How far from?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 12, 2009, 12:15 am

Hi guys,

Out of curiosity, how far, driving wise, are you all from major cities in your rough area? Being Irish, I'm on a tiny island, so I'm never more than 3 hours away from Dublin or Belfast, regardless of where I go.

I remember travelling to the US several years back and seeing a sign say "Los Angeles 1000km". Living where I do, that blew my mind. Given that the US is such a monumentally massive landmass, how far are you from certain areas? This applies to the canadians and Aussies here too.

You can choose your destination, as long as it's a relatively well known place, either to you or the rest of the world.

For me, well, living on an island, I'll use plane trips as a legitimate way of getting about. I'm an hour and a half from Paris, 2 hours to Barcelona. 45 minutes to London. Less than 2 hours to Amsterdam and Berlin. Since most of you chaps live on a giant landmass, how much could we expect for say, Winnow, to travel to LA, or Zealath to Perth, in Australia.

I'm just bored, so let me know

Fash · Post by **Fash** » August 12, 2009, 12:29 am

I'm 2 hours from both Philadelphia and New York... 3 hours from Atlantic City.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 12, 2009, 12:48 am

30 minutes from Detroit, 6 hours from Chicago. 12 hours (back me up on this one Michiganders) from NYC. It takes longer to drive to Houghton (top of the Northern Peninsula) than to the East coast from where I live.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 12, 2009, 1:23 am

I'm 4 hours from Atlanta.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 12, 2009, 1:40 am

12 miles from downtown Indianapolis. Unfortunately. Hate this state! Anyway, that's about 2.5-3 hours from Chicago. Not sure on other areas since that depends on which way you go.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 12, 2009, 1:43 am

Do you guys regularly visit these, well, awesome places? Chicago, New York etc?

If I was near there I'd go check them out inside out upside down :O

Edit: Spang, I said real places

:P:P:P (don't worry, could be worse, could be Belfast mate

)

Ah, another question: How do you find these places, if or when you visit them. What are they really like? I've been to New York, but only momentarily (I even stood on top of one of the twin towers!)

Surely such huge cities are massively interesting. .... or maybe I'm just a potato bumpkin with too much time and a big imagination

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 12, 2009, 2:08 am

About 5 hours from San Diego
About 5 hours from Las Vegas

Everything else besides Tucson and the Grand Canyon is "hella" far away. (Albuquerque doesn't count)

Phoenix is nice an isolated.

Reno up in the left corner would be a 14 hour drive from Phoenix for example if you didn't stop. Probably around the same time to get to Denver.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 12, 2009, 2:52 am

Nick wrote:Do you guys regularly visit these, well, awesome places? Chicago, New York etc?

If I was near there I'd go check them out inside out upside down :O

Edit: Spang, I said real places :P:P:P (don't worry, could be worse, could be Belfast mate )

Ah, another question: How do you find these places, if or when you visit them. What are they really like? I've been to New York, but only momentarily (I even stood on top of one of the twin towers!)

Surely such huge cities are massively interesting. .... or maybe I'm just a potato bumpkin with too much time and a big imagination

If I had the money I'd check them out inside out upside down and I sure as fuck wouldn't be living in Michigan. It's just a matter of time..

NYC is very smelly, and smells different every 5 feet or so. The scene is awesome. I went to my first club there ever when I was 20 and it was just insane how NYC people party. I want to live there some day, but I'll probably end up with my true love Colorado.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 12, 2009, 3:18 am

Winnow, presumably, you have been to the grand canyon. Does it merit a trip, from say, anyone on earth. Or Is it a place "worth going to see but not worth going to see." ?

To me, it looks like a beautiful place well worth visiting.

As for LA, New York etc. How would you describe your own experiences of these places. What's Reno like? and Denver? !

I'm just being nosy and bored

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » August 12, 2009, 8:52 am

Nick wrote:Edit: Spang, I said real places :P:P:P (don't worry, could be worse, could be Belfast mate )

The Atlanta area is about 6 million people (about that of your island

), and the 8th largest metro area in the country. It's also a pretty cool city, except for the horrible traffic. I'd say that qualifies as a real place.

By car, I'm about 2.5 hours from Atlanta, 10.5 hours from Chicago, 12.5 hours from Miami, 15 hours from New York City, 30 hours from Los Angeles.

By plane, and including all of the retarded security delays and layovers/connecting flights, I'm 10-12 hours from most major western European cities.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » August 12, 2009, 9:08 am

I've gone to New York quite a bit, but it's not a place I'd go alone or without a reason... I've gone to Atlantic City a lot, it's an awesome place, and I have a vacation scheduled there the first week of September.

I've gone to Philadelphia just to get a cheese steak from Geno's, and then turned around.

I lived about 5 miles from downtown Philly between 2000-2001 while working in NJ, and spent most of the time avoiding the city. I'm not one for the club scene, though.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 12, 2009, 9:18 am

In visiting a lot of the major cities in the US (excluding NY, LA and Chicago), I was surprised at how small they actually are.

When I was younger, I just figured that these US cities that have NBA, MLB, NFL and NHL teams would be big cities like Toronto or Montreal... until I visited places like Boston, Detroit, Baltimore, Cleveland, Washington, etc.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 12, 2009, 10:03 am

Just in Florida (not counting traffic):
Key West - 8 hours South-ish
Pensacola - 8 hours North-ish
Orlando - 45 minutes to the near side\Disney
Jacksonville - 4 hours
Miami - 4 hours
"Space coast", Kennedy, etc... - 2 hours

Recently took a camping trip up to Savannah, very cool city 5 hours NNE of us. For anything outside of FL we generally fly, it's 1500 miles to my mother in laws and 1000 to my parents house for instance, 2500 to my cousins in Utah.

Now where do we actually go? Rarely more than 100 miles, enough to take us over to Sebastian Inlet, Cedar Key, etc..

miir wrote:When I was younger, I just figured that these US cities that have NBA, MLB, NFL and NHL teams would be big cities like Toronto or Montreal... until I visited places like Boston, Detroit, Baltimore, Cleveland, Washington, etc.

Urban sprawl makes them seem much smaller. There are ~2 million people living in my metro area, the actual "city" areas are very compact however, and no one lives in them.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 12, 2009, 10:06 am

I'm smack dap in the middle of Detroit and Chicago (less than 2 hours either direction). Chicago is awesome. Detroit is a shit hole.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 12, 2009, 10:45 am

Leonaerd wrote:30 minutes from Detroit, 6 hours from Chicago.

Wait, where do you live?

I'm about 45 minutes from Detroit and a little over 4 hours to Chicago or Toronto. Closer than that to Cleveland or Columbus, but who would want to go to fucking Ohio???

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 12, 2009, 11:20 am

Battle Creek.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » August 12, 2009, 11:26 am

I live in Green Bay, about 2 miles from the Stadium. I'm about 2 hours from Milwaukee (family) or Escanaba (friends) depending on how fast you drive and which direction. I really have no desire to go anywhere else though. If I'm going a good distance I'll fly instead. Vegas for example.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 12, 2009, 12:03 pm

Aabidano wrote:Urban sprawl makes them seem much smaller. There are ~2 million people living in my metro area, the actual "city" areas are very compact however, and no one lives in them.

That seems to be very 'American' (and to a lesser extent, Canadian) thing.

In Toronto, I think there's nearly 3 million in the actual 'City of Toronto'. That's about a 30 min subway ride east to west and 20 minute ride north to south.

I'm 10 minutes from the downtown core and 5 minutes to the eastern border of the city.
The (GTA) Greater Toronto Area is like 5.5 million.

I can hop in the car and be outside of the GTA in 15 mins. It's pretty much dense urban sprawl for 100+ KM in every direction (except south

).

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 12, 2009, 12:17 pm

4 hour drive to Miami, but only a 3 hour boat ride to Havana.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 12, 2009, 12:43 pm

About 2 hours to Seattle, then a little bit more to Victoria, BC or Vancouver. Canada is a major city, right? Actually, I really really want to drive up there next year--I hear Victoria is pretty nice.

I think it is about 9 hours to San Fransisco, give or take. Add another 6 to Los Angeles. It's a fucking hike via car.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 12, 2009, 1:11 pm

I'm 12.5 miles from downtown yet my address is still Indianapolis. Pretty much the whole of Marion county is classified as 'Indianapolis'. That's a fairly large area.

Also, the reason a lot of people don't live 'downtown' in major cities is the rent isn't cheap! At least that's been my experience. Oh and also crime for some cities I would imagine. I moved from a shitty cramped downtown apartment to a much larger place for not that much more money. I can no longer walk to work but the drive is only 20 minutes so it's not that bad.

Bagar- · Post by **Bagar-** » August 12, 2009, 3:56 pm

Xatrei wrote:
Nick wrote:Edit: Spang, I said real places :P:P:P (don't worry, could be worse, could be Belfast mate )
The Atlanta area is about 6 million people (about that of your island ), and the 8th largest metro area in the country. It's also a pretty cool city, except for the horrible traffic. I'd say that qualifies as a real place.

By car, I'm about 2.5 hours from Atlanta, 10.5 hours from Chicago, 12.5 hours from Miami, 15 hours from New York City, 30 hours from Los Angeles.

By plane, and including all of the retarded security delays and layovers/connecting flights, I'm 10-12 hours from most major western European cities.

Yeah, if you want to get shot by a destitute black person.

/channel midnyte

Oh, and to make it look like I'm giving relevant input, I live about 10 minutes away from Nashville. One of the most mediocre and boring cities in America, Nashville boasts a disproportionate number of retards, rednecks, and more retards, and is known as the "Music City" only because the only thing shittier than Nashville itself is the music produced here. Listening to what your typical Nashvilian considers "Music" is the auditory equivalent of drinking piss.

Don't come here if you want to actually enjoy yourself.

If you're going to go anywhere in Tennessee, which is not at all advised, I would advise the Knoxville (Specifically, Gatlinburg) area. At least the Smoky Mountains are aesthetically pleasing, if not just as boring as everything else in what is essentially the asscrack on the united states.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » August 12, 2009, 4:20 pm

With comments like that, you'll fit right into Nashville

I guess it depends on what part of the city you visit (which is true of virtually every city, I suppose). I like Atlanta, though. Not enough to move there because the traffic is so horrible. I've never had any problems when there, and have enjoyed every visit to the city. I used to go over to Atlanta a couple times a month, but haven't been lately. I do share your dislike for Nashville, though.

laneela · Post by **laneela** » August 12, 2009, 6:55 pm

I live in Miami so that's a major city in itself... Everything in FL worth going to is within 6 hours drive (sorry panhandlers). Most Caribbean islands are within 3-4 hours away with some being as little as 30 minutes and Mexico, Central America and Northern South American countries (Brazil, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Venezuela, etc) can be flown to from 2-4 hours. If we're talking non-stop flights, no flight within the continental US takes more than about 5 hours.

I think people in the US travel less frequently than Europeans but distance isn't the issue. The average working American gets 15-20 days off a year (this is including Christmas, Thanksgiving, etc), which if I'm not mistaken, is considerably less than the average European.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 12, 2009, 7:20 pm

Xatrei wrote:With comments like that, you'll fit right into Nashville

Every crack has it's dingleberry

I loved the FL panhandle, moved to Tampa from there. Nice people, great beaches, arguably the best fishing and diving in FL. Unfortunately there's essentially no work at a decent wage, and you can't buy a (nice) house for $55k like you could 10-15 years ago.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 12, 2009, 7:20 pm

I get 30 days off a year but it's not like I can take them all at once. I also have to synch my time off with my wife. We have 2 weeks off coming up, and we've decided to do a few day trips to various destinations instead of a week some place far away.

I can bank up to 300 hours, but who the fuck would do something like that?!? My coworker, the 55 yr old virgin who still lives with her mom and brother and has 10 cats, that's who.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 12, 2009, 9:17 pm

Nick wrote:Winnow, presumably, you have been to the grand canyon. Does it merit a trip, from say, anyone on earth. Or Is it a place "worth going to see but not worth going to see." ?

The Grand Canyon is awe inspiring for about 10 minutes. I'd say it's worth seeing but it's kind of out of the way and probably not worth the 10 minutes of uber-awesomness.

If you haven't been to the U.S, just book a ticket to Las Vegas. That's the first place you want to see. It's the most unique place you'll visit and just plain wild to see the different themed huge casinos. It's an adult playground. Also, if you go to Las Vegas, you can take a trip to the Hoover Damn (or is it Boulder?), one of the man made wonders of the world so you can see that even if you don't see a natural wonder of the world (Grand Canyon).

Phoenix and other dessert cities really aren't that interesting for tourists unless you want to relax at a resort and enjoy the weather (depending on the time of year)

Las Vegas is a sure thing.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 12, 2009, 9:55 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Leonaerd wrote:30 minutes from Detroit, 6 hours from Chicago.
Wait, where do you live?

I'm about 45 minutes from Detroit and a little over 4 hours to Chicago or Toronto. Closer than that to Cleveland or Columbus, but who would want to go to fucking Ohio???

I live in Rochester, work in Farmington Hills. Maybe I overestimated on the Chicago time?

Post by **Sylvus** » August 13, 2009, 11:11 am

Leonaerd wrote:I live in Rochester, work in Farmington Hills. Maybe I overestimated on the Chicago time?

Ahh, yeah, off by at least an hour probably. Going a normal speed (80ish), I think I can probably get there in about 3.5 hours. I point this out because you gain an hour going that way, and a lot of bars close at 4am, so you can leave to go there at like 8 or 9pm and still have plenty of time to party, we've done that a number of times.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » August 13, 2009, 4:16 pm

Beeing here in the very bottom corner of the left coast, It takes about an hour (plus due to traffic) to drive to LA, 5 hours to drive to vegas, 8 hours (1 hour flight) to Frisco, and 15 minutes to Tiajuana.

Vegas is as far east as I'll go these days, people are wierd in that dirrection. =)

Yeh the city of San Diego itself isnt all that large, 10 minutes in a car in any direction and you're in a different city, but the entire Metro area is big. Nothing like LA ,thank god, cause that town is a zoo.

A shot from the bay where u can see how close the hills are (kinda, really aresnt THAT close, must be his lense)

Ive made a few plane trips to the other side of the world (NY, Florida) and seem to recall 6 hours of flying time... toss in a couple hours of layover and thats yer day.

Yeh I'm kinda mezmerized by the diversity/proximity of europe. Park yer car, step out of the drivers door and they speak 1 launguage while yer passenger is in a place where they speak something else. Cross the street and its a whole new country. Yeh ok I know it isnt that small, but it sure looks like it on a globe!~

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 13, 2009, 9:55 pm

Bah, so many things to ask! Forgive me if I miss you: :O This was all a cool read.

1. (I guess for all of you) - For the major cities you even live in or live near, how are they? From here, it seems like Chicago is say, a commercial town, insofar that its got a small centre but has some commercially sky scrapery type things? Is there much culture there? Museums/music etc?

2. Same goes for Detroit. How come Detroits such a shithole?

3. What's Miami like? Just a tourist hub? Or is it a big commercial centre? Now, I know I could google all this and I will, but I'm just interested in your own take on it.

4. Ever been to Havana Masteen? That would be a place I'd like to go to in the next few years, just for somewhere bizarre and visually beautiful/warm etc.

5. As for Las Vegas, Winnow, you really think that would be the number 1 place in your catchment area? I dunno, since I've obviously not been there. But it looks sort of like a seedy scummy sort of place? Is it just fascinating enough for that reason that it's worth the trip?

I love fantastical and bizarre geological landscapes, so I think surely the Grand Canyon would be a nice place to see, but where else, for you all, in your (relative) backyard, would be worth a trip? The US is so huge and beautiful that places worth seeing are almost infinite, but where specifically are the nice spots (feel free to add wiki links!)

6. Canadian cities - What's your take Miir? Best ones, worst ones? I was in Canada once, for about 3 days, just north of the border from Montana. Scenery wise, it was incredibly beautiful. I hit it in summer, so it was at its peak. An incredible area in the Northern rocky mountains (well, it became flat there), but it was so unbelievably beautiful.

Fascinating thread

Edit: And aye - Irish holidays - 4 weeks paid leave + all holidays and bank holidays. It's a cushy life

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 14, 2009, 2:31 am

edit: double

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » August 14, 2009, 2:35 am

2. Same goes for Detroit. How come Detroits such a shithole?

Blacks, drugs, and a lack of incentive for new businesses, I suppose. There are pockets of Detroit that are fun, like Hamtramck, which is basically a whiteish city within the city. All of the casinos are fun, too. The best area would have to be around Comerica Park, where there's the Fillmore and Hockeytown and Chelli's Chili. Plus in that area you can walk around and not fear for your life. I haven't been around the waterfront much, where a lot of GM employees tend to live, but I've heard that area can be decent. Detroit has some undeniable charisma, too. People know that they live in one of the shittiest places in America, and if you're not an addict there's some pride that comes with being able to say that. It's reflected in the music and the bar scene, that I've noticed.

However, the majority of Detroit is spooky, sometimes downright unbearable. There are places on 7 mile where I've driven through in broad daylight and wanted nothing more than to get the fuck out. Addicts roam aimlessly. Gangs with visible weapons haunt the corners. Gas stations are dangerous as fuck to whitey. In a lot of the bad places it's expected that you run red lights, for your safety. It's bizarre how much the landscape changes in an instant when driving north-south to / from the D.

On the plus side, one can easily squat in Detroit in any number of fine houses for as long one pleases. It's always been my backup plan in case I go flat broke.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 14, 2009, 8:32 am

Rambling a bit...

The biggest problems with the inner city areas are traffic, taxes and crime, and as you can imagine the more depressed the area is, the worse it is. People leave, taxes go up, businesses leave, more people leave, etc... Pretty much everyone who can afford to get out does, or did years ago. The remainder expect someone else to fix their problems for them, as 3 generations of welfare have taught them to expect.

There's a strip across the N-Central US from Indiana to Eastern Pennsylvania (the rust belt) that's been has been hit by years of declining industry, white flight, failed social welfare programs, and on and on. The town in PA my grandparents lived in was a big, bustling steel town when I was a kid, there's nothing there but old people and grassy fields today.

The local governments and the money behind them are largely at fault, and by extension the people who live there as they keep voting the same people in. Many areas have smelled the coffee begun to make a comeback, Detroit hasn't and doesn't appear that it will anytime soon.

I grew up outside of St Louis, at the border between the 'burbs and soybeans. In the late 70s - early 80s many areas of downtown were basically war zones. I think the population of the city itself was around 1.2 million, and the metro area ~2 million. Today there's 4 million in the county, and 400k (I think) in the city itself, which isn't part of the county. It's really weird to drive around, grassy lots, abandoned buildings, old factories, etc...

I used to get students from the UK and France in a course I taught years ago, more than once I caught them making weekend plans not realizing the scale of things. Things like Disneyworld in the morning, Miami in the afternoon, and "pop over to LA" on Sunday.

There's a lot of neat stuff all over the US and Canada, but they're both very large, and there's lots of nothing in between the interesting bits. We took a month once and drove across the US on I-80, making side trips up and down, going basically everyplace interesting. Some days we made it 400 miles, some days only 100, or none at all if there was something especially interesting. No hotels\motels for a lot of it, you had to be willing to camp.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » August 14, 2009, 8:48 am

1. (I guess for all of you) - For the major cities you even live in or live near, how are they? From here, it seems like Chicago is say, a commercial town, insofar that its got a small centre but has some commercially sky scrapery type things? Is there much culture there? Museums/music etc?

Culture? I got yer culture right h.... Oh I mean...

You eurotrash types have culture that dates back millenia. An amphiteater in Rome, a temple in Greece, hell you probably have a castle in your back yard. Here on this side of the pond everything is new. Especially in California. Our history dates back to what, 1820? Your corner pub has been open longer than that. Thats not to say it's completely void of interesting stuff, just not as awe inspiring as The Circus Maximus or Stonehenge.

In San Diego the oldest Buildings would be the Missions. Conquistadors didnt just rape and pillage.

Circa 1885(ish)

Today

So we here in the states make up for the lack of that long standing national identity with fast cars, atom bombs, cell phones, fake boobs, and my favorite...

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » August 14, 2009, 8:59 am

Oh yeh I wanted to add... have ya tried google earth? Man I spent countless hours lookin at some real shit holes accross the planet. most areas you can zoom close enough to get at least a feel for an area.

Swear to god no other place on earth knows what a sprinkler or a lawn mower is.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 14, 2009, 9:04 am

Well the 3 big ones, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are all awesome.
Montreal is a great party city. The bars, the women.. I had some pretty crazy weekends there when I was younger.
Lot's of history and culture as well.

I've lived in Toronto for most of my life and really have no desire to move elsewhere. It's friendly and ridiculously safe when compared to American cities a fraction of the size. You can walk the streets after dark and not have to worry about getting mugged or attacked.
There's some incredible restaurants and shopping, lots of tourist attractions.
The city is also very multicultural. There are multicultural commercial and residential pockets all around town like Little Italy, Chinatown (east and west), Forest Hill (Jew), India Bazaar, The Danforth (greek), oreatown, etc.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » August 14, 2009, 9:22 am

I`m at approx. 30 minutes from Ottawa, 1.5 hours from Montreal, 4-5 hours from Toronto or Quebec City, 7 hours from NYC or Boston.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » August 14, 2009, 9:55 am

Noysyrump wrote:Swear to god no other place on earth knows what a sprinkler or a lawn mower is.

That's a good thing, whether you realize it or not.

Also, I'd offer a somewhat different explanation (but also rambling a bit) than Aab for the reason many of the older urban centers are in such poor condition. One is the reliance in this country upon local taxes for so much (a relic grounded in our disdain for national government that grew from our origins as colonial rebels)**. Another is the sprawl that was encouraged by cheap oil, poorly thought through post-war infrastructure development and deliberate economic incentives to encourage businesses and family to spread out into the suburbs and exburbs. The tax structure that we all depend upon for funding streets and sanitation, libraries, building inspections, fire and police services, schools and the myriad of other social programs that ensure a city's vibrancy cannot survive widespread migrations of the citizenry. When the wealth moves out to the 'burbs, what's left behind are husks of cities that are unable to support themselves, populated by people who lack the means or ability (or, in some cases, inclination) to seek greener pastures. Now most people live out in the 'burbs in highly balkanized areas in class-divided enclaves incorporated into smaller cities so that the tax revenues generated don't have to help anyone but themselves. It benefits those individuals lucky enough to live there greatly (admittedly, I'm one of those) - the schools and other services in these areas are generally a couple orders of magnitude better than those in the poorer areas where the money is needed the most. Too many in this country lack any serious sense of social responsibility, and most don't even recognize the problems with sprawl or with the "me me me" obsession that's brought us to this point.

Finally, just to bring this back on topic somewhat, I'm not sure there's a whole lot in this country worth traveling to see, at least from an attraction perspective. There are some events that are probably worth traveling for, depending on what you're in to. Most of the really cool pre-colombian things worth seeing are in Mexico or central and South America. There are some nice museums in NYC, DC and so forth. The space center in Florida is pretty cool, and there's some nice scenery out west. If you happen to be in the neighborhood it's great, but there's nothing here I'd be willing to take a long trip to see.

**Yes, there are state and federal dollars that are contributed to poorer local governments, but the responsibility for the lion's share of the costs falls to the decimated, poor municipalities.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 14, 2009, 10:34 am

Xatrei wrote:...cheap oil, poorly thought through post-war infrastructure development and deliberate economic incentives to encourage businesses and family to spread out into the suburbs and exburbs...

You hit the root of the problem, the things I listed are almost side effects. In many ways everything else stems out from there starting in the late '40s. Some of it's rooted in the great depression as well.

I'd disagree that there's not much worth seeing, as contrasted to other parts of the world. It's just different. Most major metro areas have worthwhile museums, attractions, parks, etc... Some better, some worse obviously. There are great natural attractions nearly everywhere in the US, though you frequently have to dig\drive a bit to find them.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 14, 2009, 12:03 pm

Leonaerd wrote:However, the majority of Detroit is spooky, sometimes downright unbearable. There are places on 7 mile where I've driven through in broad daylight and wanted nothing more than to get the fuck out. Addicts roam aimlessly. Gangs with visible weapons haunt the corners. Gas stations are dangerous as fuck to whitey. In a lot of the bad places it's expected that you run red lights, for your safety. It's bizarre how much the landscape changes in an instant when driving north-south to / from the D.

Oh please, quote more urban legends. Every kid from a suburb of Detroit has heard the "run the red lights" story. Yeah there are some really depressing, crime-ridden areas of Detroit, but you haven't seen any gangs with visible weapons haunting the corners and I've stopped at gas stations throughout the city of Detroit without being in any (non-imagined) danger. Yes, it's a bit off-putting that all the cashiers are behind several inches of plexiglass, but you're acting like it's Fallujah or something.

Nick wrote:2. Same goes for Detroit. How come Detroits such a shithole?

While Xatrei hit it pretty squarely on the head, there were other factors in Detroit, specifically, that lead to it becoming "such a shithole". Namely the riots of 1967**. In the 1950s, Detroit was in the top 5 biggest cities in the US, and now it is #11, and losing people every census. It's also had quite a history of corrupt or inept leadership that hasn't helped much. I think it's getting better, though. Heck, they hardly even have any arsons anymore on Devil's Night!

One thing you have to realize is that Detroit is like shitty on one block and nice on the next. It's a weird dichotomy. Grosse Pointe (a Detroit suburb) is one of the most affluent neighborhoods in the country and is like 5 miles from these areas that Leonard practically got carjacked and killed in! You can literally see one block full of abandoned buildings with boarded-up windows and homeless people on the steps, and the next block houses a museum full of a billion dollars worth of art.

As far as culture goes, there's a lot more going on there than our illustrious Chili bar. This will probably sound like it's all coming out of the Wikipedia page, but it's all stuff that I have personal knowledge of or experience with...

The Detroit Institute of Arts is a pretty impressive art museum. According to wikipedia - " In 2003, the DIA ranked as the second largest municipally-owned museum in the United States with an art collection valued at more than one billion dollars." I remember checking out a really cool mural by Diego Rivera there that is pretty famous. (I'm not a huge fine art guy, though this chick I was dating at the time was an artist. The mural really wowed me though).
There are a lot of theaters in Detroit. While the Fillmore is great for seeing bands or comedians or whatever, there are some pretty famous theaters and opera houses. Every time I've seen someone perform at The Fox Theatre, I've heard remarks from the artist on how beautiful it is, and I just learned from that link that it's the second-largest theatre in the country, behind Radio City Music Hall. While I've never seen the DSO perform, I've heard they are pretty good.
If you're into cars, there are a lot of car events. The North American International Auto Show is held annually and is one of (if not the, I know it used to be) the largest auto shows in the world. The Woodward Dream Cruise is going on this weekend, and it "is the world’s largest one-day automotive event, drawing 1.5 million people and 40,000 classic cars each year from around the globe".
Musically, Detroit has a pretty rich legacy. It's the home of Motown and the birthplace of Techno music, as well as being home to a bunch of famous acts like Bob Seger, Ted Nugent, Iggy Pop and the Stooges, the MC5, the White Stripes, Kid Rock, Eminem...
There are a number of cool ethnic areas in Detroit, including Greektown, Corktown (Irish) and Poletown/Hamtramck.
Casinos! With three big casinos, I think Detroit is now the largest gambling hub between Atlantic City and Vegas.
Sports - Like Leo said, our professional baseball and football teams have new(ish) stadiums right next to each other. The Joe Louis Arena (where the Red Wings play) is not too far away, and I have heard that they are trying to get it approved to build a new Hockey Arena near Comerica Park and Ford Field.

There's probably more I'm forgetting... There's the Detroit Science Center, the Detroit Zoo... all kinds of smaller clubs and performance venues. And then there are the suburbs. It's pretty densely populated in about a 45 mile radius outside of Detroit.

I love Detroit, and hope that the small positive steps that are being made will help turn it around soon!

**That leads me to ask you a question, Nick. I'm sure you're aware of the LA riots in 1992, right? Were you aware of the Detroit riots, that were the biggest up until then? Is that common knowledge to people outside of this area?

Siji · Post by **Siji** » August 14, 2009, 12:33 pm

Nick is a terrorist, stop feeding him intel!

laneela · Post by **laneela** » August 14, 2009, 12:35 pm

Nick wrote:What's Miami like? Just a tourist hub? Or is it a big commercial centre? Now, I know I could google all this and I will, but I'm just interested in your own take on it.

Miami is an interesting place but everyone's mileage varies. Miami Beach is a tourist hub for sure, but there are also tons of locals that live there (the majority of them are South American and European immigrants though so at first glance, you'd think them tourists). It's one of the few places in the Miami metro area that a car isn't required to get around. On "the beach", there are a a handful of musems, a couple of theatres, a shit ton of clubs, bars and shops and it would seem that everyone and their mother has an eatery or two there. Downtown/Design District is where the majority of local artists are and my personal favorite restaurants, bars and galleries are there. Little Havana is also really cool (though apparently scary for people who might not feel comfortable in a third world country atmosphere). There's a local art/music festival there the last friday of every month and hanging out at Domino Park watching little old Cuban men play dominos (or joining in if you don't mind getting whooped) isn't a bad way to spend a few hours.

In the last few years, a lot of interesting festivals, art shows and exhibits have been popping up. Yearly, we have Art Basel (the original, of course being in Switzerland) that has exhibitions in different venues throughout Miami, the Winter Music Conference, Miami Spice, South Beach Comedy Festival, etc. Miami is no NY or Chicago, but it has a certain flavor that's (in my opinion) not duplicated anywhere else in the world. In comparison to NY or Chicago, it's commercial centre is fairly small. Miami is relatively young, having incorporated just over 100 years ago so it's history is pretty much "current events" for you. =P

All in all, I personally really like Miami half the year. I find myself wanting to move elsewhere every single summer, but that has nothing to do with the city and everything to do with the hideously hot, humid, disgusting weather we have from May - October. Should you decide to ever visit Miami, a word of warning: Miamians could stand to be a little friendlier (we held the top spot for rudest drivers/worst road rage for three years running - were unseated this year by NY, [fuckers]) and our service, because of this, is world renowned for being complete and utter shite. It's not you... It's us. We're a bunch of assholes.

Apparently, Miami's skyline ranks third behind NY and Chicago and it was 2008's America's Cleanest City!

edit: Fuerza Bruta (performance art show) was here for a couple of months this summer and if it ever goes anywhere close to you or if you're even in NY, I highly recommend checking it out. http://fuerzabruta.net/

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » August 14, 2009, 1:04 pm

My dealings with Detroit are much closer to Leonaerd's than Sylvus's. I have a picture on my iPhone of a 4-way stop in Detroit where there were stripped cars on blocks at all 4 stop signs. I had to drive around one to go through the 4-way. It was such an unusual sight, I drove on a couple of feet and got out to take better pictures. Then I noticed the 10+ strong gang of 20 something thungs shoot eachother a glance and start walking towards me. I got the fuck out of there. 10 minutes later and I'm in Rochester Hills. It's fucking weird.

I visit the Detroit Zoo every couple of years. Take a wrong turn there and you're in miles of urban ghetto. Crazy.

When my wife visits certian schools in Detroit, she leaves all her jewelry at home, even her wedding ring.

I can sense a real love of the city from Sylvus, and while can appreciate that, I wouldn't recommend anyone go to Detroit if they can help it. It's old, dirty, and feels unsafe IMO.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » August 14, 2009, 1:27 pm

When I was a kid I was a bar with my grandfather. He'd give me quarters to go play video games and such. I remember him talking to some other guys there about the Suburbs and such. One of the guys called it the "Great White Migration". I didn't understand it at the time. Different generation I guess.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 14, 2009, 1:49 pm

laneela wrote:... It's us. We're a bunch of assholes.

It's all the NYC and NJ folks, I think. Everybody else is great

They're the biggest assholes over in Pinellas too.

I have been cussed out a couple times while wearing a shirt with an INS logo on it while working down there. I was "No, not that INS, stop yelling at me, I can't fix your wife's green card". I stopped wearing company shirts in SE FL after that

I worked in N St. Louis (@ Kingshighway & I-70) years ago, got pulled over by a cop while out to lunch with some co-workers and asked if I was alright, did I know where I was.

We used to hear gunshots all the time, find slugs in the merchandise (pallets of beer cartons mostly) and on the roof\in the parking lot, had a driver get shot waiting for the gate to open, the fire department wouldn't respond except with a police escort.

laneela · Post by **laneela** » August 14, 2009, 3:04 pm

Aabidano wrote:
laneela wrote:... It's us. We're a bunch of assholes.
It's all the NYC and NJ folks, I think. Everybody else is great They're the biggest assholes over in Pinellas too.

I have been cussed out a couple times while wearing a shirt with an INS logo on it while working down there. I was "No, not that INS, stop yelling at me, I can't fix your wife's green card". I stopped wearing company shirts in SE FL after that
.

Ha! Imigra! Imigra! How much would one of your company shirts cost me? I need me one of those. =P

miir · Post by **miir** » August 14, 2009, 4:13 pm

People in Toronto are generally quite nice and polite.
For the most part, the roads and highways are very civilized.

When I was going through Montreal last summer, I was in the left (passing) lane to pass a few cars... doing 130 in a 80 and the dude behind me was freaking out flashing his lights, tailgating and blaring his horn. I got the middle finger when he blew by me.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 14, 2009, 4:31 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:I visit the Detroit Zoo every couple of years. Take a wrong turn there and you're in miles of urban ghetto. Crazy.

I'm just nitpicking now, but the Detroit Zoo is on the border between Royal Oak and Ferndale. Royal Oak is the place in the state of Michigan for recent college graduates to live, and Ferndale is the most gay-friendly (they have an openly gay mayor) area in Southeast Michigan. I think you took a heck of a wrong turn!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 17, 2009, 12:17 pm

Pretty cool thread. I'm about 20 miles SW of Manhattan. Parking stinks and there's some type of ethnic parade or bike/run race screwing up traffic every summer weekend so I wouldn't bother with a car.

I know this has morphed into a city discussion rather than a driving one so I'll chime in a little. First off, Vegas puts itself out there so if you are not interested in over the top garbage, it's not even in the top 20 imo. If you are going to a city for at least a week and it isn't a place you have to do massive amounts of research to get a good feel for the place (Chicago & NY), I'd go to San Francisco. My wife and I sometimes speak of places we would actually pick up what we have here and put it somewhere else and San Fran is up there. It's just a fantastic city and the weather kicks ass if you're not the 85+ degree type.

If you are the 85+ type, my brother keeps moving between Miami and NYC every few years. I stayed at his place a few times and I do like it there but it's completely different from any other US city. It can be opressively hot/humid. And you will look like an outsider because I've been there when it's 90 and muggy and guys are walking around with button-down shirts with pants like there's not a care in the world. A lot of the locals look so cool when it's hot, you'd think you're a different species. Also about looks, prepare to be humbled as that has to be the most attractive city in the country. If you ever want to feel like you look like shit, head to south beach.

From a smaller venue and knowing a little about you, I think you would love Savannah, GA. It's not really a city's city but just a really cool place you could spend 4 or 5 days at. Lots of pubs, the squares (basically parks built in the center of town) are relaxing to hang out at, the people are nice, the buildings look great and the food is great. From where I live, it's about a 16 hour drive. And you can also visit Charleston, SC which is another cool small city about 2 hours away.

NYC is great but I agree with someone above in that it's really not a good place to solo. I can't even imagine how an outsider approaches the city to be honest. If you go beyond Manhattan and throw in things you can do in Queens and Brooklyn, I would throw in the towel.