We need more government!!!!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

http://www.startribune.com/politics/nat ... r=Homepage

Congress moves to privatize money-losing restaurants in Capitol, Senate office buildings
By JIM ABRAMS , Associated Press

June 9, 2008

WASHINGTON - The famed bean soup served in Senate restaurants is made up of dried navy beans, smoked ham hocks, onions and a million-dollar tab for the taxpayer.

That menu for financial distress could be about to change as the Senate, following the lead taken by the House more than 20 years ago, moves to privatize the restaurants, coffee shops and cafeterias located in the Capitol and Senate office buildings.

The Senate last week passed a bill authorizing Senate restaurants, now run by the Architect of the Capitol, to go private, ending months of back-and-forth between Democrats appalled by the operation's money-losing ways and other Democrats worried that restaurant workers would get thrown out like the ham bones.

The measure is expected to win easy approval in the House, where privately run restaurants and food courts run profits and draw good crowds every day of House members and employees, tourists and disaffected Senate staff.

By comparison, wrote Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., who as chairman of the Senate Rules Committee has spearheaded the privatization drive, the Senate restaurants last year cost taxpayers $1.3 million with food quality and service that is "noticeably sub par."

She noted that in budget years 2003 through 2007, Senate restaurants racked up deficits of $4.7 million while the House received commissions from the operator estimated at about $1.2 million.

Losses could top $2 million this year, and the restaurants will need a transfer of $250,000 from the Senate's emergency funds in July to make payroll, she wrote in a letter to other senators.

A private review commissioned by Feinstein found that the Senate operation had no strategy for improvement other than price increases. She said new menu items "have not been remotely reflective of the rapid change in the food industry whether it be health and nutrition or ethnic foods."

A small Senate take-out on the first floor of the Capitol offers, with its hot dogs and sandwiches, candy bars, pain medicine and, until recently, cigarettes. The sit-down restaurant that once adjoined it has closed, becoming new staff office space. With that, there is no public dining space inside the Capitol; senators and their guests can still eat in an ornate dining room with a staff dressed in jackets and ties.

But Feinstein's efforts to change the system ran into obstacles from four Democratic senators: Robert Menendez of New Jersey, Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, Barbara Mikulski of Maryland and Sherrod Brown of Ohio, who questioned whether current workers would face lower wages, reduced benefits and be deprived of union representation.

Feinstein said she was "somewhat dismayed" by the resistance. She stressed that under the proposed contract with Restaurant Associates, the New York-based company that runs the House restaurants and will operate the 550-seat cafeteria in the underground Capitol Visitor Center slated to open this fall, current employees will continue at the same basic rate of pay and receive the same level of health insurance and retirement benefits.

Those not wishing to switch to the new system would be eligible for a voluntary buyout of up to $25,000. She said 47 of the 96 permanent restaurant employees are expected to take the buyout.

The four senators signed off, saying they were pleased that Restaurant Associates was willing to commit in the contract to union neutrality and a reasonable annual cost-of-living adjustment.

Restaurant Associates did not return calls seeking comment, and it was unclear if they were committed to serving bean soup in the new Senate restaurants.

___

The bill is S. 2967.

On the Net:

Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov

Oh you silly Democrat voters will never get it. They can't even run this, but you trust them to run your healthcare, regulate your temperature in your home, etc.? *sigh*

[Animale]

<shrug> If Canada, most of Europe, Japan, etc. can do socialized medicine successfully - then saying that the U.S.of A cannot do it is kind of putting ourselves down. My guess is that if/when it happens we'll find some new wrinkle that will make it more successful than those other countries.

Unless, of course, the opponents of socialized medicine sabotage it.

Animale

Edit to add a bit more substance:

The think about socialized medicine is that it is something we really HAVE to do so our companies can maintain competitiveness with companies based in countries that have socialized medicine. This is NOT a payout to the poor people, its actually a massive payout to small business, and a cost-control measure for big business. Competition in the health insurance industry has obviously failed to keep costs down for a variety of reasons, and our companies are paying for it out the wazoo. With socialized medicine the cost to companies will be known up front, and huge increases can be controlled somewhat in the short and long term in ways not available in the open market format.

Basically, we are going to be left behind if we remain the only country not to control medical costs through socialized medicine. Now, we just need to figure out the best way to do it so the impact of it is the best for everybody, from the corner market salesman to the the factory worker to the airline pilot to the CEO. That's going to be the hard part, but saying that socialized medicine is doomed to failure because Congress can't run a hot-dog stand is just stupid.

Animale

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

<shrug> If Canada, most of Europe, Japan, etc. can do socialized medicine successfully - then saying that the U.S.of A cannot do it is kind of putting ourselves down. My guess is that if/when it happens we'll find some new wrinkle that will make it more successful than those other countries.

Unless, of course, the opponents of socialized medicine sabotage it.

Animale

http://www.theadvocates.org/freeman/8903lemi.html

http://www.cato.org/pubs/catosletter/ca ... erv3n1.pdf

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articl ... id=1913103

Plenty of more out there. Two sides to every story Animale. It isn't always greener on the other side.

[Fairweather Pure]

We already have socialized health care in the US. It just needs to be expanded.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

We already have socialized health care in the US. It just needs to be expanded.

So, you have faith the government, even with it's shitty record of running anything, will run this one thing better than it currenty runs? We have a fantastic level of quality when it comes to healthcare. Prices hurt, but the quality is fantastic. You're willing to take a chance on Change.....for what?

[Fairweather Pure]

I see you have yourself whipped into a nice little mouth frothing frenzy. I would be more than happy to discuss the pros and cons of socializing health care in the US, but not with you. It would be more productive banging my head against a wall.

[Xyun]

What a big fucking joke you are Midnyte. It amazes me how fucking ignorant you are. You want to attack social programs like health care when it is your fucking party who has now become the goddamn socialist movement but NOT for Americans but rather Iraqis. Are you fucking kidding me???? FUCK YOU. Please stop fucking LYING you cunt.

One reason why the Keys to the White House, which have correctly predicted the popular-vote results of every presidential election since 1984, so strongly point to a Democratic victory this year is that the conservative era that began in 1980 is coming to an end. This is explained in my new book, White Protestant Nation: The Rise of the American Conservative Movement. As illustrated by the debate over immigration policies the movement is divided between pro-business and social conservatives. As illustrated by the persistent appeal of the once unknown Ron Paul conservatives are divided between conservatives with a libertarian bent and big government conservatives who have contradicted the ideals of limited government, fiscal responsibility, individual freedom, and states’ rights. During the Bush years, conservatives have built the biggest, most expensive, and most intrusive national government in the history of the Republic. Despite their disdain for social engineering by government, the Bush administration has undertaken in Iraq the most daunting and expensive social engineering project since the Reconstruction of the South. According to the Keys to the White House, conservative disarray is reflected in Republican midterm election losses, a lack of positive domestic accomplishments, setbacks abroad, and the failure to find an inspirational nominee.

I'm really going to enjoy this election, more so than I enjoy blowing your ridiculous ignorant bullshit pseudo-arguments out of the water.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Dude.....really? You're quoting somone's opinion. An opinion of which he is counting the Iraqi war effort as a socialized program? ROFL

[Animalor]

Cause atrocious wait times for an ER visit, months delay for surgery or potentially early-detection tests as well as an almost impossibility to find a family doctor are an example that every country should try to emulate.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

Cause atrocious wait times for an ER visit, months delay for surgery or potentially early-detection tests as well as an almost impossibility to find a family doctor are an example that every country should try to emulate.

as opposed to a) having to wait for 8 hours in one of two free clinics in your metropolis to get treated for an acute burn trauma or b) going to a hospital without health insurance and having to pay more than you make in a month to treat it? Yeah, I'd rather wait 3 hours (the most I've ever waited in a Danish ER and that was for a sprained ankle on a friday night with victims of violence, carcrashes and general tomfoolery - understandably - getting bumped ahead of me in the queue). But then it's not my country, so what does my opinion matter.

I cannot understand why someone can be against comprehensive health care, though. It makes no sense to my communist mind.

[Canelek]

Shouldn't that be communist?

[Animalor]

Cause atrocious wait times for an ER visit, months delay for surgery or potentially early-detection tests as well as an almost impossibility to find a family doctor are an example that every country should try to emulate.

as opposed to a) having to wait for 8 hours in one of two free clinics in your metropolis to get treated for an acute burn trauma or b) going to a hospital without health insurance and having to pay more than you make in a month to treat it? Yeah, I'd rather wait 3 hours (the most I've ever waited in a Danish ER and that was for a sprained ankle on a friday night with victims of violence, carcrashes and general tomfoolery - understandably - getting bumped ahead of me in the queue). But then it's not my country, so what does my opinion matter.

I cannot understand why someone can be against comprehensive health care, though. It makes no sense to my communist mind.

Didn't say I was against it. I'm just saying that there are drawbacks to a universal healthcare system.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Cause atrocious wait times for an ER visit, months delay for surgery or potentially early-detection tests as well as an almost impossibility to find a family doctor are an example that every country should try to emulate.

as opposed to a) having to wait for 8 hours in one of two free clinics in your metropolis to get treated for an acute burn trauma or b) going to a hospital without health insurance and having to pay more than you make in a month to treat it? Yeah, I'd rather wait 3 hours (the most I've ever waited in a Danish ER and that was for a sprained ankle on a friday night with victims of violence, carcrashes and general tomfoolery - understandably - getting bumped ahead of me in the queue). But then it's not my country, so what does my opinion matter.

I cannot understand why someone can be against comprehensive health care, though. It makes no sense to my communist mind.

Didn't say I was against it. I'm just saying that there are drawbacks to a universal healthcare system.

As did I. God forbid you point that out though.

[Animale]

Oh you silly Democrat voters will never get it. They can't even run this, but you trust them to run your healthcare, regulate your temperature in your home, etc.? *sigh*

To this?

As did I. God forbid you point that out though.

Sure sounds like you are against it in any form whatsoever. If you are just pointing out drawbacks, then why be universally against it? Can't good ol' American ingenuity solve the problem that exists of skyrocketing costs and limited coverage for most by improving on systems that have been proven in a multitude of countries to actually control costs and improve coverage for most?

Or do you prefer to watch the current system continue to flounder until it crashes under its own weight and then pick up the pieces? Very forward thinking and all big picturey!

Animale

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'd love to have such a thing, but no I do not trust the US Government to do it right. Those pushing for it to happen ASAP point to these other countries as examples of how it can work, yet there are so many examples of how it does not work there. Just as many examples from people in this country who try to say our current system doesn't work.

[Xyun]

Dude.....really? You're quoting somone's opinion. An opinion of which he is counting the Iraqi war effort as a socialized program? ROFL

And there you have it. Your magnificent stupidity cannot distinguish between opinion and fact. Please enlighten the rest of us as to which part of that quote is untrue, your pretentiousness. Because when facts are stated, it doesn't fucking matter who stated them, whether it happens to be a fucking expert on the subject or a moronic armchair opinionazi such as yourself.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Fact doesn't equal opinion and a war effort doesn't count as a scoialized program. You're wrong. I wish you could admit it so we can discuss this topic further. I'm sorry you are incapable of that.

[Animale]

The think about socialized medicine is that it is something we really HAVE to do so our companies can maintain competitiveness with companies based in countries that have socialized medicine. This is NOT a payout to the poor people, its actually a massive payout to small business, and a cost-control measure for big business. Competition in the health insurance industry has obviously failed to keep costs down for a variety of reasons, and our companies are paying for it out the wazoo. With socialized medicine the cost to companies will be known up front, and huge increases can be controlled somewhat in the short and long term in ways not available in the open market format.

Basically, we are going to be left behind if we remain the only country not to control medical costs through socialized medicine. Now, we just need to figure out the best way to do it so the impact of it is the best for everybody, from the corner market salesman to the the factory worker to the airline pilot to the CEO. That's going to be the hard part, but saying that socialized medicine is doomed to failure because Congress can't run a hot-dog stand is just stupid.

Ok all Mr. High and Mighty... how do you respond to this big picture point?

Animale

[Al]

Dude.....really? You're quoting somone's opinion. An opinion of which he is counting the Iraqi war effort as a socialized program? ROFL

And there you have it. Your magnificent stupidity cannot distinguish between opinion and fact. Please enlighten the rest of us as to which part of that quote is untrue, your pretentiousness. Because when facts are stated, it doesn't fucking matter who stated them, whether it happens to be a fucking expert on the subject or a moronic armchair opinionazi such as yourself.

I came here to essentially say this, although you said it with slightly less tact. I am still boggled by how the reconstruction, both ephemerally and not (so as to say that buildings fall down, ideas take a bit more effort), cannot be seen as a social engineering program under the wing of the United States government. We are footing a large portion of the bill, and they are enacting massive social reforms under our tutelage, to include socialized healthcare and welfare. Explain to me how this isn't an excercise in social reform for the current administration (and, by proxy, every subsequent administration until the issue is entirely resolved).

Of course, you DID substitute "socialized program" for "social engineering", Midnyte, and in my opinion there is an extraordinary difference between those two terms. One term includes welfare, where another includes the process that brought about welfare, and welfare reform, but not welfare itself.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Dude.....really? You're quoting somone's opinion. An opinion of which he is counting the Iraqi war effort as a socialized program? ROFL

And there you have it. Your magnificent stupidity cannot distinguish between opinion and fact. Please enlighten the rest of us as to which part of that quote is untrue, your pretentiousness. Because when facts are stated, it doesn't fucking matter who stated them, whether it happens to be a fucking expert on the subject or a moronic armchair opinionazi such as yourself.

I came here to essentially say this, although you said it with slightly less tact. I am still boggled by how the reconstruction, both ephemerally and not (so as to say that buildings fall down, ideas take a bit more effort), cannot be seen as a social engineering program under the wing of the United States government. We are footing a large portion of the bill, and they are enacting massive social reforms under our tutelage, to include socialized healthcare and welfare. Explain to me how this isn't an excercise in social reform for the current administration (and, by proxy, every subsequent administration until the issue is entirely resolved).

Of course, you DID substitute "socialized program" for "social engineering", Midnyte, and in my opinion there is an extraordinary difference between those two terms. One term includes welfare, where another includes the process that brought about welfare, and welfare reform, but not welfare itself.

I agree entirely with your statement. They are two totally different things.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Cause atrocious wait times for an ER visit, months delay for surgery or potentially early-detection tests as well as an almost impossibility to find a family doctor are an example that every country should try to emulate.

as opposed to a) having to wait for 8 hours in one of two free clinics in your metropolis to get treated for an acute burn trauma or b) going to a hospital without health insurance and having to pay more than you make in a month to treat it? Yeah, I'd rather wait 3 hours (the most I've ever waited in a Danish ER and that was for a sprained ankle on a friday night with victims of violence, carcrashes and general tomfoolery - understandably - getting bumped ahead of me in the queue). But then it's not my country, so what does my opinion matter.

I cannot understand why someone can be against comprehensive health care, though. It makes no sense to my communist mind.

You just do not comprehend the fat, lazy, Walmart shopping, American mindset. Their motto is "if it is free, it is for me!". Once healthcare is socialized, you are going to be on a longer waiting list than if Catherine Bell decided to take on every guy that lined up to nail her. I don't truly think anyone could see the true attitudes of the people here without living here for an extended period.....and the people who will be clogging up the pipe on this whole debacle are going to be the ones who are paying NOTHING towards it. Of course this all fits right in with the Democrat party line....let the people that are not lazy foot the bill and raise their taxes so more people can sit and sponge off of it and pump out more kids they cannot support so they can get higher welfare checks.

Yea....Obama really will be for change....every last bit of change out of your pocket.

[Nick]

Why is everyone falling for such an obvious troll?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Why is everyone falling for such an obvious troll?

You can sit and pout in the corner or you can join in on this conversation. Show us you are capable of being more than a troll who goes around calling people trolls. Please. Put the anger aside and contribute. Any conversation can benefit from different points of view. Share with us, yours.

[Funkmasterr]

im drinking a turtle mocha from caribou coffee right now and theres a big fucking storm coming

[Fash]

i like turtles!

[Bubba Grizz]

But what about the Navy Bean Soup???

[Aslanna]

Yea....Obama really will be for change....every last bit of change out of your pocket.

As opposed to an endless war in Iraq... which I am sure is much cheaper despite costing what.. 12 billions dollars per month? NIce fearmongering though.

Why is everyone falling for such an obvious troll?

Because they are dumb. That's the only explanation I can come up with as to why they fall for it again and again.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Yea....Obama really will be for change....every last bit of change out of your pocket.

As opposed to an endless war in Iraq... which I am sure is much cheaper despite costing what.. 12 billions dollars per month? NIce fearmongering though.

Why is everyone falling for such an obvious troll?

Because they are dumb. That's the only explanation I can come up with as to why they fall for it again and again.

I'm sorry, you're incapable of seeing we have had a nice conversation here. But you keep up your revisionist nonsense.

[Animalor]

Sad to see another worthwhile debate devolve to partisan politics..

[Funkmasterr]

But what about the Navy Bean Soup???

i dont think ive had the privilege of trying this soup you speak of. it is raining really hard here now and there is lightning and loud thunder and its kinda freaky. if my car gets hailed on im gonna be pissed . i should have parked inside today

[Aslanna]

Sad to see another worthwhile debate devolve to partisan politics..

Are you kidding? That's what the first post was all about.

[Fash]

We all get frustrated and vent about certain things... I know you're capable of seeing through the frustration and addressing the point.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Yea....Obama really will be for change....every last bit of change out of your pocket.

As opposed to an endless war in Iraq... which I am sure is much cheaper despite costing what.. 12 billions dollars per month? NIce fearmongering though.
.

Wow. I did not know that we had an either/or choice to make between those 2 expenditures. You really are a moronic twat aren't you?

[Aslanna]

You couldn't be more wrong. I'm sorry for you that you feel that way.

[Xatrei]

At this stage, it's a waste of time to have a debate over whether a Canadian or British style health care system would be a good thing for the US. There is not going to be government run or socialized medicine. It's just not going to happen, but it sure is a popular bogeyman to invoke. Even among the (alleged) left, there hasn't been a push for this type of change since the mid 90's. The latest incarnation is more akin to the German system (but still not even as close to good as that one) in which everyone will be required to obtain health insurance either from a private insurer or by opting into medicare. Those that cannot afford insurance on their own will be subsidized by the government. The for-profit health care, insurance and pharmaceutical industries will still go full steam ahead, each extracting their exorbitant share from the citizen. This is a pathetic substitute for Universal Health care, and the insanely-conservative and not-quite-as-conservative parties continue to disappoint.


Also, Kilmoll, you really are a mouth-breathing, ignorant, brain-damaged fuck. Sometimes you make shitbrains like Midnyte and Noysyrump look like fucking Einstein and Hawking. The Iraq invasion and occupation were choices, you dolt. We didn't need to go there, as a nation we chose to go there whether by outright cooperation with this administration, or by not opposing it strongly enough. Every wasted life, whether Iraqi, American or one of the other nationalities that's been drawn into either side of the conflict, and every penny spent on the conflict has been an incredible waste. The only people that have benefited from this fiasco have been the oil producers of the world and the Chinese.

[Chidoro]

i like turtles!

Do you?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

At this stage, it's a waste of time to have a debate over whether a Canadian or British style health care system would be a good thing for the US. There is not going to be government run or socialized medicine. It's just not going to happen, but it sure is a popular bogeyman to invoke. Even among the (alleged) left, there hasn't been a push for this type of change since the mid 90's. The latest incarnation is more akin to the German system (but still not even as close to good as that one) in which everyone will be required to obtain health insurance either from a private insurer or by opting into medicare. Those that cannot afford insurance on their own will be subsidized by the government. The for-profit health care, insurance and pharmaceutical industries will still go full steam ahead, each extracting their exorbitant share from the citizen. This is a pathetic substitute for Universal Health care, and the insanely-conservative and not-quite-as-conservative parties continue to disappoint.


Also, Kilmoll, you really are a mouth-breathing, ignorant, brain-damaged fuck. Sometimes you make shitbrains like Midnyte and Noysyrump look like fucking Einstein and Hawking. The Iraq invasion and occupation were choices, you dolt. We didn't need to go there, as a nation we chose to go there whether by outright cooperation with this administration, or by not opposing it strongly enough. Every wasted life, whether Iraqi, American or one of the other nationalities that's been drawn into either side of the conflict, and every penny spent on the conflict has been an incredible waste. The only people that have benefited from this fiasco have been the oil producers of the world and the Chinese.

Let me teach you some reading comprehension imbecile.

As opposed to an endless war in Iraq... which I am sure is much cheaper despite costing what.. 12 billions dollars per month? NIce fearmongering though.

Now when I am talking about an either/or choice, it was in response to your twin sister's idiotic assertation that we had a choice between blowing up brownies and covering with a national health care plan. In the future, I will try to remember that you do not understand anything unless it is thoroughly spelled out.

[Funkmasterr]

At this stage, it's a waste of time to have a debate over whether a Canadian or British style health care system would be a good thing for the US. There is not going to be government run or socialized medicine. It's just not going to happen, but it sure is a popular bogeyman to invoke. Even among the (alleged) left, there hasn't been a push for this type of change since the mid 90's. The latest incarnation is more akin to the German system (but still not even as close to good as that one) in which everyone will be required to obtain health insurance either from a private insurer or by opting into medicare. Those that cannot afford insurance on their own will be subsidized by the government. The for-profit health care, insurance and pharmaceutical industries will still go full steam ahead, each extracting their exorbitant share from the citizen. This is a pathetic substitute for Universal Health care, and the insanely-conservative and not-quite-as-conservative parties continue to disappoint.


Also, Kilmoll, you really are a mouth-breathing, ignorant, brain-damaged fuck. Sometimes you make shitbrains like Midnyte and Noysyrump look like fucking Einstein and Hawking. The Iraq invasion and occupation were choices, you dolt. We didn't need to go there, as a nation we chose to go there whether by outright cooperation with this administration, or by not opposing it strongly enough. Every wasted life, whether Iraqi, American or one of the other nationalities that's been drawn into either side of the conflict, and every penny spent on the conflict has been an incredible waste. The only people that have benefited from this fiasco have been the oil producers of the world and the Chinese.

Let me teach you some reading comprehension imbecile.

As opposed to an endless war in Iraq... which I am sure is much cheaper despite costing what.. 12 billions dollars per month? NIce fearmongering though.

Now when I am talking about an either/or choice, it was in response to your twin sister's idiotic assertation that we had a choice between blowing up brownies and covering with a national health care plan. In the future, I will try to remember that you do not understand anything unless it is thoroughly spelled out.

i thought i was the only person that realized this about "his twin sister" lololol

too funny

[Aslanna]

It's about the facts. Stop with the symbolism over substance. Speak about the revisionist nonsense if you can in an adult fashion or go hang out in the general forum and flame someone.

[Xatrei]

Now when I am talking about an either/or choice, it was in response to your twin sister's idiotic assertation that we had a choice between blowing up brownies and covering with a national health care plan. In the future, I will try to remember that you do not understand anything unless it is thoroughly spelled out.

When we choose to squander vast amounts of money (to say nothing of the lives lost or ruined) on an unjust and immoral occupation of another country, we choose not to spend our resources on other priorities. When we chose one of your fellow mouth-breathers as our president for a second time, this country chose to ignore any other issues, domestic or otherwise, in favor of continuing to pursue this misguided adventure in Iraq.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I understand where you are coming from Xat, but don't forget we haven't had an attack since 9/11. Many have said it would be hard for them to focus on two wars at a time. So, it is easy for us to say the war was stupid and has no benefit, because we have had the luxury of walking about in America with no attacks. We also, have the luxury of not knowing what long term sucesses may come from this war in Iraq down the road in the next 10-20 years. For all we know, this may very well be the catalyst to a great a properous life for the common man and woman of Iraq and the surrounding area.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The health care stupidity has been going on since the 90's. Last I checked, the Iraq invasion did not take place until some point after the 90's. There are PLENTY of departments and wasteful expenditures we could target that would save the taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Throwing Iraq out there as the reason we cannot afford other programs is like blaming herpes for lung cancer.

[Funkmasterr]

I understand where you are coming from Xat, but don't forget we haven't had an attack since 9/11. Many have said it would be hard for them to focus on two wars at a time. So, it is easy for us to say the war was stupid and has no benefit, because we have had the luxury of walking about in America with no attacks. We also, have the luxury of not knowing what long term sucesses may come from this war in Iraq down the road in the next 10-20 years. For all we know, this may very well be the catalyst to a great a properous life for the common man and woman of Iraq and the surrounding area.

Stop talking about the long term. The only thing these people care about is what is tangible to them right this second, the only future they are interested in is the Disney future Obama is painting for their feeble little brains. They are so pathetically shallow, narrow-minded, and mislead by the media that it almost makes me sad.

[Fairweather Pure]

don't forget we haven't had an attack since 9/11.

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm!
Lisa: That’s specious reasoning, dad.
Homer: Why thank you, honey.
Lisa: By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Hmm. How does it work?
Lisa:It doesn’t work; it’s just a stupid rock!
Homer:Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don’t see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: Hmm… Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

[Xatrei]

The health care stupidity has been going on since the 90's. Last I checked, the Iraq invasion did not take place until some point after the 90's. There are PLENTY of departments and wasteful expenditures we could target that would save the taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Throwing Iraq out there as the reason we cannot afford other programs is like blaming herpes for lung cancer.

Addressing health care issues have consistently been kept off the table by a republican-controlled congress, a republican president, or both. For the last couple of years, the Democrats have held a razor thin majority in the Congress, but they lacked a strong enough majority to effectively do anything. This November, they will hopefully expand the margins in both houses and take control of the executive branch. If this can happen, those roadblocks will no longer stand in the way, and actual progress can be made. The fact is that since March of 2003, this country has chosen to pour money and lives into the shitter rather than addressing other, more important issues, be they health care, education, combating poverty, energy independence, global warming or a myriad of other neglected priorities. I agree about the wasteful expenditures, though. I'd love to see our total military expenditure reduced, not just what's spent on the occupation of Iraq, to pay for other things that are more urgent (like maybe retiring some of the debt that g-dub and the complicit congress have managed to accumulate). As I've stated elsewhere, we could cut our military spending by 2/3 and still outspend the Chinese or the Russians by 2 to 1 - hell, we'd still be outspending them both combined. I'm not saying we should necessarily cut that deeply, but there's certainly a lot of room to maneuver. There are many other opportunities for increased efficiency within our government, but that's a separate issue.

Fairweather - Don't point that out, man. Their whole world view is built upon specious arguments. It's just cruel to take that away from them.

[Funkmasterr]

The health care stupidity has been going on since the 90's. Last I checked, the Iraq invasion did not take place until some point after the 90's. There are PLENTY of departments and wasteful expenditures we could target that would save the taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Throwing Iraq out there as the reason we cannot afford other programs is like blaming herpes for lung cancer.

Addressing health care issues have consistently been kept off the table by a republican-controlled congress, a republican president, or both. For the last couple of years, the Democrats have held a razor thin majority in the Congress, but they lacked a strong enough majority to effectively do anything. This November, they will hopefully expand the margins in both houses and take control of the executive branch. If this can happen, those roadblocks will no longer stand in the way, and actual progress can be made. The fact is that since March of 2003, this country has chosen to pour money and lives into the shitter rather than addressing other, more important issues, be they health care, education, combating poverty, energy independence, global warming or a myriad of other neglected priorities. I agree about the wasteful expenditures, though. I'd love to see our total military expenditure reduced, not just what's spent on the occupation of Iraq, to pay for other things that are more urgent (like maybe retiring some of the debt that g-dub and the complicit congress have managed to accumulate). As I've stated elsewhere, we could cut our military spending by 2/3 and still outspend the Chinese or the Russians by 2 to 1 - hell, we'd still be outspending them both combined. I'm not saying we should necessarily cut that deeply, but there's certainly a lot of room to maneuver. There are many other opportunities for increased efficiency within our government, but that's a separate issue.

For someone who obviously believes they have it all figured out, you sure don't know how to use a little fucking punctuation.

And if you think that having the democrats run both houses and the president, it's not even worth talking to you about something as simple as the color of the sky.

[Sylvus]

The health care stupidity has been going on since the 90's. Last I checked, the Iraq invasion did not take place until some point after the 90's. There are PLENTY of departments and wasteful expenditures we could target that would save the taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Throwing Iraq out there as the reason we cannot afford other programs is like blaming herpes for lung cancer.

Addressing health care issues have consistently been kept off the table by a republican-controlled congress, a republican president, or both. For the last couple of years, the Democrats have held a razor thin majority in the Congress, but they lacked a strong enough majority to effectively do anything. This November, they will hopefully expand the margins in both houses and take control of the executive branch. If this can happen, those roadblocks will no longer stand in the way, and actual progress can be made. The fact is that since March of 2003, this country has chosen to pour money and lives into the shitter rather than addressing other, more important issues, be they health care, education, combating poverty, energy independence, global warming or a myriad of other neglected priorities. I agree about the wasteful expenditures, though. I'd love to see our total military expenditure reduced, not just what's spent on the occupation of Iraq, to pay for other things that are more urgent (like maybe retiring some of the debt that g-dub and the complicit congress have managed to accumulate). As I've stated elsewhere, we could cut our military spending by 2/3 and still outspend the Chinese or the Russians by 2 to 1 - hell, we'd still be outspending them both combined. I'm not saying we should necessarily cut that deeply, but there's certainly a lot of room to maneuver. There are many other opportunities for increased efficiency within our government, but that's a separate issue.

For someone who obviously believes they have it all figured out, you sure don't know how to use a little fucking punctuation.

I'd be interested in seeing you point out what you would have punctuated differently. It's been a long time since I've had an English class, perhaps my skills are getting rusty.

[Funkmasterr]

The health care stupidity has been going on since the 90's. Last I checked, the Iraq invasion did not take place until some point after the 90's. There are PLENTY of departments and wasteful expenditures we could target that would save the taxpayers billions of dollars each year. Throwing Iraq out there as the reason we cannot afford other programs is like blaming herpes for lung cancer.

Addressing health care issues have consistently been kept off the table by a republican-controlled congress, a republican president, or both. For the last couple of years, the Democrats have held a razor thin majority in the Congress, but they lacked a strong enough majority to effectively do anything. This November, they will hopefully expand the margins in both houses and take control of the executive branch. If this can happen, those roadblocks will no longer stand in the way, and actual progress can be made. The fact is that since March of 2003, this country has chosen to pour money and lives into the shitter rather than addressing other, more important issues, be they health care, education, combating poverty, energy independence, global warming or a myriad of other neglected priorities. I agree about the wasteful expenditures, though. I'd love to see our total military expenditure reduced, not just what's spent on the occupation of Iraq, to pay for other things that are more urgent (like maybe retiring some of the debt that g-dub and the complicit congress have managed to accumulate). As I've stated elsewhere, we could cut our military spending by 2/3 and still outspend the Chinese or the Russians by 2 to 1 - hell, we'd still be outspending them both combined. I'm not saying we should necessarily cut that deeply, but there's certainly a lot of room to maneuver. There are many other opportunities for increased efficiency within our government, but that's a separate issue.

For someone who obviously believes they have it all figured out, you sure don't know how to use a little fucking punctuation.

I'd be interested in seeing you point out what you would have punctuated differently. It's been a long time since I've had an English class, perhaps my skills are getting rusty.

Well I guess a couple of paragraphs would help.. When I see a big block of text like that my first reaction is to usually skip past it.

[Xatrei]

Aside from a one spot that I would have probably punctuated differently, and one place where I would break it into two paragraphs (both the results of lazy / sloppy edits, btw), I'd be interested to know what horrible grammatical gaffes I've committed. Go ahead, Funk. It will be entertaining to be schooled by an imbecile that believes this is a properly formed, complete sentence:

And if you think that having the democrats run both houses and the president, it's not even worth talking to you about something as simple as the color of the sky.

[Funkmasterr]

Aside from a one spot that I would have probably punctuated differently, and one place where I would break it into two paragraphs (both the results of lazy / sloppy edits, btw), I'd be interested to know what horrible grammatical gaffes I've committed. Go ahead, Funk. It will be entertaining to be schooled by an imbecile that believes this is a properly formed, complete sentence:

And if you think that having the democrats run both houses and the president, it's not even worth talking to you about something as simple as the color of the sky.

Where did I say I was perfect? I'm not the one claiming to know how everything is supposed to be like you, you arrogant fucking toolbag. It's common courtesy to break big paragraphs up so people don't have to read one big sloppy douched up sentence.