Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

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Nick
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Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080505/ap_ ... journalist


KHARTOUM, Sudan - An Al-Jazeera cameraman released from the U.S.-run Guantanamo Bay detention center last week described it Monday as the worst prison mankind has ever seen.
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Sami al-Haj, a Sudanese citizen, was whisked from his hospital bed in a convoy escorted by police cars with flashing lights and wailing sirens to an outdoor event in his neighborhood organized by his family. His speech was broadcast live on Sudanese television.

"After 2,340 days spent in the most heinous prison mankind has ever known, we are honored to be here. Thank you, and thank all those defended us and of our right in freedom," he told the cheering crowd.

Al-Haj was the only journalist from a major international news organization held at Guantanamo and many of his supporters saw his detention as punishment for an Arabic television channel whose broadcasts angered U.S. officials.

The U.S. military charged he was a courier for a militant Muslim organization, an allegation his lawyers denied.

Al-Haj said he believed he was arrested because of U.S. hostility toward Al-Jazeera and because the media was reporting on U.S. rights violations in Afghanistan.

"I was subjected to 130 (interrogation) sessions, more than 35 about Al-Jazeera, and they wanted me to be a spy against Al-Jazeera," he said. He said that as a faithful Muslim, he rejected the offer.

Al-Haj, who arrived in Khartoum early Friday aboard a U.S. military plane, thanked the Sudanese people and their warm reception, which he said had made him "forget the long bitter years that we spent in humiliation, injustice and subjugation and oppression."

Before Monday's outdoor welcome ceremony, al-Haj received visitors in his hospital room, including dozens of senior Sudanese officials who wished him a speedy recovery.

Though able to walk a short distance at the event in his neighborhood, al-Haj was still weak after a 16-month hunger strike at Guantanamo.

His attorney, Zachary Katznelson, who met with al-Haj at the U.S. base April 11, said he was emaciated because of the hunger strike. He said al-Haj had been having problems with his liver and kidneys and had blood in his urine.

Al-Haj was never prosecuted so the U.S did not make public its full allegations against him. But in a hearing that classified the cameraman as an enemy combatant, U.S. officials alleged that in the 1990s, al-Haj was an executive assistant at a Qatar-based beverage company that provided support to Muslim fighters in Bosnia and Chechnya.

Two other Sudanese detainees at Guantanamo were released with al-Haj.
As with most of the people who've been held in Guantanamo, this one got released without charge.

Cue idiotic armchair republicans to the defense of a place that's morally inexcusable.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Winnow »

Kill them all!

I only run over white people wearing green clothing in GTA IV.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Keep in mind that ignoring the truth in this particular case is the best form of defense! (just kidding, it's indefensible).
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Markulas »

Please move this to the movie thread. And if there's not already a topic for Harold & Kumar Escape from Guantanamo Bay create one. :roll:
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Yeah, I suppose. Pointing out reality, without the support of Harold and Kumar, is a waste of time at this point I guess. 8)
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Spang »

I guess America sucks.

Sorry.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

thanks
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Excellent America sucks post 568. Gripping. Original. Insightful. zzzzzzzzz
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I am all for releasing everyone from Guantanamo. Of course there is one caveat.....if we are attacked by middle eastern sponsored terrorists again, we nuke the shithole off the map.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

You would have thought, that given the fear Americans live under of attack by radical islamists, that acknowledging their (US) end of the problem and making amends would be high up the list of priorities. Yeah? Except no. Instead, you have examples of the two posters above, who prefer to wallow on imperialist grandeur and idiotic soundbyte.

And then you wonder why you get attacked, and how all those ebil terryorists totally did all this for no reason rite?
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Boogahz »

This might double post due to the MSNBC site freezine in the background as noted below:


How is this for irony?

I was looking for more information about Sami al-Haj, and I noticed that none of the "major" US news networks seemed to pop up.

I checked CNN's site, and there was just a mention of him being held in a story about another group of released prisoners.

I checked the Fox News site, and the top headline was 'Freed Sudanese cameraman calls Gitmo history's worst jail'. There were multiple stories linked when searching by his name.



MSNBC's site is still loading...


As for why most people aren't responding here, I am guessing that many may not have heard anything about it. Since many don't follow (or admit to following) Fox News, they probably weren't exposed to his story.

Personally, I still don't know how they could have justified taking this man based mainly on his name. I do believe it is possible that someone posing as this journalist had been involved in what he was accused of, but how long should they take to determine that? I feel that they took too long in his case, and in the case of others.

From some of the stories I had read about other people which were "pending release," there were complications with the country that the US would release the "prisoners" to which caused some to be held much longer than they should have. Who knows if this was the case here.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Bagar- »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Excellent America sucks post 568. Gripping. Original. Insightful. zzzzzzzzz

Excelent way to avoid the topic and divert it into yet another "america bashing" thread. Such a hypocrite.

You can claim that it was already one of those, but the fact is that Nick is bringing up a real, valid issue, and the only person to say "america sucks" before you was Spang - in attempted humor which you obviously didn't get.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Ashur »

Disclaimer: I do not condone Guantanamo Bay and would like to see it shut down and those that cannot charge returned to their countries of origin immediately*. If in the prosecution of the "War on Terror" Intelligence agencies apprehend and question people, that would be expected, but you cannot hold people forever without charging them. Our country has a right to defend itself, but we have to stand for something.

Comment: Calling it "History's worst Jail" makes me wonder what experiences he's had to compare it to. He came out of it ready for a press conference and the only physical damage is what he did to himself as a result of a hunger strike**. I would think History's Worst Jail would have to belong to one of the Soviet Gulags or SS Concentration Camps where you check in, but don't check out.

* within reason, don't let them go to Iraq/Afganistan if they're not from there, but don't force them to go to a country where they will be apprehended/tortured i.e. Egypt

** I'm not discounting psychological damage here, but from the story, it seems like he's got control of his head.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I am all for releasing everyone from Guantanamo. Of course there is one caveat.....if we are attacked by middle eastern sponsored terrorists again, we nuke the shithole off the map.
Hear hear.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Bagar- wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Excellent America sucks post 568. Gripping. Original. Insightful. zzzzzzzzz

Excelent way to avoid the topic and divert it into yet another "america bashing" thread. Such a hypocrite.

You can claim that it was already one of those, but the fact is that Nick is bringing up a real, valid issue, and the only person to say "america sucks" before you was Spang - in attempted humor which you obviously didn't get.
Please search the CE forum for the other 18 threads on this topic for my response. Thanks. Have a nice day.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Bagar- wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Excellent America sucks post 568. Gripping. Original. Insightful. zzzzzzzzz

Excelent way to avoid the topic and divert it into yet another "america bashing" thread. Such a hypocrite.

You can claim that it was already one of those, but the fact is that Nick is bringing up a real, valid issue, and the only person to say "america sucks" before you was Spang - in attempted humor which you obviously didn't get.
Please search the CE forum for the other 18 threads on this topic for my response. Thanks. Have a nice day.
Then why bother posting? If you've said what you need to say on an issue, and aren't going to listen to new information regarding said issue and have it change your opinion or spark more discussion, don't bother replying.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I can do as I please. Thanks. Have a nice day.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Truant »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I can do as I please. Thanks. Have a nice day.
But you tell others to not do as they please?


hmm...there's a word for that. Can't think of it atm...
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Truant wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I can do as I please. Thanks. Have a nice day.
But you tell others to not do as they please?
...
Yes. I'm a hypocrit. We all have done it. My display of it is in this thread by daring to remark at the sickening repetition Nick displays in these America bashing threads. Other display it in much larger and important ways. Such an awful human I am.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Xatrei »

This prison's existence is an embarrassment to me as an American. It needs to be closed immediately, and this country needs to do everything it can to bring our prosecution of this misnamed "war" back into alignment with this nation's ideals. Having said that, however, calling this place the worst prison in history is overstating things. It's a horrible, vile, shameful thing we're doing there, but I think Tomas Torquemada, a few Roman emperors, Stalin, Hitler or Henry the Eighth might be at the front of the line to quibble over the dubious "honor" of who had the worst prison conditions.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Yes. I'm a hypocrit. We all have done it. My display of it is in this thread by daring to remark at the sickening repetition Nick displays in these America bashing threads. Other display it in much larger and important ways. Such an awful human I am.
The fact you are obsessed with concieving everything as simply "America bashing" (because hey, we all know you're such a fucking patriot) as opposed to looking at the issue being raised without being disgusted is why you're being called out, yet again, for being the imbecile everyone knows you are. You invite ad-hominem attacks, and you dish them out yourself, so trying to take the high ground is a bit of a waste of time.

The fact you aren't disgusted by this sort of thing means that you are the most "un-american" fucking moron on the board. Since when did being an American mean being an immoral, illogical fuckhead?

Also, yes, you are a hypocrite. This nullifies your point and is a bad thing. Is that so impossible for your thick head to understand? It's like talking to an infant.
Last edited by Nick on May 6, 2008, 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Ashur »

Xatrei wrote:It's a horrible, vile, shameful thing we're doing there, but I think Tomas Torquemada, a few Roman emperors, Stalin, Hitler or Henry the Eighth might be at the front of the line to quibble over the dubious "honor" of who had the worst prison conditions.
Yeah, that was the point I wanted to make.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

I doubt it's as bad as many other places, even places operated by America such as the "Black sites", but we're talking various degrees of horrific inhumane treatment - it's not just all fine and lovely at Guantanamo.

Guantanamo is merely the open-proud symbol of hypocrisy. The extent of an innocent man's hyperbole is really not the issue here at all. :roll:
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Xatrei »

Nick wrote:I doubt it's as bad as many other places, even places operated by America such as the "Black sites", but we're talking various degrees of horrific inhumane treatment - it's not just all fine and lovely at Guantanamo.

Guantanamo is merely the open-proud symbol of hypocrisy. The extent of an innocent man's hyperbole is really not the issue here at all. :roll:
To be clear, my agreement that the place might not be as bad as other hell holes, is in no way an endorsement. It's shameful, and it needs to go. There's no debate to be had on that topic, imo.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Aye I hear you. I was just pointing out that that avenue of discussion, while true, is not really the issue here, so didn't want an ever-expanding derail into his wording. People, not you, are simply going to use it to cover up the issue in spin/derailing (i.e the usual suspects).
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:
The fact you aren't disgusted by this sort of thing means that you are the most "un-american" fucking moron on the board. Since when did being an American mean being an immoral, illogical fuckhead?
.
And that's one of the differences between you and I. I don't think of you as a disgusting person because you hold a different opinion on this issue than I do. I understand that there will always be sob stories here and there in any prison, but for the greater good it holds importance. That is my understanding, not yours. It takes many kinds to run this world. I'm sorry you cannot get that. Once you can realize that your way isn't the only way to everything, I think you will be a lot calmer and less angry all the time. There was a time I was like that myself. Every so often it comes back in flashes. We are always evolving I guess.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Xatrei »

I know this is probably a minor derail, but it's strongly related to this topic, so I'll just post it here...

Five Years of My Life: An Innocent Man in Guantanamo (amazon.com) is another interesting account of time spent in Guantanamo by an innocent man. I've not finished it yet, but it's an interesting read so far. Whether you choose to read the book or not, everyone should take a look at this guy's story to get a glimpse of what kind of repugnant shit our government is doing on our behalf.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

And that's one of the differences between you and I. I don't think of you as a disgusting person because you hold a different opinion on this issue than I do.
This is your usual bullshit reply. Blah blah I can respect diverse opinions. Guess what Einstein, not all opinions deserve respect. For example: Not having a problem with the existence of Guantanamo Bay - that doesn't deserve respect.

If you don't have the brains to think bullshit opinions are undeserving of respect you must be either a nihilist or an idiot.
I understand that there will always be sob stories here and there in any prison, but for the greater good it holds importance.
This isn't just "any" prison. It's a prison that defies the Geneva convention (unless your a terrified and sneaky anti-human rights American). Most prisons don't deny one of the most basic/highly regarded set of global laws in regards to the treatment of human beings.

Rehashing this argument is moot though, since it's been done to death, and people who argue that Guantanamo does not contravene the Geneva convention are:

A. Wrong/liars.
B./ Wormy little fuckers who don't give a shit about human rights.
C. The same fucking morons who think that if an American is held hostage for 5 years its an outrage, because it goes against the fundamental reasoning behind stuff like....YOU GUESSED IT! The geneva convention!

Also, way to ignore the second world war and the things we learned from it. You stupid little short memoried fascist twat.
That is my understanding, not yours.
And?
It takes many kinds to run this world.
So are you defending it or are you just (after already being shown to be a hypocrite) laughably attempting to take the moral high ground? (Which would be pretty fucking ironic - presumably you aren't that dumb).
I'm sorry you cannot get that.
That it takes many kinds to run this world? That isn't even a point worth considering or understanding. It has fuck all to do with the issue. It's also a closet defense of ignoring human rights.

Maybe you think antagonising the Muslim world + the rest of the world is the best way to keep your country safe. You are, by virtually every poll, and by using even the tiniest amount of common fucking sense, (thankfully) in the tiny majority. You exhibit redneck behaviour. Congratulations.
Once you can realize that your way isn't the only way to everything, I think you will be a lot calmer and less angry all the time. There was a time I was like that myself. Every so often it comes back in flashes. We are always evolving I guess.
It's hilarious seeing you fall back on this "I'll be condescending because I'm older than him" argument everytime you're shown to be a fucking idiot. Really, I pity you more than anything else at this point.

Also, you are so fucking obtuse you can't even discuss the issue, you're more interested in this same old silly bullshit that's of interest to no one except yourself. You're ego is violently out of kilter with reality sunshine.

:roll:
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Winnow »

So in the future, we should kill these people (black ops style) instead of stick them in prison. That way people won't bitch so much.

Two points:

1. All religious people are fucking nuts. (even those that just sit around a Christmas tree drinking hot chocolate and singing carols)

2. We can't control the loony Christians but we sure as hell can kill the Muslims with prejudice.

As Xatrei would say, "That's not an endorsement of Christianity."

People are going to die. There's no solution to religious fanaticism so lets get on with the killing. First step is to invite the people that are against harming suicide bombers to a big rally and then let a suicide bomber blow them the fuck up. After a quick chuckle, the rest of the nation will fire up into battle mode and we can get on with the cleansing without as many annoying protests.

Anyone who wants Hillary as our president is crazy as well because that thing would put this plan into motion if she thought it would secure a second term.








It's all about oil. We need it and people in power are getting crazy rich off of it so nothing will change.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Nick wrote: It's a prison that defies the Geneva convention (unless your a terrified and sneaky anti-human rights American).

You are incorrect. Whether it is humane or not, whether you agree with how they have approached this, it is NOT in violation of Geneva conventions. I have posted the passages here from Geneva in the past. Now if you are claiming they should close the loopholes in that document, then that is a whole different discussion.


Edit: The entire reason they are being held at Guantanamo has to do with them not being recognized as POW's. See my next post to see why. With them not being POW's, they are not subject to the Geneva convention. Other laws or regulatory agencies I cannot comment on....
Last edited by Kilmoll the Sexy on May 7, 2008, 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Ashur »

I think it had to do with classifying those held as "Enemy Combatants" versus treating them as "Private Citizens", which is a fuzzy area when it comes to terrorism in general.

If a kid picks up an AK47 and goes postal at a shopping mall, he's a private citizen and a criminal.

If someone with a cause detrimental to a government does it, he's an enemy combatant and a terrorist.

Now they dig a bit deeper and say "Hey, we suspect this guy is materially aiding or abetting terrorist activities, therefore he is an enemy combatant.". It loosens the restrictions.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Relevant link and passage so you can choose to ignore it.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Article 4

A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

(c) That of carrying arms openly;

(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.


3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Oh right, so you're under catagory A and B then. Thanks for clarifying.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Xatrei »

I think that quibbling over whether the Geneva Conventions rules apply or not distracts from the more important, fundamental issue. What's going on in Guantanamo and who knows how many other secret locations is morally abhorrent, and is it not something we should be engaged in as a nation founded upon the ideals that we so loudly and proudly espouse. It is outrageous that so many in this country happily turn a blind eye to the vile behavior of our government as it claims to protect us.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Xatrei wrote:I think that quibbling over whether the Geneva Conventions rules apply or not distracts from the more important, fundamental issue. What's going on in Guantanamo and who knows how many other secret locations is morally abhorrent, and is it not something we should be engaged in as a nation founded upon the ideals that we so loudly and proudly espouse. It is outrageous that so many in this country happily turn a blind eye to the vile behavior of our government as it claims to protect us.
In your opinion. Just because you think it is morally abhorrent, doesn't mean it is. It's just your opinion. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Aardor »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Xatrei wrote:I think that quibbling over whether the Geneva Conventions rules apply or not distracts from the more important, fundamental issue. What's going on in Guantanamo and who knows how many other secret locations is morally abhorrent, and is it not something we should be engaged in as a nation founded upon the ideals that we so loudly and proudly espouse. It is outrageous that so many in this country happily turn a blind eye to the vile behavior of our government as it claims to protect us.
In your opinion. Just because you think it is morally abhorrent, doesn't mean it is. It's just your opinion. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Xatrei »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:In your opinion. </snip>
Ummm... no kidding? Of course it is my opinion. WTF else would it be, shit for brains? This board is for exchanging opinions. I don't feel the need to follow your posts with "well, that's your opinion" after every retarded assembly of syllables you manage to string together.

Of course in this case, I'm reasonably confident that my opinion happens to be correct. That's just my opinion, though. (I'm stating the obvious for your benefit here)
Last edited by Xatrei on May 7, 2008, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:In your opinion. Just because you think it is morally abhorrent, doesn't mean it is. It's just your opinion. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Knarlz »

On a lighter note...

Ex-Gitmo prisoner carries out suicide attack.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24504862

(PS, I do not condone the existance of gitmo.)
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Knarlz wrote:On a lighter note...

Ex-Gitmo prisoner carries out suicide attack.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24504862

(PS, I do not condone the existance of gitmo.)
No, of course not. Why would you. They're all innocent chaps just trying to do right by their families.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Noysyrump »

So club Gitmo is so bad eh? Perhaps then we should just sumarily execute these people on the spot instead? Or is it that you want them shipped into the states and put into you're neighborhood jails where they can mingle with our drug abusers?
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

What type of idiotic tripe reasoning is that?
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Acies »

Noysyrump wrote:So club Gitmo is so bad eh? Perhaps then we should just sumarily execute these people on the spot instead? Or is it that you want them shipped into the states and put into you're neighborhood jails where they can mingle with our drug abusers?
I would prefer they not imprison and/or summarily execute an innocent man.

Edit: That seems to be what a lot of you are not understanding. He was an innocent man, a reporter, nothing more. He had seven years of his life stripped from him by our governing body, and you shrug and play armchair defendant of our country against Nick's more or less very reasonable line of accusations. Is this a nation of tyrants where an innocent man can be subject to hell, and the people responsible are not accountable at all? Are you morally comfortable with that?
Last edited by Acies on May 7, 2008, 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Noysyrump »

Nick wrote:What type of idiotic tripe reasoning is that?
That's the problem with Idealism there nick, you don't use reason. Now wouldnt it be nice were we could live in a perfect world where all you had to do was say "Hey dont blow that man up" and they wouldn't. However, the world is not perfect. There are mean men out to kill you. And there are some other mean men that want to stop them from killing you. We'll call them 'army intelligence'. Well these AI guys had a piece of property on a US base off soil of the United States proper. So they opened a club for the other mean people where they could be held so that they could not BLOW YOU UP!~
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Noysyrump »

Acies wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:So club Gitmo is so bad eh? Perhaps then we should just sumarily execute these people on the spot instead? Or is it that you want them shipped into the states and put into you're neighborhood jails where they can mingle with our drug abusers?
I would prefer they not imprison and/or summarily execute an innocent man.
See above post...

Oh he was innocent already, then 3 years later, he blew people up!~

They are not grabbing random people off the streets and flying them to cuba. Jesus, they KNOW THESE ARE BAD PEOPLE! So they send them away. after a few years, someone decides erringly "oh maybe he's not so bad after all". And they release one or two back into the world. Only to have em strap a bomb to themselves.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Acies »

How do they know?

Edit again: Ala, let us assume that this comes from an intelligence agency which may or may not have corrupt practices (you know, as in ours, for example) and questionable morallity. You trust that they "know" blindly? I do not. And I would want due process for this man, guilty or no.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Noysyrump wrote:
Acies wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:So club Gitmo is so bad eh? Perhaps then we should just sumarily execute these people on the spot instead? Or is it that you want them shipped into the states and put into you're neighborhood jails where they can mingle with our drug abusers?
I would prefer they not imprison and/or summarily execute an innocent man.
See above post...

Oh he was innocent already, then 3 years later, he blew people up!~

They are not grabbing random people off the streets and flying them to cuba. Jesus, they KNOW THESE ARE BAD PEOPLE! So they send them away. after a few years, someone decides erringly "oh maybe he's not so bad after all". And they release one or two back into the world. Only to have em strap a bomb to themselves.

You do realise that the vast majority of Gitmo detainees have been released without charge don't you?

Of course you dont. :roll:
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Winnow »

Nick wrote:
You do realise that the vast majority of Gitmo detainees have been released without charge don't you?

Of course you dont. :roll:

Charging them would cause expensive court battles. Best to release them with tracking devices implated up their asses and then eliminate them a few day later.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Noysyrump »

Nick wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:
Acies wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:So club Gitmo is so bad eh? Perhaps then we should just sumarily execute these people on the spot instead? Or is it that you want them shipped into the states and put into you're neighborhood jails where they can mingle with our drug abusers?
I would prefer they not imprison and/or summarily execute an innocent man.
See above post...

Oh he was innocent already, then 3 years later, he blew people up!~

They are not grabbing random people off the streets and flying them to cuba. Jesus, they KNOW THESE ARE BAD PEOPLE! So they send them away. after a few years, someone decides erringly "oh maybe he's not so bad after all". And they release one or two back into the world. Only to have em strap a bomb to themselves.

You do realise that the vast majority of Gitmo detainees have been released without charge don't you?

Of course you dont. :roll:

Then what is your issue? If they are finding people to be 'innocent of all charges' and releasing them isnt that a good thing?

As for as how sure I am of things... Not very. I aint there, I aint doing it. But I can happily assume that the people who are, are fighting the good fight, and not filling up the limited space and spending all that gas money to fly someone they think 'might' have some connection to someone who might know something about something. I'm gonna continue assuming they caught them doing something untoward and sent them away.

Of course, I'd also be fine with summary excecutions. Because I understand that this is a war (no not Iraq, that's an occupation) between fundamentalist islam and the west. And seeing as how I'd rather not spend 4 hours a day on my knees praying to mecca. I'm gonna vote for my side to win. They kill women and children. We send them to Gitmo. In my eyes, we have the moral high ground and that's enough for me...

Why isn't it for you? You do realize they kill athiests in especially horrid ways right? No belief in god in anyway is the purest form of evil to them. To them, a catholic is a heathen. An athiest is satan.
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Re: Sudanese reporter freed from Guantanamo

Post by Nick »

Noysyrump wrote: Then what is your issue? If they are finding people to be 'innocent of all charges' and releasing them isnt that a good thing?
Are you fucking joking? You don't think due process is a basic human right? It's not like they are bringing them to Guantanamo for say 48 hours and then going "oh sorry, you're innocent! there's the door!" They are holding these men for 3 to 4 years without charge, then, realising that they have no case against these hostages they extradite them back to the respective countries, which release them without charge (to the constant annoyance of the US government).

As for as how sure I am of things... Not very. I aint there, I aint doing it. But I can happily assume that the people who are, are fighting the good fight,
Ignorance is bliss I guess. Also, only some Americans think they hold a moral high ground, i.e you, i.e the ones taken in by constant pro-america patriotic bullshit propoganda. The rest of the world is pretty eye roll about it all.

I like you, all of you, but its like talking to infants sometimes, jesus.

Edit:
Charging them would cause expensive court battles. Best to release them with tracking devices implated up their asses and then eliminate them a few day later.
Wow you're so edgy sometimes Winnow.
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