Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

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Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Spang »

Gun Permits: What The Latest Mass Killings Have In Common

They had more in common than unleashing carnage _ nearly every gunman in this monthlong series of mass killings was legally entitled to fire his weapons. So what does that say about the state of gun control laws in this country? One thing appears certain: the regulations aren't getting stricter. Many recent efforts to change weapons laws have been about easing them.

Despite eight rampages that have claimed 57 lives since March 10, "it hasn't sparked any national goal to deal with this epidemic. In fact, it's going the other way," said Scott Vogel of the Freedom States Alliance, a gun control activist group.

Even President Barack Obama has felt that sway. Last month, 65 House Democrats said they would block any attempt to resurrect an expired federal ban against assault weapons.

The pro-gun Democrats, led by Rep. Mike Ross of Arkansas, wrote Attorney General Eric Holder saying they opposed not only a ban on military-style guns, but also efforts "to pass any similar law."

Gun control issues would only produce "a long and divisive fight," they said, at a time when Congress should be focused on the roiling economy.

A few states are trying to loosen gun restrictions. In the Texas Capitol _ where legislators can carry guns _ bills easily passed the Senate in recent weeks that would allow employees to bring weapons to work as long as they leave them locked in their cars, and let those packing heat off the legal hook if they walked into a bar that didn't have signs saying guns weren't allowed inside.

The state also is considering allowing students licensed to carry a concealed weapon _ there are about 300,000 such adults in Texas _ to bring guns on campus. Kansas plans to put a measure on its 2010 ballot that would rewrite the state constitution to make gun ownership a personal, rather than collective, right. In Tennessee, lawmakers made progress this month toward allowing guns to be carried in state and local parks.

"I think you're seeing a continuing change of culture," Vogel said. "I think the gun lobby wants to take away any stigma to gun ownership. I think they feel emboldened, like who's going to stop them?"

The National Rifle Association, the country's most powerful gun lobbying group, declined to comment this week on gun control laws. "Now is not the time to debate politics or discuss policy. It is time for families and communities to grieve and to heal," it said in a prepared statement.

Groups such as Vogel's, and the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, say existing laws are already too weak _ just look at the men who received gun permits, legally bought high-powered weapons, and then mowed down family, friends and total strangers in these past few weeks, they say.

Joining their outrage was the U.S. Conference of Mayors. "How many more gun-related acts of violence must we experience before the nation's leaders will decide that it is time to act?" asked president Manuel Diaz, mayor of Miami.

Gun enthusiasts say there is no way to prevent human beings from committing insane acts _ whether they have a gun permit or not. And studies conflict on whether stricter gun laws lessen gun violence.

On Friday, a depressed and angry Jiverly Wong used a 9 mm and .45-caliber handgun to kill 13 immigrants and service center employees in Binghamton, N.Y., police said. Earlier that day, the ethnic Chinese immigrant from Vietnam mailed an envelope to a Syracuse television station. In it were his gun permit, photos of him smiling while hoisting shiny, big handguns, and his driver's license.

Questions have been raised over the upstate New York gun permit issued to Wong in 1997. Two years later, he was reported to state police by an informer who claimed Wong was planning a bank heist to feed a crack-cocaine habit. Unlike other areas of the state, including New York City, Wong's Broome County permit did not have to be renewed.

Local authorities, however, have broad discretion in reviewing and revoking such permits, according to legal experts. Especially when it comes to drug use, criminal behavior and violence.

"In retrospect, this is probably not a guy who should have had a gun," said attorney Jeffrey Chamberlain, a former Rochester prosecutor and chief counsel to the New York State Police. "No one likes to see things fall through the cracks and it looks like this guy fell through the cracks."

Binghamton police chief Joseph Zikuski said Tuesday that no robbery occurred and there was no merit to review Wong's gun permit.

In New York City, gun permits are reissued every three years.

Yet, regulations differ only slightly between states, Chamberlain said. "They're fairly typical _ don't be a felon, don't be a drunk, don't beat your kids or your wife. Don't be so mentally unbalanced that you need be in an institution."

To Chamberlain, the answer to gun violence lies not in stricter regulations, but in answering the question, "Why are we so tolerant of having guns in this country? The answer to that is historical. We've had guns for a very long time.

"I can't think of any sweeping law change that would address that."

To Vogel, the answer to why atrocities happen in places such as Binghamton, and before that Washington state and Santa Clara, Calif., lies in sheer numbers.

The number 280 million, to be precise, the estimated total of every gun in this country.

"When you have that many guns, those guns are going to be used in horrific ways," Vogel said. "There's just too many. Inevitably, somehow, some way, those weapons are going to be used in an egregious way."
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Post by Drasta »

I didn't read the entire thing but i saw a blip about it on CNN .. and i for one am for more gun regulation and a ban on assault weapons. wtf do you need an AK-47 for? it isn't for deer hunting/duck hunting i know that. there is no reason to have one unless your in the military.
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Drasta wrote:wtf do you need an AK-47 for?
AK-47s are for overthrowing oppressive governments.
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Post by Drasta »

lol well no wonder the republicans want them with this current administration =-P
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Post by Sylvus »

You leftist, commie, pinko pussies! Don't you know that more guns = less gun violence? It's common sense...
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Are you fuckheads really going to go down this path? Not ONE of you has a suggestion on enforcing current laws that people ignore and you want to take away the only defense people have against the nutjobs in the country. If you want to be a pacifist victim waiting to happen, be my guest. I really wish you would take the time to read some of the things Masaad Ayoob has written on this subject instead of spouting your same old liberal horseshit for the 1 billionth time.
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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:How can cities be allowed to pick and choose what part of the constitution they want to uphold? If they want to reduce fatalities, then they need to start with the source. Joe gun owner who legally bought firearms and has no criminal record is not going out and commiting random murders. Start frying every one of these murdering gangster wannabe's and you eliminate the ones commiting the murders and you provide a real deterrent to people. There is no more "street cred" if their role models get fried. The problem with this is that the whining pussy liberals who cry about "guns are bad" are also the ones crying about how the death penalty is over the top. This is the real world....you cannot have this both ways.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I'm sorry, did you say you had a solution or are you being your typical Aslanna-like one liner self?
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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I'm sorry, did you say you had a solution or are you being your typical Aslanna-like one liner self?
I hate guns, you know this. I think guns are fucking stupid. Guns serve only one purpose: to kill. My solution would be outlaw guns, but we all know that will never happen due in large part to the Second Amendment. Other than that, how do you stop "Joe gun owner" from killing people with guns?
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Post by Fash »

You don't, just like you don't stop "Joe fist owner" from beating his wife and kids. It's called free-will, and we have a justice system in place to deal with it.

You cannot stop people from committing crimes. You can try to limit who gets guns and where they can bring them, which we do, but if a perfectly 'normal' person as defined by the law decides to go kill people, we can only deal with the outcome.

We cannot make a prison out of reality, it would not be the utopia you imagine.
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I'm sorry, did you say you had a solution or are you being your typical Aslanna-like one liner self?
I hate guns, you know this. I think guns are fucking stupid. Guns serve only one purpose: to kill. My solution would be outlaw guns, but we all know that will never happen due in large part to the Second Amendment. Other than that, how do you stop "Joe gun owner" from killing people with guns?
The way you stated that highlights a major issue I have with the thought process a lot of people follow.

You are presented with a complex issue (gun control in this case), and there are multiple contributing factors to said issue. Some of these factors are easier to address than others but solely changing them won't really solve the underlying issue, but it's the easy way to make people feel like something is changing and give people some kind of ease of mind, so people are fine with it.

Another example of this would be global warming. One of the biggest contributing factors to this issue is population growth, but that's a really hard issue to address so instead people focus on the easier parts of the equation so they can avoid the elephant in the room but still feel like they are working on fixing the issue.

In short what I'm getting at is this; getting rid of guns would not address the underlying issue, which I believe is people. You are still going to have the nut jobs out there, and if for whatever reason they can't access guns, they'll make freakin bow and arrows, or whatever else. The issue that needs to be addressed is any possible ways to prevent the mental issues that lead to these occurrences, and how the legal system deals with the issues when they do arise.
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Funkmasterr wrote:You are still going to have the nut jobs out there, and if for whatever reason they can't access guns, they'll make freakin bow and arrows, or whatever else. The issue that needs to be addressed is any possible ways to prevent the mental issues that lead to these occurrences, and how the legal system deals with the issues when they do arise.
You're right. If we didn't have guns to kill people with, we'd kill people with other shit. Murders still happen in England after all. But how many English nutjobs, who legally acquired their guns, go on a shooting rampages in England and then kill themselves?
Last edited by Spang on April 8, 2009, 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I agree pretty much 100% with Funk on that. You can make all the laws you want and outlaw things to keep them out of law abiding people's hands, but it will not stop the real underlying issues. If you actually look at firearm crimes, the last 8 years were the lowest figures per capita here since the earliest records that I can find (which is 1973). The news media would have you think that everything is some epidemic...and part of that is because the news is such sensationalist bullshit and leans left to start with.

Shootings and nutjobs happen everywhere...including England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 249541.stm

We live in an era now where there is no personal responsibility accepted for any action. Parents will always lay blame elsewhere for things their kids do and those kids grow up to believe it is anything but themselves that are responsible for an action they performed. Normal people would never have a thought in their head about grabbing a gun and shooting someone to take their shoes. Normal people would not gun down 20 strangers because they lost their job. If the guns are gone, then you are going to see the same nuts snap but use different methods that are just as lethal, if not more so. Check out what good old Tim McVeigh did. How hard is it to make pipe bombs?
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:You are still going to have the nut jobs out there, and if for whatever reason they can't access guns, they'll make freakin bow and arrows, or whatever else. The issue that needs to be addressed is any possible ways to prevent the mental issues that lead to these occurrences, and how the legal system deals with the issues when they do arise.
You're right. If we didn't have guns to kill people with, we'd kill people with other shit. Murders still happen in England after all. But how many English nutjobs, who legally acquired their guns, go on a shooting rampages in England and then kill themselves?
I don't get what your point is. So because you don't like guns, you are fine if we get rid of them and people are beating each other to death with baseball bats and firing bows instead of shooting a gun? I know you can arguably do less damage before someone neutralizes you using these other weapons, but a lot of people would still be murdered (and probably die a slower, more agonizing death on top of it) and the real problem still isn't solved.

At least the guns would be gone, right? Come on.
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Post by Spang »

Funkmasterr wrote:I don't get what your point is. So because you don't like guns, you are fine if we get rid of them and people are beating each other to death with baseball bats and firing bows instead of shooting a gun? I know you can arguably do less damage before someone neutralizes you using these other weapons, but a lot of people would still be murdered (and probably die a slower, more agonizing death on top of it) and the real problem still isn't solved.

At least the guns would be gone, right? Come on.
Yes, in my perfect world, there would be no guns, but that's just a silly pipe dream. So, it looks like what we need to do is give all gun owners mental evaluations. If they're diagnosed as nutjobs, they lose their rights to own guns. The Second Amendment would not apply to them. Deal?
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:I don't get what your point is. So because you don't like guns, you are fine if we get rid of them and people are beating each other to death with baseball bats and firing bows instead of shooting a gun? I know you can arguably do less damage before someone neutralizes you using these other weapons, but a lot of people would still be murdered (and probably die a slower, more agonizing death on top of it) and the real problem still isn't solved.

At least the guns would be gone, right? Come on.
Yes, in my perfect world, there would be no guns, but that won't ever happen. So, it looks like what we need to do is give all gun owners mental evaluations. If they're diagnosed as nutjobs, they lose their rights to own guns. The Second Amendment would not apply to them. Deal?
Not that that would ever happen, but I wouldn't have a issue with part of the application process for a firearm being a mental evaluation. This still won't resolve the issue though because peoples mental state can change, and you still aren't accounting for illegally obtained firearms.
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Post by Spang »

Funkmasterr wrote:Not that that would ever happen, but I wouldn't have a issue with part of the application process for a firearm being a mental evaluation. This still won't resolve the issue though because peoples mental state can change...
Gun owners would need mental evaluations more than once in their lifetime. Perhaps once a year, maybe every 6 months.
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Spang wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:Not that that would ever happen, but I wouldn't have a issue with part of the application process for a firearm being a mental evaluation. This still won't resolve the issue though because peoples mental state can change...
Gun owners would need mental evaluations more than once in their lifetime. Perhaps once a year, maybe every 6 months.
I'm no expert, so I can't say how effective that would be, but I think it would be help and I don't see anything wrong with it.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I will wholeheartedly go along with that....and I say we institute it the very day that you get every gun away from every single person in the US who is not allowed to own one already. So you start writing congress now and then see if you can get the armed forces to start marching into every hood and turn the place upside down to get all the illegal guns out.
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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I will wholeheartedly go along with that....and I say we institute it the very day that you get every gun away from every single person in the US who is not allowed to own one already. So you start writing congress now and then see if you can get the armed forces to start marching into every hood and turn the place upside down to get all the illegal guns out.
I don't know about that, but I do agree - illegal guns are just as big or (imo) a bigger issue, and honestly, like you are pointing out there is no real solution for that issue that can be implemented by making laws. Nothing shy of doing something militant like you said (which I think everyone would be against) is ever going to accomplish that, and then what's to stop more coming in from other countries..
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Can someone hit one of those sites that list how many deaths by type and compare a few years of gun related deaths to automobile related deaths?
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pyrella wrote:Can someone hit one of those sites that list how many deaths by type and compare a few years of gun related deaths to automobile related deaths?
I wasn't going to make the comparison, but yep.
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Post by Winnow »

Would you rather be bludgeoned to death with a bat or shot in the head cleanly? I say keep guns legal. You get much cleaner deaths with less pain.
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Funkmasterr wrote: In short what I'm getting at is this; getting rid of guns would not address the underlying issue, which I believe is people. You are still going to have the nut jobs out there, and if for whatever reason they can't access guns, they'll make freakin bow and arrows, or whatever else. The issue that needs to be addressed is any possible ways to prevent the mental issues that lead to these occurrences, and how the legal system deals with the issues when they do arise.
You realise, that's the exact same logic Iran uses when it says, "We should be allowed to have a nuclear deterrent too!"
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pyrella wrote:Can someone hit one of those sites that list how many deaths by type and compare a few years of gun related deaths to automobile related deaths?
I can get along pretty well without a gun, but taking away the car would severely impact a lot of people's day to day life.

It's a much better argument when you compare illegal drug deaths to alcohol deaths, since you don't *need* either of them, they're directly comparable.

Perhaps we could look at the statistics for yearly deaths from nuclear weapons v's guns and make a case that guns are worse?

Not ALL statistics can be blindly compared.
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Post by pyrella »

Actually - you have equal access to guns and cars, and both require a license. Both of them if you use while drunk severely affects the adverse consequences while using them.

Then again, I'm a huge fan of the poster that says Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store and not a government agency.


Also, I'm pretty sure stats will show that while it's easier to get a car, they kill more people than guns every year. Then again I'm a car hating luddite - I'll also bring up how bad cars when talking about smoking. Second hand smog kills, bitches.
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Post by Wulfran »

Funkmasterr wrote:
pyrella wrote:Can someone hit one of those sites that list how many deaths by type and compare a few years of gun related deaths to automobile related deaths?
I wasn't going to make the comparison, but yep.
Thats because its been shown time and again to be an asinine comparison: you need to add in a "time of use" if you want to even start on this. Millions of people spend hrs each day driving their cars. And no carrying or owning is not the same thing as using. And yes, you DO have to renew a drivers license (on average, depending on your jurisdiction) once every 4 or 5 years, while gun licensing is a mixed bag and not always required.

I'm not a big gun control freak: I don't have any use for handguns but I grew up with shotguns and hunting rifles around and especially for those in rural settings, have no issue with them. I do however believe in screening owners. I also fail to see how owning an AK-47 or M-16 clone or any other assault rifle makes you safer. In some ways I see it as the opposite: if you have a single shot/bolt action/pump action weapon, you aim and reload your chamber after each shot, making you reevaluate after each round. In in a home protection scenario which is what the most valid argument comes back to, is that not what you want or would you rather be in "spray and pray" mode inside your house and close to your family? Futhermore outlawing assault weapons makes it real easy to enforce: you have one, you're breaking the law. Period.

For such an inventive, innovative and independent country, a lot of Americans seem to cave in on tackling the problem of violent crime, particularly as it pertains to firearms way too easily.
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Post by Fash »

As time goes my, so does my desire to have a gun... just in case.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

http://www.csdp.org/research/1238.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/pubs/p ... y99-05.htm

this site shows that poisoning and motor vehicles both killed more from 99-2005.

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

This site shows the skewing of firearm deaths by suicides being responsible for 55% of he related statstics.

There are a lot of different angles to every firearm "fact" that gets put out. I saw a lot of misinformation even on some of those sites I linked. It is pretty easy to twist facts to your own liking...and with the mainstream media being anti-gun, most of what is accepted as "fact" comes with their own nice little twist on it.
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Ha, and you pretentious fuckwits think its ok to berate me for my anti-war, anti-bullshit beliefs?

Congratulations on legitimising a forum where the idiots run amok.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Leonaerd »

Guns should be legal because if they were illegal, criminals would still have guns, and proper defense would be more difficult.

Cars should be more efficient, but there's too much diplomacy in such a huge business to actually get anything constructive done in less than a quarter century.

Y'all should calm down and try discussing opinions without implementing so much of the hate you already have against each other. I manage to post here without douchebaggery, and lo, I breathe just as well.

A proactive debate doesn't involve two people with opposing opinions attempting to violently convert the other's belief with slander and degrading comments. When I see somebody showing emotion by including personal attacks and slander, I usually feel that they aren't confident in their argument, regardless of frustration.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Wulfran »

I don't hate anyone around these boards these days :p

I disagree with Kilmoll on some issues, just as I disagree with Nick and almost anyone at times.

Back to the gun thing, I still think guns vs cars is a ridiculous comparison because of the time of use (i.e. personhrs of use/death) component. Honestly I don't know how it is possible to compare the two when their basic functions are so different (one being a tool for hunting/protection which makes it more dangerous by design, the other being a tool/mode of transportation). But this is ground we've been over before too.

In some respects poisoning deaths increasing doesn't surprise me: people committing murders don't want to be caught and poisoning is a way to delay if not outright avoid suspicion. This seems more logical for a planned killing unless someone thought they could disguise a shooting so there was no suspicion resting on themself.

In the end, I realize I'm not going to convince some of you that not owning handguns is better than owning them and vice versa. On the personal front, my fiance and I have discussed it and she (former cop and did a stint in the US Army as a Blackhawk crewchief... she is so going to kick the shit out of me if I misbehave :p) doesn't want handguns around either. But my question about assault weapons from my earlier post still stands: why would you want the damned things around? If I beat the odds (or lost to them is more accurate) and was defending my home/family I would want something with stopping power and something that minimizes collateral damage (shotgun with slugs/buckshot is probably the ideal solution for that situation). Range isn't going to be a big deal, and volume of fire isn't something I would want in my home with a possibility of ricochets/badly aimed rounds being a possible danger to wife and kids.

The argument about criminals having access to them is largely irrelevant, IMO: who the fuck is going to be stupid enough to approach a situation if they hear automatic weapons fire? I'm calling the cops and letting someone else who is trained for it, deal with it. If they break into your home, as I said above: they can hose down the place but thats not your aim anyway... you want controlled response and they've given away any advantage in range/accuracy they might have once had. That of course leaves the paranoid "Red Dawn" or "Rambo: First Blood" fantasies about fighting off an invading force or your own "corrupted" government's forces, in which case all I can say is seek professional psychological help. Especially now when the US and NATO are involved in major counter-insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan, if they ever did decide to do something like declare martial law and do away with your rights, they'd know your tactics for fighting back before you thought of them, so the fantasy is just that.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Leonaerd »

former cop and did a stint in the US Army as a Blackhawk crewchief... she is so going to kick the shit out of me if I misbehave
Her kegels probably strangle.

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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Drasta »

talking about the gov't coming to attack us in our homes .... lets see ... shotgun vs bomber jet ... whose gonna win? or ... tank vs me and my ak-47. get real guys, if someone was going to invade on a large enough scale that civilians had to start attacking from their homes, we'd be fucked.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Wulfran wrote: In the end, I realize I'm not going to convince some of you that not owning handguns is better than owning them and vice versa. On the personal front, my fiance and I have discussed it and she (former cop and did a stint in the US Army as a Blackhawk crewchief... she is so going to kick the shit out of me if I misbehave :p) doesn't want handguns around either. But my question about assault weapons from my earlier post still stands: why would you want the damned things around? If I beat the odds (or lost to them is more accurate) and was defending my home/family I would want something with stopping power and something that minimizes collateral damage (shotgun with slugs/buckshot is probably the ideal solution for that situation). Range isn't going to be a big deal, and volume of fire isn't something I would want in my home with a possibility of ricochets/badly aimed rounds being a possible danger to wife and kids.
I was not a big believer in a rifle as a home defense weapon at all until recently. Trust me when I say I have read and viewed a LOT of information about penetration, stopping power, trends, etc, etc. Inside a home, rifle, shotgun, and pistol rounds will all penetrate the walls. Buckshot and slugs both are extremely good at penetrating drywall and do not get much deflection at all. Buckshot spreads and could be worse than other alternatives if other people are in the house. Heavier, slower pistol rounds will actually deflect a bit more....I am talking more along the lines of a .45 ACP which will deflect more and be more apt to stop than a 9mm. A .223 round (the round from an AR-15) actually deflects downwards more and begins to break apart quickly when fired through drywall...which means that you most likely will end up with less chance at hitting someone with a lethal shot from an AR-15 if they are 1 or 2 rooms away.

The "assault rifle" stuff is really a load of crap. US citizends do not have ready access to assault rifles at all. They have access to semi automatic and NOT full auto. With a trend towards home invasions that are performed by multiple people that are armed, you want something with a higher capacity and more stopping power than some pistols will give you. I do not personally own one and am sticking to a tactical shotgun (short barrel, recoil reducing stock, 8 round tube) if I ever am forced into that situation.

You have to understand that real life is not the movies. You do not shoot someone with a 9mm and they go flying backwards dead as a doornail. In the real world, even if I use a .50 Desert Eagle and I shoot your heart completely out of your chest, you still have enough oxygen in your blood to continue functioning for 10-20 seconds. Think about that one for a minute. The only true "one shot stop" is if you actually manage to put a round through someone's spinal column (or in some cases put it close enough that the temporary cavity from the bullet causes a compression on the spine that can also cause paralysis) or if you hit the cortex of the brain. The evil black rifles give a much better chance of that happening because of their higher capacity and also because they tend to open a larger temporary cavity. Those rounds also tend to tumble when they shit something with means thay are going sideways....which gives a larger cutting area and also limits you overpenetrating and going out the back and then through walls and across the street.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Drasta wrote:talking about the gov't coming to attack us in our homes .... lets see ... shotgun vs bomber jet ... whose gonna win? or ... tank vs me and my ak-47. get real guys, if someone was going to invade on a large enough scale that civilians had to start attacking from their homes, we'd be fucked.

Tell that to the guys fighting in Iraq. Now imagine that you have 6 million armed people across that same country. They would not ever bomb their own people because of the collateral damage...which would turn even more people agaisnt them.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Drasta »

if the govt is attacking its own people i doubt they will care about collateral damage. saddam used chemical weapons on people in his country ... and iraq/Afghanistan doesnt have to do with my argument because were going after "terror cells" not the country itself.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by miir »

saddam used chemical weapons on people in his country ...
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Sabek »

Wulfran wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:
pyrella wrote:Can someone hit one of those sites that list how many deaths by type and compare a few years of gun related deaths to automobile related deaths?
I wasn't going to make the comparison, but yep.
Thats because its been shown time and again to be an asinine comparison: you need to add in a "time of use" if you want to even start on this. Millions of people spend hrs each day driving their cars. And no carrying or owning is not the same thing as using. And yes, you DO have to renew a drivers license (on average, depending on your jurisdiction) once every 4 or 5 years, while gun licensing is a mixed bag and not always required.

I'm not a big gun control freak: I don't have any use for handguns but I grew up with shotguns and hunting rifles around and especially for those in rural settings, have no issue with them. I do however believe in screening owners. I also fail to see how owning an AK-47 or M-16 clone or any other assault rifle makes you safer. In some ways I see it as the opposite: if you have a single shot/bolt action/pump action weapon, you aim and reload your chamber after each shot, making you reevaluate after each round. In in a home protection scenario which is what the most valid argument comes back to, is that not what you want or would you rather be in "spray and pray" mode inside your house and close to your family? Futhermore outlawing assault weapons makes it real easy to enforce: you have one, you're breaking the law. Period.

For such an inventive, innovative and independent country, a lot of Americans seem to cave in on tackling the problem of violent crime, particularly as it pertains to firearms way too easily.
You do realize that the scary AK-47 and M-16 clones you speak of are not full auto and therefore are not really spray and pray.
You have to pull the trigger once for every bullet you shoot.
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Re: Killing People With Guns Isn't Just For Criminals Anymore

Post by Canelek »

Kilmoll pretty much hit it with the ballistics breakdown, in general terms. Also, there are a few mfgs of "home defense" cartridges for many handgun calibers. These are regular loads with specialty bullets that fragment or disentegrate upon initial impact and force dispersion. Not so sure on rifle ammo, but there most likely is something out there.
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