I love being right.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » August 18, 2009, 3:58 pm

Change schmange. I'm one that thought, then and now, that Obama is preferable to the other option, but I had no illusions about the reality of the situation. Look at my posts during the campaign last year and you'll see that going way back, I've said that any Democrat, and Obama specifically, is too moderate to ever accomplish sweeping change (at least the sort the I'm interested in). From my perspective on the left end of the spectrum, it's hard to distinguish the differences between Democrats and Republicans way over there to the right of the center. I can't be too disappointed that someone I've always described as "too moderate" is too moderate.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » August 18, 2009, 4:31 pm

Xatrei wrote:I can't be too disappointed that someone I've always described as "too moderate" is too moderate.

Are you saying you're moderately disappointed?

Fash wrote:Then it's a damn good thing it's not up to you. Move to some communist country and enjoy your free health care. Get a job, hippy.

Nice troll. You're just like the scream-heads they keep plastering all over cable news at town hall meetings.

Institute of Medicine of the National Academies wrote:Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage.

I hope left and right can at least agree that the current system is fucked and go from there.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 18, 2009, 4:52 pm

I was just trolling Xatrei

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » August 18, 2009, 5:02 pm

Aabidano wrote:I was just trolling Xatrei

I know, I was just preempting the "yeah, lulz - obamajesus isn't the omgmakeitallbetter wizard u thought! harhar" BS from the peanut gallery.

Gzette wrote:Are you saying you're moderately disappointed?

hahah

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » August 18, 2009, 5:30 pm

Xatrei wrote:
Aabidano wrote:I was just trolling Xatrei
I know, I was just preempting the "yeah, lulz - obamajesus isn't the omgmakeitallbetter wizard u thought! harhar" BS from the peanut gallery.

Gzette wrote:Are you saying you're moderately disappointed?
hahah

I think a lot of the "yeah, lulz - obamajesus isn't the omgmakeitallbetter wizard u thought!" crap is coming out because there was a faction of people, some on this board, that did tout him as the almighty savior. "Once Obama is in life is gonna change..."

I never thought he would change much, but my vote for him was a statement of unhappiness. I voted AGAINST every incumbent on the last ballot, regardless of party. I wanted to voice my own little protest against the idiocracy you mentioned earlier.

Drolgin Steingrinder · August 18, 2009, 6:06 pm

Tyek wrote:
Xatrei wrote:
Aabidano wrote:I was just trolling Xatrei
I know, I was just preempting the "yeah, lulz - obamajesus isn't the omgmakeitallbetter wizard u thought! harhar" BS from the peanut gallery.

Gzette wrote:Are you saying you're moderately disappointed?
hahah

I think a lot of the "yeah, lulz - obamajesus isn't the omgmakeitallbetter wizard u thought!" crap is coming out because there was a faction of people, some on this board, that did tout him as the almighty savior. "Once Obama is in life is gonna change..."

I never thought he would change much, but my vote for him was a statement of unhappiness. I voted AGAINST every incumbent on the last ballot, regardless of party. I wanted to voice my own little protest against the idiocracy you mentioned earlier.

Bush and the Reign of Error had managed to fuck things up so bad, ANYone else looked a little bit like Jesus. I'm just happy that the US has a president one might be able to look up to on an intellectual level, a man who can string a sentence together, think (fairly well) on his feet and not need Darth Rove and the other Sith Lords in his earpiece to formulate policy. I don't agree on a lot of things, and like Xatrei I think any electable candidate is going to be way too moderate for the changes needed, but at least here's a man who thinks about the decisions he's making and doesn't just pray for an answer.

I've said it before and it's still true: the worst thing to happen to US politics is the institutionalized two-party system. All block politics accomplishes is reducing governing to a us (as in "we", not as in United States)-vs-them mentality. Sports teams. Bullshit. Fearmongering. Alienation. Verfremdung.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » August 18, 2009, 6:09 pm

Darth Rove is to George W Bush as Rahm Emanuel is to Barack H Obama.

Drolgin Steingrinder · August 18, 2009, 6:28 pm

Fash wrote:Darth Rove is to George W Bush as Rahm Emanuel is to Barack H Obama.

mmmm, nah, I don't agree. Rahm registers far lower on the sinister evil overlord scale.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » August 18, 2009, 6:42 pm

Rahm is cunning while rove is cunning and amoral. He's not even in the same ball park as Rove.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » August 18, 2009, 6:58 pm

is he a cunning linguist?

Please do not take my posts as supporting Bush or the last 8 years, I am just pointing out a lot of people are giving Obama a lot more leeway on things they would have gone apeshit over during the Bush years. If that email program was run during the Bush years, the Senator was right, it would have created a shitstorm. I also understand Bush did a lot of crap where most of his motives were questionable so maybe he deserved what he got.

I do find it funny though. Everyone says how dumb he is, yet he apparently was so evil and brilliant he got things past and through that saintly group of Democrats controlling Congress. You can't have it both ways, either he was a sinister, shrewd, manipulative mad scientist that controlled everything, or (more likely) a simple man, well over his head, that allowed both parties to manipulate him to do what they wanted AND take the blame.

If he accomplished so much, then you have to admit the guy was not a good leader but an amazing politician. He had the lowest Presendential rating ever and did everything he was blamed for?

Drolgin Steingrinder · August 18, 2009, 7:13 pm

TBH I don't think HE did all that much. He was the most obvious figurehead president in my lifetime... or maybe Jon Stewart is right: GWB doesn't talk like a stupid person, he talks like someone talking to a stupid person. Shrug. Good riddance to him.

In all fairness, I have to say this, though: I'm surprised at the grace with which he's dealt with post-oval office life. No bullshit comments from him, no obvious pressure being put. That's far more classy than I expected of him (of course, Cheney, Rove et. al. have acted as crassly and gracelessly as expected).

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » August 18, 2009, 9:22 pm

Fash wrote:Darth Rove is to George W Bush as Rahm Emanuel is to Barack H Obama.

No way, Rahm Emanuel's brother is the basis for the best character on television =P.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » August 18, 2009, 11:31 pm

Aardor wrote:
Fash wrote:Darth Rove is to George W Bush as Rahm Emanuel is to Barack H Obama.
No way, Rahm Emanuel's brother is the basis for the best character on television =P.

Oh House, how I love thee and your belittling attitude coupled with your medicinal miracles.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 18, 2009, 11:44 pm

Ari Gold ftw. He's up there with Al Swearengen in my book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKNV5foRiL4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyXeClFPNfA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkC92MraU8s

Zver · Post by **Zver** » August 19, 2009, 9:57 am

hopefully this will all be over in 3 years

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 19, 2009, 11:21 am

All that matters to me is that Republicans are NOT in power. Obama may disappoint me, but he'll never disgust or embarass me. ..........................

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 19, 2009, 4:06 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla_del_Sol

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 19, 2009, 4:08 pm

Xyun wrote:All that matters to me is that Republicans are NOT in power. Obama may disappoint me, but he'll never disgust or embarass me. ..........................

Wait until you find out he's the author of the pictures of himself naked with unicorns. (Just search for "obama unicorns")

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 20, 2009, 1:46 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla_del_Sol

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UT ... 7&t=h&z=14

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 20, 2009, 2:10 am

Midnyte I thought you were done with VV? You are obviously still infatuated with this forum and the people who express their views here. Limiting your posts to lazy linking and avoiding to post your personal commentary doesn't make it any less obvious.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 20, 2009, 5:33 am

drolg wrote:In all fairness, I have to say this, though: I'm surprised at the grace with which he's dealt with post-oval office life. No bullshit comments from him, no obvious pressure being put. That's far more classy than I expected of him

He's happy to be out of the spotlight, and knows that any step back into it will just kick up fresh hatred that he doesn't need. That said, I'm sure his views and the attention he can get will be put to use somehow, someday, by somebody with money.

Keverian FireCry wrote:Midnyte I thought you were done with VV? You are obviously still infatuated with this forum and the people who express their views here. Limiting your posts to lazy linking and avoiding to post your personal commentary doesn't make it any less obvious.

so what, nazi? this thread rules. o no its midnyte better hate!

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 20, 2009, 10:49 am

Fash wrote:Right now I contribute $112 every 4 weeks... I could easily afford to pay more if that's what it took for something so important

Then I hope you're happy getting maybe $80 of coverage for that money while the other $32 goes straight into an investor's pocket. That's assuming you'll be allowed the treatment you need if and when you need it instead of them weaseling out of paying.

I have always been a proponent of what they're calling co-ops... but people have to contribute for their own coverage... and some people need to die.

Well thanks for being so honest about it. I'll never understand the value system that underpins these beliefs. You're happy to let people die, sometimes for the want of just a few dollars worth of meds? Do they still dump senile old people at hospitals with no ID as well?
Well it's your country and you have the right to run it as barbarically as you like. Just don't get offended when the rest of the civilized world expresses bemusement about it.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 20, 2009, 10:51 am

He's happy to be out of the spotlight, and knows that any step back into it will just kick up fresh hatred that he doesn't need.

What are you his fucking mommy?
Go and kiss his booboos better.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 20, 2009, 2:15 pm

http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSIN ... 0420/1319/

Post by **Sylvus** » August 20, 2009, 2:34 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUSIN ... 0420/1319/

You've come a long way, Midnyte. I like how you're posting reasonable articles that show both how the Canadian system works and how the proposed plans in the US will be totally different than Canada. Kudos to your maturation!

freep wrote:Critics of a health care system like Canada's -- a publicly funded system that pays for medically necessary care determined by provinces -- often cite gaps in Canada's care to argue that the United States should not allow its current debate over health care to move it to a socialized system.

No plan currently under discussion in Congress calls for a universal plan like Canada's, but opponents fear socialized medicine, anyway.

Canada's U.S. backup care "speaks volumes to why we don't need government to take over health care," Scott Hagerstrom, the state director in Michigan for Americans for Prosperity, said of the Canadian arrangements with Michigan hospitals. "Their system doesn't work if they have to send us their patients."

But Dr. Uwe Reinhardt, a Princeton University health economist who has studied the U.S. and Canadian health systems, said arrangements with cities like Detroit "are a terrific way to manage capacity" given Canada's smaller health care budget.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 20, 2009, 3:35 pm

Detroit hospitals are prolly happy as fuck to get Canadian patients because they actually get paid, as opposed too all those uninsured Americans who actually live there. Isn't it ironic, don'tcha think?

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 20, 2009, 6:54 pm

vn_Tanc wrote:
He's happy to be out of the spotlight, and knows that any step back into it will just kick up fresh hatred that he doesn't need.
What are you his fucking mommy?
Go and kiss his booboos better.

I was theorizing why he's being quiet. I don't understand the hostility.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 20, 2009, 9:49 pm

I'm actually happy that Mid is back posting again. I am just tired of the dramatic exits people make when they vow to never come back to VV...

If you're going to start up again by posting links, you may as well comment on the links you're posting and be involved in the discussions that you initiate.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » August 20, 2009, 9:59 pm

Keverian FireCry wrote:I'm actually happy that Mid is back posting again. I am just tired of the dramatic exits people make when they vow to never come back to VV...

FUCK YOU. I am tired of your shit and this stupid fucking website. I'm out.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 20, 2009, 10:21 pm

FUCK YOU. I am tired of your shit and this stupid fucking website. I'm out.

I'll eagerly await your next posts to explain why you don't give a shit about any of us anymore and why you don't owe anyone an explanation.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 21, 2009, 2:06 am

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 21, 2009, 2:11 am

That pancake looks really tasty.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » August 21, 2009, 10:19 am

I was watching the Daily Show last night: anti-gov't healthcare reformist and former Republican Lt Gov of New York, Betsy McCaughey, admitted at one point that "46% of patients are undertreated" in the US health care system as it works today (it still strikes me as ironic that a comedy host does more actual journalism that many in the "real" news media, but thats another story). Thats not talking about people who aren't covered because they can't afford it, but people in the system. That seems broken to me... badly, and my hypothesis is that it is because you have private insurance companies approving/disapproving treatments rather than the physicians themselves. Its a conflict of interest that many don't want to address: the insurance companies profit by limiting the treatments that they are responsible for administering. Now I realize I'm not as intricately acquainted with the US health care system as many of you (my experience being mostly second hand via friends and family), and I don't necessarily think the US needs to convert to the Canadian model that I grew up with, but until this conflict of interest is resolved, health care will be a major issue in the US. Removing it won't necessarily solve all the problems in the system either, as I don't think there is a "perfect health care system" and with something that large and expensive there will always be debate about how to make more efficient, but right now, thats the biggest issue I see.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 21, 2009, 11:40 am

Which is why I think the so called "death panels" are a step in the right direction. They're required to have at least 1 medical doctor on them, which is more than the zero doctors who've been determining our health care needs under the current system.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 21, 2009, 12:03 pm

When Moore made the film "Sicko", he scored big points with me by not making a film based people without health care. Instead he focused on people that already have insurance that are just getting denied for whatever reason. The health care coverage that you pay for will not cover many, many things. You just have to be in the situation to find out what they will deny.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 21, 2009, 12:45 pm

You fuckers are all wrong. Midnyte is right.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 21, 2009, 12:52 pm

I personally think that health care should be a right, not a privilege... Right up there with police protection and the fire department.

I don't think many Americans would find it acceptable to have to pay a third party corporation for police and fire insurance... and to have their protection reviewed on a case by case basis by an employee of said corporation.

could you imagine if your house caught on fire and the fire department had to wait for approval from insurance company before they could start putting out the fire?

Or what if your daughter was assaulted and raped but your insurance company decided that because she was wearing a short skirt and/or revealing clothing that they won't cover the police investigation.

I think it's just ridiculous that so many people find it acceptable to place their health and welfare in the hands of a private company whose prime concern is profit.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 21, 2009, 1:08 pm

Welcome to "Firefighting in the 1800's".

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 21, 2009, 2:35 pm

miir wrote:I personally think that health care should be a right, not a privilege... Right up there with police protection and the fire department.

I don't think many Americans would find it acceptable to have to pay a third party corporation for police and fire insurance... and to have their protection reviewed on a case by case basis by an employee of said corporation.

could you imagine if your house caught on fire and the fire department had to wait for approval from insurance company before they could start putting out the fire?

Or what if your daughter was assaulted and raped but your insurance company decided that because she was wearing a short skirt and/or revealing clothing that they won't cover the police investigation.

I think it's just ridiculous that so many people find it acceptable to place their health and welfare in the hands of a private company whose prime concern is profit.

While I do think changes to the health care system are in order, I disagree for other reasons. Bottom line being I'm a greedy fucker and I would be happier than a pig in shit if not a single penny of mine went to anyone else for anything. At least I can admit it.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » August 21, 2009, 2:45 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:While I do think changes to the health care system are in order, I disagree for other reasons. Bottom line being I'm a greedy fucker and I would be happier than a pig in shit if not a single penny of mine went to anyone else for anything. At least I can admit it.

I don't really like the idea of footing the bill for somebody else, but I also realize when (not if) I do require treatment for something, the money paying for it won't be soley my own and if it was, I would be financially destroyed... probably. That kind of leads into another issue of the high price of actual medical tests etc, and I don't have a fucking clue on how to make that lower.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 21, 2009, 3:01 pm

Psyloche wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:While I do think changes to the health care system are in order, I disagree for other reasons. Bottom line being I'm a greedy fucker and I would be happier than a pig in shit if not a single penny of mine went to anyone else for anything. At least I can admit it.
I don't really like the idea of footing the bill for somebody else, but I also realize when (not if) I do require treatment for something, the money paying for it won't be soley my own and if it was, I would be financially destroyed... probably. That kind of leads into another issue of the high price of actual medical tests etc, and I don't have a fucking clue on how to make that lower.

True, I do see that. My brother for example owes like $20k+ in hospital bills currently.. Granted it was a result of him drinking and driving and getting in a high speed chase with the cops, but I don't know what happens in that situation.. I mean, he doesn't have anything for them to take to make up for any of the money so I guess the only thing that could happen would be them putting him in jail. I know he has been making small payments every month but at that rate he'd have to live to be like 500 to pay it off.

I don't claim to have any solution to the problem either. It's really complicated and there are all sorts of different corporations and jobs and government agencies, laws, policies etc that would have to change. I guess it will be interesting to see what happens.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 21, 2009, 3:15 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:My brother for example owes like $20k+ in hospital bills currently.. Granted it was a result of him drinking and driving and getting in a high speed chase with the cops...

Being an asshole must run in the family.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 21, 2009, 3:18 pm

Bottom line being I'm a greedy fucker and I would be happier than a pig in shit if not a single penny of mine went to anyone else for anything.

But it already is.

But I guess you're OK with that because it's going to a privately owned corporation who only real concern is the bottom line... and that's "The American Way". They aren't accountable to you, they are accountable to their shareholders.

Do you not see how utterly fucking asinine that is?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 21, 2009, 3:27 pm

Spang wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:My brother for example owes like $20k+ in hospital bills currently.. Granted it was a result of him drinking and driving and getting in a high speed chase with the cops...
Being an asshole must run in the family.

We try our hardest!

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 21, 2009, 3:29 pm

miir wrote:
Bottom line being I'm a greedy fucker and I would be happier than a pig in shit if not a single penny of mine went to anyone else for anything.
But it already is.

But I guess you're OK with that because it's going to a privately owned corporation who only real concern is the bottom line... and that's "The American Way". They aren't accountable to you, they are accountable to their shareholders.

Do you not see how utterly fucking asinine that is?

Because there is a big difference there. I pay for it like I pay for any other service I use. The issue I have is paying for other people to get something that can't/won't/don't want to pay for themselves, and that doesn't just go for health care.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 21, 2009, 3:37 pm

So you're paying health insurance for 20-30 years until the day that you happen to require a operation/procedure/etc that may save your life and they insurance company says they won't cover it...

And if you try to get insurance with another company but get refused because of your 'existing condition'...

You're ok with that?

And to further proove my point... NOTHING in the health care reforms that have been brought forth by Obama involves giving free health care to anyone.
It's all about giving people OPTIONS.

It's ironic that during the Bush administration, you had no qualms with your tax dollars being used to line the pockets of war profiteering corporations making BILLIONS... but the moment there's any suggestion of your tax dollars going to help improve the quality of life of your fellow American citizens, you are TOTALLY FUCKING OUTRAGED!!!!!

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 21, 2009, 3:56 pm

I'm posting from my phone, but I just read somewhere that there is a CEO of some insurance company that is a billionaire. For ever $700 spent on heathcare in the US, he earns a dollar. Fucking crazy. No idea how people can be ok with that.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 21, 2009, 4:09 pm

miir wrote:So you're paying health insurance for 20-30 years until the day that you happen to require a operation/procedure/etc that may save your life and they insurance company says they won't cover it...

And if you try to get insurance with another company but get refused because of your 'existing condition'...

You're ok with that?

And to further proove my point... NOTHING in the health care reforms that have been brought forth by Obama involves giving free health care to anyone.
It's all about giving people OPTIONS.

It's ironic that during the Bush administration, you had no qualms with your tax dollars being used to line the pockets of war profiteering corporations making BILLIONS... but the moment there's any suggestion of your tax dollars going to help improve the quality of life of your fellow American citizens, you are TOTALLY FUCKING OUTRAGED!!!!!

You are all over the place on this dude, I never said any of the shit you are blabbing about in this post. I never said the health care system was perfect, in fact I said the exact opposite two posts ago. I don't like the government controlling any more than they have to, because they will be just as bad as the corporations when it comes to bending shit to their will, health care is no different. You think that if there was a government option that it wouldn't fuck up the private option, thus really eliminating true "options" (had to say it one more time)? I do.

The whole Bush thing is bullshit too, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about, so focus. Not to mention I don't recall ever saying I had no problems with big corporate America.

You seem a bit wound up today, sir.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 21, 2009, 4:19 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:I don't like the government controlling any more than they have to, because they will be just as bad as the corporations when it comes to bending shit to their will, health care is no different.

You should move to Somalia. You'd like it there. There's absolutely no government there to interfere with your selfish lifestyle.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 21, 2009, 4:22 pm

Just one question:

Do you have any logical reason to be opposed to government run/sponsored health insurance plan?