Refusing chemo for a minor

[Sueven]

Legit question.

I assume we're defining "left" and "right" as something like "freedom/tolerance" and "authoritarian/social control," in a pretty vague and nonspecific way, with an added bit of international humanitarianism and peacefulness.

Given a definition of that sort, I would say that the U.S. is to the left of China, Russia, the Middle East and most of Central Asia, as well as close or to the left of substantial parts of Southeast Asia. We're probably fairly close to India, maybe a little to the right. We're clearly to the right of most of Europe and Australia. Most of Africa isn't developed to the point where you could assign it a place on a coherent political spectrum. Latin America is hit or miss.

So the question is: Where is this vast majority of the world that's way to the left of us? Europe and Australia? Anywhere else? Are we just going to discount the billions of people in China, Russia, the Middle East, etc?

My honest opinion is that we're a center-right country on the world stage.

[Nick]

Legit question.

Totally fair question indeed. Legit answer incoming!

I assume we're defining "left" and "right" as something like "freedom/tolerance" and "authoritarian/social control," in a pretty vague and nonspecific way, with an added bit of international humanitarianism and peacefulness.

Well I guess so, since a definition of left and right is by default virtually impossible as it is. When I myself refer to these obviously broad terms, I mean it in the sense of humanitarianism and peacefulness. Of course, as you're well aware, these are very vague terms to describe a much more complex subject than this place is capable of, or interested in, so I guess, yeah, for the sake of argument, pretty much what you said.

Given a definition of that sort, I would say that the U.S. is to the left of China, Russia, the Middle East and most of Central Asia, as well as close or to the left of substantial parts of Southeast Asia.

Yeah, undoubtedly. Well, except for the mass murder that happened in Iraq. The cognitive dissonance in regards to this event is one the US really needs to start getting. It's hypocritical in the extreme.

Of course, when I say the US, obviously the US, like every country, is full of individuals. With individual beliefs. I know it's the done thing around here to assume I group every American into one homogenous entity, then again, that's done by everyone to some extent (lol leprechaun, limey, yank, spic, sand nigger, etc etc).

It's not like I'm not aware of individual difference of opinion. But going by the terrified ultra patriotic reaction of some folk here you'd never guess it.

We're probably fairly close to India, maybe a little to the right.

I don't think India is really in a state comparable to the USA. Except perhaps in size. I'm not sure where this particular thought is coming from (I'm not belittling you by wondering that, I'm just saying.)

We're clearly to the right of most of Europe and Australia.

I'm not sure, Australia is a strange place, some of the reforms of that Bush loving yes man Howard are really disgusting. Not to mention the cultural battle being waged there. I guess once you start comparing nations on any real level it is indeed a much less black and white issue than a throwaway VV post tends to consider.

Most of Africa isn't developed to the point where you could assign it a place on a coherent political spectrum. Latin America is hit or miss.

Latin America. The history there is pretty interesting no?

So the question is: Where is this vast majority of the world that's way to the left of us? Europe and Australia? Anywhere else? Are we just going to discount the billions of people in China, Russia, the Middle East, etc?

Well here is where you seem to miss the point of my post. Numbers of people very rarely tend to prove very much. If 100 million Chinese people in 1950 thought that absolute obedience to the grand emporer was the best ethical ideology and 1 person said "no I think people should have individual freedom and democracy should be implemented, does number outweight "rightness"? Objectivity, rationality and logic go out the window simply for the sake of numerical expediency?

I guess I use the "well anyone with a brain knows that Guantanamo Bay is a fucking disgrace" and that the "USA stands alone in its use of the place" and I lower myself to the level of nitwit found around here, usually more out of anger at stupidity than any real ethical global political or humanitarian aesthetic.

My honest opinion is that we're a center-right country on the world stage.

In the Liberal countries (the ones that value freedom, individuality, compassion for their fellow man) - very much so. Maybe Obama will make some changes to that sad direction, but for 5 months of work he seems to have said an awful lot and done very little.

A seperate note to Fairweather - your statement, like a fine wine, increases in quality with age. If the quality was "idiocy".

[Sueven]

I absolutely agree with you in arguing that numbers alone rarely matter much.

I think you often advocate a position by saying "everyone in the world disagrees with you, America is alone on this, therefore America (and you) are wrong." This is an appeal to authority that you use to excuse yourself from having to present an actual substantive argument as to why your side is right. You simply take it as obvious that your side is correct, and you use the fact that the whole world except for America agrees with you as your proof.

The problem is twofold:

First, as you just pointed out, who cares what the majority thinks? We should care about which position is correct, not which position is most popular.

Second, as I'm attempting to point out, you're wrong on an empirical basis. Most of the world does not agree with you. In fact, billions of people-- Chinese, Indians, Russians, many Arabs, Persians and Turks, some Australians, some Latin Americans, some Africans, even some Europeans-- disagree with you. Billions more, including representatives from each of those places, don't have remotely close to the information to have an opinion on whatever the issue of the day is.

Your claim seems to be, more accurately, that "the majority of the educated, thoughtful, cosmopolitan, humanitarian people in the world disagree with you," or, put more simply, "the majority of liberal western Europeans disagree with you." Which is probably true, but it's a claim that carries far less weight than the initial one.

I bring this up because you said "for the record, accurate and contextually, the USA is not "towards the center" on most issues. It veers heavily to the right. Go read a book." This statement strikes me as both irrelevant and incorrect factually. You have strong positions that I think are often correct, and they deserve strong substantive arguments on their behalf.

[Nick]

Fair points I suppose in some parts, then again, I pretty much have prefixed these things over the years with "anyone with a brain can see.."

Your claim seems to be, more accurately, that "the majority of the educated, thoughtful, cosmopolitan, humanitarian people in the world disagree with you," or, put more simply, "the majority of liberal western Europeans disagree with you." Which is probably true, but it's a claim that carries far less weight than the initial one.

On the contrary I would argue that it carries a hell of a lot more weight, unless we are considering logic and rationality to be irrelevant "trendy ideals of the intellectual liberal elite" that the Limbaugh crew cringingly spew on a regular basis. That dumb way of thinking has become so ingrained in American (and to an increasing degree British) political media coverage that it has all the actually intelligent people flapping and lolling about trying to find some middle ground between loud mouthed pro war gun nut lunatics who support outrageous murder, total disregard for the geneva convention, reactionary decreasing of civil liberties, the whole stupid idea of a "War on Terror" in the first place, violent occupation that achieved nothing, refusal to acknowledge blame etc etc etc with some more rational, meeker, quieter, therapyesque "oh well thats all clearly nonsense but I respect your right to say it.

Forgive me for fighting fire with fire when the alternative is a real life hannity and colmes on a national level

The American left has become so fucking terrified to defend basic logic it's had little choice but to crowd behind big strong sexy Barack. Who effectively manages to say in the most polite terms, "yes right wing that's lovely, now shut the fuck up and I'll give you a little bit of power if you're good."

I wish he went further.

Ultimately, this is all very simplified and deserves much more discussion, which I doubt we'd get here. I reckon most people on VV that have "some brains about them" are already aware, and have been for a long time, that my views are not as simple as "hurr the whole world thinks america is idiots" - although I'm having a hard time finding a nation that so many people are so openly hostile about (at least in Europe). And hey, undeniably at least half of America repeatedly in the last decade has proven itself to be full of brain dead idiots, and that's really not hyperbole. The only differences are that the US is richer and more powerful in a global sense, especially in militaristic terms (and is this a good thing?), so its more noticeable, because no other Western country, is running around unilaterally causing millions of deaths whilst trying to claim itself as a peaceful nation. (Although there are no shortage of lapdog governments willing to bend over and take one for Uncle Sam, (Hi Britain).