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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

The gubment knowing where you are at all times.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29298315/
The idea also is gaining ground in several states. Governors in Idaho and Rhode Island are talking about such programs, and a North Carolina panel suggested in December the state start charging motorists a quarter-cent for every mile as a substitute for the gas tax.

A tentative plan in Massachusetts to use GPS chips in vehicles to charge motorists by the mile has drawn complaints from drivers who say it's an Orwellian intrusion by government into the lives of citizens. Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers.
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Post by miir »

That's fucking retarded.
I'm still a bit puzzled as to why Obama would choose an idiot like that.
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Post by Aslanna »

I'm sure this is Obama's fault too. Fucking Obama!
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

miir wrote:That's fucking retarded.
I'm still a bit puzzled as to why Obama would choose an idiot like that.
Even more puzzling is why he picked a Republican like this. They definitely have better choices out there if he wanted a token GOP rep. Somehow individual states have also introduced this absurdity.
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Post by miir »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Even more puzzling is why he picked a Republican like this.
I was going to point out that he was a rebuplican but I didn't want to be redundant.
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Post by Sylvus »

I mean, while I realize there are some other ways to raise money, what exactly is retarded about this? With the (hopeful) push for greater fuel efficiency, how do you suggest we fund highways and such? Let's, for the sake of this discussion, disregard "Big Brother" arguments for now.
Most transportation experts see a vehicle miles traveled tax as a long-term solution
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Post by Xatrei »

I don't really have an issue with mileage based taxes. I actually think there's probably a good argument to be made for them, although this sort of plan raises significant privacy concerns. I wouldn't think those issues are be terribly difficult to address, though. Regardless of how easily they are to fix, they would need to be addressed before something like this has any chance of becoming the law of the land.
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Post by VariaVespasa »

What Sylvus said, basically. Roads are paid for by gas taxes mainly, and if those fall due to increased fuel efficiency etc then some other source of revenue must take its place, and taxing the people who use the roads according to their use of the roads is the most logical solution. I admit I dont like the possible government tracking of stuff, but that aside it does seem the fairest solution.
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Post by Syenye »

Raising the gas tax makes so much more sense, since it doesn't require additional infrastructure. It's going to cost a lot of money to do implement this plan, and placing the burden (directly) on consumers and/or manufacturers doesn't seem like the best option right now. How do they plan on paying for it?
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Post by cadalano »

the logistics of requiring a gps locator in every vehicle seems kinda pipe dreamish, no? then theres maintaining them... the possibility of tampering.. etc.

gas tax is mo betta- and yeah, it also rewards efficiency
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Post by Canelek »

Tax the oil companies. They reap billions in profits, whether the price of oil is $25 or $125 per barrel.

While mileage tax seems at least somewhat logical for the long term, it puts even more tax burden on the taxpayer--namely those who have long commutes or travel via private transportation frequently.
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Post by Xatrei »

All else aside, President Obama's Press Secretary, Robert Gibbs, just said emphatically that "it is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration" when asked about LaHood's comments. Sounds like LaHood was speaking out of turn and expressing a personally held opinion, rather than the administration's.
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Post by Sylvus »

I'm not sure if the article said how quickly they were planning on enacting it, but wouldn't the first step of getting GPS units in all cars be to require new cars to be manufactured with them?

While raising the gas tax works for now, what happens as more and more cars use less and less (or no) gas? We're not talking about a tax break for being environmentally friendly or anything like that, we're talking about creating and repairing roads that all cars - even a car that uses no gasoline - should be responsible for. Eventually we have to move to a system that doesn't get the money from gasoline, since eventually we have to move away from gasoline.

Are all cars with OnStar currently manufactured with GPS in them? If you're concerned about Big Brother, don't most (all?) cell phones already have GPS installed in them? Couldn't this be a good thing for a number of reasons such as emergency response, tracking how much use certain highways get so that money is routed appropriately for expansion/repair/etc., tracking traffic patterns, etc?

I don't see a huge negative, provided most of the data is reported anonymously or the appropriate data usage policies are put in place.
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Sylvus wrote:I'm not sure if the article said how quickly they were planning on enacting it, but wouldn't the first step of getting GPS units in all cars be to require new cars to be manufactured with them?

While raising the gas tax works for now, what happens as more and more cars use less and less (or no) gas? We're not talking about a tax break for being environmentally friendly or anything like that, we're talking about creating and repairing roads that all cars - even a car that uses no gasoline - should be responsible for. Eventually we have to move to a system that doesn't get the money from gasoline, since eventually we have to move away from gasoline.

Are all cars with OnStar currently manufactured with GPS in them? If you're concerned about Big Brother, don't most (all?) cell phones already have GPS installed in them? Couldn't this be a good thing for a number of reasons such as emergency response, tracking how much use certain highways get so that money is routed appropriately for expansion/repair/etc., tracking traffic patterns, etc?

I don't see a huge negative, provided most of the data is reported anonymously or the appropriate data usage policies are put in place.
My concern would be - how long before this information falls into the hands of car insurance companies? The insurance companies have already pleaded their case to the government and been allowed to use credit score to determine how much you pay for car insurance, which is criminal insanity btw, I just don't think they would have to do too much convincing to let the government access this type of technology.

Progressive is already trying to get people to install chips in their cars computer, offering a discount, and saying that your rate will never go up because of info collected from it (ROFL).

My problem with the gas tax or anything else is this: In Minnesota, a lot of the money from the powerball and other state lotteries is supposed to go to the roads, this is in addition to the other tax money that is also supposed to go to the roads.

It is very evident that the money that should be going to the roads is not, at least not all of it. Road work here is out of date immediately because of the unusually long time it takes for the work to get done. Because of the cold winters you say? Wrong. It's because the state only pays for portions of the work at a time, so the workers take their time doing it, because they know the state is going to fuck around on approving the next chunk of funds, and there is always downtime.

Not to mention their idea of roadwork here isn't to deal with the massive traffic issues cause of a mostly 20+ year old infrastructure, but just to put that gooey tar shit in all the massive cracks and potholes.

When the government starts spending the money they already are getting on the roads on them, and adopts a much more efficient way of funding the projects - then I would be fine with something like this. Until then, absolutely not.

It's like the wildlife bill that passed this election in MN. Tons of money from the lottery and taxes is supposed to go to the state parks & wild life. This money is obviously being mismanaged, but people vote to give them more money anyhow.. I just don't get it.
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Post by Boogahz »

Funkmasterr wrote:Progressive is already trying to get people to install chips in their cars computer, offering a discount, and saying that your rate will never go up because of info collected from it (ROFL).
1) You plug a box into your onboard diagnostic port, not a chip into the car

2) It won't go up...in your state. There are several models already being tested that have to be approved by each state individually. MN was one of the first states where the MyRate device was being tested as Tripsense. I never saw a Tripsense device reading cause an increase in premium. It can't because you will still get a 5% discount just for participating in the program in some states. There are a few states, probably those that already have some ideas about implementing pay-by-the-mile taxes, where the premium CAN increase based on poor driving behaviors (they have to be pretty extreme too, I have tested it :P ). Even the states that allowed, or even asked for, increases for bad drivers capped that at 10% in most cases. What this device does best is get people to actually THINK about their driving behaviors. There are some things that drivers take notice of only because of the fact that their speed, braking time, and accelleration are being tracked along with miles driven and the time of day. Those are the only things tracked, even though the tin-foil brigade will tell you otherwise.

Can these things change? Sure, 30 years ago the auto industry didn't even have any kind of standard VINs to be tracked.
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Boogahz wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:Progressive is already trying to get people to install chips in their cars computer, offering a discount, and saying that your rate will never go up because of info collected from it (ROFL).
1) You plug a box into your onboard diagnostic port, not a chip into the car

2) It won't go up...in your state. There are several models already being tested that have to be approved by each state individually. MN was one of the first states where the MyRate device was being tested as Tripsense. I never saw a Tripsense device reading cause an increase in premium. It can't because you will still get a 5% discount just for participating in the program in some states. There are a few states, probably those that already have some ideas about implementing pay-by-the-mile taxes, where the premium CAN increase based on poor driving behaviors (they have to be pretty extreme too, I have tested it :P ). Even the states that allowed, or even asked for, increases for bad drivers capped that at 10% in most cases. What this device does best is get people to actually THINK about their driving behaviors. There are some things that drivers take notice of only because of the fact that their speed, braking time, and accelleration are being tracked along with miles driven and the time of day. Those are the only things tracked, even though the tin-foil brigade will tell you otherwise.

Can these things change? Sure, 30 years ago the auto industry didn't even have any kind of standard VINs to be tracked.

If I want to go 120 down the shoulder in rush hour traffic, it's nobody's business but my own until I get caught or hurt someone. Also, I'm pulling the slippery slope card here. That may be all they track now but I'd be willing to bet that could change in a hurry (and probably will).
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Post by Boogahz »

Funkmasterr wrote:If I want to go 120 down the shoulder in rush hour traffic, it's nobody's business but my own until I get caught or hurt someone. Also, I'm pulling the slippery slope card here. That may be all they track now but I'd be willing to bet that could change in a hurry (and probably will).
The device you're talking about cannot track much more. Many cars can already track more than this can in the computer itself. The information being sent to the insurance company is just part of what is there.

If you go 120 down the shoulder during rush hour, you should be arrested and have your driving privileges revoked.
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Post by cadalano »

If I want to go 120 down the shoulder in rush hour traffic, it's nobody's business but my own until I get caught or hurt someone.
i was wondering how long it would take you to regenerate into the full-blown idiot you were before going on hiatus from the vagina-shattering election
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Post by Gzette »

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Post by Xatrei »

In case anyone missed it earlier...
Xatrei wrote:All else aside, President Obama's Press Secretary, Robert Gibbs, just said emphatically that "it is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration" when asked about LaHood's comments. Sounds like LaHood was speaking out of turn and expressing a personally held opinion, rather than the administration's.
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Post by Bubba Grizz »

I wouldn't be opposed to Toll Roads on the major highways in our state. I would oppose having a chip put in my car to monitor my milages for tax purposes though I think something for the insurance company this could be a voluntary thing. Get big discounts for not driving huge miles and such. I'd be ok with that. Hell, doesn't On Star have something like this already? Does that data go anywhere beyond On Star? Is On Star secretly owned by the government?
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Post by Forthe »

Raising the gas tax to compensate for increased efficiency is is the most logical (and unobtrussive) option but it will be pollitically messy. It is harder to explain that (higher tax x higher efficiency) ~ (lower tax x lower efficiency) and justify the need for road funds than it is to should "they are raising your taxes!!".
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Post by Zaelath »

cadalano wrote:
If I want to go 120 down the shoulder in rush hour traffic, it's nobody's business but my own until I get caught or hurt someone.
i was wondering how long it would take you to regenerate into the full-blown idiot you were before going on hiatus from the vagina-shattering election
It's ok, I'm sure he wouldn't use his car in this fashion unless he felt his life was threatened.

As for this legislation..

Cost of driving on roads ~= weight of vehicle x mileage

Motorcyclists don't cause much wear on the road, until they fall of. Trucks cause massive damage to the roads all the time.

If you have a super fuel efficient car that does 100 miles to the gallon, it doesn't matter if you jack the fuel excise, you're still not paying your 'share'

However, all that aside... chips? satelites? Have these people never heard of a fucking odometer?

There's a LOT of tax that is based on the honour system until they decide to look at you, there's no reason that couldn't include the milage meter.
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Boogahz wrote:
Funkmasterr wrote:If I want to go 120 down the shoulder in rush hour traffic, it's nobody's business but my own until I get caught or hurt someone. Also, I'm pulling the slippery slope card here. That may be all they track now but I'd be willing to bet that could change in a hurry (and probably will).
The device you're talking about cannot track much more. Many cars can already track more than this can in the computer itself. The information being sent to the insurance company is just part of what is there.

If you go 120 down the shoulder during rush hour, you should be arrested and have your driving privileges revoked.
I figured it could already be tracked, but like I said, it's just the sending it to the insurance companies part that bothers me. And I was just making a extreme example with the shoulder and rush hour thing :D
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Post by Xatrei »

Zaelath wrote:However, all that aside... chips? satelites? Have these people never heard of a fucking odometer?

There's a LOT of tax that is based on the honour system until they decide to look at you, there's no reason that couldn't include the milage meter.
The need for a GPS-based tracking system is probably driven more by the state / local governments that are exploring this. They can't tax you for mileage you drive outside of their jurisdictions, and they would need a way to calculate what you owe without putting an unreasonable burden on drivers. Forcing drivers to essentially itemize their mileage in order to prove that portion x of their mileage is exempt would be an insurmountable hurdle for getting a usage-based tax instated.
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Post by Boogahz »

Xatrei wrote:
Zaelath wrote:However, all that aside... chips? satelites? Have these people never heard of a fucking odometer?

There's a LOT of tax that is based on the honour system until they decide to look at you, there's no reason that couldn't include the milage meter.
The need for a GPS-based tracking system is probably driven more by the state / local governments that are exploring this. They can't tax you for mileage you drive outside of their jurisdictions, and they would need a way to calculate what you owe without putting an unreasonable burden on drivers. Forcing drivers to essentially itemize their mileage in order to prove that portion x of their mileage is exempt would be an insurmountable hurdle for getting a usage-based tax instated.

Also, some states do not have a way to track annual miles as it is.
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Post by Gzette »

Sounds like it'd be a much easier, less costly and more sensical endeavor to raise gas taxes (at least in Texas). Of course, voters would hate that. I'm for it, by I'm a tax-you-til-you-die-and-then-tax-your-estate liberal I suppose.
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cost of implementing and managing gps system > increase in tax revenue over current excises.

not to mention the privacy concerns which are insurmountable.

idiots.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Maybe they should implant chips in people who ride buses so they can pay their fair share too.
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Post by pyrella »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Maybe they should implant chips in people who ride buses so they can pay their fair share too.

Don't they 'pay' their fair share via...paying for their fare?
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I don't see any taxes on bus fare.
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Most buses are municipal services - thus all money goes directly to the <insert type> of govt here - whether it be city or state. Mostly for the upkeep, but they in turn pay tax on the gas they purchase, the drivers are taxed, etc, etc.

The reason that the fare is 1.00 and the passenger doesn't pay 1.08 (assuming 8.25% tax out here) - is more than likely that A) The amount of people carried by the bus, and their individual fares far outweighs operating costs of the upkeep/fuel/drivers salary - and B) The fact that the bus is to provide a means of conveyance to jobs that will pay taxes, to commerce centers, which will also provide taxes, etc. Buses make a killing - and at least here in California they are all run by the city/county/state, depending on what you're using.

Think of the bus as the hippie commune - sure everyone's only paying a buck - but it cost 50 bucks to get 50 people to one destination, but it only cost you 4$ in gas to get to the same place in your car. Of course, on an individual level, even tho the bus may provide more wear 'n' tear and emissions (even tho we aren't going there in this post) as an individual vehicle, the personal onus is reduced.

Also, don't forget - EVERYONE pays taxes at the city/county/state level - so ride the bus or not, if you have municipal bus service....taxes have been paid.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

The buses here don't make enough to sustain themselves, much less make money to pay for roads.
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Post by Funkmasterr »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:The buses here don't make enough to sustain themselves, much less make money to pay for roads.
Here either. All they do really is get in the way and slow down traffic for the 99.5% of people that don't ride the bus.
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