Should the Bush administration be prosecuted for war crimes?

[Xyun]

It is pretty clear to me that the Bush administration is guilty of war crimes. They have so much as admitted that they have tortured people, believing that they had the moral authority for the action. In my opinion, not prosecuting the crimes sets a tremendously horrible precedent that will, among other consequences, put American soldiers who get captured in the future in danger of being tortured. Other consequences include Bush being prosecuted by courts outside of the U.S., whereby regardless of our recognition of such proceedings, the rest of the world will be infuriated. And of course, future administrations will believe they too can easily get away with war crimes as well, and we slide down a slippery slope. Also, no man in this country should be above the law.

These are just a few of the many many reasons I believe prosecutions are warranted. But I believe I'm in the minority and most people are too apathetic to care enough, or are just against it for other reasons. I am pretty curious about why anyone would be against pursuing justice. Please explain your vote, especially if you voted no.

[Leonaerd]

Torture exists to keep us safe. It always will be around, chiefly because it's instantaneously effective and because opposing factions will continue to torture. This poll shows your bias towards a political party, when you know as well as anybody else here that the system in place is far greater of a problem. The democracy we have is a brooding ground for corruption on levels never before obtainable, thanks in part to the internet, globalization, and money. Americans in particular have an eerily deficient knowledge of anything important, and will believe anything with a positive spin. It's as if they pride themselves on being ignorant. It's visible in social situations, online forums, the media, politics.......

Someone said that the only thing more deadly than ignorance is the illusion of knowledge.

So, no, my money should not be spent prosecuting Bush, or any other president that has ruled as advertised. That's to say, we all knew they were spouting shit while campaigning, so why should we expect anything more than a shitty presidency? People, open your eyes and see that we've accepted our powerless position as an inevitable end when concerning things greater than ourselves, and polls as narrowly honed as this one further our path towards a mediocre, easily contained existence when seen in a global light.

Look out for yourself. Stop worrying about people in positions that you don't and never will have an effect over. That means the victims of political war crimes. You're out of your element.

[Fash]

Our soldiers are always getting tortured. This isn't anything new. It's forever, in both directions of time. Want to help your country? Stop fucking talking about it, publicizing it, making a big deal out of it. Let it exist in a back room somewhere, a limited tool in the arsenal, that no one ever hears about.

Let's put some sort of new legislation in place, make a big show of saying we won't torture, and then keep your big fucking trap shut from now on.

[Zaelath]

I wouldn't have such a problem with torture, rendition, or whatever else you want to call it if it wasn't known to be a source of more useless intelligence than a magic 8-ball.

The *only* thing it's been proven to achieve was to get anyone at all to admit to any crime you want them to given enough time.

Oh and BTW, you don't spend American tax dollars to prosecute war crimes, Leo; ya jackass

[Bubba Grizz]

I have a hard enough time speaking for myself much less the rest of the world. I have no idea what the rest of the world is really thinking. The rest of the world is more than the media.

[Fash]

I wouldn't have such a problem with torture, rendition, or whatever else you want to call it if it wasn't known to be a source of more useless intelligence than a magic 8-ball.

If that were true, no one would do it. A couple high-profile incidents do not a generalization make.

[Leonaerd]

[Xyun]

Look out for yourself. Stop worrying about people in positions that you don't and never will have an effect over. That means the victims of political war crimes. You're out of your element.

My father was a victim of a political war crime you piece of shit.

[Boogahz]

Look out for yourself. Stop worrying about people in positions that you don't and never will have an effect over. That means the victims of political war crimes. You're out of your element.

My father was a victim of a political war crime you piece of shit.

I had been trying to figure out if he was implying something other than that before, and it was way too much of a stretch to make that work. I am guessing he forgot/never knew that part of your entry into the US and eventual citizenship.

[Leonaerd]

I didn't know. I'm sorry.

[Fairweather Pure]

The fact that they were not challanged in any real way while doing these things in office gives them a free pass afterward. Prosecuting the Bush administration now would do more harm than good to our country.

[cadalano]

should, but won't.

"just let it continue and ignore it" - i will vouch for this. i've had great success in dealing with the giant octopus in my kitchen by utilizing this method

"torture exists to keep us safe" - i'm not sure whether this falls under "ignorance" or "the illusion of knowledge". can you help me out, professor?

"our enemies do it, so we'll do it" - hold this country to a higher moral standard than that of our enemies

[Leonaerd]

should, but won't.

Do.

"torture exists to keep us safe" - i'm not sure whether this falls under "ignorance" or "the illusion of knowledge". can you help me out

Intelligence gained by successful interrogations saves lives.

professor

Why?

"our enemies do it, so we'll do it" - hold this country to a higher moral standard than that of our enemies

I do. Morals and war tactics don't mesh well, though. Besides, my morals tell me that somebody preparing to terrorize my country is worth squeezing information out of. Is your hatred towards torture directed at its use in general, or its use on innocent (or, alternatively, all) people?

[cadalano]

Intelligence gained by successful interrogations saves lives.

interrogations and torture are not the same thing. torture works sometimes, sometimes it does not. sometimes you get good intelligence, sometimes you get bad intelligence. whether you torture or not- definitively claiming that any result is guaranteed, or even likely, is impossible to know for a fact.

its irrelevant- i don't care what the results are. the question is the price our society pays for the "intelligence". we've done worse things in our history for a little bit of perceived safety which has since been condemned. this too will be condemned by our society one day, but, in the midst of the times we're in, there's too many fearful people like you right now for that to be possible.

I do. Morals and war tactics don't mesh well, though. Besides, my morals tell me that somebody preparing to terrorize my country is worth squeezing information out of.

you're listening to your fear and ignoring human morality. this is why terrorism works.

Is your hatred towards torture directed at its use in general, or its use on innocent (or, alternatively, all) people?

we should never torture a human being, especially because someone frightened us into thinking it is justified. americans are better than that.

[Leonaerd]

this too will be condemned by our society one day, but there's too many people like you right now for that to be possible.

This assumes there's a society left to protect, post terrorist attacks. Catch 22. In more realistic terms, it's impossible to know what a society will approve of, or even what measure of influence a society's approval will have.

you're listening to your fear and ignoring human morality. this is why terrorism works.

The only power I have over a supposed terrorist is channeled vicariously through my government via torture. I'm very unfearful of bombings, largely because of torture. Terrorism works better when it's unbridled. You're trusting too much in the morals of the infidel. Human morality is not a trump card that usurps a feeling of safety.

we should never torture a human being, especially because someone frightened us into thinking it is justified. americans are better than that.

Truly, Americans are as bad, possibly worse. Uhh, war in Iraq, unhindered debt spending, broad political corruption. Not to mention genuine american laziness.

[Kaldaur]

Please go away again.

[Avestan]

It is pretty clear to me that the Bush administration is guilty of war crimes. They have so much as admitted that they have tortured people, believing that they had the moral authority for the action. In my opinion, not prosecuting the crimes sets a tremendously horrible precedent that will, among other consequences, put American soldiers who get captured in the future in danger of being tortured. Other consequences include Bush being prosecuted by courts outside of the U.S., whereby regardless of our recognition of such proceedings, the rest of the world will be infuriated. And of course, future administrations will believe they too can easily get away with war crimes as well, and we slide down a slippery slope. Also, no man in this country should be above the law.

These are just a few of the many many reasons I believe prosecutions are warranted. But I believe I'm in the minority and most people are too apathetic to care enough, or are just against it for other reasons. I am pretty curious about why anyone would be against pursuing justice. Please explain your vote, especially if you voted no.

I am not apathetic, I just think it is a ridiculous question. No, he did not commit war crimes. War crimes are when you find mass graves of innocent people, not when you waterboard people who are almost assuredly not innocent and operate outside the bounds of any recognized governing body. I am not sure I believe that torture is really that effective, but if the people whose job it is to get information believe that it is, I am willing to accept that. If it is effective, I think it will continue, no matter what you try to do to stop it. If it is effective, I don't think I would want it to stop.

[Wulfran]

I'm not a believer in torture for information: drugs and psych methods are more reliable from everything I've ever seen written/discussed on this subject but this turns into a complicated issue on several fronts.

- how you define torture (i.e. the waterboarding issue)
- whose legal standard you follow (because of varying definitions of torture among differing countries and the US does not recognize the authority/jurisdiction of the world court)

And of course what do you hope to gain by carrying through with prosecutions if they are found to be warranted? There's an international relations payoff in this because of the unpopularity of Bush and Co. but at the same time there is also a bear trap in it sets a precedent for other cases based on other actions taken by past and future US administrations ranging from actions taken by previous administrations possibly going back against a host of other countries like Korea,Vietnam and Cuba or involving things like the Iran-Contra scam. Also it will serve to further seperate the political and ideological divides that plague the US already, divisions that show up in the bitterly divided partisanship that exhibits itself all too frequently in the daily political grind.

So in the end is it in the best interest of the American people?

[Winnow]

As the World Police, the United States should hold special powers and be trusted to torture with discretion. If China was the World Police, they'd torture many more people than United State's has strapped electrodes to. (they already do)

The United States should be better...and we are. We torture much less than other torturing countries. And don't give me some story about Denmark or some other non factor country not torturing people...why would they? They are too busy living their fat Western Lifestyles while complaining about Americans that keep the world safe in order for that to happen.

This isn't your daddy's America. That ended with the fucking loon Middle Eastern fanatics deciding they were going to go apeshit and start killing Americans (and the rest of the mooching, complaining Western World's citizens) in an attempt to force their, completely fucked up, female slave society on the rest of the world.

It's decision time. Do you want a semblance of democracy, championed by the United States, or do you want a completely fucked up religious world where women have zero rights and smart people are killed or forced to worship what's taught in the Khoran? If you choose the first option, a little torturing is necessary. If you choose option B, just let things quickly go down the shitter and you'll be praising Alla, singing Republic of China songs of glory, or be sold into prostitution by one of the Russian mobs.

[Leonaerd]

Please go away again.

Contribute, bitch.

[Zaelath]

As the World Police, the United States should hold special powers and be trusted to torture with discretion. If China was the World Police, they'd torture many more people than United State's has strapped electrodes to. (they already do)

The United States should be better...and we are. We torture much less than other torturing countries. And don't give me some story about Denmark or some other non factor country not torturing people...why would they? They are too busy living their fat Western Lifestyles while complaining about Americans that keep the world safe in order for that to happen.

This isn't your daddy's America. That ended with the fucking loon Middle Eastern fanatics deciding they were going to go apeshit and start killing Americans (and the rest of the mooching, complaining Western World's citizens) in an attempt to force their, completely fucked up, female slave society on the rest of the world.

It's decision time. Do you want a semblance of democracy, championed by the United States, or do you want a completely fucked up religious world where women have zero rights and smart people are killed or forced to worship what's taught in the Khoran? If you choose the first option, a little torturing is necessary. If you choose option B, just let things quickly go down the shitter and you'll be praising Alla, singing Republic of China songs of glory, or be sold into prostitution by one of the Russian mobs.

Just for the record, you realise Iraq was one of the most progressive nations in the middle east as far as women's rights, yes?

[Winnow]

Just for the record, you realise Iraq was one of the most progressive nations in the middle east as far as women's rights, yes?

You've got to be fucking kidding me:

Fact Sheet
Office of International Women's Issues
Washington, DC
March 20, 2003

Iraqi Women Under Saddam's Regime: A Population Silenced

Situation for Women in Saddam's Iraq

In 1979, immediately upon coming to power, Saddam Hussein silenced all political opposition in Iraq and converted his one-party state into a cult of personality. Since then, his regime has systematically executed, tortured, imprisoned, raped, terrorized, and repressed the Iraqi people. Iraq is a nation rich in culture, with a long history of intellectual and scientific achievement, especially among its women. However, Saddam Hussein's brutal regime has silenced the voices of Iraq's women, along with its men, through violence and intimidation.

In Iraq under Saddam, if you are a woman, you could face:

Beheading.

Under the pretext of fighting prostitution, units of "Fedayeen Saddam," the paramilitary organization led by Uday Hussein, Saddam's eldest son, have beheaded in public more than 200 women throughout the country, dumping their severed heads at their families' doorsteps. Many families have been required to display the victim's head on their outside fences for several days. These barbaric acts were carried out in the total absence of any proper judicial procedures and many of the victims were not engaged in prostitution, but were targeted for political reasons. For example, Najat Mohammad Haydar, an obstetrician in Baghdad, was beheaded after criticizing the corruption within health services. (Amnesty International Report, Iraq: Systematic Torture of Political Prisoners, August 2001; Iraqi Women's League in Damascus, Syria)

Rape.

The Iraqi Government uses rape and sexual assault of women to achieve the following goals: to extract information and forced confessions from detained family members; to intimidate Iraqi oppositionists by sending videotapes showing the rape of female family members; and to blackmail Iraqi men into future cooperation with the regime. Some Iraqi authorities even carry personnel cards identifying their official "activity" as the "violation of women's honor." (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; Iraq Research and Documentation Project, Harvard University)

Torture.

The Iraqi Government routinely tortures and kills female dissidents and the female relatives of Iraqi oppositionists and defectors. Victims include Safiyah Hassan, the mother of two Iraqi defectors, who was killed after publicly criticizing the Iraqi Government for killing her sons after their return to Iraq. Women in Saddam's jails are subjected to the following forms of torture: brutal beatings, systematic rape, electrical shocks, and branding. (U.S. Department of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices-2001, March 2002; U.S. Department of State, Iraq: A Population Silenced, December 2002)

Murder.

In 1990, Saddam Hussein introduced Article 111 into the Iraqi Penal Code in a calculated effort to strengthen tribal support for his regime. This law exempts men who kill their female relatives in defense of their family's honor from prosecution and punishment. The UN Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women reported that more than 4,000 women have been victims of so-called "honor killings" since Article 111 went into effect. (UN Commission on Human Rights, Report of the Special Rapporteur on Violence Against Women, January 2002)

[Zaelath]

Mmmhmm, OR you could read the second google hit for "iraqi women under saddam"

Iraqi Women under Saddam
A Report by CODEPINK: Women for Peace and Global Exchange

Monday 24 April 2006 by Marjorie P. LASKY
From 1958 to the 1990s Iraq provided relatively more rights and freedom for women and girls than most of its neighbors. Created in the 1920s and, as a Islamic state, initially adhering to interpretations of Shari’a, Iraq became a republic in 1958. At that point the govern¬ment legislated power away from the Shari’a courts over many aspects of women’s lives.

Even after Saddam Hussein became president in 1979, at war with Iran and unsparing with political repression, women’s access to education and to waged labor continued to grow — mainly because the expanding economy increasingly demanded their labor. Throughout, however, women’s legal rights and social and economic position teetered in an uneasy relationship with tradition: the overarching importance of the traditional patriarchal family, reli¬gious ideologies, and norms of family “honor” and rep¬utation. As the conflict with Iran wore on, these tradi¬tional ideas regained some lost ground; Hussein looked for allies among conservative Sunni religious groups as well as tribal leaders, and women’s rights and freedoms began to contract. This trend gathered momentum during the 13 years of United Nations’ sanctions.

In 1959 Iraq broke somewhat from Shari’a by introduc¬ing a Personal Status Law (ILPS) that granted equal inheritance and divorce rights, relegated divorce, inher¬itance and marriage to civil, instead of religious, courts, and provided for child support. Shari’a was still allowed to adjudicate cases that the ILPS did not cover, and polygamy was permitted under certain circumstances.

In 1968, the newly controlling Ba’ath party harnessed female labor in the service of Iraq’s flourishing economy. Spurred by the West’s thirst for oil, Iraq’s burgeoning economy after the nationalization of the oil industry in 1972 created labor shortages that women were encour¬aged to fill. The carrot was a host of labor and employ¬ment laws, including gender equity in education, civil service jobs, equal pay for equal work, maternity bene¬fits, and freedom from workplace harassment. The exo¬dus of men to fight the Iran¬Iraq war (1980¬88) created yet more demand for female workers. Women took ever more positions in the workforce, particularly in civil service and in formerly male¬dominated professions, such as oil¬project designers, construction supervisors, scientists, engineers, doctors, and accountants. However, in the last years of the war, a backlash against women entering the work force arose—a movement which grew significantly when men came home from the war in 1988 to a faltering economy.

Not surprisingly, patriarchal and conservative values of most Iraqis did not automatically change in tandem with the transformations in legislation and the econo¬my. Women’s access to all rights still depended greatly on social class, religion, and rural/urban residency. For example, religious and patriarchal values weighed more heavily on rural and impoverished women than on their more secular, educated, and urban peers. As we explore Iraqi women’s fate over time, we will see how tenacious are the urban¬rural split, secular¬religious conflicts, and class differences.

Still, the Ba’ath party’s program, which sought to cement loyalty to the state, penetrated as well into edu¬cation, politics, and society. In the early 1970s, the party established the General Federation of Iraqi Women (GFIW) to implement state policy. The only women’s organization allowed, the GFIW operated pri¬marily through female¬based community centers to offer educational, job¬training, and other social pro¬grams. It also communicated state propaganda. The government passed laws to encourage literacy for the entire population, female and male, between the ages of 6 and 45. Women were given the right to vote in 1980 and to be elected to the National Assembly and local governing bodies, although the number of female repre¬sentatives remained small. Around the same time, laws on divorce, polygamy, and inheritance still further expanded women’s rights.

Although a great deal of policy and law continued to women’s advantage when Saddam Hussein became presi¬dent, his voracious appetite for dictatorial power over the entire population could not but undermine women’s gains. Women, like men, were jailed, tortured, raped, and mur¬dered. To extract information from dissidents, suspected dissidents, and opposition members abroad, Hussein was fond of sending them video tapes showing their female rel¬atives raped by members of the secret police. The war with Iran subjected Iraqis not only to the dep¬rivations of war but also to gross human rights viola¬tions inflicted by their own government. Women were targets for rape and sex trafficking because of their rela¬tionship to male oppositionist activists; thousands of women, children and men were expelled because of their actual or alleged Iranian descent; tens of thousands of Kurds disappeared, and the Iraqi government used chemical weapons against thousands of Kurds.

By 1990 Hussein was courting support for his war¬weary regime from neighboring Islamic states and from religious and tribal leaders. Hussein’s public embrace of Islam’s moral authority changed many of the laws gov¬erning divorce, child custody, and inheritance rights so as to limit women’s rights and freedoms. Laws restrict¬ed women’s ability to travel abroad without a male rela¬tive and reintroduced single¬sex education in high school. The GFIW stopped promoting women’s rights to work and education and focused primarily on humanitarian aid and health care. Honor killings of women who were suspected of pre¬marital sex or vic¬tims of rape, thereby “dishonoring” the family name, dramatically increased after Hussein reduced the prison sentences of male perpetrators from 8 years to no more than 6 months—a punishment in any case rarely imposed. And the government’s brutalization of women contin¬ued. The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1991 and the sub¬sequent Gulf War ended with U.S. President George W. Bush urging the Kurds and Shi’a, whose religious activ¬ities were strictly regulated by the Ba’athists, to rise up against Hussein’s government. They did so—unsuccess¬fully. During and after the uprisings, government forces killed thousands of people, including women and chil¬dren, who were also allegedly used by government forces as “human shields.” By 2000, a militia founded by Hussein’s son, Uday, was beheading women in a cam¬paign against prostitution. According to the World Health Organization, prior to the 1991 Gulf War, Iraq’s health conditions and health system were among the best in the Middle East. The degradation of the system and the health of the popula¬tion began during the Iran¬Iraq war and seriously accel¬erated during the 13 years of United Nations sanctions that followed the 1991 war. Between 1991¬1997, the government could only supply 10¬15% of the country’s medical needs, material and human. The Oil¬for¬Food Program, instituted in 1997, allowed the Iraqi govern¬ment to sell oil and use the revenues to obtain humani¬tarian aid. But the health care system never really recovered, and women paid the price. Pregnant Iraqis had to rely heavily on emergency obstetric care, prena¬tal care all but disappeared, and skilled delivery person¬nel were scarcely available. No wonder that maternal mortality tripled. At the same time, increasing poverty and poor nutrition undermined all women’s health, as it did men’s. Approximately 60% of the population became dependent on rations handed out by the gov¬ernment and paid for by the oil¬for¬food program.

Widowed woman and women who had lost fathers, sons, or prospective husbands in the wars were especial¬ly impoverished. Women had difficulty finding paid work or could not afford to work as the state withdrew its free child¬care and transportation. The wages of women who still worked dropped precipitously, and many middle¬class women fell into poverty. Impoverishment forced families to keep their female children out of school, and illiteracy soared. Prostitution, domestic abuse, and divorce soared. Two wars and the economic migration of men had led to a gender imbalance, so that the number of marriages fell while polygamy, which had generally been confined to rural or less educated Iraqis, grew.

The deteriorating economy, social crises, and Hussein’s courtship of religious and tribal leaders were reflected in the government’s support of returning women to domesticity. A generation gap emerged between educat¬ed mothers and their less educated, more conservative, daughters. Young girls wearing the hijab became ever more noticeable on Iraqi streets, motivated by many fac¬tors, not least of which was an increased religiosity and changing cultural and moral values.

By 2003, then, the position of women in Iraq had wors¬ened, particularly for those who did not enjoy the priv¬ileges of class or Ba’athist affiliation or the benefits of the black market economy. Indeed, one might even have imagined that groups of women would welcome American “liberators,” and briefly, when Hussein was removed from power, that might have been true for many people. However, that moment passed quickly as everything that could have been done wrongly was indeed so wrongly done

I don't think anyone has denied that Saddam and his boys practiced some brutal tactics, but the average Iraqi woman was a fuckload better off than the average Afghani woman prior to Gulf War I at least when he used Shi'a style laws to try to buddy up this his neighbours.

[Kaldaur]

Please go away again.

Contribute, bitch.

You've pretty much taken care of anyone elses need to contribute. Why don't you zing off a one-liner about me being in my element? Or better yet, go away again.

[masteen]

If the economy wasn't in the shitter, I'd be all for tying those assholes up in court for a couple years. But given our current situation, I'm just going to take what pleasure I can from watching Obama take a big eraser to everything they did for the past 6.5 years.

I am currently imagining Cheney dressed up as the 60's TV show Penguin, chewing on a long cigarette holder, screaming "You may have foiled my plan, but you'll never catch me, BlackMan!" as he uses his umbrella to fly away. Next up is Dubya as the Riddler.

[Nick]

If Obama had any balls to back up his love of justice then of course it should happen. Bush and his cronies are guilty of the murder of 100000+ people, and it shows what a fucking retarded mess the USA has become that they aren't already on trial.

[Aslanna]

That's for the valuable insight on what's wrong with the good ole U S of A.

[Nick]

Or on what standards of basic justice should be for the 21st century, you intellectually underclassed fuckwit.

[Aslanna]

Underclassed in what company? Certainly not you. amirite??? DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!

[Animalor]

Won't it be hard to extradite Dick Cheney from Dubai?