Texas says "yes!" to vigilante justice

Animale · Post by **Animale** » July 9, 2008, 1:55 am

How about this breakdown fuckwit.

Joe Horn knew his neighbors house was broken into.

He called the Police... they told him to stay inside to avoid danger to himself and others.

He WENT OUTSIDE, creating a situation that resulted in him firing 3 shots in quick succession in a residential neighborhood - so fast that the cop on the scene was afraid for his life because he was in an unmarked vehicle.

Now, was Joe Horn in danger... maybe and within a reasonable doubt - probably. Was it danger of his own creation... undoubtedly YES. Do we reward people for putting themselves in dangerous situations and shooting their way out of them, possibly endangering others including cops... apparently in Texas that's a resounding YES.

In short, he shouldn't he be made a hero because he created a dangerous situation that resulted in shots fired and bodies dropping to the floor. He should be made guilty of a firearms violation, in that he endangered himself and others by creating a hostile and, ultimately, fatal situation. If he'd stayed inside the cops would have arrested these men - they were on the fucking scene. Nobody would have gotten away with it. He did his civic duty, then stepped beyond it into the path of cops. Joe Horn is LUCKY the cop didn't cap his ass for shooting at him (if he was a black or latino man I'd wager that he'd be one dead hero, by the by). Joe Horn was STUPID, OBSTINATE, and thus created a fatal situation... and people claim he's a hero. Just astounding.

Animale

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 9, 2008, 3:55 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Acies wrote:Ultimately, I do agree with Fash on this one. Two guys killed commiting a crime, one who shot them. Realistically, there were no cameras or eyewitnesses save the defendant. And in America, it is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. There is plenty of reasonable doubt.

Bottom line, though we both know a death sentance is not appropriate for theft, they ran that risk the moment they engadged in criminal activity in Texas, where most people do own a gun.

Well said Sir. The problem comes in with some of these folks who would love to get rid of the innocent until proven guilty thing. They KNOW what happened that night and want that man to pay. It's a sickness. That elitist attitude pervades every walk of life. So damn frightening.
Your hypocrisy would be hysterical if you weren't so clueless about it.
Really? Let's break it down for you since you're having a problem with this very elementary problem.

Joe Horn knew they broke into his neighbors house.

The folks on this board, think they know about what happened when it all went down. They have conjectured about how maybe they were running away, or turning, or weren't wihtin 21 feet, or 7 feet or whatever.

The difference here is Joe Horn was there and these elitist know-it-all tools on this board weren't. A court of law found him innocent. Yet these motherfuckers know better. I'm the hypocrit? LOL

Not only do you succeed in failing to understand why you're a hypocrite, but you go ahead and illustrate it some more. Beautiful.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 9, 2008, 4:27 am

From another thread but so great (and spot on) that it deserves a repost. I'm sure I'll end up posting it many times in the months to come!

Sylvus wrote:This particular thread is an interesting microcosm of midnyte's whole posting history. He opens with a negative, trolling comment that is orthogonal to the issue at hand, moves on to accuse others of hypocrisy, follows up by railing against people being negative (thus illustrating his own hypocrisy) while acting like he's more enlightened than anyone else and then either invokes the spirit of the Big Picture or flees the thread.

Honestly I don't know why people continue to try engaging him in any sort of serious discussion. It's all quite amusing really.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 9, 2008, 9:00 am

Animale wrote: Joe Horn was STUPID, OBSTINATE, and thus created a fatal situation... and people claim he's a hero.

I have not seen anyone say he was not stupid or obstinate. I don't think he is remotely close to a hero either. But then again, with the way criminals are coddled in the US, I hope we see them shot by the thousands across the country and eliminated from society permanently. Before you fucking moronic liberal assholes start crying, I am not talking about misdemeanors or fucking speeding you imbeciles....I am talking felonies.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » July 9, 2008, 10:47 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:A court of law found him innocent.

A court of law found OJ innocent too.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 9, 2008, 10:54 am

Fash wrote: What if he was an off-duty cop?

Spang · Post by **Spang** » July 9, 2008, 10:58 am

What if the two burglars were pregnant women?

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 9, 2008, 11:18 am

Spang wrote:What if the two burglars were pregnant women?

Then he wouldn't have shot them.

miir · Post by **miir** » July 9, 2008, 11:41 am

What would Brian Boitano do?

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 9, 2008, 11:42 am

Brian Boitano would have sliced those 2 clowns into small pieces with his skates and ate them for dinner.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 9, 2008, 12:27 pm

Actually, a court did not find him innocent. A grand jury declined to hand down an indictment. There is a difference.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 9, 2008, 12:53 pm

Xatrei wrote:Actually, a court did not find him innocent. A grand jury declined to hand down an indictment. There is a difference.

Even better. Not even enough to even bother taking up the courts time. The grand jury are heroes also.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » July 9, 2008, 1:11 pm

Fash wrote:
Spang wrote:What if the two burglars were pregnant women?
Then he wouldn't have shot them.

So a person should not kill pregnant burglars? What other types of burglars shouldn't be killed?

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 9, 2008, 1:18 pm

Spang wrote:
Fash wrote:
Spang wrote:What if the two burglars were pregnant women?
Then he wouldn't have shot them.
So a person should not kill pregnant burglars? What other types of burglars shouldn't be killed?

I think it's obvious that because they were giant thugs and looked menacing is a big part of why they are dead right now, besides not obeying the man with the shotgun. Thelma and Louise wouldn't cause the same reaction. I realize you're intentionally being silly/difficult.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 9, 2008, 1:26 pm

I wonder how long it will be before ol' Pappy McKilladarkie here is found tits up, having found himself on the receiving end of vigilante 'justice'.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 9, 2008, 1:46 pm

Fuck Brian Boitano. It is all about Mary Lou Retton and the League of Southern Babtists. Now, wtf would THEY do? Huh??

As to this 'event'. As much I dislike cops, dude should have listened to the cops, who he made an effort to call for help. Although I cry no tears for deceased felons, the dumb asshole could have caused more harm than good by taking the law into his hands.

Granted, things turned out alright in an odd sort of way. However, it is that element of risk that was completely unneccessary and reckless.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » July 9, 2008, 3:36 pm

I don't know if this is the actual 911 call or not.

http://www.break.com/index/brave-neighb ... call2.html

Also, forgive me if this has already been posted.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 9, 2008, 4:05 pm

No one gives a fuck about the opinion of a 911 operator.

Since you're such a fan of alternate scenarios.....

You're wife is trapped in the house. The house is on fire. You call 911 and the operator tells you the firemen are on the way and not to go into the house.

Play that one out in your head.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » July 9, 2008, 4:10 pm

No one gives a fuck about you either. Did you listen to it?

miir · Post by **miir** » July 9, 2008, 4:12 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:You're wife is trapped in the house. The house is on fire. You call 911 and the operator tells you the firemen are on the way and not to go into the house.

You obviously don't care about your wife if your choice was to call 911 before dragging her out of a burning house.
You insensitive fuck!

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 9, 2008, 4:17 pm

I agree. Who wouldn't go and try saving their spouse before calling 911.

WORST ANALOGY EVER!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 9, 2008, 4:27 pm

Spang wrote:No one gives a fuck about you either. Did you listen to it?

Yes. Dozens of times, thank you for your interest.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 9, 2008, 4:28 pm

Aslanna wrote:I agree. Who wouldn't go and try saving their spouse before calling 911.

WORST ANALOGY EVER!

Yeah, maybe so. I'm sure there is a decent one to be made, but that was the best I could come up with.

Post by **pyrella** » July 9, 2008, 4:29 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No one gives a fuck about the opinion of a 911 operator.

Since you're such a fan of alternate scenarios.....

You're wife is trapped in the house. The house is on fire. You call 911 and the operator tells you the firemen are on the way and not to go into the house.

Play that one out in your head.

Reacting to a potentially fatal situation vs. creating one?

Post by **Sylvus** » July 9, 2008, 4:37 pm

Not to mention that the fire scenario is happening inside your house. The analogy would fit better if you noticed your neighbor's house was on fire, called 911 and they told you the fire dept. was on their way, and then you sent your wife over there to go into the house and try and get their VCR out of the living room. That's what good neighbors do!

Play that one out in your head.

miir · Post by **miir** » July 9, 2008, 4:45 pm

Oh I have one!!

You see two blacks robbing your neighbour's house so you set fire to it then call 911.
During the call your wife runs in the house to save the two blacks.
The 911 operator tells you to not go into the house.
Do you go in and rescue your wife who is rescuing the blacks?

Play that one out in your head.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » July 9, 2008, 5:38 pm

Whoah. You just blew my mind.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » July 9, 2008, 6:23 pm

Your head asplode.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 9, 2008, 7:43 pm

Sylvus wrote:Not to mention that the fire scenario is happening inside your house. The analogy would fit better if you noticed your neighbor's house was on fire, called 911 and they told you the fire dept. was on their way, and then you sent your wife over there to go into the house and try and get their VCR out of the living room. That's what good neighbors do!

Play that one out in your head.

Hmmmm...not quite it either. How about you saw two felons set your neighbors house on fire, called 911 and they told you the fire dept. was on their way, and then you went over there to go into the house and try and get their VCR out of the living room. That's what good neighbors do!

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » July 9, 2008, 10:40 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No one gives a fuck about the opinion of a 911 operator.

Since you're such a fan of alternate scenarios.....

You're wife is trapped in the house. The house is on fire. You call 911 and the operator tells you the firemen are on the way and not to go into the house.

Play that one out in your head.

What a terrible analogy.

In your scenario, inaction (and following the 911 operator's order) results in the (probable) death of a loved one.

In the Horn case, inaction (and following the 911 operator's order) results in at worst, 2 criminals getting away, and at best 2 criminals being apprehended by the police. (If you're going to speculate about them getting away and killing people tomorrow, well then it's possible your wife would run a school bus off the road tomorrow and kill 50, too).

Bojangels · Post by **Bojangels** » July 10, 2008, 3:37 am

I just saw this:

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... tm#9.43.00

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.

§ 9.43. PROTECTION OF THIRD PERSON'S PROPERTY. A person
is justified in using force or deadly force against another to
protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if,
under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the
actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force
or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful
interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or
criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection
of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third
person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he
uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent,
or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974.
Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1,
1994.

So in Texas it's legal to shoot people who are running away after they have stolen from you or someone else, even if no one is in danger. This completely changes my point of view on the case.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » July 10, 2008, 10:33 am

Right. Hence the reason for no indictment being handed down.

Whether people feel that law is right/constitutional is another question altogether.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 10, 2008, 11:27 am

Bojangels wrote:So in Texas it's legal to shoot people who are running away after they have stolen from you or someone else, even if no one is in danger. This completely changes my point of view on the case.

Does 9.42.3 or 9.43.2 figure into that? I see what you bolded, but are the other considerations necessary? Like obviously 9.42.3B does not come into play, and 9.42.3A is questionable.

Either way, I didn't realize the law was worded that way. I think that's crazy to have that law on the books. Disregarding the argument over whether or not Joe Horn was in danger, the only time deadly force should be justified is when "the use of force other than deadly force ... would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury." Including property into that is ridiculous. People are too materialistic.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 10, 2008, 11:29 am

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » July 10, 2008, 11:39 am

In my first post on this topic, I stated that it looks like this guy has the law on his side. Having a bad law on his side affects only the legal outcome of this case, and it does nothing to change the fact that what Horn did is morally repugnant in many people's view, including my own.

Since Mid seems to think pictures are a good way to communicate, here's one for him:

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 10, 2008, 12:00 pm

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » July 10, 2008, 12:55 pm

Thanks to Bojangels for providing a reason why Horn was able to do this. I now change my stance from "he had no business going out there and deserves to be punished" to "Texas is fucked up, but what can you do".

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » July 10, 2008, 2:03 pm

Here's my favorite part of that statute:

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or

So YES, you can shoot fuckers spray painting gang symbols (if it's nighttime. In the daytime I think all you can do is scowl at them).

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 10, 2008, 2:10 pm

If it wasn't so damn hot in Texas and they didn't have so many huge bugs, I would seriously consider moving there. Sounds like they have got things going in the right direction.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » July 10, 2008, 2:18 pm

stay away pls

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 10, 2008, 2:22 pm

Gzette wrote:stay away pls

Nice sentence structure. Try capitalizing and using some punctuation.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » July 10, 2008, 2:49 pm

Georgia had bigger bugs (and a LOT more humidity)

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » July 11, 2008, 1:04 pm

Nice sentence structure. Try capitalizing and using some punctuation.

Ahhhhh the fabled grammar burn. Very creative. I promise I will use proper grammar and punctuation as long as you promise to stay away. Do we have a deal? Consider my capitalization in this post an olive branch.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 11, 2008, 4:57 pm

Gzette wrote:
Nice sentence structure. Try capitalizing and using some punctuation.
Ahhhhh the fabled grammar burn. Very creative. I promise I will use proper grammar and punctuation as long as you promise to stay away. Do we have a deal? Consider my capitalization in this post an olive branch.

I don't give a shit about your grammer and punctuation. As long as you can get your point across, it's fine by me. I clearly see you wish I wasn't a participant on these boards. I don't plan on leaving any time soon. Sorry.

miir · Post by **miir** » July 11, 2008, 5:10 pm

You spelled misspelled grammar.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 11, 2008, 5:14 pm

Not to mention that in a post that he wrote, and then quoted in his own response, he says exactly the opposite of what he's writing in his response. That's a 3.3 degree of difficulty right there. I expect high scores all around on this one.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » July 11, 2008, 5:21 pm

Sometimes the diving board gets in the way.

miir · Post by **miir** » July 11, 2008, 5:39 pm

I think Midnyte might be using a random response generator for this forum.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 11, 2008, 5:48 pm

miir wrote:You spelled misspelled grammar.

I am not sure what language this was supposed to be in, but it does not form a coherent sentence in any of them.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 11, 2008, 5:52 pm

miir wrote:I think Midnyte might be using a random response generator for this forum.

I can only use Nastran through Patran. So I am not familiar with Nastran commands. In Patran, "Random Analysis Tool" can get RMS of von Misese stress response and (at least according to its documentation) cross spectral density.