Mission Accomplished (For real this time!)

[Xouqoa]

BAGHDAD (AP) — The United States is now winning the war that two years ago seemed lost.

Limited, sometimes sharp fighting and periodic terrorist bombings in Iraq are likely to continue, possibly for years. But the Iraqi government and the U.S. now are able to shift focus from mainly combat to mainly building the fragile beginnings of peace — a transition that many found almost unthinkable as recently as one year ago.

Despite the occasional bursts of violence, Iraq has reached the point where the insurgents, who once controlled whole cities, no longer have the clout to threaten the viability of the central government.

That does not mean the war has ended or that U.S. troops have no role in Iraq. It means the combat phase finally is ending, years past the time when President Bush optimistically declared it had. The new phase focuses on training the Iraqi army and police, restraining the flow of illicit weaponry from Iran, supporting closer links between Baghdad and local governments, pushing the integration of former insurgents into legitimate government jobs and assisting in rebuilding the economy.

Scattered battles go on, especially against al-Qaida holdouts north of Baghdad. But organized resistance, with the steady drumbeat of bombings, kidnappings, assassinations and ambushes that once rocked the capital daily, has all but ceased.

This amounts to more than a lull in the violence. It reflects a fundamental shift in the outlook for the Sunni minority, which held power under Saddam Hussein. They launched the insurgency five years ago. They now are either sidelined or have switched sides to cooperate with the Americans in return for money and political support.

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told The Associated Press this past week there are early indications that senior leaders of al-Qaida may be considering shifting their main focus from Iraq to the war in Afghanistan.

Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, told the AP on Thursday that the insurgency as a whole has withered to the point where it is no longer a threat to Iraq's future.

"Very clearly, the insurgency is in no position to overthrow the government or, really, even to challenge it," Crocker said. "It's actually almost in no position to try to confront it. By and large, what's left of the insurgency is just trying to hang on."

Shiite militias, notably the Mahdi Army of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, have lost their power bases in Baghdad, Basra and other major cities. An important step was the routing of Shiite extremists in the Sadr City slums of eastern Baghdad this spring — now a quiet though not fully secure district.

Al-Sadr and top lieutenants are now in Iran. Still talking of a comeback, they are facing major obstacles, including a loss of support among a Shiite population weary of war and no longer as terrified of Sunni extremists as they were two years ago.

Despite the favorable signs, U.S. commanders are leery of proclaiming victory or promising that the calm will last.

The premature declaration by the Bush administration of "Mission Accomplished" in May 2003 convinced commanders that the best public relations strategy is to promise little, and couple all good news with the warning that "security is fragile" and that the improvements, while encouraging, are "not irreversible."

Iraq still faces a mountain of problems: sectarian rivalries, power struggles within the Sunni and Shiite communities, Kurdish-Arab tensions, corruption. Anyone could rekindle widespread fighting.

But the underlying dynamics in Iraqi society that blew up the U.S. military's hopes for an early exit, shortly after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003, have changed in important ways in recent months.

Systematic sectarian killings have all but ended in the capital, in large part because of tight security and a strategy of walling off neighborhoods purged of minorities in 2006.

That has helped establish a sense of normalcy in the streets of the capital. People are expressing a new confidence in their own security forces, which in turn are exhibiting a newfound assertiveness with the insurgency largely in retreat.

Statistics show violence at a four-year low. The monthly American death toll appears to be at its lowest of the war — four killed in action so far this month as of Friday, compared with 66 in July a year ago. From a daily average of 160 insurgent attacks in July 2007, the average has plummeted to about two dozen a day this month. On Wednesday the nationwide total was 13.

Beyond that, there is something in the air in Iraq this summer.

In Baghdad, parks are filled every weekend with families playing and picnicking with their children. That was unthinkable only a year ago, when the first, barely visible signs of a turnaround emerged.

Now a moment has arrived for the Iraqis to try to take those positive threads and weave them into a lasting stability.

The questions facing both Americans and Iraqis are: What kinds of help will the country need from the U.S. military, and for how long? The questions will take on greater importance as the U.S. presidential election nears, with one candidate pledging a troop withdrawal and the other insisting on staying.

Iraqi authorities have grown dependent on the U.S. military after more than five years of war. While they are aiming for full sovereignty with no foreign troops on their soil, they do not want to rush. In a similar sense, the Americans fear that after losing more than 4,100 troops, the sacrifice could be squandered.

U.S. commanders say a substantial American military presence will be needed beyond 2009. But judging from the security gains that have been sustained over the first half of this year — as the Pentagon withdrew five Army brigades sent as reinforcements in 2007 — the remaining troops could be used as peacekeepers more than combatants.

As a measure of the transitioning U.S. role, Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond says that when he took command of American forces in the Baghdad area about seven months ago he was spending 80 percent of his time working on combat-related matters and about 20 percent on what the military calls "nonkinetic" issues, such as supporting the development of Iraqi government institutions and humanitarian aid.

Now Hammond estimates those percentage have been almost reversed. For several hours one recent day, for example, Hammond consulted on water projects with a Sunni sheik in the Radwaniyah area of southwest Baghdad, then spent time with an Iraqi physician/entrepreneur in the Dora district of southern Baghdad — an area, now calm, that in early 2007 was one of the capital's most violent zones.

"We're getting close to something that looks like an end to mass violence in Iraq," says Stephen Biddle, an analyst at the Council of Foreign Relations who has advised Petraeus on war strategy. Biddle is not ready to say it's over, but he sees the U.S. mission shifting from fighting the insurgents to keeping the peace.

Although Sunni and Shiite extremists are still around, they have surrendered the initiative and have lost the support of many ordinary Iraqis. That can be traced to an altered U.S. approach to countering the insurgency — a Petraeus-driven move to take more U.S. troops off their big bases and put them in Baghdad neighborhoods where they mixed with ordinary Iraqis and built a new level of trust.

Army Col. Tom James, a brigade commander who is on his third combat tour in Iraq, explains the new calm this way:

"We've put out the forest fire. Now we're dealing with pop-up fires."

It's not the end of fighting. It looks like the beginning of a perilous peace.

Maj. Gen. Ali Hadi Hussein al-Yaseri, the chief of patrol police in the capital, sees the changes.

"Even eight months ago, Baghdad was not today's Baghdad," he says.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Yep. It's great news. But, things could get bad again. Time will tell how sucessful this venture was or not.

[Winnow]

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told The Associated Press this past week there are early indications that senior leaders of al-Qaida may be considering shifting their main focus from Iraq to the war in Afghanistan.

Let them gather there and then hit them hard.

Afghan women should be able to go to school and be free to wear whatever they want.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, told The Associated Press this past week there are early indications that senior leaders of al-Qaida may be considering shifting their main focus from Iraq to the war in Afghanistan.

Let them gather there and then hit them hard.

Afghan women should be able to go to school and be free to wear whatever they want.

Yeah, but only if you can negotiate it.

[Zaelath]

I refer you to my sig.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I refer you to my sig.

Yes, please hold on to every mistep and continue to harp on it forever. You help prove my point about perception.

[Kaldaur]

5 years later is a misstep?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

5 years later is a misstep?

Dude. You never made a mistake? You never underestimated anything? Seriously, how did people become so damned heartless and unforgiving? Yet, at the same time so many of these same people are blown away by the revelations of one criminal scum P Diddy and his walking. It's really quite astounding.

[Spang]

I don't think any of us made a mistake while running an entire country.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I don't think any of us made a mistake while running an entire country.

[Kaldaur]

Sure I have. One day the sky looked clear so I thought I didn't need an umbrella. Then it started raining when I was walking around outside. Right after that, four thousand troops died. Whoops!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Sure I have. One day the sky looked clear so I thought I didn't need an umbrella. Then it started raining when I was walking around outside. Right after that, four thousand troops died. Whoops!

Everyone has their lot in life. Each job is different. His "mistakes" will carry greater consequence. There is no man/woman who is perfect.

Not to mention, him saying mission accomplished didn't cause death. It was an incorrect statement. Turns out that phase of the war was over, but a new, more dangerous phase had yet to begun. It took some years, but we learned how to better fight such a battle. This was is a tribute to the American spirit and an example to all how not to give up at the first sign of adversity. It's unfortunate the media is bought and paid for by a political party and chose not to focus on the greatness of our spirit. It's all about perception. This could have been a very different 8 years. So many freedoms and futures are ahead for the people of the middle east because of our sacrifice. Time will tell a much different story. It's a shame we have such a corrupt media and such a power hungry political party structure that will do anythign it takes to maintain and gain power.

[Fairweather Pure]

You are the greatest Bush apologist I have ever heard of in my life. It would be comical if it wasn't so eerie.

[Truant]

You are the greatest Bush apologist I have ever heard of in my life. It would be comical if it wasn't so eerie.

It should be comical, because it's all an act.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

You are the greatest Bush apologist I have ever heard of in my life. It would be comical if it wasn't so eerie.

It should be comical, because it's all an act.

It mgiht make you feel better to believe so, but you'd be incorrect. I'm a proud American. Freedom, like a virus, will spread in the middle east. Once people get a taste of freedom they cannot ever go back. The liberation of the peole in Iraq has already seen great progress. 10-15 years from now I can't imagine how far they will have come. You'd think the same "the ends justify the means" environmentalist wackos on this board would apply that same philosophy using their vast empathy in the middle east situation. Hipocrisy reigns supreme at VV.

[Xatrei]

Dude. You never made a mistake? You never underestimated anything? Seriously, how did people become so damned heartless and unforgiving? Yet, at the same time so many of these same people are blown away by the revelations of one criminal scum P Diddy and his walking. It's really quite astounding.

Listen carefully, you demented ass licker. No one is blown away by anything he said. What he said wasn't original or revolutionary, it was simply true and thus not worthy of bagging on the guy over it. Saying that the guy had a valid point is a wee bit different than being in awe of what he said. Seriously, go fuck yourself and grow up.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Dude. You never made a mistake? You never underestimated anything? Seriously, how did people become so damned heartless and unforgiving? Yet, at the same time so many of these same people are blown away by the revelations of one criminal scum P Diddy and his walking. It's really quite astounding.

Listen carefully, you demented ass licker. No one is blown away by anything he said. What he said wasn't original or revolutionary, it was simply true and thus not worthy of bagging on the guy over it. Saying that the guy had a valid point is a wee bit different than being in awe of what he said. Seriously, go fuck yourself and grow up.

First off, yes, I'd gladly lick a clean female ass. Secondly, it is definitely worth bagging on a guy for. That's what people with a sense of humor do. Third, I'm growning up every day. Lastly, I think I might just scope out some porn and fuck myself. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Toshira]

5 years later is a misstep?

Dude. You never made a mistake? You never underestimated anything? Seriously, how did people become so damned heartless and unforgiving? Yet, at the same time so many of these same people are blown away by the revelations of one criminal scum P Diddy and his walking. It's really quite astounding.

Lose your son or daughter to a mistake and see how forgiving you are.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

5 years later is a misstep?

Dude. You never made a mistake? You never underestimated anything? Seriously, how did people become so damned heartless and unforgiving? Yet, at the same time so many of these same people are blown away by the revelations of one criminal scum P Diddy and his walking. It's really quite astounding.

Lose your son or daughter to a mistake and see how forgiving you are.

Not comparable. You must be able to look at you job and compare. That is the only fair comparison.

[Zaelath]

5 years later is a misstep?

Dude. You never made a mistake? You never underestimated anything? Seriously, how did people become so damned heartless and unforgiving? Yet, at the same time so many of these same people are blown away by the revelations of one criminal scum P Diddy and his walking. It's really quite astounding.

Lose your son or daughter to a mistake and see how forgiving you are.

Not comparable. You must be able to look at you job and compare. That is the only fair comparison.

I've never shat on someone's server then put up a massive banner with MISSION ACCOMPLISHED and donned a military uniform that I disgraced, then held a press conference. So no, I don't think I've ever fucked up to that degree.

[Truant]

You are the greatest Bush apologist I have ever heard of in my life. It would be comical if it wasn't so eerie.

It should be comical, because it's all an act.

It mgiht make you feel better to believe so

It doesn't make me feel better to believe so (it doesn't affect me emotionally either way).
But, I know that this persona you have developed on this board is just that, a persona. It is not you. It is what you use to pass the time of the day and bring you enjoyment by posting here.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

You are the greatest Bush apologist I have ever heard of in my life. It would be comical if it wasn't so eerie.

It should be comical, because it's all an act.

It mgiht make you feel better to believe so

It doesn't make me feel better to believe so (it doesn't affect me emotionally either way).
But, I know that this persona you have developed on this board is just that, a persona. It is not you. It is what you use to pass the time of the day and bring you enjoyment by posting here.

And, you're still wrong. I know many present themselves differently on these boards than who they are in real life, I do not.

[Boogahz]

Did Bush put a Mission Accomplished banner somewhere that I missed?

[miir]

Did Bush put a Mission Accomplished banner somewhere that I missed?

I'm pretty sure the left wing media just made it up.

[Boogahz]

No, but they did a good job of ignoring how and why it was put up when it was addressed within days of the landing. Then everyone made a big deal about how it was *SUPAHBREAKINGNEWS* when the White House addressed it a few months ago.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

"Mission Accomplished", a phrase associated with completing a mission, is in recent years particularly associated with a sign displayed on USS Abraham Lincoln during a televised address by United States President George W. Bush on May 1, 2003.

Bush stated at the time that this was the end to major combat operations in Iraq. While this statement did coincide with an end to the conventional phase of the war, Bush's assertion — and the sign itself — became controversial after guerilla warfare in Iraq increased during the Iraqi insurgency. The vast majority of casualties, among both coalition (approximately 96% as of November 2007) and Iraqi combatants, and among Iraqi civilians, have occurred after the speech. Due to this fact, "Mission Accomplished" is now a winged word for uncompleted operations with an unclear ending.

[Ashur]

"Mission Accomplished", a phrase associated with completing a mission, is in recent years particularly associated with a sign displayed on USS Abraham Lincoln during a televised address by United States President George W. Bush on May 1, 2003.

I'm certainly no Bush apologist, but when I saw that speech, I was surprised at the banner, which I understood as recognition of the end of the ship's mission in support of the combat operations. I don't think ANYONE at that point thought everything was all said and done in Iraq, nor was it implied in the speech.

That said, he certainly gave his opponents something to poke him with by that photo op. Not well thought out.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

"Mission Accomplished", a phrase associated with completing a mission, is in recent years particularly associated with a sign displayed on USS Abraham Lincoln during a televised address by United States President George W. Bush on May 1, 2003.

I'm certainly no Bush apologist, but when I saw that speech, I was surprised at the banner, which I understood as recognition of the end of the ship's mission in support of the combat operations. I don't think ANYONE at that point thought everything was all said and done in Iraq, nor was it implied in the speech.

That said, he certainly gave his opponents something to poke him with by that photo op. Not well thought out.

The media choose to present it in a way to hurt Bush, as they have done his whole presidency.

[Boogahz]

"Mission Accomplished", a phrase associated with completing a mission, is in recent years particularly associated with a sign displayed on USS Abraham Lincoln during a televised address by United States President George W. Bush on May 1, 2003.

I'm certainly no Bush apologist, but when I saw that speech, I was surprised at the banner, which I understood as recognition of the end of the ship's mission in support of the combat operations. I don't think ANYONE at that point thought everything was all said and done in Iraq, nor was it implied in the speech.

That said, he certainly gave his opponents something to poke him with by that photo op. Not well thought out.

Yeah, he should have had the pilot abort the landing and go somewhere else!

[miir]

So you're saying that the actions of the press and not those of the Bush administration are responsible for all of the negativity?


Do you blame the deaths of thousands of American servicemen in Iraq on the press as well?
Perhaps the attacks on 9/11 were perpetrated by the press as well.
The high price of gas? Yep, probably the press.

[Ashur]

I assume all of these questions are being directed at the original poster, because all *I* was saying is that the ship's mission accomplished celebration wasn't the smartest place for a presidential address on Iraq.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Do you blame the deaths of thousands of American servicemen in Iraq on the press as well?

No. I don't 'blame' anyone. It's a war. People die in a war. A case could be made that the negative press during the war effort may have fed into the confidence of the insurgents, though.

Perhaps the attacks on 9/11 were perpetrated by the press as well.

Nope. I believe it was terrorists.

The high price of gas? Yep, probably the press.

No, again.

Try and stick to the discussion at hand or maybe if you have nothing clever to say about the discussion at hand, you could just refrain from the silly jump to conclusion board game nonsense.

[Fash]

So you're saying that the actions of the press and not those of the Bush administration are responsible for all of the negativity?


Do you blame the deaths of thousands of American servicemen in Iraq on the press as well?
Perhaps the attacks on 9/11 were perpetrated by the press as well.
The high price of gas? Yep, probably the press.

War happens. The country decided to go to war. End. Of. Story.

I blame the spread of the idea that the deaths were in vain, and the general negativity towards the war, on the press and how they've portrayed everything. There is a silver lining in everything, and they could care less about that.

Do you think, with our press corps, that ANY war could ever be waged with a supportive media?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Do you think, with our press corps, that ANY war could ever be waged with a supportive media?

If one was started by Obama, it would be.

[Truant]

you guys keep saying War. The country is at war, etc.

There was never a declaration of war. Therefore, we are not at war.

[Fash]

There hasn't been a declaration of war since World War II. Has there been peace since then? Ah, no... it's a war, whether it's worded as a declaration or not. Bush didn't do this by himself, nor does he deserve all the blame. The problem is that you're absolutely sure, as opposed to only speculating, that there is blame to be had... That I blame on the press.

[Truant]

I'm not sure who the rest of your post is directed at, much less what you said.

I'm not trying to be a dick about semantics here. But it's a bit of a misrepresentation to say "these things happen in war" or "casualties are expected and accepted in a war" because we're not at war.
Yes horrible things happen during war, and at this point in our history, we know these things are going to happen. That doesn't make them ok (ethically or morally) but we expect them. They're acceptable consequences.
In a war.

Saying we must be at war because we're not at peace is a horrible, and incorrect, piece of logic. Reductio ad absurdum.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'm not sure who the rest of your post is directed at, much less what you said.

I'm not trying to be a dick about semantics here. But it's a bit of a misrepresentation to say "these things happen in war" or "casualties are expected and accepted in a war" because we're not at war.
Yes horrible things happen during war, and at this point in our history, we know these things are going to happen. That doesn't make them ok (ethically or morally) but we expect them. They're acceptable consequences.
In a war.

Saying we must be at war because we're not at peace is a horrible, and incorrect, piece of logic. Reductio ad absurdum.

America is currently fighting a war in the Middle East. You are playing with semantics.

[Spang]

No, not really.

Iraq is being occupied by the military. Occasionally violence breaks out. That doesn't make it a war.

[miir]

No, not really.

Iraq is being occupied by the military. Occasionally violence breaks out. That doesn't make it a war.

What the fuck would you even know about war or what's going on in the middle east?

[Spang]

The media told me.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Funny how you've glanced past Fashidus' post about this. Typical.

[Spang]

I haven't responded to a lot of posts in this thread. Go fuck yourself.

[Nick]

The iraq war is pretty fucking far from over.

Retreating doesn't = victory (see Vietnam)

And the time for "winning" the iraq war (from an American standpoint) has passed.

[Winnow]

The iraq war is pretty fucking far from over.

Retreating doesn't = victory (see Vietnam)

Oil secured. War over. If you see an attack on an oil refinery then the war is ongoing. Policing is what we're handing over to the locals.

[Nick]

Victory in the eyes of America and victory in the eyes of the world differ substantially (and guess what, ours is "actual victory" whereas yours is ultimately self destructive)

And let's face it, one of the main elements that dumbasses like you thought Iraq was a good idea was that it was going to reduce "terror" in the world.

Well, newsflash:

[Winnow]

Victory in the eyes of America and victory in the eyes of the world differ substantially (and guess what, ours is "actual victory" whereas yours is ultimately self destructive)

Actual victory? You're the dumbass that still thinks were there to liberate the people.

We're there to secure oil and reduce the threat of terrorist attacks within the United States. While you still see the random suicide bombers, we've devastated any infrastructure Al-Kida had while at the same time not making a martyr out of Bin Laden.

Middle Eastern nutjobs will continue to fight amongst themselves. That's nothing new. You can't hope to bring peace to the region. Only an idiot like you would consider that victory in a land full of religious whackos.

[Nick]

You're a intellectually stunted armchair general who should really just shut the fuck up unless you're talking about comics.

I never thought America was there to liberate anyone, or that the middle east is easily made peaceful. Stop projecting your retarded little fictional angers onto anyone who doesn't masturbate to the stars and stripes, dickhead.




But at least you got the oil and a chance to feel like great men right?

[Winnow]

That's not blood. Those are roses on that dress.

[Nick]

Your tax dollars at work.