Wow. Apple is using scummy tactics to gain marketshare????

[Animalor]

On 2 computers I own now that has iTunes/Quicktime installed, I've been prompted to "Update Safari 3.1" even through I don't have the software installed at all..

Interesting to see Jobs and co resorting to the old MS tricks of yore.

[Boogahz]

I haven't seen that issue pop up yet. Do you have an iPhone or iPod Touch? I am guessing it involves the browser vulnerabilities that were popping up recently with Safari. It is still odd though, since I have the Touch and haven't received the warning...

[Animalor]

Nope. I have a G3 Nano that hasn't been synced with my work laptop(appeared there on the 19th, however I did have the beta on here once upon a time) and it popped up on my Home system which I do sync my Nano this morning. However I've never had any version of Safari installed at all on that system.

[noel]

This isn't really anything new. As you said, MS has done this kind of thing forever, and for most people, the only reason they have Quicktime installed is because they have iTunes installed. Great post though.

[Animalor]

I thought there was some interest here cause even though MS still does this somewhat with every Windows version that comes out(pre-packed apps in the OS), they've been litigated into pretty much stopping this behaviour in other avenues.

Now to see Apple starting to do this is really interesting to me personally and I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out and what the general net reaction to this will be(if any).

[noel]

Well the difference is... bundling Safari as a download (that you can uncheck and NOT download) isn't actually illegal. No one's forcing you to do anything. MS has a laundry list of things they've done that are actually illegal. I don't really see the 'scummy tactics' or the direct comparison to anything MS has done.

It might surprise you to find out that like IE and Windows, Safari is installed by default with any OS X install. Of course with both OSes, I can just use Firefox and be happy. It also might surprise you to find out that Safari 3.1 is notably faster than IE or Firefox at rendering webpages. Unfortunately there are a lot of pages that are tailored for IE and don't work with Safari.

[Animalor]

But they aren't bundling Safari is what I'm coming to.

Apple installs Apple Updater as part of iTunes and Quicktime(although I believe you can opt out at installation).

If you only have Quicktime installed, Apple Updater will prompt you to install new software every day/week/month(depending on what you're setup with). The nice thing though is if you dig around the Apple Updater, there is an option in there to stop notification about specific peices of software. (Tools -> Ignore Selected Update). Another cool, off-topic thing is that I was able to type Apple Update in the Vista search bar and the app popped up right away. Wasn't expecting that to work.

I couldn't care less either way personally. I just find it humorous that the behaviour that the Apple crowd bashed MS for so long about is now starting to show up on the Apple ecosystem.

[noel]

I think the only reason the 'Apple crowd' (you spelled 'Linux/Open-Source crowd' wrong) was complaining about MS doing that shit was because of all the other ILLEGAL stuff that MS was doing.

[Truant]

So it's scummy tactics to create one updater program to handle all your programs? Even though it's configurable by the user to only apply to those programs from that list that they use?

I'm confused.

[Aardor]

So it's scummy tactics to create one updater program to handle all your programs? Even though it's configurable by the user to only apply to those programs from that list that they use?

I'm confused.

How can you update a program that has never been installed. I think the confusion is that you missed the fact that Safari was not installed, yet the updater decided to install it.

[Truant]

EDIT. NM, you're all fucking retarded. If you're really that stupid, I don't have time to explain it to you.

[Fash]

This is nothing like providing an OS with an integrated, non-removable browser (and killing an entire market segment at the time)

This is no different than the other billion FREE programs that try and get you to load something else as well. At least instead of some shitty IE toolbar or spyware, they're trying to get you to try another useful free program (which is quite a nice browser, but I still use firefox)

[Aardor]

This is nothing like providing an OS with an integrated, non-removable browser (and killing an entire market segment at the time)

This is no different than the other billion FREE programs that try and get you to load something else as well. At least instead of some shitty IE toolbar or spyware, they're trying to get you to try another useful free program (which is quite a nice browser, but I still use firefox)

Yeah, it's no different than almost every program, including antispyware apps, which try to install extra these days (though in the case of the antispyware apps, installing the google bar is nice). I noticed this yesterday, and just clicked not to install Safari, and had no problem with it.

And Truant, please do explain it. I have no idea what got your panties in such a knot, but I feel like your missing the point. The scummy tactic was installing new Apple software, software which had not been previously installed, with a program labeled as an updater. Is it different than what thousands of other software vendors, including giants like Microsoft and Adobe do? No. Is it different than what Apple has done regarding updates in Windows to date? Yes, and that's the complaint.

[Canelek]

Apps that bother me:

Java Runtime - No, I do not want to update, kthx
Quicktime - Holy crapware!
iTunes - I am too retarded to work iTunes
Adobe Acrobat - Is there a more bloated app for READING A FUCKING DOCUMENT??11?!

OK, I feel better now.

[Fash]

Amen on Acrobloat. I've never seen a shittier piece of software. The browser plug-in is even worse!

[Aardor]

At least this doesn't happen anymore (and this video rules): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS0vZFPnksk

[Aardor]

Since we started talking about other annoying things software does, my biggest pet peeve is windows update. I set it to automatic download, because I often forget to update it for months at a time. That's great, but after it downloads and installs an update which needs a restart, why did the "restart later" option disappear and you only have a range to remind you in 5 minutes to 4 hours?

Additionally, if it updates and no one is using the PC to select restart in XX hours, it restarts on its own after a given time, closing anything you had running. This is especially annoying because our customers "portal," software which we use for testing our app, runs on windows machine. No one actually logs into those boxes, besides the inital log in to start the application (IIS, nothing special), but when one of them restarts for no reason, I get about 15 emails and IMs about the portal being broken.

Edit: In case anyone asks: we don't have the rights to turn off the updater and thus the restarts. It took our customer about 6 weeks to get the MS javascript debugger installed (the good one with frontpage, not the terribad free one), so I can't imagine what it would take to get them to turn off automatic updates, and then actually run the updater once a month.

[Canelek]

The browser plug-in is even worse!

Oh man, I can't argue with that. Granted, everything Adobe is pretty much bloated to the gills, but at least their 'hardcore' apps are useful (re: Photoshop, Illustrator).

If they want to keep Acrobat so bloated, at least they could give us an option for LENSFLARE!

This was not meant as a derail, really. I am really against having "additional features" when installing a specific application.

And yes, Windows Update can be a pain in the balls too... meh!

[Ashur]

Install Shield Update Manager - wtf...

[noel]

One of the best things ever was after I got my Mac and installed Acrobat I realized that Macs come with an App called Preview that makes an Acrobat install totally unecessary.

Quicktime is actually one of the best video viewers on the market if you have the Pro version. For most PC users, VLC media player is the fucking bomb.

[Animalor]

My biggest beef with Safari is the crippled Java version that Apple puts in with it that can't run half the stuff on the net and you can't opt to use the one on the PC.

I would use Firefox before I used Safari in all honesty, even on a Mac.

[Canelek]

I only like VLC because it can handle just about anything. It can use some more features, though! However, it is free so I will not complain further.

I am sure Quicktime is great if you have a Mac. However, those of us that do not have one nor want to spend the extra $$$, find it more of a virus than useful app. ;P

[Winnow]

There's way too many useful add-ons for Firefox to use anything else. (I'd say plug-ins but people freak out over that word almost worse than the word "embedded".

When Firefox 3 gets a little more up to date on the add-on support, I'll switch over to that.

Apple is glossy evil. Jobs cares more about his turtlenecks than products except for how many units sell and that their life cycle is short.

[Canelek]

Apple is glossy evil.

Not so sure about that. However, I do think that the apple apps become evil when they are ported over to a PC.

That said, I am more a fan of bulky and functional than pretty and spacesaving.

[noel]

My biggest beef with Safari is the crippled Java version that Apple puts in with it that can't run half the stuff on the net and you can't opt to use the one on the PC.

I would use Firefox before I used Safari in all honesty, even on a Mac.

That's a 'net problem, that's common to quite a few browsers not named IE/Firefox. Safari is one of the most standards based browsers out there, unfortunately website designers code more shit for IE than for true web standards that would allow their sites to look identical regardless of browser.

I do use Firefox for almost everything. Safari is actually really nice, but there are some minor things it's missing and some compatibilities with some sites I like that makes me unable to use it full time. Any time I've had a problem with compatibility between Safari and a site, it's always been due to the site. You don't have to take my word for it, there are plenty of accessibility tools on the net you can run a site through and see for yourself.

[Aabidano]

I don't have a iPod because I don't want to deal with Apple invasionware. They're as bad as Real was before everyone abandoned them IMO. If something is quicktime only, my solution is to not watch it.

For it's intended purpose Acrobat does a good job IMO. Most of the blame generally lies with the document creators, their creation would have been nearly as big a pig under any other formatting system as well.

[Winnow]

I don't have a iPod because I don't want to deal with Apple invasionware. They're as bad as Real was before everyone abandoned them IMO. If something is quicktime only, my solution is to not watch it.

Yeah, I really wish I could run a VM version of OSX in Windows and then run iTunes in there. I really hate having to have quicktime on my PC (and all the ipod/itune hooks constantly loaded in memory) I do have OSX 4.8 or something installed as VMWare in windows but it's slow as molasses and crashes.

I may break down and buy one of those cheapo apple mini's just for iTunes and the very rare OSX app I might want to use. Hate to give that company any more of my money though. (wired keyboard rocks though!)

[Animalor]

Safari is one of the most standards based browsers out there, unfortunately website designers code more shit for IE than for true web standards that would allow their sites to look identical regardless of browser.

That Safari is the one of the most standard-oriented browser out there is surprising to me. I always thought that honor would've gone to Firefox or Opera.

Then again, I shouldn't be one to comment on browsers. I never really adopted Firefox or any other browser than IE since it really has always done what I needed it to do. (Although FF is really growing on me)

[noel]

I liked IE until 7. Absolutely hated the interface. Personal preference stuff really. I do still use the browser from time to time, but I prefer Firefox.

[Animalor]

Mozilla's CEO isn't particularly fond of this move by Apple, but mostly becuase he sees it as an abuse of the trust people place in the auto-updates found in software packages.

http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/03/21/appl ... are-update

[Funkmasterr]

Apps that bother me:

Java Runtime - No, I do not want to update, kthx
Quicktime - Holy crapware!
iTunes - I am too retarded to work iTunes
Adobe Acrobat - Is there a more bloated app for READING A FUCKING DOCUMENT??11?!

OK, I feel better now.

If you have JRE or JDK installed on your pc you can easily disable the update checking, like faster than I wrote this post. If you really wanted to start bitching about sun mircrosystems and java in general though I could probably write a 25 page report.

[Siji]

I could probably plagiarize a 25 page report from Wiki.

Fixed.

[Spang]

Apple wanted to update Safari on my PC today, even though I didn't have Safari installed on it, and I wasn't outraged.

[Tyek]

I just got the message to0. I know nothing about safari though, so I said No.

[Animalor]

Apple's released an update to Apple Software Update due to, I assume, pressures from the online community.

This new version apparently clearly distinguishes between updates to currently installed software and New Software being offered. There's also an option to turn off Apple Software Update off alotgether.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/int ... =207400701