Thou shalt not make polls...

Spang · Post by **Spang** » June 23, 2008, 2:37 pm

Do you believe in God?

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 23, 2008, 2:39 pm

Absolutely not. As a species, we were not created by any sort of intelligence or for any specific purpose.

We exist.

Death is final and there is nothing beyond it.

Sorry.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 23, 2008, 2:51 pm

I'm pretty dead set against any of the major organized religions' God being the real deal, and I don't really believe that He chose any one vessel to be the one to communicate His message to the rest of the masses. But I think there has to be something more out there, be it just a universal energy that we all come from and end up going back to or whatever. Science can explain a lot, but I'm not arrogant enough to believe that there couldn't be more out there (and I'm pretty arrogant). I'll leave it at "Undecided" for now.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » June 23, 2008, 2:58 pm

The only god I believe in is a dirty cocaine dealer.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » June 23, 2008, 3:17 pm

I'm not a subscriber to the organized religions, but I definitely believe that there's a higher being and more to the Universe than some bags of water on this planet. Well, I hope so anyway.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2008, 3:41 pm

Nope. No such thing. However, in many cases it is a wonderful thing that helps guides humans in a good direction. The stories (fables) are designed to help teach those wrong from right, etc. I understand the human need for a believe there is more and that this life is not final, but I don't not agree with that notion.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 23, 2008, 6:01 pm

Nope.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 23, 2008, 6:05 pm

Nope.

In other news, I also don't believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 23, 2008, 6:15 pm

No, but I won't say that he does not exist 100% since no one knows the real answer.

I think its alright to say you believe (or don't believe in God), but to say he does (or doesn't) exist without really knowing is wrong and both those parties are equally stupid.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » June 23, 2008, 6:20 pm

Well, the voices have to belong to somebody...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 23, 2008, 7:30 pm

Just because I don't know what's out there, I'm not going to believe or make something up.

Religion is bullshit.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » June 23, 2008, 10:49 pm

There is a god. its not the god they tell you about in church, but there is a god. I think he's a goat. A really big goddamn spacegoat. But hey. Who am I to judge?

lmnt9 · Post by **lmnt9** » June 25, 2008, 4:46 pm

I'm open to the option that there is a God(s), but it's hard for me to believe with no proof.

As for religion, I have to agree with Winnow. It's fucking bullshit.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » July 1, 2008, 11:55 am

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act I, Scene V

Put me down as undecided.

I don't feel a need to make shit up either but I'm not about to make a religion out of my disbelief like many modern, self professed atheists are. Too many non-believers aren't content with their skepticism/non-belief, but rather feel a need to belittle those that do (as seen on these forums the many times this subject has appeared). I'm content to say that I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian myth anymore than I believe in the Norse, Greek, Egyptian or other myths (as Midnyte alluded, I respect some of the moral fibre they try to instill but it holds true for Aesop's fables too). I don't know everything, I won't pretend to: I just know what works and does not work for me, and in this case there are too many unanswered questions on BOTH sides of the issue for me to make an absolute judgement.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 1, 2008, 12:31 pm

Wulfran wrote:"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet, Act I, Scene V

Put me down as undecided.

I don't feel a need to make shit up either but I'm not about to make a religion out of my disbelief like many modern, self professed atheists are. Too many non-believers aren't content with their skepticism/non-belief, but rather feel a need to belittle those that do (as seen on these forums the many times this subject has appeared). I'm content to say that I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian myth anymore than I believe in the Norse, Greek, Egyptian or other myths (as Midnyte alluded, I respect some of the moral fibre they try to instill but it holds true for Aesop's fables too). I don't know everything, I won't pretend to: I just know what works and does not work for me, and in this case there are too many unanswered questions on BOTH sides of the issue for me to make an absolute judgement.

I think if more of the believers were content to live and let live, without attempting to push their faith or their faith's tenets upon those that don't share it, there would be few, if any, of the evangelical atheists you complain about. Such blowback is invited when the religious attempt to replace science with fantasy in the classroom, or promote laws based upon their interpretations of what glorified witchdoctors scrawled onto goat hides thousands of years ago, or discriminate against those groups that their holy book says are "evil", or they myriad of other offenses by the believers. While I personally find their beliefs to be silly and adolescent, I wouldn't care a bit what they believe, no matter how outrageous, if their beliefs never affected me. However, I do have to worry about such folks trying to inject creationism in the science classroom, or imposing their morality (such as it is) into the lives of everyone else, or standing in the way of scientific / medical research that might save or improve countless lives. They do not stand idly by, so can the non-believers really afford to do nothing? Can you really fault them for their reaction to the offenses committed by the religious?

Edit to add: I do, of course, recognize that many of the faithful do not directly push their beliefs or morality on those around them. Here in the U.S., however, the faithful are not so tolerant as a group. Further, I would contend that any individual involvement with a religion lends material support to those that work tirelessly to impose their faith and values upon the rest of us.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » July 1, 2008, 12:43 pm

The tit for tat of fundie christians/muslims/whatever vs "fundie atheists" is garbage. For an atheist to blame his over-reaction on the other side makes him every bit the retard the believer is.

There is a big difference however when you talk about something like creationism vs evolution in the classroom or blacklisting literature based on relgious grounds: this is blatant religious interference in the life/belief system of others and SHOULD be unconstitutional in any country that enshrines freedom of religion in its constitution, except at privately schools that openly acknowledge the religious part of their criteria (not to dwell on the fact that evolution is a theory with valid supporting scientific evidence whereas creationism is wholly supported by religious myth). Seriously, we have religious schools up here (funding for Catholic schools is actually mandated by our constitution because of the historical basis in the French in Quebec) but I have never heard of creationism being pushed or even mentioned in any publicly funded institution: is this only a US problem?

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 1, 2008, 1:17 pm

Wulfran wrote:The tit for tat of fundie christians/muslims/whatever vs "fundie atheists" is garbage. For an atheist to blame his over-reaction on the other side makes him every bit the retard the believer is.

There is a big difference however when you talk about something like creationism vs evolution in the classroom or blacklisting literature based on relgious grounds: this is blatant religious interference in the life/belief system of others and SHOULD be unconstitutional in any country that enshrines freedom of religion in its constitution, except at privately schools that openly acknowledge the religious part of their criteria (not to dwell on the fact that evolution is a theory with valid supporting scientific evidence whereas creationism is wholly supported by religious myth). Seriously, we have religious schools up here (funding for Catholic schools is actually mandated by our constitution because of the historical basis in the French in Quebec) but I have never heard of creationism being pushed or even mentioned in any publicly funded institution: is this only a US problem?

I think we may end up having to agree to disagree on this, which is fine. I'm not Canadian, and I've never lived there, so I can't speak to what these things are like there. Here, however, the religious right has a lot of influence. There are battles waged across the country in local and state-level school boards over "Intelligent Design," which is nothing more than creationism masked in the trappings of science. Stem cell research is obstructed by the faithful on purely religious grounds. Homosexuals and others are discriminated against based on the religious tenets. HPV vaccinations that might save significant numbers of women from cervical cancer are prevented due to objections based on faith. HIV/AIDS prevention in Africa and other areas are stymied because some people in the developed world believe that their deity doesn't approve of condoms. Yes, none of these things should be an issue, but they are because the religious make them an issue here, and there is understandably a backlash against the faith that drives these things.

Also, there's a pretty significant difference between expressing opinions on a message board, sometimes more artfully and respectfully than others, and being a real-world, confrontational, evangelical atheist. Let's be careful not to conflate the two. I, and I suspect most of the outspoken atheists here, are not in the habit of publicly castigating the faithful or mocking their beliefs. I'm not out picketing churches or trying to convert the masses. I am, however, inclined to work in opposition to their efforts to forward agendas such as those I cited previously. I do this by writing letters, signing petitions, speaking to legislators and/or attending and participating in public hearings and meetings. My opposition has nothing to do with their personally held beliefs, regardless of what I happen to think of those beliefs. My opposition is solely with their efforts to push faith-based claptrap into places it doesn't belong.

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » July 1, 2008, 1:24 pm

I'm a practicing Catholic, but I had to stop and think about it for a second. It's a lot easier to say you believe in a deity than to actually believe it. If people actually believed in the things they said they did, maybe they wouldn't have to be so damn loud about it.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 1, 2008, 1:39 pm

It is pretty easy around here to be jaded by "the religious right" and its affect on politics, all the way to the white house. Also, I grew up in the southern US, where in some areas, being unaffiliated is met with confusion and disdain. Of course, that is more of a cultural thing in the south, at least where I am from.

Granted, I have lived on the west coast for close to 20 years now, and have a different view. I live and let live until the moral majority types cross the line. These evangelical, born-again folks like on my father's side of the family see only black and white. There is only faith, that is all. There is no understanding of freedom of religion, unless it is theirs. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, blacks, asians, Hispanics and all other foreigners are an infringement upon their glorious South. It is shit like that that makes me never want to go back to the South, even though there are so many great things in the southern states.

That could just be Mississippi though. (hell, most of Oregon is somewhat shitbird crazy as well)

That said, all the Christian, Hindu, Muslim and other folks I work with and associate with are NOT like the people in the above paragraph. Religion, like anything else, has different categories, like in all walks of life. There are assholes everywhere and there are also awesome people. It is up to all of us to be at least tolerant, if not welcoming, of other people's beliefs, or even lack of belief.

edit: By "glorious South" they are referring to Mississippi alone for the most part. The love them some seccession! I did not intend to point an unfair finger to the entire southern US, even though it certainly seems that way. Fuck Mississippi!

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 1, 2008, 1:40 pm

Surprisingly, I agree completely with Xatrei.

In the real world, I do not want to discuss religion with people. I feel that even expressing what I believe is an attack upon the beliefs of whomever I am speaking to. People have to pull it out of me, and I pepper it with disclaimers that it's just my belief and I'm not trying to argue the point.

On here, I feel more free to be 'evangelical' and tell it like it is. The anonymity of the internet, and the general tension that is the vault, allows me to declare forcefully what I believe to be the truth and what is backed up by all observable evidence and common sense.

The mind builds on top of other things.. The more important something is, the more dependent other things are upon it. Religious people have built so much on top of their 'faith', that to hack at it could be traumatizing or worse... There is an innate resistance that reveals itself when someones core beliefs are attacked. I kind of feel bad about the few times that I've been in deep religious conversations with believers, at their request, and have actually gotten through to them... Most recently, a remote co-worker and I discussed religion at length during one of her visits, and now she's reading books like "A Letter to a Christian Nation," "The God Delusion," and "God is Not Great," none of which I recommended.

I just think religion should be a personal and private thing... It's really not necessary for anyone to know your affiliation, nor should you attempt to convert or shame someone for their own beliefs. You are free to restrict your own choices due to your belief, but you are not free to restrict others. It is for this reason that the 'evangelical atheist' is justified in some aspects, because people are being affected by religious beliefs that are not their own.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 1, 2008, 2:29 pm

I'll step up. Yes I believe. You can hammer me with facts and theories and what not but I will still believe. However, I will not push my belief on anyone else. This belief is personal. I'm not embarrased that people know that I believe and many are quick to point out that I am far from the perfect example of how a believer should act or behave. That doesn't matter. All that matters is what I feel. When death comes non believers will say that I died in ignorance. Well, ignorance is truly bliss now isn't it.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 2, 2008, 2:26 pm

I'll step up too. No I do not believe in God. You can hammer me with no facts at all and theories and what not but I will still not believe. However, I will not push my lack of belief on anyone else. This lack of belief is personal. I'm not embarrased that people know that I do not believe and many are quick to point out that I am far from the perfect example of how a non-believer should act or behave. That doesn't matter. All that matters is what I feel. When death comes believers will say that I died not being ignorant to the logical conclusion that there is no God. Well, non-ignorance is truly bliss now isn't it.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 2, 2008, 2:44 pm

Bravo! see it works both ways.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 2, 2008, 3:11 pm

I think we should perform the Inquisition on Midnyte's non-believing ass.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 2, 2008, 3:12 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:Bravo! see it works both ways.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 2, 2008, 3:28 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I think we should perform the Inquisition on Midnyte's non-believing ass.

The inquistion
Let's begin
The inquistion
Look out sin
We have a mission
To convert the Jews
(Jew ja Jew ja Jew ja Jews)
We're gonna teach
Them wrong from right
We're gonna help
Them see the light
And make an offer
That they can't refuse
(That the Jews just can't refuse)

Confess (confess, confess)
Don't be boring
Say yes (say yes, say yes)
Don't be dull

A fact
You're ignoring
It's better to lose
Your skullcap
Than your skull

The inquistion, what a show
The inquistion, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
But the Inquistion's here
And it's here to stay
The inquistion, oh boy
The inquistion, what a joy
The inquistion, oy oy

I was sitting
In a temple
I was minding
My own business
I was listening
To a lovely Hebrew mass
Then these papus
Persons plunge in
And they throw me in a

Dungeon, and they shove
A red hot poker up my ass

Is that considerate?
Is that polite?
And not a tube
Of Preparation H in sight

I'm sitting
Plicking chickens
And I'm looking
Through the pickings

And suddenly these guys
Bring down my balls
I didn't even know them
And they grabbed me
By the scrotum and

They started
Playing ping pong
With my balls

Oy, the agony
Ooh, the shame
To make
My privates public
For a game

The inquistion, what a show
The inquistion, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
But the inquistion's here
And it's here to

Hey, Torquemada
Whaddaya say?
I just got back
From the auto-da-fé
Auto-da-fé
What's an auto-da-fé?
It's what you oughtn't
To do but you do anyway

Skit skat voodely
Vat tootin de day

Will you convert?
No, no, no, no
Will you confess?
No, no, no, no
Will you revert?
No, no, no, no
Will you say yes?
No, no, no, no

Now I ask in a nice way
I said pretty please
I bent their ears

Now I'll work on their knees

Hey, Torquemada
Walk this way
We got a little game
That you might wanna play
So pull that handle
Try your luck
Who knows, Torq
You might win a buck
Alright

Put it in the car
(In the car 2x)

How we doing?
Any converts today?
Not a one, nay, nay, nay
We've flattened
Their fingers
We branded their buns
Nothing is working
Send in the nuns

The Inquistion, what a show
The Inquistion, here we go
We know you're wishing
That we'd go away
So, c'mon you Moslems
And you Jews
We got big news
For all of yous
You better change
Your point of views today
'Cause the inquistion's here
And it's here to stay

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 2, 2008, 3:32 pm

I totally expected someone to add a Monty Python reference long before a Mel Brooks one. Good job!

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 2, 2008, 5:06 pm

Cake or Death?!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 2, 2008, 5:08 pm

Humperdink?

Spang · Post by **Spang** » July 2, 2008, 5:28 pm

Truant wrote:Cake or Death?!

Uh, cake for me, please.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » July 2, 2008, 6:01 pm

Spang wrote:
Truant wrote:Cake or Death?!
Uh, cake for me, please.

The cake is a lie.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » July 2, 2008, 9:12 pm

I don't know what "God" means in the context of a question like this one. So I guess 'uncertain' is the only answer I can put down. I think that it's very possible that the world is more complex than we know by several orders of magnitude. It's possible that one of these orders could constitute something that I'd consider Godly.

I definitely don't believe in any of the theistic Gods posited by any of the major world religions. I also agree (I think everybody knows this) that shit like 'intelligent design' is ridiculous and stupid. And I'll even agree with this statement:

Xatrei wrote:I would contend that any individual involvement with a religion lends material support to those that work tirelessly to impose their faith and values upon the rest of us.

But that tells an incomplete story. It also lends material support to those who work tirelessly to end poverty, to feed the homeless, to help drug addicts kick their habits, to prevent prison recidivism, to create affordable housing...

I have personally seen (although not experienced myself) the incredible transformative power that religion can have on people's lives. I've seen people who were lazy, apathetic, immoral, selfish and unhappy turn their lives around and live happy lives in which they do well by themselves and all others they come into contact with.

It's not just an issue of 'I'd be happy to tolerate religious folks if their beliefs didn't affect me.' Sure, the crazy fundies may have beliefs which affect you in negative ways. But their beliefs also affect you in positive ways-- by, in many ways, making the world a better place.

The condescending attitude that many atheists (I don't think I've seen it expressed here yet) have that "well, if some people are weak enough to need religion as a crutch" betrays a complete misunderstanding of what religion is, how it functions, and how it affects our society.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 2, 2008, 9:29 pm

Very well said Sueven. Thus why I support faith based programs who true intent is to help those in need. No one minds when the government does it, but because it's a religious based organization doing it, it's a problem to some people. Never understood that. If the purpose is a good one, then let them be.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 3, 2008, 12:41 am

Sueven wrote:
Xatrei wrote:I would contend that any individual involvement with a religion lends material support to those that work tirelessly to impose their faith and values upon the rest of us.
But that tells an incomplete story. It also lends material support to those who work tirelessly to end poverty, to feed the homeless, to help drug addicts kick their habits, to prevent prison recidivism, to create affordable housing...

I have personally seen (although not experienced myself) the incredible transformative power that religion can have on people's lives. I've seen people who were lazy, apathetic, immoral, selfish and unhappy turn their lives around and live happy lives in which they do well by themselves and all others they come into contact with.

While it's true that I get very agitated discussing religion, I do understand the difference between organized (combined with corrupt) religion, and the simple monk-level members of religion that have good intentions, and more pure motives in their religious practices. "Brother Sun, Sister Moon" is an excellent movie that opened my eyes a bit back in the 80's in my Humanities class.

Graham Faulkner portrays Francesco, the spoiled son of a wealthy merchant. Following his return from war, Francesco renounces all his worldly possessions to live an ascetic and simple life as a man of God and nature. Much to the dismay of his family, friends and the local bishop, he gradually gains a large following amongst the poor and the suffering.

Clare, a young woman also of a wealthy family, serves and cares for lepers of the community. Francis is inspired by her example, and in return, after his community forms, she comes to join the brothers in their life of poverty.

The film contrasts Francis's innocence, piety and virtue with the bloated pomp of official Roman Catholic Church doctrine, which is depicted as being weighed down by internal politics, corruption and hypocrisy

Even so, you must distinguish the difference between religion and the need in someone's life to find a focus. You claim witness to amazing turnarounds in someone's life due to religion. I've also seen amazing turnarounds in a person's life because they discovered the electric guitar and that gave them a focus that they needed in their life.

I often say two things about religion, besides the obvious corruption. It controlled the masses in the old days (and still does in the Middle East) and the fear of death is what continues to keep religion alive.

So kudos to those that find a focus through religion. That's just one way to find a purpose in life. Your set of morals should be tailor made to suit you, not come from a predefined set that was made up centuries ago by people who had no clue what the future would be like and based a lot of their scripture on the unknown, which is now known.

When I see some Christmas carolers, I don't immediately want to throat punch them if they appear happy with what they're doing. When I see Tibetan Monks, I sometimes envy their peaceful, stress free (except when they're being killed by the Chinese) lives.

I agree that whatever helps you find peace with yourself and maybe a focus in life, is a good thing. I take issue that people actually think they're living their lives guided by a superior being, especially the ridiculous versions found in every major religion on Earth. Even so, I'm willing to end all organized religion for the betterment of mankind. YOUR (yes you) religion is no better than the other guy's religion. Both have fanatical fucking loony people that run the show making any contribution you give to a church, a sin against humanity, no matter how many mother Teresa figures there are running around. Restructure your humanitarian efforts to focus on giving money to someone other than the church.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » July 3, 2008, 5:40 am

Winnow wrote:Even so, you must distinguish the difference between religion and the need in someone's life to find a focus. You claim witness to amazing turnarounds in someone's life due to religion. I've also seen amazing turnarounds in a person's life because they discovered the electric guitar and that gave them a focus that they needed in their life.

Absolutely. Religion is not the only thing that can be transformative in that way. I'd say that it's clearly one of the more common and powerful sources of positive transformation.

Winnow wrote:It controlled the masses in the old days (and still does in the Middle East)

Sure, although I think it's a lot more complicated than that (physical coercion and feudal social structures also had something to do with controlling the masses in the old days, for instance, and value systems which largely come from religion have something to do with controlling the masses in America today). But there's always something controlling the masses whenever there's not anarchy. Right now, you could make a convincing argument that it's consumerism. I'm not convinced that's an improvement.

Winnow wrote:the fear of death is what continues to keep religion alive.

I don't agree with this one. I'm sure there are some people who are motivated by the fear of death, but religion is far more powerful than that.

Winnow wrote:So kudos to those that find a focus through religion. That's just one way to find a purpose in life. Your set of morals should be tailor made to suit you, not come from a predefined set that was made up centuries ago by people who had no clue what the future would be like and based a lot of their scripture on the unknown, which is now known.

I think you underestimate the extent to which people individualize their religious beliefs. The fundies are not the majority.

Winnow wrote:Even so, I'm willing to end all organized religion for the betterment of mankind. YOUR (yes you) religion is no better than the other guy's religion. Both have fanatical fucking loony people that run the show making any contribution you give to a church, a sin against humanity, no matter how many mother Teresa figures there are running around. Restructure your humanitarian efforts to focus on giving money to someone other than the church.

I disagree. There are good churches and bad churches. Some churches use charity money far more effectively and to do far more good than secular humanitarian organizations. I don't agree that most churches are run by corrupt lunatics.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 3, 2008, 2:17 pm

Sueven wrote:
Xatrei wrote:I would contend that any individual involvement with a religion lends material support to those that work tirelessly to impose their faith and values upon the rest of us.
But that tells an incomplete story. It also lends material support to those who work tirelessly to end poverty, to feed the homeless, to help drug addicts kick their habits, to prevent prison recidivism, to create affordable housing...

I have personally seen (although not experienced myself) the incredible transformative power that religion can have on people's lives. I've seen people who were lazy, apathetic, immoral, selfish and unhappy turn their lives around and live happy lives in which they do well by themselves and all others they come into contact with.

It's not just an issue of 'I'd be happy to tolerate religious folks if their beliefs didn't affect me.' Sure, the crazy fundies may have beliefs which affect you in negative ways. But their beliefs also affect you in positive ways-- by, in many ways, making the world a better place.

The condescending attitude that many atheists (I don't think I've seen it expressed here yet) have that "well, if some people are weak enough to need religion as a crutch" betrays a complete misunderstanding of what religion is, how it functions, and how it affects our society.

This is an example of what I often see as religion getting a free pass for its bad behavior. I readily agree that many religious groups and individuals do plenty of really positive things. However, doing some number of good things doesn't absolve any individual or a group from responsibility for the bad things done by them as individuals or in their name by the group. Further, the religious groups have no exclusive ability to do any of the things you mention. There are any number of secular groups that work just as tirelessly for the causes you mention, and they do so without any religious strings attached. People's lives are transformed when they become so passionate about something that they become motivated to make significant changes, whether that something is their church, a new child, their bowling league or a new-found affinity for a social cause. Ultimately, it's that person's own passion creating the transformation, not the religion. After all, there are plenty of lazy, apathetic, immoral, selfish or unhappy, yet very religious people who have never experienced such radical transformation.

From my perspective, the capacity for personal transformation or for doing good works is something shared by everyone, whether saint, sinner, godless heathen or something in the middle. You generally won't find many secular organizations or individuals to willing handcuff scientific research, inject mythology into classrooms or force their superstitious morality onto others. I think you'll be even more pressed to find many willing to condemn millions to suffering or death through inaction simply because the action required doesn't jibe with their interpretation of some ancient superstitious scribblings, as is the case with HIV/AIDS prevention or HPV vaccinations that I mentioned previously.

EDIT to add: I suppose I should have read the rest of the thread beyond Sueven's post since Winnow's comment touched on this subject also. With regards to churches being led by corrupt lunatics, I generally assume that any preacher is a modern day Elmer Gantry until proven otherwise (look it up and read the book if you don't get the reference). As I stated before, Churches may fund and support many good things, but they also fund and empower the movements that occasionally make me regret the fact that those folks are no longer fed to lions on a regular basis.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 10, 2008, 2:07 pm

Here's a great example of the type of foolishness that I was referring to when describing things that invite a strong backlash from secularists and atheists against religious extremists.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926643.300

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 10, 2008, 2:29 pm

"through the back door"

Nice little clergy snipe in that article.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » July 10, 2008, 2:44 pm

Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 10, 2008, 3:24 pm

Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?

I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 10, 2008, 3:57 pm

Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.

Who is forcing the issue on you? Someone here?

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » July 10, 2008, 3:59 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.
Who is forcing the issue on you? Someone here?

I think he meant in general, especially considering this is a message board where people often discuss their beliefs (on any issues).

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 10, 2008, 4:01 pm

Aardor wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.
Who is forcing the issue on you? Someone here?
I think he meant in general, especially considering this is a message board where people often discuss their beliefs (on any issues).

Then one of us missed the point in Ashur's post.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » July 10, 2008, 4:39 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Aardor wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.
Who is forcing the issue on you? Someone here?
I think he meant in general, especially considering this is a message board where people often discuss their beliefs (on any issues).
Then one of us missed the point in Ashur's post.

I meant in general INCLUDING this message board.

My personal beliefs aside, go count the number of posts proselytizing some religion and then go count the posts proselytizing atheism on this board.

If someone wants to air their thoughts on something, cool, no problem, but good lord how many fucking "GoD BeLiEvErs R IdIoTs AmIrItE?!?!?" posts do I need to see a week here?

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 10, 2008, 5:02 pm

Boog - My comment was within the context of this thread as a whole, of which Ash's latest post is one part. I suppose you'd have a point if you isolate the one single post from the larger context, but that's not the case here. I fully recognize that Ash, and virtually every other person on this board that has religious beliefs, regardless of the strength their faith, is perfectly content to live and let live. I even said as much in my first post in this discussion. However, the tolerance of this board's members (or the lack thereof) has got exactly nothing to do with the main theme of the discussion that developed within this thread, nor with the point that I was making. The point is that it is unreasonable to expect secularists and atheists not to have a negative reaction to the attempts by a religious minority to force their religious beliefs into the classroom, the courtroom or public policy.

No one in this thread, or virtually any of the many others on the subject, tries to convert anyone to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism or Agnosticism. A few heated exceptions notwithstanding, the discussions here are usually just a bunch of people discussing their opinions, and not any serious effort to impugn someone's faith, or to convert them from it. This thread has been pretty civil as far as I can tell. Some number of people here do, however, generally mischaracterize an atheist's description of his beliefs to be an attack on the faith of others. I never see a religious person's description of his faith interpreted as an attack on the godless, though.

EDIT TO ADD:

Ashur wrote:If someone wants to air their thoughts on something, cool, no problem, but good lord how many fucking "GoD BeLiEvErs R IdIoTs AmIrItE?!?!?" posts do I need to see a week here?

Maybe I'm just missing it somewhere, but I don't think that's the case with this discussion at all, or with most of the other discussions on this subject. This is a good example of what I'm talking about when I say that an atheist's expression of his beliefs are misinterpreted / mischaracterized as an attack on the religious.

edit again:Spelling is hard

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » July 10, 2008, 5:13 pm

Ashur wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.
Who is forcing the issue on you? Someone here?
Then one of us missed the point in Ashur's post.
I meant in general INCLUDING this message board. My personal beliefs aside, go count the number of posts proselytizing some religion and then go count the posts proselytizing atheism on this board.

If someone wants to air their thoughts on something, cool, no problem, but good lord how many fucking "GoD BeLiEvErs R IdIoTs AmIrItE?!?!?" posts do I need to see a week here?

How many anti-global warming threads do I need to see? Sorry this board doesn't cater to what you like to read about and what you don't, but you have the option to not click on the threads about subjects you do not care to read about. It also comes as no surprise that you see more anti-religion posts here, because the population mostly of VV mostly seems to be agnostic/atheist. Not to mention, in years past, I recall multiple threads with actual worthwhile discussion of the existence of god/worth of religion/etc, not the shit storm that almost every thread about a serious subject turns into.

Also, maybe you should think about why atheists feel the need to voice their opposition to religion at every turn. We (meaning Americans, not atheists seeing as I am not one) have religion in our life every day, which is forced upon us. Growing up, we were forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance everyday, which includes saying our nation is "under God." All of our money has "in god we trust" on it. Many political decisions are based on religion in some manner. Hell, I remember when there was a strong call for Everquest/Magic cards to stop selling their products, by different religious groups.

Having grown up with various members of my family being extremely religious while I was agnostic/borderline atheist (possibly because of these individuals), I can totally see why atheists react that way. On the other hand, I can totally see why Christians, and other religious groups react the way they do to anything that "goes against" their beliefs. So it would be great if everyone kept their religious beliefs to themselves, but it seems like all you want to do is shut atheists (and others, but as you said MOSTLY atheists) up, under the veil of having peoples beliefs not imposed on another group of people.

note: deleted my section of the embedded quotes above, because apparently you can only have 5 quotes within each other and it seemed like the most pointless of the quotes.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 10, 2008, 7:41 pm

Xatrei wrote:Boog - My comment was within the context of this thread as a whole, of which Ash's latest post is one part. I suppose you'd have a point if you isolate the one single post from the larger context, but that's not the case here. I fully recognize that Ash, and virtually every other person on this board that has religious beliefs, regardless of the strength their faith, is perfectly content to live and let live. I even said as much in my first post in this discussion. However, the tolerance of this board's members (or the lack thereof) has got exactly nothing to do with the main theme of the discussion that developed within this thread, nor with the point that I was making. The point is that it is unreasonable to expect secularists and atheists not to have a negative reaction to the attempts by a religious minority to force their religious beliefs into the classroom, the courtroom or public policy.

No one in this thread, or virtually any of the many others on the subject, tries to convert anyone to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism or Agnosticism. A few heated exceptions notwithstanding, the discussions here are usually just a bunch of people discussing their opinions, and not any serious effort to impugn someone's faith, or to convert them from it. This thread has been pretty civil as far as I can tell. Some number of people here do, however, generally mischaracterize an atheist's description of his beliefs to be an attack on the faith of others. I never see a religious person's description of his faith interpreted as an attack on the godless, though.

EDIT TO ADD:
Ashur wrote:If someone wants to air their thoughts on something, cool, no problem, but good lord how many fucking "GoD BeLiEvErs R IdIoTs AmIrItE?!?!?" posts do I need to see a week here?
Maybe I'm just missing it somewhere, but I don't think that's the case with this discussion at all, or with most of the other discussions on this subject. This is a good example of what I'm talking about when I say that an atheist's expression of his beliefs are misinterpreted / mischaracterized as an attack on the religious.

edit again:Spelling is hard

the fact that this comes up repeatedly along with the fact that you were responding to a quote directly was the only reason I even posted in this thread. I thought it was hilarious that you could somehow agree with what Ashur was saying and go on to do exactly what he was complaining about.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 10, 2008, 7:46 pm

Boogahz wrote:the fact that this comes up repeatedly along with the fact that you were responding to a quote directly was the only reason I even posted in this thread. I thought it was hilarious that you could somehow agree with what Ashur was saying and go on to do exactly what he was complaining about.

Where in the following exchange did I both agree with Ash, and then do what he's complaining about? I agreed with him that it's a nice idea, and then went on to say that I don't think it's possible for the reason I cited. Maybe I'm missing the hilarious or inconsistent part.

Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 10, 2008, 7:47 pm

Xatrei wrote:
Boogahz wrote:the fact that this comes up repeatedly along with the fact that you were responding to a quote directly was the only reason I even posted in this thread. I thought it was hilarious that you could somehow agree with what Ashur was saying and go on to do exactly what he was complaining about.
Where in the following exchange did I both agree with Ash, and then do what he's complaining about? I agreed with him that it's a nice idea, and then went on to say that I don't think it's possible for the reason I cited. Maybe I'm missing the hilarious or inconsistent part.

Xatrei wrote:
Ashur wrote:Preachy fucktards annoy me. Note this includes MOSTLY atheists. How about I keep my beliefs to myself and you agree to do the same?
I wish that was possible, because I'd greatly prefer that someone's personal beliefs were totally irrelevant to everyone else. Unfortunately, as long as one side tries to force the issue, the other side cannot just ignore it.

Yet nobody was forcing the issue but you

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 10, 2008, 7:50 pm

What issue was I forcing? Participating in a discussion is forcing the issue now? Maybe we should just get Py to pull the plug on this place after all... My comment wasn't related to the validity or lack of validity for any given set of beliefs, secular or religious. I was merely saying that I didn't think that getting either side to just keep their beliefs to themselves was realistic or achievable.