Spring Training Poll - NL West

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 7, 2008, 12:13 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote:
Actually shitty offences would be the point... SF's being worse than Az's. Last 3 years mean jack squat as far as this year goes and anyone who watches knows that Lincecum is the more dominating and electric arm, that is why they pull him early... not like they are going to win anything this year anyways.

I'm not evening flaming here. That sounds like lame excuses to me.

Even this year head to head:

SAN FRANCISCO -- Brandon Webb enjoys matching up with other major league aces, especially when Arizona gets the win.

Webb struck out eight to pass 1,000 for his career and got the win in a matchup with fellow All-Star right-hander Tim Lincecum, leading the Diamondbacks to a 5-3 victory over the San Francisco Giants on Saturday night.

Lincecum allowed 7 hits while Webb allowed 4. I knew this "quality of team" shit would go whichever side the D'Backs weren't on depending on the point being made. Oh the D'Backs rock when discussing Webb's performance..oh they suck anytime else!

The D'Back offense is horrible. What are they? Last in HRs?...But Webb's won 16...no no wait, the D'Backs fucking rock on offense! That's he only reason he's managed 16 wins. The game he had a 5 run lead, allowing only 1 run over 8 innings, and his closer blew it for him...that's totally on Webb.

Webb's a sinkerball pitcher. He's not going to get the flashy K's. Does Greg Maddox suck because he didn't strike out batters in his prime?

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 7, 2008, 2:25 pm

Nope, we are talking pitchers and the quality of their stuff. I won't even bother with the stats showing the Dbacks offense to be simply poor compared to some other teams horrific stats (How do the Giants have 63 hr's in August).

Strikeout power pitchers like Lincecum and Randy Johnson always have a higher WHIP than sinkerballers and 12-3 is not so different from 16-4. Webb has pitched great this year but he is probably the 4th or 5th best in the NL this year (Haren taking that other spot)

Also the game you mentioned Lincecum was ahead 3-2 when both pitchers came out of the game(also struck out the side in the 7th for 13k's on the day), Walker got lit up per usual in the 8th and that got Webb the W

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 11, 2008, 1:15 am

.....aaaaaand Webb wins his 17th (17-4) of the year allowing only one run to score...but he sucks.

Webb has had the most wins all year and most wins in past three years, Cy Young award winner...but he sucks!)
D'Backs have lead or been tied for the division lead all year

...but they suck!

Waaaaa, but in another division they'd be....well on the Moon, a lot of fat people would feel good about their weight but they aren't on the moon now are they?

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 12, 2008, 12:46 am

Good news for Dodger fans, snakes pick up Dunn. Sure the guy hits HR's but he has like a .170 avg with RISP which is worse then even that lump of shit we gave 18m to. This move actually hurts Az as they have stayed in 1st with great pitching and some timely hitting throughout the lineup which will be hindered by Dunn

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 12, 2008, 12:53 am

Webb still needs 3 more wins before I lose my bet and LA is far from out of it. They just got Penny (so-so) back and Nomar is ready to go for the stretch and will take over at SS from Berroa (.200avg no power). We stumbled and gave up 2 games we should have won in SF but that is actually pretty expected when LA and SF play.

It will be an exciting race

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 12, 2008, 1:39 am

Don't like the Dunn pickup. He's possibly the worst fielder in the bigs and strikes out a lot. Not sure what management is thinking. We've got Justin Upton almost back from injury. He's a slugger and can field. Mark Reynolds at 3rd base is enough of a liability. Don't need more bad fielding.

He may be tied for the HR lead in the league but .233 isn't going to get it done, especially with a high strike out rate so he won't even get some sacrifice outs. I hope moving to a winning team motivates him a bit.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » August 12, 2008, 3:56 am

Winnow wrote:Don't like the Dunn pickup. He's possibly the worst fielder in the bigs and strikes out a lot. Not sure what management is thinking. We've got Justin Upton almost back from injury. He's a slugger and can field. Mark Reynolds at 3rd base is enough of a liability. Don't need more bad fielding.

Adam Dunn has a .966 Fielding percentage and 7 errors in 110 games this season. Upton has a .943 Fielding Pct and 9 errors in 81 games. I don't know the total chances Upton has had, but he's got more errors and played in fewer games. Fielding advantage to Dunn.

As for batting, Upton peaked at about the second week of the season. He's been on a steady decline to mediocrity since. He hasn't played in about a month, so if the D'Backs want to get to the post-season, then Dunn was a good move, especially since they lost out on Mark Texiera. He has a better slugging and OBP (.528 & .373) than Upton (.433 & .353).

I don't know where they're planning on putting Dunn, but he's been in LF this entire season. Upton plays RF. Conor Jackson has been in LF, so he'll likely replace him when Upton returns. I'm going to the game tomorrow, so I'll try to report if he's in the lineup. Looking forward to the match-up of Johnson vs. Jimenez.

Go Rockies! We got *cough* Livan Hernandez *cough* !(?) WTF?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 12, 2008, 12:33 pm

I love the rock-solid logic of post trading deadline trading frenzies.

Dunn....

Well, they needed the power, but lol @ 200 strikeouts/year.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 12, 2008, 12:35 pm

Dunn has less errors and better fielding because the ONLY balls he can get to are routine fly balls. He is also one of the worst clutch hitters I have ever witnessed....second maybe to A-rod or Crisco Jones (how is that working out for you Dodgers? hahahahahhahahahahhahah)

I think Dunn has had 2 sacrifice flies in 2 years.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » August 12, 2008, 1:32 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I think Dunn has had 2 sacrifice flies in 2 years.

He has 9 Sac Flies in during the past two seasons.

It's a win situation for the D'Backs. The way the deal was structured, if they don't sign Dunn after his contract expires at the end of the season they get a second round pick in the draft. Not bad considering the Reds are paying part of his remaining salary and they only had to give up 3 minor leaguers. Sure, Dunn is a K machine, averaging 170/season and leading the NL in Ks 3 of the last 5 seasons, but he provides run support which the D'Backs badly need. He's not Manny, but it seems like a decent acquisition on paper.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 12, 2008, 7:31 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: or Crisco Jones (how is that working out for you Dodgers? hahahahahhahahahahhahah)

I

Since Jones sucked so bad it got us Manny, so I guess overall it is a great thing that we got Jones. How is the season working out for you Braves? got a shot at the post season? hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 13, 2008, 2:01 am

I can see why its hard to catch the Phillies, they can almost beat the Dodgers

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 13, 2008, 2:42 am

Xyphir wrote:I'm going to the game tomorrow, so I'll try to report if he's in the lineup. Looking forward to the match-up of Johnson vs. Jimenez.

Get rained on at the game? Dunn looked pretty good his first game.

Grats on #294 for Randy Johnson. He's a crack up when he gets on base.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » August 13, 2008, 11:39 am

It rained a little, but they didn't stop play. I hung out in my seat until the sleet started to fall.

I was pretty unimpressed with Dunn defensively. I thought the ball that came his way in the second could have been caught, but he decided to trot and play the bounce off the wall. He walked twice but also struck out twice. Johnson pounded the zone and came out after about 90 pitches. Jimenez pitched well for the Rockies, but was undone by the lack of offense and good pitching by the D'Backs.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 13, 2008, 9:32 pm

Trek wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: or Crisco Jones (how is that working out for you Dodgers? hahahahahhahahahahhahah)

I

Since Jones sucked so bad it got us Manny, so I guess overall it is a great thing that we got Jones. How is the season working out for you Braves? got a shot at the post season? hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahah

We would be 5 games in back of the Dodgers with the entire starting day pitching staff on the DL. And our starting LF out....5 bullpen members out including 3 for the season. Yea....gonna miss the playoffs again although if we played in the NL Worst with you clowns we would probably still have a winning record.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 13, 2008, 9:38 pm

Right, just transfer the record right over as you would have the same schedule

.

Pathetic how the 'NL worst' has represented the NL 4 of the last 10 years with the so much better east and central have gone 3 each, you would think you could overcome the west more often if you where indeed better. I guess I would be bitter to if I rooted for Atl

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 14, 2008, 3:18 am

The NL Least almost beat the Dodgers again, I cant believe how crappy those team are in that division if the Phillies are the best you got.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 14, 2008, 7:55 pm

Drunk posting?

I'll let you and Kilmoll battle it out since I have a sense of humor when my teams suck.

If I got heated up about that, Heilman would have been the death of me this year.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 15, 2008, 1:36 am

Yet another win for LA against the East. Manny was 0-3 and they still won, I really dont want to hear about injuries since LA has 15+ mil on IR so thats really no excuse. We did get Nomar and Penny back so that will help out I hope.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 15, 2008, 4:22 am

Glad Haren was pitching today to get the D'Backs a win. Webb pitches tomorrow!

Dunn came through today. Hope he keeps it up.

Tight race in the most entertaining division in baseball.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 15, 2008, 9:20 am

Oh wow! 15 whole million? Try 60,785,000 on the DL for the entire month of July. We have 30+ mil out until somewhere in the middle of 2009. I could drop another 10 million in there but I did not even count Hampton since he is actually back. Oh...and we STILL are 16-11 against the NL Worst. You ought to be real thankful they don;t have an East team in there with your clownboat of a division! Records of the Beast vs the Worst:

Mets 20-15
Phillies 14-11
Marlins 17-13
Braves 16-11
Nats 6-17

Mawafu · Post by **Mawafu** » August 15, 2008, 12:02 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:You ought to be real thankful they don;t have an East team in there with your clownboat of a division!

Wish there was an East team in our division. Dodgers are 16-11 against your "Beast".

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 15, 2008, 1:18 pm

Mets can't seem to beat the Padres! This shit happens every year I think.

I'll take games vs. LA and AZ any day. LA is MUCH improved now, but so is AZ. The west is definately more compelling now, but still clownboatish. You guys are coming along though!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 16, 2008, 12:12 am

Webb picks up win #18 (next best pitcher has 16 wins)

D'Backs 12
Astros 2

Wasn't Houston on an 8 game winning streak and 16-4 their last 20? Pwnd!

PS, but Webb sucks! He's just been getting lucky or something...FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS.

you baseball "experts" crack me up.

Lets see...Webb's last few games:

Tonight: Won 12-2
Aug 10: Won 6-1
Aug 5: Won 3-1
Jul 31: Won 2-1
----------
Jul 26: Won 5-3 (he won this game but since he gave up 3 runs, it's not good enough for you people. He should have allowed a negative number of runs to be any good)

Guess he sucked tonight because he gave up 2 runs? According to you "experts" he's ready for the minors because of that.

LA and D'backs keep playing like this, the 2nd place team might creep up on the wildcard race. They're 7 behind the brewers for that!

Think Webb can go at least 2-6 his last eight starts?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 16, 2008, 1:57 am

Oh calm down desert boy.

I don't think anyone has ever knocked Webb here.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » August 16, 2008, 2:13 am

your signature graphic is so fucking stupid, i feel compelled to respond with my equally retarded/relevant signature graphic every time you post.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 16, 2008, 3:22 am

Canelek wrote: I don't think anyone has ever knocked Webb here.

"those people" have done just that throughout this thread by not acknowledging Webb's greatness and throwing up other lesser pitchers' names while practicing a pseudo science formula of baseball statistical chaos theory to try and prop those pitchers up.

some common excuses:

shitty team: other pitcher's team even shittier! You'd think the D'Backs were 10X champion offensive juggernauts when the other pitchers are being discussed (and then somehow they forget the D'Back opponents scored more runs than the D'Backs last year...so convenient!)

most wins past three years: what does that matter? wins don't make a pitcher great! (especially with that record setting low run support...oops forgot about that? I just mentioned it a few lines up!)

2nd most innings pitched over past 4 years: who cares? he has the most wins because the bullpen...er cough...um, let me think of another excuse after I look up his complete game and 8 inning pitched game totals.

No way Webb wins 20 games, he just got off to a lucky start...like the last two full lucky seasons!

Brandon Webb allowed just two runs in eight innings to pick up his 18th win of the season on Friday.
Webb was once again dominant, allowing just four hits, striking out six and issuing just one walk. The outing lowers his ERA to 2.85, and with two contests against San Diego looming, Webb could have 20 wins by the end of August.

Just saying he's pretty good.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 16, 2008, 4:15 am

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Oh wow! 15 whole million? Try 60,785,000 on the DL for the entire month of July. We have 30+ mil out until somewhere in the middle of 2009. I could drop another 10 million in there but I did not even count Hampton since he is actually back. Oh...and we STILL are 16-11 against the NL Worst. You ought to be real thankful they don;t have an East team in there with your clownboat of a division! Records of the Beast vs the Worst:

Mets 20-15
Phillies 14-11
Marlins 17-13
Braves 16-11
Nats 6-17

Actually according to ESPN Atl has 44Mil on the DL and LA has 59mil on the DL so I guess you really got me with that one, LA is also like 15-8 against your NL Least....got me again with that one to, your on a roll

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 16, 2008, 10:52 am

Fash wrote:your signature graphic is so fucking stupid, i feel compelled to respond with my equally retarded/relevant signature graphic every time you post.

K.

Last I checked Nike has not destroyed an ecosystem....yet.

And really. Wrong forum asshat.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 16, 2008, 2:19 pm

Hey! get your politiks out of our baseball war!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 16, 2008, 4:39 pm

Canelek wrote: I'll take games vs. LA and AZ any day. LA is MUCH improved now, but so is AZ. The west is definately more compelling now, but still clownboatish. You guys are coming along though!

Since LA was 3-4 vs the Mets without Manny, half our rotation, a SS, closer ...ect. I think LA will be a little better next time around

Also, Webb has been very dominant the last 6-7 starts so I am probably out the 200 I would have won. This is his best year to date, I can still hope for injury!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 17, 2008, 1:28 am

Manny certainly adds an extra element. I would not complain to have him on the roster. I doubt anyone in LA is! The guy is a douchebag but a hitting machine. And that is what counts. LA would be smart to retain him, despite his pricetag.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 17, 2008, 5:30 am

Whew. It's about time the Dodgers lost a game. The D'Backs have been blowing away Houston but hadn't pulled farther away from LA.

2 grand slams tonight, and they had a chance for a 3rd grand slam.

Dunn's been looking great. What I didn't realize was his on base percentage. Dude's got a seriously good eye at the plate. He may strike out whiffing but he doesn't swing at balls. He always seems to work his way back into the count. We walks a lot. Tonight he was 2 for 2 along with getting walked 3 times. His average has climbed from .233 to .238 so far since joining the D'Backs. Keep it up! His on base percentage is .380 and slugging .524. Not bad.

Randy Johnson's up tomorrow. They squeezed in Petit tonight between Haren/Webb and Jouhnson with good results (11-5 win)

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 17, 2008, 5:52 pm

Yeah, Dunns been doing better then I had hoped so far. He has always had a good eye. LA has a chance to move back into a tie with the Az loss, this was a very good stretch for LA as they had many tough games and came through.

One thing of note, the Az announcers are douchebags, my god I dont normally mute announcers of other clubs but I cant stand listening to those guys

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 17, 2008, 8:58 pm

LA takes 2 of 3 from another one of those 'better' teams.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 2:07 am

Wow Kilmol looks like atl would be 4th in the West

They are greatness

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 18, 2008, 10:30 am

Atl pitched in the towel when Hudson went on the DL. When 4 of your starting 5 pitchers are all having Tommy John surgery in the same season, it is a lost season. Don't get all upset because your division is habitually weak.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 1:05 pm

You keep saying the West is weak but overlook the fact that the West has represented the NL more then the Central or East in the last 10 years......how does this make it weak? I think your just grasping at straws without actually looking at what your typing. Continue to post oppinions and back them up with more oppinions and shout 'BEAT LA BEAT LA' everytime you watch Sportscenter hoping to god LA or another West team doesnt prove you wrong again.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 18, 2008, 1:11 pm

Dodger Dogs suck!

But Vin Scully is own.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 18, 2008, 2:26 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Atl pitched in the towel when Hudson went on the DL. When 4 of your starting 5 pitchers are all having Tommy John surgery in the same season, it is a lost season. Don't get all upset because your division is habitually weak.

I'd have to agree. If you lose that many starting pitchers and the team isn't the Yankees (coming from a Yankee fan, spend money hand over fist because their franchise is one of the few that has a necessity to win) you can't really comment on Atl's performance or decisions. I have to say that I am enjoying them losing, but that's because they've won a lot for so long it's good to see them taken down a peg. Just like seeing Newcastle (althought not a small club by any means) draw w/ Man Utd at Trafford.

Starting pitching is everything.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 18, 2008, 2:43 pm

ATL is washed up. Look for a decade of .500 or below teams.

NL West is on the rise. Trek mentioned they're already representing (and winning World Series: D'Backs 2001) but will only get better. There were two NL West teams in the NL Championship game last year.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 18, 2008, 2:57 pm

Washed up? Depends on which way the owners go. They have gone through a series of bullshit from ownership that hurt them badly (IE: having the incompetent New York based Time Warner calling the shots) and we will have to see where this new ownership takes them. They did make several moves to go to youth and have some very promising kids...including pitching coming up. If ownership stands pat on spending, they will have something like $45 million in cash freed up to make a run at some players to fill holes.

I would put my money down that says Glavine retires, Hampton signs with another team, Smoltz ends up in the broadcast booth, and Kotsay and his back are turned loose. That would leave the starting pitching in shambles, but a bullpen that should be fairly good with Gonzalez returning to close, Moylan and Soriano back from arm problems. You would have a good infield returning with Kotchman, Johnson, Escobar, Jones, McCann...and an outfield with some young talent that may need one big bat to be signed.

I could see them adding a big hitting LF and riding Jordan Scahfer in CF and Francouer in RF (sans a fucking powerlifting weight regimen) and still being able to add 2 starting pitchers on the $45 mil they have. I am betting they run for Sabathia personally...and they could well go deep with Sabathia, Jurrjens, Campillo, Morton, pitchertobenamedlater.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 4:04 pm

So if other teams have key injuries that keep them down during the year they suck because they are in the West...yeah I get it. I guess LA loosing their 'ace' Penny, Schmidt not ever getting healthy Kuroda missing a few stars, Bills missing a couple starts having 4 guys from the pen on the DL, oh their closer Saito is out, SS Furcal out, started the year with a 3b from AA because ALL the other 3b in the franchise where on the DL, not to mention Jones being a bag o shit and now on the DL as well....make LA a sucky ass team? I mean get real, talk shit all you want but even with 1/3 of their team on the DL all year they still hang in there and are beating all the 'better' clubs. These guys have a bit more heart then they are supposed to I guess.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 4:43 pm

Hey, lets look at some more NL West suckage for the last 10 years.....

MVP's -

West = 5

East = 3

Central = 2

CY's -

West = 7

Central = 2

East = 1

I guess if I was from another division I would have West envy as well, with that kind of dominance. Keep telling yourself the West sucks just because they beat each other up all year.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 4:45 pm

Canelek wrote:Dodger Dogs suck!
But Vin Scully is own.

Dodger Dogs are ok, no nearly for the price tho

and dont even think about bashing Vin, he is awesome

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 18, 2008, 6:09 pm

Trek wrote:
CY's -

West = 7

Central = 2

East = 1

AZ has 5 Cy Young awards out of the last ten years and that easily could be 6 out of 10 if Webb gets another one this year.

As for pitching overall, the other two "best' pitchers are also in the NL West as well: (Haren & Webb), Peavy and Lincecum

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 18, 2008, 6:40 pm

Never would bash Vinny. I always enjoyed listening to his broadcasts. The guy is one of the best all time, and that is spanning all sports. I put him up there with Chick Hearn.

Dodger dogs though... man, maybe it was just all the hype, but I seriously did not enjoy. This was three attemts, including their "grilled" kind. No good man!

In other news, I heard that Jeff Kent felt that Vin should stop talking so much. Probably not the best idea...

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 7:01 pm

Kent is a pud, he is mad because Vin mentioned how much better the Dodgers are hitting since Manny arrived. Its not a fact that can be argued, Kent hitting 3rd in front of Manny is batting something like .400 instead of .260. I am not alone when I say Kent is the one that talks to much, always has. I dont see how anyone can argue the surge in power and avg LA has in the last 15 games, there isnt a time in the last 2 seasons LA has hit like this. Kent is just mad he isnt getting the attention, he is gone after this year......until then I hope he keeps kicking ass!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 7:10 pm

The NL West is loaded with pitching, which adds to the illusion that the West sucks. Its hard to get a consistent win streak going in playing against Webb, Haren, Cook, Lincecum, Johnson, Penny, Billingsly, Peavy, Young, Cain, Jimenez...ect. Im not saying the other divisions dont have good SP's, but the West is usually pretty loaded with them on every team. Its hard to sweep a team in the West even if they suck because one of those guys will usually throw a gem.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 18, 2008, 10:15 pm

Speaking of to many SP's on the DL, looks like LA grabbed Maddux back from the Pads to address it. Not a bad pickup really, we need someone that can give us 5-7 decent innings right now. Hopefully it will be enough to get us to the playoffs

Who will win the NL West?