Playing the Devil's advocate

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Nick
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Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080317/ts_nm/iraq_dc

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney on Monday declared the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq a "successful endeavor," pointing to security and political progress on a visit ahead of the fifth anniversary of the war.
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"If you look back on those five years it has been a difficult, challenging but nonetheless successful endeavor ... and it has been well worth the effort," he told a news conference in Baghdad after meeting Iraqi leaders.

The Iraq war, deeply unpopular among many Americans, is a major issue in the U.S. presidential campaign.

Cheney, an architect of the invasion, arrived as Republican presidential candidate John McCain was meeting Iraqi leaders as part of a Senate Armed Services Committee fact-finding mission.

"I was last in Baghdad 10 months ago and I sense that, as a result of the progress that has been made since then, phenomenal changes in terms of the overall situation," Cheney said after meeting Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.

Cheney said there had been a "remarkable turnaround" in security after 30,000 extra troops were sent to Iraq last year to help reduce sectarian violence that threatened civil war.

Despite the improved security, however, some 4 million Iraqis are still displaced, and the International Committee of the Red Cross said in a report on Monday that millions were still deprived of clean water and medical care.

Like McCain, Cheney is in Iraq as part of a wider tour to the Middle East. Cheney will also visit Saudi Arabia, Jerusalem, the Palestinian territories, Turkey and Oman on a nine-day tour.

Both men have been staunch supporters of the U.S. troop build-up that Washington says helped drag Iraq back from the brink of all-out sectarian civil war between majority Shi'ites and minority Sunni Muslims who were dominant under Saddam.

"The surge is working," McCain, referring to the troop build-up, told CNN in an interview in Baghdad.

Cheney was met on his arrival in Baghdad by General David Petraeus, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq. He last visited Baghdad in May 2007, a month before the deployment of an extra 30,000 troops was completed.

"There is still a lot of difficult work that must be done, but as we move forward the Iraqi people should know that they will have the unwavering support of President Bush and the United States in consolidating their democracy," Cheney said after meeting Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, head of Iraq's largest Shi'ite political bloc, the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council.

VIOLENCE DOWN

The U.S. military says attacks across Iraq have fallen by 60 percent since last June, when the troop build-up was completed, but says a spike in violence since January is not a trend.

Neighborhood security units set up by mainly Sunni Arab tribal leaders and a ceasefire ordered by anti-U.S. Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr for his Mehdi Army militia have also contributed to bringing down violence, the U.S. military says.

A poll of 2,000 people from across Iraq, commissioned by international broadcasters including the BBC and U.S. network ABC, found that 55 percent believe their lives are now better.

But violence is still a daily threat despite security gains.

Roadside bombs and a minibus packed with explosives killed four people, including a policeman, and wounded 13 others in four attacks across Baghdad, police said. Neither Cheney nor McCain were in the area at the time.

Among the political issues Cheney and McCain discussed with Iraq's leaders are a stalled hydrocarbon law, one of Washington's reconciliation benchmarks, U.S. officials said.

The law will share revenues from Iraq's vast oil reserves, the world's third largest, but remains blocked because of reluctance to compromise among Iraq's political blocs.

Cheney and Maliki also discussed security and the future relationship between Washington and Baghdad after the U.N. mandate for the U.S. presence expires at the end of 2008, with talks on that pact to include the presence of U.S. troops.

"This visit is important because it comes at a time when there's a great deal of progress taking place in Iraq," Maliki said through a translator after meeting Cheney.

Cheney also met Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and Iraq's two vice-presidents.

Cheney and McCain were not expected to meet in Iraq.
Talk about being fucking disconnected from reality. :roll:
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Fash »

Nick wrote:Talk about being fucking disconnected from reality. :roll:
You are, aren't you?

We all are. None of us knows what's going on over there. Have an open mind.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

Speak for yourself.

It's not like it's impossible to go find out information about Iraq - for example here in the UK today there is the beginnings of a week long hour special every night (and this is just for the lazy ones) with the most comprehensive reports/polls and information from the Iraqi people themselves done thus far.

So don't hide behind ignorance just because you don't have the gumption/balls/brains to call a spade a spade ok?
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:Speak for yourself.

It's not like it's impossible to go find out information about Iraq - for example here in the UK today there is the beginnings of a week long hour special every night (and this is just for the lazy ones) with the most comprehensive reports/polls and information from the Iraqi people themselves done thus far.

So don't hide behind ignorance just because you don't have the gumption/balls/brains to call a spade a spade ok?
You are just so full of blind hatred for anything related to the US that it skews your view on everything.

What the media is reporting is happening there is 1- not necessarily 100% true and 2- not necessarily the whole story, which you need to draw the conclusions and make the claims and comments that you make constantly.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Fash »

The media has been pretty favorable lately, so I don't know where this is coming from... There has been pretty positive news from Iraq and conclusions on the surge have been favorable almost all around... Progress is being made, and needs to be made.

Your attitude seems to be that it will never get better, which is pretty shitty. Don't you think we're trying?
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

You are just so full of blind hatred for anything related to the US that it skews your view on everything.
That's absolute nonsense. It's the same tired old argument trotted out everytime anyone criticises the Iraq war (OMG U HATE THE COUNTRY). Fucking yawn. Try harder.

What I do hate is fence sitters like you who don't have the ability to open their eyes - even whilst having been sitting in front of obvious failure for the last five years
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

Fash wrote:Your attitude seems to be that it will never get better, which is pretty shitty. Don't you think we're trying?
I think what the US has done is slightly shittier, but I don't see you ever make that point. Where are you priorities exactly? Oh and yes, the US is trying, it's just not succeeding very well, and it never needed to "try" if it hadn't been so fucking retarded in the first place.

In fairness, none of you personally did this, although I do remember a lot of you supporting it, so you are guilty by association/ignorance/retardedness. I think American's don't actually fully understand what this has done to how people actually view their country/ideals from the outside.

The reality is, if the Vice President of your country thinks that Iraq is a success, America's version of "successful" is about the same levels as everyone elses "complete failure".
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Fash »

Despite how 'shitty' the start of it may have been, that has to be put aside... It really does. We can't change the past.

What matters is progress, fixing the shitty situation and getting out. There are not many, if any, who would argue this point.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:
You are just so full of blind hatred for anything related to the US that it skews your view on everything.
That's absolute nonsense. It's the same tired old argument trotted out everytime anyone criticises the Iraq war (OMG U HATE THE COUNTRY). Fucking yawn. Try harder.

What I do hate is fence sitters like you who don't have the ability to open their eyes - even whilst having been sitting in front of obvious failure for the last five years
It's not nonsense, and I don't say that solely based on your stance on the war in Iraq - it stands for anything that is in any way related to the US, and you denying that is the only lunacy in this thread.

Any desire I have to rehash this conversation that's taken place in this forum 8 trillion times is completely extinguished by your "fucking america" attitude, it turns my stomach.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

Fash wrote:Despite how 'shitty' the start of it may have been, that has to be put aside... It really does. We can't change the past.
Yes, the US does want to ignore its own role now because its embarrassing. It's called "you're not being let off that lightly boyo." Unfortunately, billions of other people on Earth would like to keep reminding you, because, hey, it's the least you deserve.
What matters is progress, fixing the shitty situation and getting out. There are not many, if any, who would argue this point.

Yes of course, except a wilfull disregard by the American public to actually take responsibility whle attempting to forget the past doesn't fall into this category just because you want it to.

Anyway, anyone who happens to support Cheney's assessment of the Iraq War needs a bullet in the head. Pretty straightforward.
Any desire I have to rehash this conversation that's taken place in this forum 8 trillion times is completely extinguished by your "fucking america" attitude, it turns my stomach.
Not that extinguished obviously, since you're posting again, after saying you were leaving with your tail between your legs.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Boogahz »

dev·il's advocate
n.
One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position.
How about updating the thread title? I thought you were actually going to be entertaining a point of view unlike your own for once to see how it went. After clicking on the thread, this is not the case!
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Fash wrote:The media has been pretty favorable lately, so I don't know where this is coming from... There has been pretty positive news from Iraq and conclusions on the surge have been favorable almost all around... Progress is being made, and needs to be made.

Your attitude seems to be that it will never get better, which is pretty shitty. Don't you think we're trying?
Favorable? Not really. However, since things are going well, they don't talk about it much. So that can be viewed as favorable I guess. They sure don't wish to show that the long term effort is working. The effort was never a failure, because it was always a long term effort. All negative things being said and pushed down the worlds throats was for political purposes only. And, it worked:(
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Forthe »

The US media has lost interest in Iraq and is doing a piss poor job.

I've seen this line repeated in several stories:
"Neighborhood security units set up by mainly Sunni Arab tribal leaders and a ceasefire ordered by anti-U.S. Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr for his Mehdi Army militia have also contributed to bringing down violence, the U.S. military says."

The "Awakening" (mentioned above as Sunni Arab tribal leaders) is one of the most important reasons violence was down, it is also one of the biggest dangers facing Iraq.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

Boogahz wrote:
dev·il's advocate
n.
One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position.
How about updating the thread title? I thought you were actually going to be entertaining a point of view unlike your own for once to see how it went. After clicking on the thread, this is not the case!
It was a play on words, since Cheney is clearly the spawn of satan, or at least a close affiliate. Also, "great satan" + his interpretation of "success" vs everyone else in the world etc etc. I didn't think it would be that difficult for you to understand the double meaning :P
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote: It was a play on words, since Cheney is clearly the spawn of satan, or at least a close affiliate.
What a fool you are.
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

pls make sense next time and/or make a contribution worth reading. tia
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:pls make sense next time and/or make a contribution worth reading. tia
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Nick »

Especially considering the added media coverage this week because of the 5th anniversary of the invasion, the only people who need to look in the mirror again are the ones still living in the delusion that Iraq is anywhere near even being the most basic of peaceful states. The surge has reduced violence in Baghdad, of course, but until any of you are able to walk freely for 5 minutes outside the Green zone without being shot, you should stop being such spineless uninformed chicken hawks.

Paying off murderous militia's might work in the short term, but when that money dries up...well...

Also, Al Quaida will see Iraq as a success, and by attracting more muslims to fight against the USA, the USA makes itself less safe and more vilified. How is that a success? (Also, rebuilding Iraq doesn't and will never negate that particular fact (and it is a fact).
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Re: Playing the Devil's advocate

Post by Tyek »

I don't see Iraq as a success, but if we leave now things will get worse and we will probably have to come back to help stabalize the situation.

I have a cousin who did 2 tours. He came back and you can see the horrors he witnessed in his face. He told me that whenever someone was put in charge they knew if he was corrupt within a day. The ones who wanted to change things and stabilize the area were found beheaded in the desert, usually within a day and the ones that lived were tied to some militant group or were on the payoll of some radical leader.

The biggest mistake the US made was not realizing that they are dealing with a foe that has little to no respect for human life. We were told we were fighting the Taliban, Al Queda and Hussain. Who we really are fighting is a small group of radical muslims who will stop at nothing, including the death of supposed love ones, to gain power in a war torn region. (Note I said radical Muslims, I think we are talking about a very minor portion of the population, and one that has twisted the true beliefs of the religion)

This region of the world predates almost all other cultures, yet it's most radical clerics seem to want to live the same way they did 2000 years ago with the same laws and beliefs. The same pathetic belief that as men they are greater then women.

I wish we had never entered this war because as bad as he was, Hussain was able to somewhat control these groups. He did this through torture, mass murder and his own high levels of corruptions, much more then the US people would allow. (If you disagree, look at the response the US people had to Gitmo, it was mostly negative press and the US general population were pretty upset over it.)

I seem to recall your government was involved at the start of this war as well. Now that we are there, I would love to see us leave, but again there really is no easy way out. If we pack up and go all hell will break loose in that country and we will be blamed even more for leaving then we are for staying.
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