Eek!

Zygar_ Cthulhukin · Post by **Zygar_ Cthulhukin** » January 22, 2003, 9:23 am

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-981449.html?tag=fd_top

Masekle · Post by **Masekle** » January 22, 2003, 9:34 am

Bah!, who cares? If you dont have enough music to listen to over the course of several lifetimes downloaded by now, Where, may I ask, have you been??

Besides when Kazaa goes down another will pop up. Napster.. then AGS, now Kazaa. It will never end.

Been so long since I paid for a CD I wouldnt know where to start.

IMO what the music industry is inadvertantly doing, is making a way for the government to ultimatly control, who, what, when, where, why and sometimes how, the internet is used.

Future login screen...... Please enter your Social Security number now, to access the Worldwide Net

Garike · Post by **Garike** » January 22, 2003, 10:17 am

Unfortunately, the only way we as consumers will win this battle is to completely STOP buying DVD's, CD's, and tapes. The music industry makes way too much money off us consumers as is. I would still refuse to buy anymore CD's even if they do win. But then im just a spiteful asshole!

Always wondered why if it costs less than 2 dollars to make a CD, we pay 15 to 20 dollars for it.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 22, 2003, 10:38 am

FTP servers still run steadily as does Usenet. If it had not been for Assholes On Line discovering the concept of MP3's it would never have been an issue.

I say they should shut down all the brain dead level file sharing, will not stop me or even slow me down.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 22, 2003, 12:04 pm

seriously if you can figure out how to use 2 computer programs (mIRC and any FTP client) you can get all the free shit you want.

edit: though napster did totally rule. it is vary nice to be able to search like that.

Record companies certainly charge too much for CDs and so on, which is part of the problem, and they are thinking about lowering those. But I will say that just because it exists doesn't mean i'm entitled to a free copy of it.

intellectual property rights are very important things to protect, far beyond simple pop music.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 22, 2003, 12:21 pm

Unfortunately, the only way we as consumers will win this battle is to completely STOP buying DVD's, CD's, and tapes. The music industry makes way too much money off us consumers as is.

That has gotta be the biggest load of horseshit I have ever read.

How the fuck are new artists supposed to get a break?

Music theft means that record compaines will be reluctant to sign and distribute artists that aren't guaranteed to sell millions of records.
Music theft means that record compaines will have to raise the price point on CDs because they are selling less.
Music theft means that artists make less money becuase they are selling fewer units.
Music thefts ultimatley results in lower quality music and artists.

What the fuck kind of logic is that?

How about we boycott buying televisions and DVD players and steal them instead because companies like Panasonic and Sony are already making too much money off of us.

Always wondered why if it costs less than 2 dollars to make a CD, we pay 15 to 20 dollars for it

The same reason it's cheaper to steal the blank CDs, you fucking moron.

Here's an average breakdown:

Average CD price: $17

Retail markup : $6.00
Distribution, shipping, storage : $3.00
Marketing/Promotion : $2.15
Royalties to artist/writer : $2.60
Signing bonus and production : $1.10
POP adverts and promotion : $0.85
Media and packaging (the actual CD) : $0.75
Profit to record label : $0.60

So you may think you're fucking over the big evil record compaines by stealing music and burning your own CDs but you're really fucking over:

The artists
The producer
The poor schlep working retail
The guys working in the warehouses
The guys driving the trucks to the warehouses

Post by **Xouqoa** » January 22, 2003, 12:24 pm

Not buying isn't the answer.. I don't know what is, though. CD prices are through the roof compared to what it costs to make them. If the artists were seeing a significant amount of money from each album sold, I might feel differently... but last I heard the artist gets maybe 10% from each CD that is sold? They make most of their money off concert ticket sales and licensing fees (for when they use songs in commercials and such.)

Hell, I think I even remember Moby saying that he made MORE money off licensing fees for all the songs from Play that appeared in movies and shows and commercials, than he actually made from the album selling. And it sold a LOT of copies.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » January 22, 2003, 1:02 pm

Music thefts ultimatley results in lower quality music and artists

Hey buddy I see the charts these days and wonder how the above situation could possibly come about?

The breakdown is good but frankly the music corporations could downsize a couple of hundred suit-wearing media shitewhores (check out the marketting slice of teh pie^H^H^Hcake!!!) and knock a few quid off the cover price of CDs.

I'm replacing my vinyl with CDs atm and the prices are cocking ridiculous frankly. But I'd rather pay the money than waste hours of my life hunting/queueing/downloading/burning an inferior copy at the end of the day.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 22, 2003, 1:05 pm

I wouldn't think I'd get to the age where I'd say this, but I really don't care about new music any longer. Artists aren't cultivated like they used to be. Most can crank out one good album and then they're all completely dried up. I was just watching a special on the bee gee's last friday and the number of solid songs they wrote over the years dwarfs the shit artists today get the opportunity to crank out.

Fuck what they charge for cd's. Fuck them for thinking I'm going to repurchase all of my music since you can't buy a fucking cassette any longer. I've never even used mp3's, I just don't care any more.

Post by **Sylvus** » January 22, 2003, 1:15 pm

miir wrote:Here's an average breakdown:

Average CD price: $17

Retail markup : $6.00
Distribution, shipping, storage : $3.00
Marketing/Promotion : $2.15
Royalties to artist/writer : $2.60
Signing bonus and production : $1.10
POP adverts and promotion : $0.85
Media and packaging (the actual CD) : $0.75
Profit to record label : $0.60

How true is that? Are those actual numbers or are you just estimating? I had always believed that the record label made much more than royalties to the artist/writer, I was pretty sure I read that somewhere once.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » January 22, 2003, 1:19 pm

How can we have lower quality music when we have AMERICAN IDOL!?

Actually I don't think we would even notice if the over all trend of music got worse because the radio basically tells us what is going to be a hit. They can do this because the record labels pay big bucks to have that song played over and over again. Pretty soon you get that song in your head and you are hooked.

I do agree that downloading songs isn't helping the industry. I know that I am guilty of downloading mp3's though I have found it to be easier to just borrow the cd from someone and rip the songs from there. Most likely the same thing I guess. I haven't heard the porn industry complaining yet though.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 22, 2003, 1:23 pm

How true is that? Are those actual numbers or are you just estimating? I had always believed that the record label made much more than royalties to the artist/writer, I was pretty sure I read that somewhere once.

Having close friends and family involved in the industry, I pay pretty close attention to it. My figures aren't 100% accurate but my point was to show that the majority of the retail price of CDs comes not from the record company, but from the stores themselves.
I used to work in retal, for a major Canadian record retalier and I know the costs our warehouse paid for the product. I also knew the markup the stores made on the product.

Even 10 years ago, the average unit price for a top selling CD was around $10. Another thing to keep in mind is that inflation does not really apply to music.
Running a record company is not a very profitable business these days.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 22, 2003, 1:27 pm

Best Album cover/CD Art ever:

Fits in with the rest of everyone's recorded CDs. Got to like artists with a sense of humor.

Post by **Sylvus** » January 22, 2003, 1:37 pm

Having close friends and family involved in the industry, I pay pretty close attention to it. My figures aren't 100% accurate but my point was to show that the majority of the retail price of CDs comes not from the record company, but from the stores themselves.
I used to work in retal, for a major Canadian record retalier and I know the costs our warehouse paid for the product. I also knew the markup the stores made on the product.

Oh yeah, I don't dispute that most of the price comes from other costs, I was just wondering if the percentages were off for those two. I remember seeing something about A Tribe Called Quest making something like $30k-$50k for The Low End Theory and it making me ill. They signed a shitty contract and got paid a pittance for one of the greatest rap albums of all time. That and hearing that a band can make a lot more from touring and doing live shows than they will for making an album had me wondering just what the split was, after all costs were paid off, between the record company and the musicians.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 22, 2003, 1:42 pm

miir wrote:
Running a record company is not a very profitable business these days.

Probably because they're spending too much on the coke they give to pd's just to play the garbage.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » January 22, 2003, 1:49 pm

I gotta say, I use Kazaa/FTP all the time to check shit out.... but being an ex-band guy myself, I always go out and buy the album if I like more than 2 songs on it. And for the record, that new System of a Down CD > All.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 22, 2003, 2:01 pm

I was just wondering if the percentages were off for those two.

When you buy a full price CD, roughly 20% of your money goes to the people who actually made the music. Depending on the contract, of course.
There are far too many variables to make a completely accurate estimate. Producer, musicians, writers, signing bonus and various other costs all factor into how much of your money reaches the artists.

As for the record companies, they make 3-4% profit when you buy a full price CD.

. I remember seeing something about A Tribe Called Quest making something like $30k-$50k for The Low End Theory and it making me ill. They signed a shitty contract and got paid a pittance for one of the greatest rap albums of all time.

It's not really the record companies fault if an artists agrees to a shitty contract, is it? They probably just took the 'pahttest' signing bonus they could get.... That's par for the course. Find a potentially hot act and lure them in with a HUGE signing bonus.
While I doubt the royalties from LET was as low as 30-50k, I dont doubt that Tribe got a lousy royalty deal from Jive. Irrespective of that, at the time LET was released it was not a huge seller. Tribe was always more 'underground' than their contemporaries. De La Soul and Digable Planets were selling scads more records than Tribe.

These days, record compaies are more reluctant to sign acts like Tribe who will release a critically acclaimed and admired album but won't move the units of a 'P-diddy hit factory' artists.
It's a shame really, and these music theft programs have played a large part in the sad state of the music industry today.

Garike · Post by **Garike** » March 4, 2003, 9:33 pm

Hey Miir, no offense but....Kiss my ass!

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » March 5, 2003, 1:13 am

Not sure about these days but CDs used to be cheaper to make than Cassettes. And ended up costing more to purchase. That's when I figured out the music industry was run by a bunch of greedy bastards who couldn't care less for the artists as long as they sell records.

Having said that, I download a lot, mostly stuff I haven't heard of before because I sure as hell usually wont hear new stuff on the radio (in my area). But I also buy music that I end up liking.

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » March 5, 2003, 1:35 am

Cost of printing, shipping and storing a CD / DVD is a fraction that of a tape / vhs.

Yet you will see the price mark up of anywhere from $5 to $10. Why? Because it increases their overall profit. Supply and demand. Not much demand anymore for tapes / vhs's, however the demand for CD's / DVD's is huge.

You will also note that the music industry had promised reduced costs when CD's came out, citing the exact reasons of cheaper production, shipping and storage. Of course the record companies were just slammed in a $67 million dollar price fixing suit.

see more here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Feb26.html

You'll also note that record sales have actually gone up since file sharing started, not down. However the quality of todays artists are shite to say the least.

I'd purchase more CD's if they had them around the $11.99 (CDN) mark that you would see tapes at now a days.

I still love the blank CD tax that was implemented in Canada to help canadian artists. Like I'm going to waste a blank CD to copy Celine Dion

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 5, 2003, 1:44 am

I'm calling bullshit on miir. The record companies may only realize 60 cents PROFIT on each CD, but I've highlighted in RED the monies that are eaten by the bureaucracy of the record companies themselves.

miir wrote:
Always wondered why if it costs less than 2 dollars to make a CD, we pay 15 to 20 dollars for it
The same reason it's cheaper to steal the blank CDs, you fucking moron.

Here's an average breakdown:

Average CD price: $17

Retail markup : $6.00
Distribution, shipping, storage : $3.00
Marketing/Promotion : $2.15
Royalties to artist/writer : $2.60
Signing bonus and production : $1.10
POP adverts and promotion : $0.85
Media and packaging (the actual CD) : $0.75
Profit to record label : $0.60

So you may think you're fucking over the big evil record compaines by stealing music and burning your own CDs but you're really fucking over:

The artists
The producer
The poor schlep working retail
The guys working in the warehouses
The guys driving the trucks to the warehouses

Such utter bullshit.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 5, 2003, 10:41 am

prof·it

The return received on a business undertaking after all operating expenses have been met.

If there is no product promotion there is no profit. It's in the artist and record companies best interest to promote their product.

I never claimed my figures to be totally accurate.
If you can disprove my estimations, do it..... but 'calling bullshit' on them is just blowing smoke out your masekle.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » March 5, 2003, 11:04 am

EveryTime I watch MTV Cribs I feel like I am screwing over the Artist. My God the Filth and Poverty they must live in is unbearable.

Shaerra · Post by **Shaerra** » March 5, 2003, 12:01 pm

One guy was forced to get gold fixtures for his mansion because platinum was out of his budget.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 5, 2003, 12:44 pm

miir wrote:If there is no product promotion there is no profit. It's in the artist and record companies best interest to promote their product.

I never claimed my figures to be totally accurate.
If you can disprove my estimations, do it..... but 'calling bullshit' on them is just blowing smoke out your masekle.

Again, pure bullshit. The grunge trend in the late 80s/early 90s wasn't fueled by promotion. The record companies were still dumping cash on winners like Slaughter and Danger Danger. "They may suck ass, but just look at all that HAIR!" The record companies caught on only when sales of hair metal went to shit.

Basically the same thing happened w/ rap several years earlier. Zero promotion at first, zero radio airplay, zero interest from the industry. The only difference in this group was that some of the artists themselves got into the production side of the business (Dre and Puffi) and took finished product to the companies, rather than waiting to be discovered.

My point is that there is profit to be made even without promotion. No, if you're a no-talent boy-band or sucky pop-diva, there is no profit without promotion. But good music will always find a market, and the file sharing is a great tool to do it.

Eminem had pretty much his entire album leaked to the 'Net, and it still broke all sales records. Admittedly, you can't buy exposure like the homo-activists gave the guy, but it's a kickass album with lots of content.

So you see, the only ones that file sharing hurts are the marketing whores, the sales goons, and artists that suck like Britteny Spheres and Metallica.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 5, 2003, 1:09 pm

The grunge trend in the late 80s/early 90s wasn't fueled by promotion

I was a buyer for a major Canadian music retailer from 89-92, and believe me, grunge was promoted by every major who had a grunge type act signed.

The record companies were still dumping cash on winners like Slaughter and Danger Danger.

Don't forget Warrant, New Kids On The Block and Vanilla Ice.

Basically the same thing happened w/ rap several years earlier. Zero promotion at first, zero radio airplay, zero interest from the industry

Acts like Run DMC, LL Cool J and MC Hammer received plenty of support from their respective record companies.

My point is that there is profit to be made even without promotion

Bullshit.
Record companies lose money on a lot of acts.

No promotion menas higher profit margin BUT less units moved which equates to zero-low profit

Of course there are exceptions to this rule, but they are certainly not the norm.

Eminem had pretty much his entire album leaked to the 'Net, and it still broke all sales records.

For a 'mega seller' like eminem, the loss of sales due to music theft is less tangible. For artists that don't have multi platinum sales, music theft is a back breaker. Some artists could potentially lose half of their record sales to internet music theft. If these bands arent selling the records, they wont get signed.

Internet music theft is not good for the music industry.
You can try to justify it all you like, but it is theft, plain and simple.

Unlike you, I have family and friends in the music industry and I see firsthand how internet music theft affects artists and producers.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 5, 2003, 5:18 pm

well miir I don't have any statistics to counter yours because record labels don't share that kind of shit, but it is impossible to deny that record labels make obscene profits, and successful artists make obscene amounts of money.

I have heard that a lot of artists are very dissasisfied about the cut of the cut their label takes. Unless you are a guaranteed multi-multi-platinum artist, you can't sign the big contract where you can dictate your own terms. Even bands that have been around for decades with loyal followers are slaves to what the labels give them and have to make their money touring (which is where the majority of the money comes from for 99% of the artists).

All I know is singers and bands that manage to get signed under a major record label generally always become rich. There are artists and songwriters that have retired permanently from the royalties of one hit song.

I don't use this information to justify stealing music off the internet though.. I rarely download anything and if I do it's usually just one song. Most of the albums I buy are on vinyl anyway.

A CD that is a few years old at a mall store in Canada costs almost $30. That is too much for a CD. I had better like every single fucking song on it before I buy it. I almost never justify the cost in my head.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 5, 2003, 5:37 pm

well miir I don't have any statistics to counter yours because record labels don't share that kind of shit, but it is impossible to deny that record labels make obscene profits, and successful artists make obscene amounts of money.

I'm not saying that record companies aren't making money...
It's a business, if it wasn't profitable, it wouldn't be a business.

Record companies make most of their money of multi platinum acts like N'Synch, Brittney and from back catalogue of groups like the beatles, pink floyd and the stones.

But for every multi platinum act, there are thousands of signed acts that either never release an album or sell a meanial number of albums.

I have heard that a lot of artists are very dissasisfied about the cut of the cut their label takes. Unless you are a guaranteed multi-multi-platinum artist, you can't sign the big contract where you can dictate your own terms.

And that's the way it should be.
If every artist had their way, they'd probaly want double what they are making.
A situation like that would force every major label into bankruptcy.

All I know is singers and bands that manage to get signed under a major record label generally always become rich. There are artists and songwriters that have retired permanently from the royalties of one hit song.

Two of my brothers artists have been signed in the past 5 years.
Four of his friends from Philly and NY have signed major label deals.

Out of those 6 artists, not one of them has made enough to retire.

Three of them bought a nice car and moved to a nicer place with their signing bonuses.
One of them is in the studio right now.
One of them had an album in the can when they got dropped.
One of them made a little over 100k in royalties last year.

This is the norm.

Artists that make enough to retire after one hit are like a needle in a haystack.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 5, 2003, 7:00 pm

miir wrote:Unlike you, I have family and friends in the music industry and I see firsthand how internet music theft affects artists and producers.

In the words of the one of the industry's latest craptastic acts: Cry me a river.

I'm sorry that bands with only one good song suffer because we now have a way to listen before we buy a record that's 90% shit.

Millie · Post by **Millie** » March 5, 2003, 7:02 pm

I saw Britney Spears the other night at the Viper Room. She was looking faaaaaaat!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 5, 2003, 7:48 pm

Facing up to the fact that your gimmick career is over can lead to anxiety. Anxiety leads to depression. Depression leads to Ben & Jerry!

But don't worry, her friends in the recording industry will take care of her!