Obama WILL be the next president

[Fairweather Pure]

It is May 2008 and we invaded Iraq like 5 years ago... Are we still talking about whether we should have or not, really?

Yeah, many people would be happier not being reminded every other day that they were wrong. The amazing part is that some still believe it was the right thing to do and would make the same decision again. In short, yes it is still a valid topic.

[Fash]

It is May 2008 and we invaded Iraq like 5 years ago... Are we still talking about whether we should have or not, really?

Yeah, many people would be happier not being reminded every other day that they were wrong. The amazing part is that some still believe it was the right thing to do and would make the same decision again. In short, yes it is still a valid topic.

That could relate to each of us.. how many mistakes have you made, and how did you proceed? Obviously you want to learn from them, and I think we have in this case (in that the public wouldn't accept such a thing in the future,) but beyond that you probably want to move forward without daily reminders of your failure. You wouldn't want your family, for instance, perpetually attacking you for something you did in the past (like not going to school, or quitting a job, or getting in trouble when you were younger, etc.)

It is very easy to attack a decision that has already been made, and it has been beaten to death already.

[Fairweather Pure]

Yet even after billions and billions of dollars lost, uncountable Iraqi deaths (both civilian and enemy) in addition to our 4k soldiers, and still having no end in sight, I never get sick of saying "I told you so".

The war in Iraq isn't really an "oops, sorry" type of mistake. It was calculated and pushed by the powers that be.

[Fash]

Well, saying 'I told you so' has no effect on me... so, grats!

I agree it was pushed by the powers that be. I would ask you though, who do you think those powers are? Do you really think Bush, or the Bush Administration are really the masterminds here?

[Nick]

Yeah dude its not like the government had anything to do with the invasion of Iraq amirite?

[Fairweather Pure]

I agree it was pushed by the powers that be. I would ask you though, who do you think those powers are? Do you really think Bush, or the Bush Administration are really the masterminds here?

Who the fuck else would it be? The Illuminati?!? Of course it was the Bush administration. They used 9/11 as a springboard to enact thier own plans by trying to "fix" the problem that is the middle east. I think they may have even had good intentions, for what it's worth. They just failed on every level possible trying to accomplish thier goals. Furthermore, it was this administration's crusade, not that of the American people. We elected them, they fucked us. End of story.

[Fash]

So... considering they'll be gone in January, aren't you just wasting your breath? What do you want to have happen?

Should we bring Bush/Cheney up on charges and focus the entire nation on this issue ad nauseum?

[Fairweather Pure]

Plan a withdrawl date. Be vauge, say sometime between May-July of next year. Withdraw the vast bulk of everything we have, maintaining only 4-5 bases. Leave behind a volunteer force of soldiers who will earn increased pay to stay and continue training Iraqis. Give these soldiers plenty of leave time. Say 3 months on, 3 months off. Keep special forces on call and continue running spy planes and the like over Iraqi air space for the next 5 years or so. Pay some Iraqis spies. Pay more spies to watch the spies. It will sort itself out eventually, but not without plenty of growing pains.

And yes, members of this administration should be held accountable through a series of trials. Even if it was only symbolic in nature, it would send a message to the world and maybe American politicians wouldn't be so quick to go to war in the future.

That's my armchair analysis.

[Sylvus]

No, I think we should discuss who is the most fitting person to come in and be president next. Which is kind of what we were trying to do.

[Fash]

No, I think we should discuss who is the most fitting person to come in and be president next. Which is kind of what we were trying to do.

Well I think despite our argument here, we'd be in agreement on that. Of the 3, Obama currently has my support.

I leave open the possibility that he could have duped all of us, and be the worst president ever, though.

[Sylvus]

That's quite possible. Well, I'd rephrase that as he could have duped us all and may end up leading no change and being fairly ineffective. I think he'd be hard-pressed to be the worst president ever.

I just wish Hillary would drop out already. I'd really like Obama to become president, but if it were he vs. McCain in November, I don't think it would make me sad. Not like Kerry vs. Bush, anyway. Actually, it would be the exact opposite. Instead of a candidate that I truly loathed vs. someone that I was indifferent or less than indifferent towards, it would be a candidate that I truly like vs. someone that I'm indifferent or better than indifferent towards.

[Ashur]

Amen Brother Sylvus.

[Forthe]

No, I think we should discuss who is the most fitting person to come in and be president next. Which is kind of what we were trying to do.

Well I think despite our argument here, we'd be in agreement on that. Of the 3, Obama currently has my support.

I leave open the possibility that he could have duped all of us, and be the worst president ever, though.

psst I heard he was a secret muslim hell bent on enslaving the white race and changing the national anthem to a Jay Z song. Some of the whisper campaigning going on is nuts. Funny thing is it seems to be mostly from Hillary supporters (or Republicans pretending to be Hillary supporters).

I think Obama is a much more ruthless politican than most (including his supporters) realize and is underestimated because of it.

But I also think he is a good person. He has plenty of politicians that speak to his character but I take anything from politicans with a grain of salt. I googled for his per faculty and student reviews. They ranged from "nothing special" to mostly very positive. I think its telling if your students rate you highly.

I would predict worst case scenario you will get a Jimmy Carter.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Jimmy Carter never wanted to be able to bend the Constitution to suit his own goals. Obama is on record as saying he wants to make it a "living document" and wants to completely violate the 2nd amendment. I disagree with quite a few things the NRA has ot say, but this guy wants to completely eliminate our rights that are governed by it. He is ridiculously far to the left as Bush is to the right...and we do not need ANY more of that asshattery going on for the next 20 years or so.....which is why I can only find myself supporting a moderate like McCain until the Dems run someone that IS a moderate. Trust me, if Ted Strickland was on this ticket I would be fully behind a Democrat candidate. Unfortunately in politics today, moderates are few and far between and if McCain does not win it will be even harder for one to ever get into office.

[Nick]

By any reasonable standards Obama is a moderate, the US is so insanely right wing these days that a moderate now looks "far left"

[Forthe]

Jimmy Carter never wanted to be able to bend the Constitution to suit his own goals. Obama is on record as saying he wants to make it a "living document" and wants to completely violate the 2nd amendment. I disagree with quite a few things the NRA has ot say, but this guy wants to completely eliminate our rights that are governed by it. He is ridiculously far to the left as Bush is to the right...and we do not need ANY more of that asshattery going on for the next 20 years or so.....which is why I can only find myself supporting a moderate like McCain until the Dems run someone that IS a moderate. Trust me, if Ted Strickland was on this ticket I would be fully behind a Democrat candidate. Unfortunately in politics today, moderates are few and far between and if McCain does not win it will be even harder for one to ever get into office.

Many of his positions are not black and white (no pun intended). 2nd ammendment arguments are very different when you look at them from the perspectives of South Side Chicago vs a small town. The problem is it is hard to stop the flow of guns from areas where it is not a problem into areas where it is.

Nor is he as far left as he is portrayed. The far left are consciously overlooking\giving him a pass on his positions. i.e. His war speech at an anti-war rally (quoted above) saying he doesn't oppose war, he puts down the Vietnam protestors for their treatment of the soldiers, he is pro-nuclear power. He says shit right to their face and gets away with it.

Strickland is definitely in there. I'm still rooting for Chuck Hagel but it would take HUGE BALLS to risk backlash from the left. I didn't think so at first but I think Sueven got it right with Jim Webb.

Edit: Man WV makes you guys look bad. You need a WV media backout. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... banjo.html

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

By any reasonable standards Obama is a moderate, the US is so insanely right wing these days that a moderate now looks "far left"

Wow, you are so out of touch. America is not even close to right wing. You really need to live here I guess to see it. You must get a terrible view of America on the TV over there. No wonder why you are so ill-informed.

[Xatrei]

I think Nick's point was just proved.

[Zaelath]

I think Nick's point was just proved.

No no, the closer you stand to something the easier it is to see the big picture.

[Nick]

In other news, midnyte argues that black is white.

[Sylvus]

Jimmy Carter never wanted to be able to bend the Constitution to suit his own goals. Obama is on record as saying he wants to make it a "living document" and wants to completely violate the 2nd amendment. I disagree with quite a few things the NRA has ot say, but this guy wants to completely eliminate our rights that are governed by it. He is ridiculously far to the left as Bush is to the right...and we do not need ANY more of that asshattery going on for the next 20 years or so.....which is why I can only find myself supporting a moderate like McCain until the Dems run someone that IS a moderate. Trust me, if Ted Strickland was on this ticket I would be fully behind a Democrat candidate. Unfortunately in politics today, moderates are few and far between and if McCain does not win it will be even harder for one to ever get into office.

Address Gun Violence in Cities: As president, Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama also favors commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals who shouldn't have them. He supports closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. He also supports making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent, as such weapons belong on foreign battlefields and not on our streets.

I realize you're going to probably reference his "secret plan" that only you know about, but what there sounds bad? If you are, in fact, a responsible gun owner, how could you have a problem with closing loopholes that make it easer for people who shouldn't have guns be able to have guns? Or making it easier to track down guns used in crimes? Or trying to make it more difficult for children to accidentally (or on purpose) hurt themselves or others? He's not going to steal your guns, and that seems like it's the main (only?) problem you have with him. Don't worry, you'll still be able to feel like a man, as long as your insecurities aren't so deep-seated that they require an AK-47 to compensate.

[Ashur]

I think the issue at heart for Kilmoll is concealed-carry. Which that statement doesn't address. Obama's stance is a federal ban.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.gun.html

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

He wants to ban all concealed carry, ELIMINATE all sales of any semi automatic firearms....oh why am I bothering...you did nto bother reading this the first FIVE times I have posted this same info, but i am a sucker and will post it fucking again for you to ignore.



http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Bar ... ontrol.htm

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions
Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

Now I don't know how many fucking ways you can look around that, but even most Democrats know that is a clear violation of the 2nd amendment....well at least until he tries to have it abolished.

[Fash]

I think the issue at heart for Kilmoll is concealed-carry. Which that statement doesn't address. Obama's stance is a federal ban.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.gun.html

Wow, that's a big one... and a fucking terrible idea.

I don't think it would pass congress, tho... amirite?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

and lets be clear on one other point....firearms are not the root cause of inner city violence. The root cause is that the culture of the inner city youths glorifies violence, not being educated, drugs, prostitution, and pretty much anything that is against society's norms. You can blame much of that on the lack of any real parenting or family role models. When your culture says that being an idiot that can't speak proper English and that jail is something that gives you credibility, then you are one fucked up, needs to be eliminated culture.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I think the issue at heart for Kilmoll is concealed-carry. Which that statement doesn't address. Obama's stance is a federal ban.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.gun.html

Wow, that's a big one... and a fucking terrible idea.

I don't think it would pass congress, tho... amirite?

That is a big question considering Congress is democrat controlled. I really am not against the instant background checks for people with booths at gun shows. Private seller that sells face to face to someone....no possible way you could do that successfully..Gun locks being mandatory is useless and stupid. It is nothing more than an added cost that will do nothing to stop a kid from using it since they can't mandate them being on the gun. The "assault weapons" bans are just pointless retardations. They ban guns based purely on looks and not functionality. I mean...a gun being banned because the stock has a thumbhole in it is absolutely absurd. Start making laws that have teeth for actual criminals and stop being such useless shitheads about trivial bullshit.

[Fairweather Pure]

That left wing faggot better not take away my right to own a vulcan chain gun.

[Fash]

How many people are killed in America each year by assault weapons?

Is it worth making ourselves vulnerable if/when shit hits the fan and someone invades us?... I doubt it.

Banning guns isn't the answer.

[Fairweather Pure]

America is safe as long as I can conceal my modified fully automatic glock.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I am glad you are a moron. As a left wing idiot, maybe you should remember that the only thing that keeps our government from turning into a dictatorship is that the population is armed. Once the government disarms the populace, things can turn bad in a hurry. see also: Germany.

[Xatrei]

I read it each time you've posted it, I just don't care. As we've discussed a few times before, I fully support greater restrictions on most types of firearms, but it's not likely to happen. Even if this was Obama's position at the time that he filled out the questionnaire you cite, he has since amended his position in various forums.

I think the generally accepted position of most people in the country, except the extreme, no-limits pro-gun crowd, is that regardless of what the 2nd ammendment says or intended, the government has a right to restrict ownership to various degrees. A few examples of 'acceptable' restrictions would include laws that prohibit mental patients or felons (for the most part) from owning weapons; regulations that prevent you from going to your local big-box to buy an MP5, an M240 or an M2; or laws that won't allow the private ownership of a functioning M119 or M198 howitzer. The question has always been where to draw the line between reasonable and unreasonable restriction.

I do agree that it's silly to restrict any weapon based on its appearance rather than its function. The term "assault weapon" is pretty meaningless within this context, which was merely a sensationalized name used to capitalize on public fear at the time. Restrictions should be based upon factors like bore size, muzzle velocity, capacity, cyclic firing rate, physical size (how concealable is it?), etc.

[Fairweather Pure]

I am glad you are a moron. As a left wing idiot, maybe you should remember that the only thing that keeps our government from turning into a dictatorship is that the population is armed. Once the government disarms the populace, things can turn bad in a hurry. see also: Germany.

My concealed fully automatic glock also keeps the US government from becoming a dictatorship. It also prevents aliens from invading from outer space and atlantis from attacking us. They can cure cancer too if your aim is good.

Guns are fucking AWESOME!

[Sylvus]

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions
Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.

Now I don't know how many fucking ways you can look around that, but even most Democrats know that is a clear violation of the 2nd amendment....well at least until he tries to have it abolished.

How is it a clear violation of the 2nd Amendment? Semi-Auto didn't even exist when the 2nd Amendment was written. If you're going to criticize Obama for bending the Constitution to suit his own goals, aren't you doing the same thing? Hasn't the precedent been established that the 2nd Amendment's protection of the "right to bear arms" does not include all weapons? Does it give any protection to concealed carry?

I had not ignored what you'd pointed out, I was just looking for more current information. The part you bolded, at least from the site you linked to, was taken from a survey that he filled out in 1998 with no other context given. Could he have been focusing more on a local issue, saying that he wanted to ban them from Chicago? Could his perspective have changed in 10 years or when expanding it to include the entire United States? Every quote I've seen when searching for him saying something in the 2000s about banning all semi-autos, he mentions that he's trying to keep these guns off the streets. He's not talking about Cherry Blossom Ln. in Waterville, Ohio (or wherever you live), he's talking about in the inner city.

I just transcribed the linked video from Ashur's cnn link. Here's what he says:

"I respect the right of lawful gun owners to hunt, fish, protect their families... I respect that. Like all rights though, they are constrained and bound by the rights of the community. So I have a right to free speech, but I can't just yell fire in this auditorium. I can be prosecuted for that, because we've got a larger community interest in preventing mayhem. So when I look at Chicago and 34 Chicago Public School students gunned down in a single school year, then I don't think that the 2nd Amendment prohibits us from taking action to makes sure that, for example, ATF can share tracing information about illegal handguns that are used on the streets and track them to gun dealers to find out "what are you doing?" Are you just selling them to anybody and filling up vans full of handguns that are ending up on the streets and are killing kids. The point being that there is a tradition of gun ownership in this country that can be respected that is not mutually exclusive with making sure that we are shutting down gun trafficking that is killing kids on our streets"

If you're a responsible gun owner, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that you have to jump through a few hoops to get your guns.

[Fairweather Pure]

My concealed fully automatic glock can't shut up Sylvus's reasonable dialogue

[Forthe]

How many people are killed in America each year by assault weapons?

Is it worth making ourselves vulnerable if/when shit hits the fan and someone invades us?... I doubt it.

Banning guns isn't the answer.

Dude if you are invaded by a force capable of facing your conventional army you are fucked.

[Noysyrump]

Alright, this thread has just turned into the first 3 pages of 'McCain will be the next president'... Shudderdown.

Fairwether, yer a moron.

[Fash]

How many people are killed in America each year by assault weapons?

Is it worth making ourselves vulnerable if/when shit hits the fan and someone invades us?... I doubt it.

Banning guns isn't the answer.

Dude if you are invaded by a force capable of facing your conventional army you are fucked.

Granted... so we should sit around like lambs for the slaughter? No, I don't think so. There are more armed citizens than there are service members.

[Fairweather Pure]

Fairwether, yer a moron.

"Yer" just jealous of all my guns.

[Forthe]

Anywho, you need to find a way that allows the hunter to bag a deer with an AK-47 while also not acting as arms dealers for criminals. Try to find an effective consensus.

I disagree with Kilmoll on guns not being a problem. Take away the ability of gangs to easily get large quantities of guns and you make them much less bold and much less lethal.

[Boogahz]

Alright, this thread has just turned into the first 3 pages of 'McCain will be the next president'... Shudderdown.

Fairwether, yer a moron.

This is what happens when Comcast takes away his pr0n.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Anywho, you need to find a way that allows the hunter to bag a deer with an AK-47 while also not acting as arms dealers for criminals. Try to find an effective consensus.

I disagree with Kilmoll on guns not being a problem. Take away the ability of gangs to easily get large quantities of guns and you make them much less bold and much less lethal.

making them illegal does not make them less available to people willing to break the law..therein lies the problem. Drugs are illegal, yet these "gangs" are the ones trafficking them. It is not a gun problem...it is a crime problem.

[Fash]

Marijuana is illegal, yet I've had consistent sources for the past 10 years... Bans work!

[Winnow]

I'm hearing way too much talk about Obama "selecting" Hillary as his running mate.

What a shame. He'll probably do it too. She's a survivor. If not the presidency she'll see what she can screw up as VP and then screw things up again in four years or eight.

She doesn't have one ounce of sincerity in her. 100% calculating power whore.

[Forthe]

There is a difference between guns and drugs. People aren't making guns in their basement. You also prosecute drug dealers, perhaps you should prosecute irresponsible gun dealers. You do have the ability to control the domestic supply chain.

I do not understand how you can advocate the status quo when you have neighborhoods the police are afraid to enter. You blame the societies within those areas, how do you expect those societies to act when they are ruled by thugs? It is a crime + gun problem.

However, if you don't secure your borders they will most likely import black market guns rather than the grey market guns they currently have access to.

[Forthe]

I'm hearing way too much talk about Obama "selecting" Hillary as his running mate.

What a shame. He'll probably do it too. She's a survivor. If not the presidency she'll see what she can screw up as VP and then screw things up again in four years or eight.

She doesn't have one ounce of sincerity in her. 100% calculating power whore.

That would surprise me. He would be viewed as a sellout if he did. The media is pushing this very hard.

[Ashur]

I don't believe he is dumb or desperate enough allow Hillary to be foisted upon him as a running mate.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Michelle Obama won't allow that to happen.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

There is a difference between guns and drugs. People aren't making guns in their basement. You also prosecute drug dealers, perhaps you should prosecute irresponsible gun dealers. You do have the ability to control the domestic supply chain.

I do not understand how you can advocate the status quo when you have neighborhoods the police are afraid to enter. You blame the societies within those areas, how do you expect those societies to act when they are ruled by thugs? It is a crime + gun problem.

However, if you don't secure your borders they will most likely import black market guns rather than the grey market guns they currently have access to.

Oh I guarantee a way they could clean up those neighborhoods and never have a problem with it again. You fry every single one of the murderers and people will stop murdering. That then frees up the jails for other types of violent offenders. The police are not necessarily who I would send in either if it was to really clean it up. I would sent in the National Guard and yank every one of these little thugs out of there.

[Forthe]

I would sent in the National Guard and yank every one of these little thugs out of there.

I absolutely agree with this.

[Forthe]

Michelle Obama won't allow that to happen.

Would you let your wife stand between Hillary and the presidency?