I need a photo ID to vote?

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I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

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Supreme Court upholds photo ID law for voters in Indiana By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 15 minutes ago



The Supreme Court ruled Monday that states can require voters to produce photo identification without violating their constitutional rights, validating Republican-inspired voter ID laws.

In a splintered 6-3 ruling, the court upheld Indiana's strict photo ID requirement, which Democrats and civil rights groups said would deter poor, older and minority voters from casting ballots. Its backers said it was needed to prevent fraud.

It was the most important voting rights case since the Bush v. Gore dispute that sealed the 2000 election for George W. Bush. But the voter ID ruling lacked the conservative-liberal split that marked the 2000 case.

The law "is amply justified by the valid interest in protecting 'the integrity and reliability of the electoral process,'" Justice John Paul Stevens said in an opinion that was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Anthony Kennedy. Stevens was a dissenter in Bush v. Gore in 2000.

Justices Samuel Alito, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas also agreed with the outcome, but wrote separately.

Justices Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter dissented, just as they did in 2000.

More than 20 states require some form of identification at the polls. Courts have upheld voter ID laws in Arizona, Georgia and Michigan, but struck down Missouri's. Monday's decision comes a week before Indiana's presidential primary.

The decision also could spur efforts to pass similar laws in other states.

Ken Falk, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana, said he hadn't reviewed the decision, but he was "extremely disappointed" by it. Falk has said voter ID laws inhibit voting, and a person's right to vote "is the most important right." The ACLU brought the case on behalf of Indiana voters.

The case concerned a state law, passed in 2005, that was backed by Republicans as a way to deter voter fraud. Democrats and civil rights groups opposed the law as unconstitutional and called it a thinly veiled effort to discourage elderly, poor and minority voters — those most likely to lack proper ID and who tend to vote for Democrats.

There is little history in Indiana of either in-person voter fraud — of the sort the law was designed to thwart — or voters being inconvenienced by the law's requirements. For the overwhelming majority of voters, an Indiana driver license serves as the identification.

"We cannot conclude that the statute imposes 'excessively burdensome requirements' on any class of voters," Stevens said.

Stevens' opinion suggests that the outcome could be different in a state where voters could provide evidence that their rights had been impaired.

But in dissent, Souter said Indiana's voter ID law "threatens to impose nontrivial burdens on the voting rights of tens of thousands of the state's citizens."

Scalia, favoring a broader ruling in defense of voter ID laws, said, "The universally applicable requirements of Indiana's voter-identification law are eminently reasonable. The burden of acquiring, possessing and showing a free photo identification is simply not severe, because it does not 'even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting.'"

Stevens said the partisan divide in Indiana, as well as elsewhere, was noteworthy. But he said that preventing fraud and inspiring voter confidence were legitimate goals of the law, regardless of who backed or opposed it.

Indiana provides IDs free of charge to the poor and allows voters who lack photo ID to cast a provisional ballot and then show up within 10 days at their county courthouse to produce identification or otherwise attest to their identity.

Stevens said these provisions also help reduce the burden on people who lack driver licenses.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/ap_ ... s_voter_id

The fact it wasn't unanimous is really frightening. How could any one in that position have a problem with a voter needing to prove they are who they are before voting?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Aslanna »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The fact it wasn't unanimous is really frightening. How could any one in that position have a problem with a voter needing to prove they are who they are before voting?
Perhaps because there are other ways to prove who you are that don't require a picture ID? omg shocker! Once again you make a totally idiotic statement without framing it in the proper context of the article quoted.

Having said that I don't think it's a huge burden on the individual as long as the state implementing such a rule also provides a way to go about getting a photo identification that doesn't cost the voter anything.

Besides which voting fraud at the polls isn't what you have to be worried about. It's on the backend when full electronic voting gets put into place.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Aslanna wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The fact it wasn't unanimous is really frightening. How could any one in that position have a problem with a voter needing to prove they are who they are before voting?
Perhaps because there are other ways to prove who you are that don't require a picture ID? .
What are they?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

A copy of a current utility bill (including cell phone bill), bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the voter’s name and current address (including from a public college or university).
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Boogahz »

Spang wrote:A copy of a current utility bill (including cell phone bill), bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document that shows the voter’s name and current address (including from a public college or university).

None of which actually prove who the person holding it is. Granted, state-issued photo ID's are not all perfect either, or underage drinking with fake ID's would have never been possible.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Social Security card.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

None of which prove you are who you say you are.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Truant »

Fairweather Pure wrote:Social Security card.
Also doesn't prove anything.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Fash »

I can't tell which side anyone is on... Personally, I wasn't thinking and was a bit surprised I didn't have to show ID when I voted in the Primary... I had my wallet out and ready.

I'm in favor of requiring valid ID to vote...
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

I don't make the rules. According to the Ohio website I got that information from, those alternate forms of identification work just as well as a photo ID.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Spang wrote:I don't make the rules. According to the Ohio website I got that information from, those alternate forms of identification work just as well as a photo ID.
No one said you did man. I think we can agree it makes sense that someone should have to prove who they are before they can vote. I hope. /shrug
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Aslanna »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Aslanna wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The fact it wasn't unanimous is really frightening. How could any one in that position have a problem with a voter needing to prove they are who they are before voting?
Perhaps because there are other ways to prove who you are that don't require a picture ID? .
What are they?
The same ones people have used for decades?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

and they are???
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

It was already mentioned.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

and they were already proven to be insufficient to prove ones identity.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

I don't know what to tell you.

I guess bring a photo ID.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Spang wrote:I don't know what to tell you.

I guess bring a photo ID.
Exactly.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

But if you don't have one, there are alternative forms of identification that will get you into the voting booth.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Aslanna »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:and they were already proven to be insufficient to prove ones identity.
Yet they are sufficient to prove ones identity to actually, you know, get a picture ID in the first place? How exactly, and by whom, have they been proven insufficient?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Spang wrote:But if you don't have one, there are alternative forms of identification that will get you into the voting booth.
haha. Please tell me the valid forms of alternative identification that can prove someone is who they say they are?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

What was already mentioned above is proof enough. You can't buy beer with it, or operate a motor vehicle, but you can vote.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Aslanna wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:and they were already proven to be insufficient to prove ones identity.
Yet they are sufficient to prove ones identity to actually, you know, get a picture ID in the first place? How exactly, and by whom, have they been proven insufficient?
I think you raise a valid point about how a photo id is initially obtained. Very intersting question indeed.

The other forms alone I feel are insufficient because any scum bag can stela someones utility bills, purse/wallet and walk into a voting place. I don't feel it's much to ask for a voter to have valid photo identification. I really don't. Having a rule in place not requiring it seems to just be inviting fraud and is only in place for .000009% of voters.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

I'd like to see some numbers on how many people have stolen someone's light bill so they could vote.
Last edited by Spang on April 28, 2008, 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Boogahz »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I don't feel it's much to ask for a voter to have valid photo identification. I really don't. Having a rule in place not requiring it seems to just be inviting fraud and is only in place for .000009% of voters.
The general reason a photo ID cannot be required (around here at least) is that it has been viewed to be the same as a poll tax*.



*not to be confused with the Texas Pole Tax.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Spang wrote:I'd like to see some numbers on how many people have stolen someone's light bill so they could vote.
I couldn't imagine that has happened so that person could vote. I could only see it happen as part of a groups way of geting extra votes for a candidate. I just don't see any viable reason why it wouldn't be required to have a valid photo id.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Boogahz »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I just don't see any viable reason why it wouldn't be required to have a valid photo id.
The reason has generally been that the State collects money for an ID. Requiring people to show a photo ID, which typically is a State-issued ID, means that you could be requiring people to pay the State for the "right" to vote.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Mak »

Boogahz wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I just don't see any viable reason why it wouldn't be required to have a valid photo id.
The reason has generally been that the State collects money for an ID. Requiring people to show a photo ID, which typically is a State-issued ID, means that you could be requiring people to pay the State for the "right" to vote.
Does any state requiring photo ID to vote also require you to pay for the ID? In the above Indiana case, the new law requiring photo ID also makes them free to obtain.

By the way, who the fuck DOESN'T have a photo ID these days? And if you don't, WHY NOT?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Zaelath »

If you don't drink in bars, or drive, why would you require one?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Metanis »

Zaelath wrote:If you don't drink in bars, or drive, why would you require one?
To cash your welfare check?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Zaelath »

Metanis wrote:
Zaelath wrote:If you don't drink in bars, or drive, why would you require one?
To cash your welfare check?
Getting a little less common, but not everyone drives, or is a drunk, and much as you want to think everyone that isn't like you is a welfare leech, that's not the case either.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Kaldaur »

I would hazard a guess that many people who live in urban areas do not drive for large periods of the year. Now, whether or not that means they don't have a license is one thing. But Zaelath has a point, that just because someone doesn't have a photo ID doesn't mean they're a welfare leech.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

Lots of adults are unable to drive for many different reasons, but still have a right to vote.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Boogahz »

Mak wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I just don't see any viable reason why it wouldn't be required to have a valid photo id.
The reason has generally been that the State collects money for an ID. Requiring people to show a photo ID, which typically is a State-issued ID, means that you could be requiring people to pay the State for the "right" to vote.
Does any state requiring photo ID to vote also require you to pay for the ID? In the above Indiana case, the new law requiring photo ID also makes them free to obtain.

By the way, who the fuck DOESN'T have a photo ID these days? And if you don't, WHY NOT?
That is why, from what I understand, this law was upheld. You don't have to pay for a State ID in Indiana, so there is no undue hardship.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Truant »

I know that Texas has state issued photo ID's that aren't driver's licenses. They have the same security measures on them as far as counterfeiting goes. We also don't have to show photo ID if we present our voter registration cards. But you do have to present them if you choose to vote without having your voter registration card present. (the republicans in this state abhor the recent allowance of that)

As to other forms of ID:
My father's SS card has a psudonym on it. It's not his given name. It's not his family used nickname. It's a name he made up and went by in highschool. It doesn't match any of his other forms of ID either. They're also rediculously easy to fake.

Also, utility bill is tricky. It may not be in the names of everyone who resides at that address.

We're not that far from Federally issued photo ID's anyways.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Sylvus »

Truant wrote:We're not that far from Federally issued photo ID's anyways.
What's the argument against that again? Wouldn't it kind of be like a passport?

Speaking of, why don't they just give everyone in the US a passport, and make them free? Then you can use it to vote, or cross the border, or whatever you like.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Boogahz »

Sylvus wrote:
Truant wrote:We're not that far from Federally issued photo ID's anyways.
What's the argument against that again? Wouldn't it kind of be like a passport?
That would allow the government to easily identify illegal immigrants for detention/deportation.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

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Sweet Jesus I hope they bring the poll tax back.

Hooray for Republicans doing there damnest to take us back to the Jim Crow era.

It's pretty easy when you've got today's supreme court doing all the dirty work for you.

I mean, when one of the justices says something like this:

STAHL: If someone’s in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized, by a law enforcement person — if you listen to the expression “cruel and unusual punishment,” doesn’t that apply?

SCALIA: No. To the contrary. You think — Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don’t think so.

STAHL: Well I think if you’re in custody, and you have a policeman who’s taken you into custody–

SCALIA: And you say he’s punishing you? What’s he punishing you for? … When he’s hurting you in order to get information from you, you wouldn’t say he’s punishing you. What is he punishing you for?

Then you know everything that once made our country great is now being utterly wrecked one decision at a time.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Metanis »

I would simply advocate that conviction of voting fraudulently is punishable by death and that such death is administered immediately by members of the losing side after an election. Painfully and publicly would be my motto.

Seriously, trust in elections is crucial to the democratic process. It can be a muddy, bloody fight up until "The People" express their will at the polls. The vote itself needs to be as pristine as the driven snow.

There was outrage in the nation when hanging chad perhaps cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000. Taxpayers have spent Billions$ to have new voting machines installed to eliminate sloppiness in tallying votes.

What good is a huge investment in technology if I can walk into 20 or 30 polling places in a day and game the system? Even if only 0.001% of people have actually done it, the perception that it is easy to do will erode our trust in the process. Having lost trust in the process I might as well drop out and ignore it. Democracy goes down the drain.

The Supremes got this one absolutely correct and there wasn't a damn thing dirty about it.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Sylvus »

Tristinn wrote:Sweet Jesus I hope they bring the poll tax back.

Hooray for Republicans doing there damnest to take us back to the Jim Crow era.

It's pretty easy when you've got today's supreme court doing all the dirty work for you.

I mean, when one of the justices says something like this:

STAHL: If someone’s in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized, by a law enforcement person — if you listen to the expression “cruel and unusual punishment,” doesn’t that apply?

SCALIA: No. To the contrary. You think — Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don’t think so.

STAHL: Well I think if you’re in custody, and you have a policeman who’s taken you into custody–

SCALIA: And you say he’s punishing you? What’s he punishing you for? … When he’s hurting you in order to get information from you, you wouldn’t say he’s punishing you. What is he punishing you for?

Then you know everything that once made our country great is now being utterly wrecked one decision at a time.
You missed my favorite part of that quote.
60 Minutes wrote:The justice has been explaining his positions publicly more and more, and even delving into some thorny issues, like torture.

"I don't like torture," Scalia says. "Although defining it is going to be a nice trick. But who's in favor of it? Nobody. And we have a law against torture. But if the - everything that is hateful and odious is not covered by some provision of the Constitution," he says.

"If someone's in custody, as in Abu Ghraib, and they are brutalized by a law enforcement person, if you listen to the expression 'cruel and unusual punishment,' doesn't that apply?" Stahl asks.

"No, No," Scalia replies.

"Cruel and unusual punishment?" Stahl asks.

"To the contrary," Scalia says. "Has anybody ever referred to torture as punishment? I don't think so."

"Well, I think if you are in custody, and you have a policeman who's taken you into custody…," Stahl says.

"And you say he's punishing you?" Scalia asks.

"Sure," Stahl replies.

"What's he punishing you for? You punish somebody…," Scalia says.

"Well because he assumes you, one, either committed a crime…or that you know something that he wants to know," Stahl says.

"It's the latter. And when he's hurting you in order to get information from you…you don’t say he's punishing you. What’s he punishing you for? He's trying to extract…," Scalia says.

"Because he thinks you are a terrorist and he's going to beat the you-know-what out of you…," Stahl replies.

"Anyway, that’s my view," Scalia says. "And it happens to be correct."
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Ashur »

It sounds assinine, but from a completely legal review perspective, I think Scalia is correct.

It's not "cruel and unusual punishment" until someone's been convicted and sentenced. i.e. "You have been found guilty of the crime of buggery of a housecat in the State of Georgia and I sentence you to be tortured by 100 lashes with a wire hanger to the soles of your feet.". THAT is "cruel and unusual punishment".

What he's totally not expanding upon is that it IS illegal mistreatment of a prisoner, which should be a chargeable offense, the same if a local corrections officer were found to be beating prisoners.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Boogahz »

PUNISHMENT - Some pain or penalty warranted by law, inflicted on a person, for the commission of a crime or misdemeanor, or for the omission of the performance of an act required by law, by the judgment and command of some lawful court.
Legalese can be such a pain in the ass.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Pherr the Dorf »

You don't need one to vote absentee, nor do you remotely have to prove you are whom you say you are to vote absentee.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Pherr the Dorf wrote:You don't need one to vote absentee, nor do you remotely have to prove you are whom you say you are to vote absentee.
Who can vote absentee though?
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Pherr the Dorf wrote:You don't need one to vote absentee, nor do you remotely have to prove you are whom you say you are to vote absentee.
Who can vote absentee though?
Is that a trick question?

I'm not sure about other states, but Michigan's rules are:
Michigan's Secretary of State wrote:Absentee voter ballots are available for all elections. They provide voters with a convenient method for casting a ballot when they are unable to attend the polls on election day.

A registered voter may obtain an absentee voter ballot for an upcoming election if he or she:

*is 60 years of age or older
*is unable to vote without assistance at the polls
*expects to be absent from his or her city or township of residence for the entire time the polls are open
*is in jail awaiting arraignment or trial
*has been appointed to work as an election inspector in a precinct outside of his or her precinct of residence
*is unable to attend the polls due to his or her religious beliefs.

A person who registers to vote by mail must vote in person in the first election in which he or she participates. The restriction does not apply to overseas voters, voters who are handicapped or voters who are 60 years of age or older. (Voting in person on one governmental level clears the restriction on the other levels. For example, if a voter subject to the restriction votes in person at a school election, the voter would be free to obtain an absentee ballot for the first state election in which he or she wishes to participate.)

Requesting an Absentee Voter Ballot

Your request for an absentee voter ballot must be in writing and can be submitted to your city or township clerk. (For assistance in obtaining the address of your city or township clerk, see http://www.Michigan.gov/vote) Your request must include one of the six statutory reasons stated above and your signature. You may request an absentee voter ballot with a letter or post card, or you can obtain a pre-printed application form at your local clerk's office.
So basically, just about anyone.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Canoe »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Pherr the Dorf wrote:You don't need one to vote absentee, nor do you remotely have to prove you are whom you say you are to vote absentee.
Who can vote absentee though?
Just about anyone can vote absentee depending on the state. In fact in most (29) states you don't even need an excuse. And those excuses can be as little as "i'm away at college", but you don't need to prove the fact that you are in college or away on election day, just write it down on paper. I know this for a fact in NY because I voted absentee for several years, even though I was only about a 1/2 an hour away, but I was technically "away" at college.

Taken from this site: http://www.knowthelies.com/?q=node/45

He seems to have all the right links to the different state laws:
29 states allow no-excuse absentee voting by mail. (AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, FL, GA, HI, ID, IA, KS, ME, MD, MT, NE, NV, NJ, NM, NC, ND, OH, OK, OR, SD, UT, VT, WA, WI, WY)

21 states and the District of Columbia require an excuse to vote absentee by mail. (AL, CT, DE, DC, IL, IN, KY, LA, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, NH, NY, PA, RI, SC, TN, TX, VA, WV)
Not sure where I stand on this issue, but just thought I'd point that out.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Spang »

I would have voted absentee while I was stationed in Hawaii. Al Gore would have gotten my vote, but I never sent it in. My home of record was Florida.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Requesting an Absentee Voter Ballot

Your request for an absentee voter ballot must be in writing and can be submitted to your city or township clerk. (For assistance in obtaining the address of your city or township clerk, see http://www.Michigan.gov/vote) Your request must include one of the six statutory reasons stated above and your signature. You may request an absentee voter ballot with a letter or post card, or you can obtain a pre-printed application form at your local clerk's office.




By having to have a city or township clerk submit your request, you will have proven your identity to them. *wink*
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Requesting an Absentee Voter Ballot

Your request for an absentee voter ballot must be in writing and can be submitted to your city or township clerk. (For assistance in obtaining the address of your city or township clerk, see http://www.Michigan.gov/vote) Your request must include one of the six statutory reasons stated above and your signature. You may request an absentee voter ballot with a letter or post card, or you can obtain a pre-printed application form at your local clerk's office.




By having to have a city or township clerk submit your request, you will have proven your identity to them. *wink*
Via your letter or post card? *blink*
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

It's a request. You don't just request via a postcard and get an absentee ballot in the mail. If that is the case, then that also needs to be fixed.
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Re: I need a photo ID to vote?

Post by Sylvus »

That's exactly what you do. You can look at the application here.

They'll verify your address and signature and whatnot, but those are all things that they could do with any of the documents you mentioned earlier in the thread that had already proven insufficient.
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