Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

This particular ruling was in her court and is being escalated to the Supreme Court. Be cautioned that it involves gun rights in the particular case, but has overwhelmingly larger connotations.
The chief concern is her position in the 2009 Maloney v. Cuomo case, in which the court examined a claim by a New York attorney that a New York law that prohibited possession of nunchucks violated his Second Amendment rights. The Appeals Court affirmed the lower court's decision that the Second Amendment does not apply to the states.

The ruling explained that it was "settled law" that the Second Amendment applies only to limitations the federal government might seek on individual gun rights.

Despite last year's landmark Supreme Court ruling in the District of Columbia v. Heller, in which the court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, the Maloney ruling determined that case "does not invalidate this longstanding principle" that states are not covered by the Second Amendment. (Another appeals court since the Heller case reached the opposite conclusion.)
Now if she and her pals have decided that the Constitution can be over-ruled by state law, then what does that open the door for? Can we have the First over-ruled by a state law? Isn't this shit covered specifically by the 10th Amendment? Couple of things that popped up that surprised me is that the NRA has made the decision to not push against her nomination...and that 13 Dem senators are refusing to back her.
Klukowski questioned the brevity of the Maloney decision, which spanned only a few pages, more than the actual conclusion. He said it glossed over decades of relevant legal precedent.

"The idea that you would be the first circuit court to take up this profound, constitutional question after the Supreme Court's landmark ruling and only give it one paragraph is stunning," he said.
I have a feeling she is not going to get in and this is going to be a blow to the GOP. If it was a white guy, he would have had no chance in hell and would be getting abused right now on several fronts.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Oh, she's going to get in.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Spang »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I have a feeling she is not going to get in and this is going to be a blow to the GOP.
She'll get in quite easily. She's a great pick.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

So you have no problems with her having absolutely no desire to uphold the Constitution and allowing States to overwrite it?
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Funkmasterr »

The last thing we need is another judge that has been misguided to believe their job is to legislate from the bench.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:So you have no problems with her having absolutely no desire to uphold the Constitution and allowing States to overwrite it?
Do you have a source to that bullshit you quoted?
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

From Wiki:
Second Amendment rights
Sotomayor was part of the three-judge Second Circuit panel that affirmed the district court's ruling in Maloney v. Cuomo.[61] Maloney was arrested for possession of nunchakus, which are illegal in New York; Maloney argued that this law violated his Second Amendment right to bear arms. The Second Circuit's per curiam opinion noted that the Supreme Court has not, so far, ever held that the Second Amendment is binding against state governments. On the contrary, in Presser v. Illinois, a Supreme Court case from 1886, the Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment "is a limitation only upon the power of Congress and the national government, and not upon that of the state." With respect to the Presser v. Illinois precedent, the panel stated that the recent Supreme Court case of District of Columbia v. Heller (which struck down the district's gun ban as unconstitutional) "does not invalidate this longstanding principle." Thus, the Second Circuit panel upheld the lower court's decision dismissing Maloney's complaint.[62]
Original was from foxnews I think. It was linked to another site and I am not sure where I was.



http://themunz.blogspot.com/2009/05/cns ... tates.html
(CNSNews.com) – Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor ruled in January 2009 that states do not have to obey the Second Amendment’s commandment that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

In Maloney v. Cuomo, Sotomayor signed an opinion of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit that said the Second Amendment does not protect individuals from having their right to keep and bear arms restricted by state governments.

The opinion said that the Second Amendment only restricted the federal government from infringing on an individual's right to keep and bear arms. As justification for this position, the opinion cited the 1886 Supreme Court case of Presser v. Illinois.

“It is settled law, however, that the Second Amendment applies only to limitations the federal government seeks to impose on this right,” said the opinion. Quoting Presser, the court said, “it is a limitation only upon the power of Congress and the national government, and not upon that of the state.”

The Maloney v. Cuomo case involved James Maloney, who had been arrested for possessing a pair of nunchuks. New York law prohibits the possession of nunchuks, even though they are often used in martial arts training and demonstrations.

The meaning of the Second Amendment has rarely been addressed by the Supreme Court. But in the 2008 case of Heller v. District of Columbia, the high court said that the right to keep and bear arms was a natural right of all Americans and that the Second Amendment guaranteed that right to everyone.

The Second Amendment, the Supreme Court ruled, “guarantee(s) the right of the individual to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation. The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it ‘shall not be infringed.’”

“There seems to us no doubt,” the Supreme Court said, “that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms.”
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2009/05/26/the ... r-sampler/
The now infamous Duke speech: For starters, there’s the speech she gave at Duke back in 2005. Click here for the YouTube video. The controversial quote: “Court of appeals is where policy is made. And I know this is on tape and I shouldn’t say that because we don’t make law . . . I know. . . I’m not promoting it, I’m not advocating it . . . ”

In that same speech, Sotomayor explained the difference between judging at the trial court level and judging at the appeals court level: “When you’re on the district court, you’re looking to do justice in the individual case, so you’re looking much more to the facts of the case than you are to the application of the law because the application of the law is not precedential, so the facts control. On the court of appeals, you’re looking to how the law is developing so that it will then be applied to a broad class of cases. So you’re always thinking about the ramifications of this ruling on the next step of the development of the law.”

Workplace Discrimination; Ricci v. DeStefano: In Ricci v. DeStefano, a group of white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., challenged the city’s decision not to use an employment test for use in promotions when the use of the test results would have had a disproportionate benefit to white applicants over minority applicants. Sotomayor was part of a three-judge panel that upheld the city’s determination, calling it “thorough, thoughtful and well-reasoned.”

In January 2009, the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case. A decision is due next month.

The First Amendment; Pappas v. Giuliani: One of Judge Sotomayor’s more controversial First Amendment cases came down in 2002. The case, Pappas v. Giuliani (click here for the opinion), involved whether an NYPD employee was properly terminated from his job after mailing bigoted and racist material and comments in response to requests for charitable contributions.

On appeal, two judges on the three- judge panel ruled that Pappas could be rightfully terminated. In dissent, Judge Sotomayor found fault with the majority’s decision to award summary judgment to the police department. While she found the speech “offensive, hateful and insulting,” she ultimately found the NYPD’s concerns over race relations “so removed from the effective functioning of the public employer that they cannot prevail over the free speech rights of the public employee.”

The Second Amendment; Maloney v. Cuomo: A New York attorney challenged a state law prohibiting the possession of a so-called chuka stick, a weapon used in martial arts, claiming the ruling violated his Second Amendment right to bear arms.

The district court denied the attorney’s claim, ruling that the Second Amendment doesn’t apply to the states. On appeal, the three-judge panel, which included Judge Sotomayor, agreed with the lower court, ruling that an 1886 Supreme Court ruling called Presser v. Illinois dictated the outcome. It is “settled law . . . that the Second Amendment applies only to limitations the federal government seeks to impose” on one’s right to bear arms.

Maloney’s lawyers have said they might seek Supreme Court review on the matter.


Environmental Law; Riverkeeper v. EPA: (This recap comes courtesy of our friends at the WSJ’s Environmental Capital blog). In 2007, Sotomayor sided with the fishes and against power companies and the Environmental Protection Agency.

In Riverkeeper vs. EPA, she argued that the EPA can’t weigh costs and benefits in deciding what the “best technology” is for protecting fish that get sucked into power plants. In a nutshell, she ruled, there’s no point in tallying up the marginal costs of extra environmental protections when Congress has already decided they’re worth it.

From her 2007 decision:

The Agency is therefore precluded from undertaking such cost-benefit analysis because the [best technology available] standard represents Congress’s conclusion that the costs imposed on industry in adopting the best cooling water intake structure technology available (i.e., the best-performing technology that can be reasonably borne by the industry) are worth the benefits in reducing adverse environmental impacts.
In April, the Supreme Court overturned that decision in a 6-3 ruling; justice David Souter, who Ms. Sotomayor would replace, was one of the dissenters.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Let me mention that the case they used for their decision was from 1886 and the defendant was trying to use the 2nd Amendment as an exucse to drill as an unlicensed private militia. Further, this decision came AFTER the Heller Supreme Court decision which they apparently ignored.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:From Wiki:

Original was from foxnews I think. It was linked to another site and I am not sure where I was.
That's one thing. What other horrible things has she done? Keep in mind, she's been doing this for at least 10 years.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Fairweather Pure »

I think she has the experiance and expertise to be a Supreme Court Justice. Her job is to interpret law and there will always be controversial decisions made one way or the other. The fact that she does not always rule the way you, or others would've liked her to does not make her wrong. She still has to opporate within the confines of our justice system.

I don't like the Republican strategy vs Obama. It consists of railing against any and everything he does, no matter what. This is just the latest in a list of examples. He could've announced Jesus as his candidate and there would already be a smear campaign mounting against him. I am not nervous about Sotomayor's appointment in any way, even though Fox news and Drudge Report have been trying to drill it into my head that it's the beginning of the end every single day since the announcment. This is not willfull ignorance. I just look at what they are presenting against her and do not feel it is compelling evidence that she is unfit for the Supreme Court.

She will do just fine.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Spang wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:From Wiki:

Original was from foxnews I think. It was linked to another site and I am not sure where I was.
That's one thing. What other horrible things has she done? Keep in mind, she's been doing this for at least 10 years.

That "one thing" is fairly large. I could really care less about all the racism crap being bandied about. The entire premise of Obama's campaign was change. If the only change is just the left wing version of the same old crap, then we are going to be no better off than we were before.

This is not me railing against her on a personal level. Thirteen Dems in the Senate (who will have to confirm her) are apparently ready to vote against her based on her views and past comments. I am definitely not thrilled at the prospect of seeing someone sitting on the Supreme Court of the US and being charged with upholding the Constitution that is voting for her personal viewpoints rather than what the document says.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:That "one thing" is fairly large. I could really care less about all the racism crap being bandied about. The entire premise of Obama's campaign was change. If the only change is just the left wing version of the same old crap, then we are going to be no better off than we were before.

This is not me railing against her on a personal level. Thirteen Dems in the Senate (who will have to confirm her) are apparently ready to vote against her based on her views and past comments. I am definitely not thrilled at the prospect of seeing someone sitting on the Supreme Court of the US and being charged with upholding the Constitution that is voting for her personal viewpoints rather than what the document says.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Boogahz »

Fairweather Pure wrote: I don't like the Republican strategy vs Obama. It consists of railing against any and everything he does, no matter what. This is just the latest in a list of examples. He could've announced Jesus as his candidate and there would already be a smear campaign mounting against him. I am not nervous about Sotomayor's appointment in any way, even though Fox news and Drudge Report have been trying to drill it into my head that it's the beginning of the end every single day since the announcment. This is not willfull ignorance. I just look at what they are presenting against her and do not feel it is compelling evidence that she is unfit for the Supreme Court.
This is all normal when appointments like this come up.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Boogahz wrote:This is all normal when appointments like this come up.
It doesn't mean it's right or that I have to like it.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Spang wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:That "one thing" is fairly large. I could really care less about all the racism crap being bandied about. The entire premise of Obama's campaign was change. If the only change is just the left wing version of the same old crap, then we are going to be no better off than we were before.

This is not me railing against her on a personal level. Thirteen Dems in the Senate (who will have to confirm her) are apparently ready to vote against her based on her views and past comments. I am definitely not thrilled at the prospect of seeing someone sitting on the Supreme Court of the US and being charged with upholding the Constitution that is voting for her personal viewpoints rather than what the document says.
Don't worry, you're not going to lose your guns.
It has jack and shit to do with guns. Once they rule at the SCOTUS level that the Constitution can be over-ruled by states or localities, then ANY Amendment could be over-ruled using said case as a basis. Do you even read or do you only pick and choose the parts of posts you want to respond to? You would make one hell of a reporter for someone like the NY Times.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Once they rule at the SCOTUS level that the Constitution can be over-ruled by states or localities, then ANY Amendment could be over-ruled using said case as a basis.
Don't worry, that's not going to happen either.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Funkmasterr »

My comment has nothing to do with her or Obama appointing her. It's been an issue in my mind for longer than that, Obama's outlooks just lead me to believe that this will only get worse.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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I heard that 60% of her cases that were appealed to a higher court were over-turned...
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Spang wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Once they rule at the SCOTUS level that the Constitution can be over-ruled by states or localities, then ANY Amendment could be over-ruled using said case as a basis.
Don't worry, that's not going to happen either.
except she ALREADY has ruled this way. It is on record. And when her own cases hit her on the SCOTUS, is she going to vote to over-rule herself? She has a few cases that she has ruled on that are heading to the Supreme Court.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:except she ALREADY has ruled this way. It is on record.
Yes, she has, once. What else has she done?
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Keverian FireCry »

except she ALREADY has ruled this way. It is on record. And when her own cases hit her on the SCOTUS, is she going to vote to over-rule herself? She has a few cases that she has ruled on that are heading to the Supreme Court.
And her one vote will be agreed upon by all of the other Supreme Court Justices and you'll lose your nunchucks. OMG.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Fairweather Pure wrote:We're closer than I thought we would be Kilmoll. The big question is why are you such an asshole all the time when it comes to politics?
You asked....and this thread is a prime example.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Fairweather Pure wrote:I think she has the experiance and expertise to be a Supreme Court Justice.
agreed with experience and knowledge. My questions right now lie with her willingness to apply them as it effects the Const as opposed to her personal opinions.
Her job is to interpret law and there will always be controversial decisions made one way or the other. The fact that she does not always rule the way you, or others would've liked her to does not make her wrong. She still has to opporate within the confines of our justice system.
And again, she picked an 1886 case instead of using the case the SCOTUS just put out that directly impacts her decision from last year. Incidentally, Heller is the first time in US history that the 2nd Amendment was ruled on and clarified. They completely ignored that ruling and if this were to have gone to the SCOTUS last year, it would have been overturned.
I don't like the Republican strategy vs Obama. It consists of railing against any and everything he does, no matter what.
I do not agree with it as a strategy either. It is asinine and counter productive.
This is just the latest in a list of examples. He could've announced Jesus as his candidate and there would already be a smear campaign mounting against him.
This is the way it goes with every single candidate for each side and always will be.
I am not nervous about Sotomayor's appointment in any way, even though Fox news and Drudge Report have been trying to drill it into my head that it's the beginning of the end every single day since the announcment. This is not willfull ignorance. I just look at what they are presenting against her and do not feel it is compelling evidence that she is unfit for the Supreme Court.
I do not care about much of her past votes. I do care about someone that would put personal opinion over the paper they are supposed to be using as the basis for all arguments.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Tyek »

Fairweather Pure wrote:I don't like the Republican strategy vs Obama. It consists of railing against any and everything he does, no matter what. This is just the latest in a list of examples. He could've announced Jesus as his candidate and there would already be a smear campaign mounting against him. I am not nervous about Sotomayor's appointment in any way, even though Fox news and Drudge Report have been trying to drill it into my head that it's the beginning of the end every single day since the announcment. This is not willfull ignorance. I just look at what they are presenting against her and do not feel it is compelling evidence that she is unfit for the Supreme Court.

She will do just fine.
Fairweather, this is a political strategy that BOTH parties use all the time. At times it is perfectly understandable, but partisan politics are killing the country, the parties argue over almost everything and it is unnecessary in a lot of cases. This is a big appointment, so I guess I understand it in this scenario, but not on every bill, comment etc...
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Sueven »

Initially, none of the rights in the Constitution were applicable to the states. The constitution is about federal, not state, government. A doctrine called "incorporation" arose in order to make those rights applicable to the states. I forget exactly what the rationale is; I think it basically employs the 14th amendment to make various rights in the bill of rights applicable as to the states.

At various times in history, most of the rights contained in the bill of rights have been incorporated, meaning that state government action is curtailed by the Constitution in the same way that federal government action is. This has happened in an independent Supreme Court decision for every right that has been incorporated. Most, but not all, explicit constitutional rights have been incorporated. Evidently, the second amendment is not among those rights.

The opinion (is it even Sotomayor's, or was she simply on the panel of judges that issued it?) is very brief and states a simple legal fact: The Second Amendment is not incorporated against the states. The most recent relevant precedent is the 1886 case mentioned, which says that it's not incorporated. It is likely that the Court of Appeals was not the appropriate legal forum to rule on whether the right should be so incorporated, especially since there is direct Supreme Court precedent on point (Supreme Court decisions are binding on Courts of Appeal).

In the aftermath of Heller, it's likely that the second amendment will be incorporated at some point, as I believe it should be. But this will take the form of a Supreme Court decision. For a Court of Appeals to ignore clear and longstanding Supreme Court precedent in order to incorporate a previously unincorporated right would be the most clear sort of "judicial activism" imaginable.

Without reading the opinion and knowing only its legal posture, I'm quite confident that it contains no substantive second amendment analysis whatsoever.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Xatrei »

Fash wrote:I heard that 60% of her cases that were appealed to a higher court were over-turned...
Something like 70% of all rulings appealed to the SCOTUS are overturned. Of her thousands of decisions, a tiny number were appealed to SCOTUS. Of those, the SCOTUS chose to review a handful of them, finding no reason to involve themselves in well over 99% of her findings. Of those they reviewed, the reversal rate of decisions in which she was involved is below average. What's your point?

An example of how irrelevant this big, bad 60% number is (or at least should be) is that Justice Alito had a 100% reversal rate for his decisions that were reviewed by SCOTUS.
Last edited by Xatrei on May 29, 2009, 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Spang »

Xatrei wrote:
Fash wrote:I heard that 60% of her cases that were appealed to a higher court were over-turned...
Something like 70% of all rulings appealed to the SCOTUS are overturned. Of her thousands of decisions, tiny number were appealed to SCOTUS. Of those, the SCOTUS chose to review a handful of them, finding no reason to involve themselves in well over 99% of her findings. Of those they reviewed, the reversal rate of decisions in which she was involved is below average. What's your point?
Also, this.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Xatrei »

Spang wrote:
Xatrei wrote:
Fash wrote:I heard that 60% of her cases that were appealed to a higher court were over-turned...
Something like 70% of all rulings appealed to the SCOTUS are overturned. Of her thousands of decisions, tiny number were appealed to SCOTUS. Of those, the SCOTUS chose to review a handful of them, finding no reason to involve themselves in well over 99% of her findings. Of those they reviewed, the reversal rate of decisions in which she was involved is below average. What's your point?
Also, this.
hah - I was editing my post to refer to Alito's record when you posted this.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by miir »

The inane shit that Kilmoll get OUTRAGED about is fucking comical.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Forthe »

Sueven wrote:Initially, none of the rights in the Constitution were applicable to the states. The constitution is about federal, not state, government. A doctrine called "incorporation" arose in order to make those rights applicable to the states. I forget exactly what the rationale is; I think it basically employs the 14th amendment to make various rights in the bill of rights applicable as to the states.

At various times in history, most of the rights contained in the bill of rights have been incorporated, meaning that state government action is curtailed by the Constitution in the same way that federal government action is. This has happened in an independent Supreme Court decision for every right that has been incorporated. Most, but not all, explicit constitutional rights have been incorporated. Evidently, the second amendment is not among those rights.

The opinion (is it even Sotomayor's, or was she simply on the panel of judges that issued it?) is very brief and states a simple legal fact: The Second Amendment is not incorporated against the states. The most recent relevant precedent is the 1886 case mentioned, which says that it's not incorporated. It is likely that the Court of Appeals was not the appropriate legal forum to rule on whether the right should be so incorporated, especially since there is direct Supreme Court precedent on point (Supreme Court decisions are binding on Courts of Appeal).

In the aftermath of Heller, it's likely that the second amendment will be incorporated at some point, as I believe it should be. But this will take the form of a Supreme Court decision. For a Court of Appeals to ignore clear and longstanding Supreme Court precedent in order to incorporate a previously unincorporated right would be the most clear sort of "judicial activism" imaginable.

Without reading the opinion and knowing only its legal posture, I'm quite confident that it contains no substantive second amendment analysis whatsoever.
Bingo. As DC isn't a state how could the 2nd district court use last years ruling to overrule the 1886 precedent? This seems to me to be the opposite of "legislating from the bench". Perhaps some approve "legislating from the bench" when the ruling is to their liking?
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Heller affirmed the right of every citizen...in state or district....to own a weapon that was not otherwise prohibited. That would preclude a state from passing its own law as it encompasses every citizen in the US.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by archeiron »

Tyek wrote:
Fairweather Pure wrote:I don't like the Republican strategy vs Obama. It consists of railing against any and everything he does, no matter what. This is just the latest in a list of examples. He could've announced Jesus as his candidate and there would already be a smear campaign mounting against him. I am not nervous about Sotomayor's appointment in any way, even though Fox news and Drudge Report have been trying to drill it into my head that it's the beginning of the end every single day since the announcment. This is not willfull ignorance. I just look at what they are presenting against her and do not feel it is compelling evidence that she is unfit for the Supreme Court.

She will do just fine.
Fairweather, this is a political strategy that BOTH parties use all the time. At times it is perfectly understandable, but partisan politics are killing the country, the parties argue over almost everything and it is unnecessary in a lot of cases. This is a big appointment, so I guess I understand it in this scenario, but not on every bill, comment etc...
Image

Funny you say that. I chuckled a fair bit back in April when I saw this Gallup result. Basically, when Bernanke was "Bush's guy" the Republicans loved him and Democrats hated him. Same guy two months later is sponsored to stay on by Obama, so the approval ratings complete reverse themselves.

p.s. hi, VV. Long time, no see.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Forthe »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Heller affirmed the right of every citizen...in state or district....to own a weapon that was not otherwise prohibited. That would preclude a state from passing its own law as it encompasses every citizen in the US.
No it didn't, see Suev's post. The opinions even state this wasn't a deep historical ruling. It did 2 things:
1) Struct down the DC law
2) Affirmed the 2nd ammendment as an individual right

Assuming this 2nd District case is appealed to the SC I would assume they would overrule the previous SC precedent. Until they do so lower courts must recognize that precedent.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Aslanna »

miir wrote:The inane shit that Kilmoll get OUTRAGED about is fucking comical.
What's even more comical is where was the OUTRAGE from Kilmoll (and the other right-wing nutjobs here) when Bush and his cronies were trampling all over the Constitution?
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Sueven wrote:Initially, none of the rights in the Constitution were applicable to the states. The constitution is about federal, not state, government. A doctrine called "incorporation" arose in order to make those rights applicable to the states. I forget exactly what the rationale is; I think it basically employs the 14th amendment to make various rights in the bill of rights applicable as to the states.

At various times in history, most of the rights contained in the bill of rights have been incorporated, meaning that state government action is curtailed by the Constitution in the same way that federal government action is. This has happened in an independent Supreme Court decision for every right that has been incorporated. Most, but not all, explicit constitutional rights have been incorporated. Evidently, the second amendment is not among those rights.

The opinion (is it even Sotomayor's, or was she simply on the panel of judges that issued it?) is very brief and states a simple legal fact: The Second Amendment is not incorporated against the states. The most recent relevant precedent is the 1886 case mentioned, which says that it's not incorporated. It is likely that the Court of Appeals was not the appropriate legal forum to rule on whether the right should be so incorporated, especially since there is direct Supreme Court precedent on point (Supreme Court decisions are binding on Courts of Appeal).

In the aftermath of Heller, it's likely that the second amendment will be incorporated at some point, as I believe it should be. But this will take the form of a Supreme Court decision. For a Court of Appeals to ignore clear and longstanding Supreme Court precedent in order to incorporate a previously unincorporated right would be the most clear sort of "judicial activism" imaginable.

Without reading the opinion and knowing only its legal posture, I'm quite confident that it contains no substantive second amendment analysis whatsoever.

Some clarifcations have been previously issued as the 2nd has not been specifically brought before SCOTUS.
On April 20, 2009, under Nordyke v. King the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit held that the Second Amendment was incorporated.[20] This is a binding authority over Alaska, Arizona, California, Hawaii, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington, and the U.S. territories of Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands, but is only a persuasive authority over the remainder of the United States.
So there have been previous cases in the appeals courts which they ignored.

Nordyke v. King, ___ F.3d ___ (9th Cir. 2009), was a decision of the United States Court of Appealsfor the Ninth Circuit in which a ban of firearms on all public property was ruled constitutional. Additionally, the court ruled the Second Amendment was incorporated against the states.
The Circuit Court ruled that the Second Amendment was incorporated through the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause and applies against the states and local governments.[3] In coming to that conclusion, the court found the right to keep and bear arms is "deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition", a key factor under Duncan v. Louisiana for incorporation.[4]
There have been no SCOTUS rulings on the issues since 1875.
The court has ruled that the second amendment codifies a pre-existing individual right to possess and carry firearms, which is not in any manner dependent on the Constitution for its existence,[16] and some commentators suggest that incorporation is likely,[17] or that incorporation can hardly be escaped if the inferior courts take the Supreme Court's incorporation jurisprudence seriously as law—as they are required to do.[18]
Obviously this was ignored.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Forthe »

A Chicago-based federal appeals court--in an opinion by a renowned conservative jurist--has backed Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor's recent ruling that the Constitution's right to bear arms does not limit action by state or local governments.

Some conservatives and gun rights advocates had pointed to Sotomayor's January decision in Maloney v. Cuomo as evidence that she holds a narrow view of the Second Amendment and may harbor a hostility to gun rights.

However, 7th Circuit Judge Frank Easterbook wrote today for a three-judge panel which specifically concurred with Sotomayor's ruling and her assertion that a Supreme Court case from 1886 is still good law--leaving the Second Amendment applicable only to the federal government. The 7th Circuit case was argued just last week, so the possibility of a deliberate homage to the potential Supreme Court justice cannot be ruled out.

"We agree with Maloney," Easterbrook wrote. "The Justices have directed trial and appellate judges to implement the Supreme Court's holdings even if the reasoning in later opinions has undermined their rationale... If a court of appeals may strike off on its own, this not only undermines the uniformity of nationa law but may also compel the Justices to grant certiorari [review] before they think the question ripe for decision."
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Sueven »

Just to add to what Forthe said:

Richard Posner signed on to Easterbrook's opinion. Easterbrook is a very highly respected and influential conservative jurist. Richard Posner is probably the top conservative jurist in the country not named "Scalia," and he may be at the top even if you include Scalia.

And to respond briefly to Kilmoll's points:

Rulings from one circuit court are not binding on other circuit courts. They may, at the discretion of the circuit court hearing a case, be considered as persuasive argument, but they have no precedential value. Supreme Court decisions, on the other hand, are binding and do have precedential value. It is theoretically possible that the 2nd Circuit could have decided to launch into an unprompted substantive analysis of the level of coherence between the Supreme Court's incorporation doctrine and the fact that the Second Amendment has not yet been incorporated, but this would have been quite a bold step. The modest, humble approach, in keeping with the traditional conservative view about the role of a judge, would be to defer to Supreme Court precedent, and that's what was done. The fact that Easterbrook and Posner have provided legal backing on this demonstrates clearly that this decision is well within the legal mainstream.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Siji »

I'd like to go out drinking with Kilmoll and get him shit faced drunk just so I could listen to him go off on everyone and everything. It would have to be like going out drinking with Ted Nugent. Good times. :)
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Funkmasterr »

Siji wrote:I'd like to go out drinking with Kilmoll and get him shit faced drunk just so I could listen to him go off on everyone and everything. It would have to be like going out drinking with Ted Nugent. Good times. :)
Would be hilarious until you stumbled on me and I spit on you and pulled out my gun.

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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

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Funkmasterr wrote:
Siji wrote:I'd like to go out drinking with Kilmoll and get him shit faced drunk just so I could listen to him go off on everyone and everything. It would have to be like going out drinking with Ted Nugent. Good times. :)
Would be hilarious until you stumbled on me and I spit on you and pulled out my gun.

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Who would have thought Funk could be so comically self satirising. Good job :)
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Xatrei »

EDIT: Curse you, tricky, sneaky Miir!!
Miir wrote:*snip* - Quote redacted in deference to Miir who deleted his post while I responded to it - Xat.
Of the current Supremes, the number of days between their nomination announcement and the beginning of their confirmation hearings:

Alito: 70
Breyer: 60
Ginsberg: 36
Kennedy: 15
Roberts: 55 **
Scalia: 42
Souter: 50
Stevens: 7
Thomas: 71

** His hearings may have begun earlier if his nomination as an Associate Justice hadn't been withdrawn so that he could be nominated to the Chief Justice position vacated by Renquist's death. A date had not yet been set at the time of the change.

If her hearings begin on 13 July, 48 days will have elapsed between her announcement and the start of her hearings. Even if you allow for the ridiculously short span for Justice Stevens, Sotomayor's time to confirmation isn't even remotely extraordinary. The mock outrage expressed by the Obstructionist Party over this is just stupid posturing for the benefit of their base who can't be bothered to care about actual facts when there's a secret Muslim and Al Quaeda sympathizer running the country. It's yet another example of why voters are abandoning them in droves.
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by miir »

I decided I really just didn't care enough to point out the idocy in McConnell's 'outrage'
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Xatrei »

She was just confirmed by the Senate 68-31, and will be sworn in Saturday.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32312026/ns ... ite_house/
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Re: Sotomayor's troubling stance on Constitution

Post by Spang »

Nice!

Justice Sonya Sotomayor has such a nice ring to it. 8)
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