U.S. motorists brave Mexico border violence for fuel

[valryte]

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Oil/ ... 619?rpc=64

"It's worth taking the risk even with the violence," said a retired California engineer named Terry, who declined to give his surname, as he filled his red Ford pick-up truck in Tijuana, over the border from San Diego. "I know they could kill me or kidnap me, but the cost of filling my tank in the United States is just too much," he said.

Nor is a recent surge in drug cartel killings -- which has scared away border tourists -- discouraging U.S. motorists.

Oh WTF. Are people that fucking stupid? Fuck the kidnappers and drug dealers, I'm gonna save me some money on gas!

"I am not budging until I get to the pump. I don't care what anyone says, I've been waiting for two hours," said Jaime Rosales from Southern California, at a gas station where buses, trucks and cars all vied to get to the pumps.

2 hours? Come on. Lets add the drive you took and the waiting in line. You could have done something else, maybe earn more money. What the hell did you save really?

Tourists who used to come for everything from dental work to prostitutes have deserted Mexican border cities as gun battles erupt in broad daylight on busy avenues and gangs dump bodies and severed heads on streets.

Ok, so the p***y is not worth it, but the gas is?

[Fash]

gas spent driving to mexico > gas savings in mexico.

there are retards all over.

[Daboohk]

gas spent driving to mexico > gas savings in mexico.

there are retards all over.

I'm not saying I agree with the premise here of driving to Mexico to save on gas (mostly due to lawlessness); however, San Diego is only 17miles from Tijuana and

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/tijuana- ... -lower-u-s
http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/retail ... chart.aspx

There are some savings there ;p

[Xatrei]

They were talking about this on NPR yesterday when I was driving home. In the story, they mentioned that violence in Juarez was becoming an issue, but there's no shortage of Americans making the trip for cheap fuel. One guy they interviewed had a big F250 diesel with a bit over 200 gallon capacity (100 gallon standard and an added 100 gallon auxiliary). He said that paid something like 4.65 a gallon at his home in El Paso, and 2.25 in Mexico. Each trip saved him 480 bucks in fuel costs. He didn't spend as much time traveling or waiting as the guy mentioned in the article above. I guess whether it's worth the trouble varies from situation to situation, because it certainly made sense for this guy from a purely financial perspective.

If I was in the Mexican government, I'd clamp down on this fast, though. Mexico lacks the refining capacity to be self sufficient with fuel production. They produce a lot of oil, but have to import a large portion of their refined petroleum products. Fuel at the pump is cheap there because it is heavily subsidized by the government. Each time this guy goes across the border to fill up his F-250, Mexico is effectively writing him a $480 check. The locals there can't be happy seeing Americans bebopping across the border in their giant gas guzzlers and helping themselves to the cheap gas that their taxes subsidize. They should probably ad a tax surcharge to any vehicle that's not registered in Mexico, and do it quickly.

[Tyek]

If I was in the Mexican government, I'd clamp down on this fast, though. Mexico lacks the refining capacity to be self sufficient with fuel production. They produce a lot of oil, but have to import a large portion of their refined petroleum products. Fuel at the pump is cheap there because it is heavily subsidized by the government. Each time this guy goes across the border to fill up his F-250, Mexico is effectively writing him a $480 check. The locals there can't be happy seeing Americans bebopping across the border in their giant gas guzzlers and helping themselves to the cheap gas that their taxes subsidize. They should probably ad a tax surcharge to any vehicle that's not registered in Mexico, and do it quickly.

Do you know how much people in Texas, California, shit most any state in the US, pays so some family from Mexico gets free health care, free schooling, etc...? I am guessing Mexico wins this trade off in a landslide.

[Xatrei]

The chief difference being that resident aliens here are actually contributing to the economy and both directly and indirectly paying into the tax base of the national, state and local governments involved. They're not getting "free education." The property, sales and other taxes that they pay fund school systems. That's not to say that there are not some abuses or gaps in regulations that need to be addressed, but these two situations are not the same. Some asshole in El Paso crossing the border just to buy Mexico's cheap gas (perish the thought of actually adjusting his consumption!) does nothing to contribute to Mexico's economy or tax base. He's just helping himself to 480 bucks from people poorer than he is.

[Nick]

Wait, what? The US pays for Mexican healthcare and education?

[Siji]

Yours too you commie.

[Fairweather Pure]

Nothing is free.

[Aslanna]

Except for freedom.

[Hesten]

Lol, i posted in a thread once how in 20 years, you would see US people sneaking across the border to Mexico and not the other way around.
I guess i was wrong in the timeline, it already started

[Spang]

Except for freedom.

Freedom costs a buck 'o five.

[Siji]

Nothing is free.

Aslanna has the loose booty..

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The chief difference being that resident aliens here are actually contributing to the economy and both directly and indirectly paying into the tax base of the national, state and local governments involved. They're not getting "free education." The property, sales and other taxes that they pay fund school systems. That's not to say that there are not some abuses or gaps in regulations that need to be addressed, but these two situations are not the same. Some asshole in El Paso crossing the border just to buy Mexico's cheap gas (perish the thought of actually adjusting his consumption!) does nothing to contribute to Mexico's economy or tax base. He's just helping himself to 480 bucks from people poorer than he is.

Typical liberal. You fail to understand that ilegals send half the money they make here (that they are not paying taxes on to start with) back to family in Mexico, thus removing it entirely from our economy. So they spend their money here and pay taxes on what? Gas? Food...oops no taxes on food! Clothes maybe. They do stuff 20 people into an apartment or house. All in all, they take OUT more money frmo the economy than they pay in with their sales taxes.

[miir]

The chief difference being that resident aliens here are actually contributing to the economy and both directly and indirectly paying into the tax base of the national, state and local governments involved. They're not getting "free education." The property, sales and other taxes that they pay fund school systems. That's not to say that there are not some abuses or gaps in regulations that need to be addressed, but these two situations are not the same. Some asshole in El Paso crossing the border just to buy Mexico's cheap gas (perish the thought of actually adjusting his consumption!) does nothing to contribute to Mexico's economy or tax base. He's just helping himself to 480 bucks from people poorer than he is.

Typical liberal. You fail to understand that ilegals send half the money they make here (that they are not paying taxes on to start with) back to family in Mexico, thus removing it entirely from our economy. So they spend their money here and pay taxes on what? Gas? Food...oops no taxes on food! Clothes maybe. They do stuff 20 people into an apartment or house. All in all, they take OUT more money frmo the economy than they pay in with their sales taxes.

Typical conservative.
You fail to see the big picture.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

There is no "bigger picture" you tool. LEGAL immigrants we do not have as much of a problem with because they ARE paying taxes. We do lose some money from our economy when they send it back to Mexico. I really doubt the Mexicans are then rushing across the border to shop at Walmart with it....which of course would help to fund China, but that is another story.

[Siji]

Typical conservative.
You fail to see the big picture.

You sir have 2 minutes, please explain your position.

[miir]

Typical conservative.
You fail to see the big picture.

You sir have 2 minutes, please explain your position.

I got nothin' man... just a sad attempt at a troll.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Typical French. Give up as soon as a battle starts.

[miir]

Typical French. Give up as soon as a battle starts.

Typical... ah fuck it.
I still got nothin

[Xatrei]

I'm not going to get into a big discussion on this subject because we've been down this path before, and we all know how such a "discussion" will end. I will say just a few things, though, futility of the effort be damend.

In the metro area here, we have a pretty large population of Hispanic immigrants, many of whom are undocumented. The number is increasing fairly rapidly. I form my opinions based on what I read and what observe in my own part of the world. We're not a border town, obviously, so we don't have to deal with some of the issues specific to them. Your side of the argument generally paints with a super-sized brush, oversimplifying the situation, citing the behavior of a minority of these these people as the norm and dismissing the real contributions of immigrant workers, documented or not, to the economy.

Many of the undocumented immigrants work legitimate jobs and pay taxes for which they receive no benefits and no representation using bogus or stolen numbers. I'm not saying that's right, because it's not, (going to go ahead and emphasize that now so that you don't miss it later). Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, there are taxes paid. I can take you to apartments that are packed with people sharing a living situation, but I can also take you to even more where this is not the case. The places where there are 10+ people living in an apartment are single men sharing space, not families. There are many more apartments filled with Mexican and other Hispanic immigrant families that spend most of their money just getting by here. Sure, a lot of money is sent back to relatives in their home countries, but a lot of it stays here, too.

The rent these families pay cover property taxes that fund local schools. The taxes on the goods and food they buy fund the services they use (yes, we pay taxes on food here). These people are making and spending money all over the area, and that fuels the growth of businesses that provide goods and services to the immigrant community. I see Suzy Home-maker down the street selling a couple thousand dollars worth of her family's old discards to these immigrants on a Saturday garage sale. I watch as that money funds her shopping trips to buy new crap for her household that they don't need, indirectly fueling the economy and putting more tax dollars into the pot.

I'm not saying that the system is perfect or that there aren't massive changes needed to the way these things are handled - that's a whole separate issue. I do think that when you consider the larger picture, it's fairly clear that the notion that undocumented workers here are contributing little or nothing to the economy or tax base is pretty hollow.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I'm not going to get into a big discussion on this subject because we've been down this path before, and we all know how such a "discussion" will end. I will say just a few things, though, futility of the effort be damend.

In the metro area here, we have a pretty large population of Hispanic immigrants, many of whom are undocumented. The number is increasing fairly rapidly. I form my opinions based on what I read and what observe in my own part of the world. We're not a border town, obviously, so we don't have to deal with some of the issues specific to them. Your side of the argument generally paints with a super-sized brush, oversimplifying the situation, citing the behavior of a minority of these these people as the norm and dismissing the real contributions of immigrant workers, documented or not, to the economy.

Many of the undocumented immigrants work legitimate jobs and pay taxes for which they receive no benefits and no representation using bogus or stolen numbers. I'm not saying that's right, because it's not, (going to go ahead and emphasize that now so that you don't miss it later). Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, there are taxes paid. I can take you to apartments that are packed with people sharing a living situation, but I can also take you to even more where this is not the case. The places where there are 10+ people living in an apartment are single men sharing space, not families. There are many more apartments filled with Mexican and other Hispanic immigrant families that spend most of their money just getting by here. Sure, a lot of money is sent back to relatives in their home countries, but a lot of it stays here, too.

The rent these families pay cover property taxes that fund local schools. The taxes on the goods and food they buy fund the services they use (yes, we pay taxes on food here). These people are making and spending money all over the area, and that fuels the growth of businesses that provide goods and services to the immigrant community. I see Suzy Home-maker down the street selling a couple thousand dollars worth of her family's old discards to these immigrants on a Saturday garage sale. I watch as that money funds her shopping trips to buy new crap for her household that they don't need, indirectly fueling the economy and putting more tax dollars into the pot.

I'm not saying that the system is perfect or that there aren't massive changes needed to the way these things are handled - that's a whole separate issue. I do think that when you consider the larger picture, it's fairly clear that the notion that undocumented workers here are contributing little or nothing to the economy or tax base is pretty hollow.

Here is where you fail. The ones paying the taxes are legal immigrants, many of whom have work visas and pay taxes, follow laws, etc. Illegals cannot have a valid Social Security number or be on file with the IRS because they are not here. If they DO file, then immigration rounds them up, fines the employers, and files charges like you have seen with a few companies of late. I can tell you from experience that there ARE problems here with the ILLEGALS sicne they will break any law they need to break to avoid being caught here. That includes hit and run, which has happened to me personally by illegals and has been a HUGE problem in one of our most populous and affluent suburbs. The police will tell you that up front when they arrive that the odds are against catching them even if you have a license plate number. Soooo....my insurance rates go up if I make a claim thanks to your "economy enhancing" pals from down south.

To reiterate: Legal immigrants = fine
Illegal immigrants = die in a fire

[Tyek]

I think he was referring to taxes paid from buying goods. Those taxes do not come close to funding the schools and health care systems they utilize though.

[Siji]

One of my personal problems with people moving to this country from others, mainly Mexico or Cuba, is the lack of them 'becoming Americans' upon moving to America. They instead try to bring their home country to this country and expect everyone else around them to adapt. That's just wrong in my opinion. Learn the language (by far my biggest pet peeve in life). Follow the laws. Contribute to society other than just "doing jobs nobody else wants" (a bullshit argument if ever there was one).

People are always talking about how pompous American tourists are when they go to other countries expecting them to be like home - imagine how it is here with all of the immigrants that do the same thing, but on a permanent basis.

[Xatrei]

Here is where you fail. The ones paying the taxes are legal immigrants, many of whom have work visas and pay taxes, follow laws, etc. Illegals cannot have a valid Social Security number or be on file with the IRS because they are not here. If they DO file, then immigration rounds them up, fines the employers, and files charges like you have seen with a few companies of late. I can tell you from experience that there ARE problems here with the ILLEGALS sicne they will break any law they need to break to avoid being caught here. That includes hit and run, which has happened to me personally by illegals and has been a HUGE problem in one of our most populous and affluent suburbs. The police will tell you that up front when they arrive that the odds are against catching them even if you have a license plate number. Soooo....my insurance rates go up if I make a claim thanks to your "economy enhancing" pals from down south.

To reiterate: Legal immigrants = fine
Illegal immigrants = die in a fire

I think you failed to understand my point because I'm not entirely disagreeing with what you say. I do think that things are being overstated a bit, though, particularly with the ongoing effort to confuse exceptional issues (criminal activity, hit and run, 20 people in a 2 br apt, etc.) with what's normal. These things happen, no doubt, and they're not even necessarily uncommon, but that doesn't translate into being true for the majority of situations. I'm especially taking exception with the assertion that undocumented workers don't contribute anything to the tax base or the economy. You're fixating on income taxes and other payroll taxes withheld from paychecks. For people making relatively little money, income taxes make up a fairly small amount of their total tax burden. While many ("many" != "all" since you seemed to miss that the first time) undocumented workers do pay taxes using falsified information, you're correct that many do not pay because they're working off the books. Even so, at their income level, the loss of tax revenue is tiny, and that doesn't invalidate other contributions. Those people are still paying a lot of taxes in the form of property taxes (through their rent payments), sales taxes, fuel taxes, etc.

As I said before, there are plenty of real issues that need to be addressed, and things are by no means "OK" as they stand now. I just disagree - strongly - with the notion that there's no contribution at all on the part of the undocumented. There are a lot of things that need to be shored up with regards to income taxes, payroll taxes and SSA withholdings, and many other rules / regulations. We disagree profoundly, I'm sure on how these things need to be addressed, but again, that's not at all the point that I was making.

[Noysyrump]

Two bucks for gas?... I just might end my 15 year boycott on Tiajuana.


Seriosly to compare the loss of Mexico's revenue from gas sales, to what we loose with Illegal imagrants is gotta be the stupidest thing I've ever seen printed. Especially from you X. Jeebus Christo.

[Xyun]

Gonna have to agree with noysy and kilmoll on this one. Although I do think some illegals are paying taxes, even income tax because the IRS system and the immigration system are not as intertwined as kilmoll assumes. Nonetheless, the amount of money going to Mexico and/or Mexicans from Americans far far far outweighs a very small percentage of people crossing the border to get gas for half price. This entire situation is pathetic really. We need comprehensive energy reform. I bought a motorcycle for $3.5k. At the current price of gas and the fuel economy of my car, the bike will pay for itself in less than 30,000 miles.

[Xatrei]

If you bother to actually read what I said, you'll note that I never said that illegal aliens as a group were paying anything close to their full share of the tax burden. In fact, I readily admitted (twice even) that there are gaps in the regulations and plenty of abuses. I merely took exception with the often raised contention that they don't contribute anything at all to the economy or the tax base because that's demonstrably false. If the contention had been that they don't pay enough, then we'd have had an immediate agreement. None of that, however, is relevant to my original point, which was that Mexico should move to curtail fuel sales to border crossing Americans. Mexico has every right in the world to protect their interests. What we do to protect our interests along the border or how we choose to address the immigration issue are not really relevant to Mexico's fuel subsidy issues.