average. It is because he fits on teams that have strengths (running backs, defense, special teams) that do not REQUIRE him to be better than average.