Freedom of Religion, or Sexism?

[Sylvus]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080304/ap_ ... _s_hours_4

BOSTON - In a test of Harvard's famed open-mindedness, the university has banned men from one of its gyms for a few hours a week to accommodate Muslim women who say it offends their sense of modesty to exercise in front of the opposite sex.

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The policy is already unpopular with many on campus, including some women who consider it sexist.

"I think that it's incorrect in a college setting to institute a policy in which half of the campus gets wronged or denied a resource that's supposed to be for everyone," said student Lucy Caldwell, who also wrote a column in The Harvard Crimson newspaper critical of the new hours.

Student Ola Aljawhary, who is Muslim and works out elsewhere on campus but is not one of the women who requested the change, rejected that argument.

"The majority should be willing to compromise," she said. "I think that's just basic courtesy. We must show tolerance and respect for all others."

The trial policy went into effect Feb. 4, about a month after a group of six Muslim women, with the support of the Harvard College Women's Center, asked the university for the special hours, spokesman Robert Mitchell said.

"We get special requests from religious groups all the time and we try to honor them whenever possible," he said, noting that the school has designated spaces for Muslim and Hindu students to pray.

No men are allowed in the gym between 3 p.m. and 5 p.m. on Mondays, and between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Even the staff during those times is all women.

The special hours allow the Muslim women, who adhere to traditional dress codes by covering their hair and most of their skin while in public, to dress more appropriately for exercising, said Susan Marine, director of the women's center.

"It's a pretty big breach of their moral and religious code for a man to see them with their hair uncovered and it's just not possible for them to be in a mixed environment," she said.

When student Kareem Shuman showed up to work out at the gym on Monday morning, he was turned away but didn't mind.

"Knowing it was requested by women of my faith — it's very understandable to me," said Shuman, 21, who figured he'd just come back later for his workout.

Other men find the new hours inconvenient. Nick Wells, a junior who wrote an opinion piece in the Crimson criticizing the policy, suggested setting aside one room for women.

"It's not that I am opposed to the idea of helping people in religious groups or women in general, but I just think Harvard is not being fair to people like me who live (near the gym)," Wells said in an interview.

The policy only applies to one gym, a facility mainly used for intramurals. Because of its location at the edge of campus, it is the university's least used gym, Mitchell said.

The women-only hours are of minimal inconvenience because they are just six out of the 70 hours a week the gym is open, Marine said.

"Harvard has a moral and ethical responsibility to make sure our students can stay healthy," she said.

An Associated Press reporter who went to the gym Monday did not see any Muslim women entering. Efforts to reach some of the women who requested the policy through the Women's Center were unsuccessful.

The policy will be reviewed at the end of the semester, Mitchell said.

Kent Blumenthal, executive director of the National Intramural-Recreational Sports Association, which has 660 member colleges and universities nationwide, said he could not think of any other institution with a similar policy.

"It seems in some ways contrary to the purpose of campus recreational programs, which is all about access," he said.

Harvard's policy is no different from commercial gyms that cater partially or even exclusively to women, said Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations.

"The Muslim bashers portray it as the world coming to end, but if women have a couple hours a week to work out in private, I don't see it as a major issue," he said.

What do you think, good policy or no? Sure, only 6 people requested it, but remaining covered while in public with men around is a pretty important tenet of their faith. It only closes (to men) the least-used gym on campus for less than 10% of the hours that it is open. I'm unaware of the athletic facilities at Harvard, but there are lots of gyms at the University of Michigan; I don't know that not allowing men at one of them for 6 hours a week would be anything other than a minor inconvenience to anyone.

[Ashur]

It's officially "No Big Deal" in The Book of Ashur.

[Nick]

They should go to an all women's gym if they are going to cry about it so hard. The men who use the gym during those hours who don't believe in a fictional entity are being shafted.

[Noysyrump]

assimilate or gtfo.

If you cant excersise in front of men, you dont belong in public then.

I dare you to try and get a mens only, or christians only, or someshit like that time, they will laugh you the fuck on out, but islam... oh gotta do it for them.

[Drinsic Darkwood]

In terms of the effect, it seems like the inconvenience is negligible. In terms of principle, it's horseshit.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

assimilate or gtfo.

If you cant excersise in front of men, you dont belong in public then.

I dare you to try and get a mens only, or christians only, or someshit like that time, they will laugh you the fuck on out, but islam... oh gotta do it for them.

Do you mean assimilate or integrate?

[Noysyrump]

I Believe i mean assimilate, cant be bothered to look it up to be sure! But if they cant fit with what is normal, then they should hide in thier closets, not change everyone else to be like them.

[Canelek]

When did they get gyms at Harvard? I thought they spent all their time rowing or tying sweaters around each others' waists.

[Aabidano]

I don't see a problem with it. Monitor usage and if it doesn't see enough, go back to normal.

[Sueven]

My problem is that the justification is based particularly on religion.

I don't have a problem with women-only gyms or gym hours. This is apparently taking place at one of six gyms on Harvard's campus, for less than 10% of it's operating time. It's not like men are unable to work out as a result of the policy. There are some women who benefit very much from womens-only gyms, for a variety of reasons. Some of them are prior victims of sexual assault, some are muslims, some are just uncomfortable around men. It's not my place (or Noysy's place) to judge those preferences. If providing womens-only gyms helps get women exercising and healthy who would otherwise be unable, great. The success of places like Curves is testimony to the existence of the need.

But this is not phrased as a policy designed to accommodate the converging preferences of diverse women. It's phrased as a policy designed to accommodate the preferences of Muslim women.

What if a group of extremely conservative Christian students asked for heterosexual-only hours, because their religious beliefs are offended and they are made uncomfortable by the presence of homosexuals in the locker rooms and while scantily clad and exerting themselves physically in the gym. Would we take this request seriously? The two requests can be distinguished, but we shouldn't be in the business of making those distinctions. It is not our place to say that the importance of one religious need outweighs the importance of another-- that is EXACTLY the sort of decision that belongs to the individual conscience and not society.

This is not freedom of religion-- it's preferential treatment of one religion.

[masteen]

What if a group of extremely conservative Christian students asked for heterosexual-only hours, because their religious beliefs are offended and they are made uncomfortable by the presence of homosexuals in the locker rooms and while scantily clad and exerting themselves physically in the gym. Would we take this request seriously? The two requests can be distinguished, but we shouldn't be in the business of making those distinctions. It is not our place to say that the importance of one religious need outweighs the importance of another-- that is EXACTLY the sort of decision that belongs to the individual conscience and not society.

This is why it's bullshit. We (as a society) have said the Chrispies are wrong to want to discriminate against the gays, but we're going to say it's OK to allow public buildings to segregate sexes because the Muslims believe it? I don't like where the lines are being drawn, because to me, BOTH prohibitions are equally worthless.

I have no problem with them doing what they want in their temples or homes or whatever. There are mikvahs all over the country, built by the Jews for their own use, and that's just awesome for them. If they started demanding public funding to build them, I'd take issue.

[Asheran Mojomaster]

If your school has six gyms I don't see why 2 of them are not female \ male only. I'm not talking about for any religious reason, but simply because some women would feel more comfortable working out without men around because they may feel they are being stared at. At the same time some men may be embarrassed to work out in front of women. Maybe they are afraid they will be seen as weak. I've had many male friends of mine who didn't go to gyms just because they didn't want people laughing when they could only lift a little bit of weight...which just causes the problem to get worse.

Oh, and if Kwon is reading this, I've used a lot of your advice in the forums over the past few years of working out off and on. I'm still stuck weighing 130 lbs, but at around 3 or 4% body fat maybe and recently benched 200 lbs for the first time! Woo!

[Tyek]

What if a group of extremely conservative Christian students asked for heterosexual-only hours, because their religious beliefs are offended and they are made uncomfortable by the presence of homosexuals in the locker rooms and while scantily clad and exerting themselves physically in the gym.

I call that SEXY time.





I do agree with the idea that they turn 2 gyms into same sex only gyms. Seems simple enough and the students can decide for themselves. To do it for any religion is wrong.

[Aslanna]

I'm still stuck weighing 130 lbs, but at around 3 or 4% body fat maybe and recently benched 200 lbs for the first time! Woo!

You may want to go eat a box of Snickers or something. Anything under 6% for males (9% for females) is considered unsafe.

[Animalor]

Err correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 130lbs the healthy weight for a woman??

[masteen]

If she's like 6 feet tall.

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

I Believe i mean assimilate, cant be bothered to look it up to be sure! But if they cant fit with what is normal, then they should hide in thier closets, not change everyone else to be like them.

I believe I'm done here, y'honor.

[Zaelath]

I'd be OK with it if they had men only hours too.

[Forthe]

I do not agree with this. I accept making allowances for personal circumstances that people can not change (i.e. handicapped accesss, parking) but not for things that a person has chosen for themselves (i.e. religion). No matter how minor the inconvenience it is not right for someone's personal beliefs to affect others.

Go to a private establishment that will cater to your religous beliefs or form a group and open one yourself.

[Sueven]

Quick point: Harvard is a private establishment and can cater to anyone it pleases. This is not the same thing as a government providing differential access to public facilities. My criticisms of it are in the sense of "Harvard, I think that this is a stupid decision of yours because..." and not "Harvard, you don't have the right to do this because..."

[Forthe]

I understood that this was a private establishment. I'm arguing basic right vs wrong, not constitutional rights. I'm also assuming that the people (males) not able to use the facilities are tuition paying students.

[Sueven]

yeah, i wasn't trying to argue against you, just making a general point that your post prompted

[Nick]

It didn't really prompt that question, everyone already knew that. The principal, which you obviously get, remains though.

[Sueven]

well then ignore the post and scroll up to read what i think about the principle

[Nick]

I was just calling out your pedantry, you pedantic fucker!

[Gzette]

pedantic is probably the most pedantic word in the english language

[Nick]

word is probably the most wordish word in the english language.

[Sueven]

your mother provides the most your mother like sex on the eastern seaboard

[Nick]

Maybe you weren't being pedantic after all, maybe you are just a moron. my mistake.

[Gzette]

WORD

[Sueven]

Maybe you weren't being pedantic after all, maybe you are just a moron. my mistake.

And this is the thread that convinced you? Really?

[Xatrei]

If she's like 6 feet tall.

That's fucked up. 130 is almost dead in the middle of the healthy weight range for a 5'5" woman (the average height of a white female in the US). People having such an unrealistic view of an ideal body are the reasons why so many young women are fucked in the head when it comes to body image.

[rhyae]

If she's like 6 feet tall.

That's fucked up. 130 is almost dead in the middle of the healthy weight range for a 5'5" woman (the average height of a white female in the US). People having such an unrealistic view of an ideal body are the reasons why so many young women are fucked in the head when it comes to body image.

He lives in Florida, if you arent 6' and 130 there you should stay at home in the dark, hiding where you belong.
Wait, do I sound bitter?

[Sylvus]

If she's like 6 feet tall.

That's fucked up. 130 is almost dead in the middle of the healthy weight range for a 5'5" woman (the average height of a white female in the US). People having such an unrealistic view of an ideal body are the reasons why so many young women are fucked in the head when it comes to body image.

That is pretty messed up. 5'10-5'11 and 130 is totally fine in my book. At 6' you could go up to as much as 135.

[Winnow]

130lbs = one ass cheek on Kwon's women.

[Forthe]

yeah, i wasn't trying to argue against you, just making a general point that your post prompted

If my response came across as argumentative or defensive it wasn't meant to be. Just trying to be clear.

Word.

[Sueven]

Word.

Your mother.

[masteen]

If she's like 6 feet tall.

That's fucked up. 130 is almost dead in the middle of the healthy weight range for a 5'5" woman (the average height of a white female in the US). People having such an unrealistic view of an ideal body are the reasons why so many young women are fucked in the head when it comes to body image.

That is pretty messed up. 5'10-5'11 and 130 is totally fine in my book. At 6' you could go up to as much as 135.

Chubby chaser.

[Noysyrump]

One of the Hotest girls I ever dated was 5'5 130 lbs...





It was 33lbs of booby though.





... see, they were HUGE!~

[Asheran Mojomaster]

I'm still stuck weighing 130 lbs, but at around 3 or 4% body fat maybe and recently benched 200 lbs for the first time! Woo!

You may want to go eat a box of Snickers or something. Anything under 6% for males (9% for females) is considered unsafe.

I believe its only unsafe if you starve yourself to get to that point. This is just how I am naturally. I've only been over 6% bodyfat ONCE and that was after a summer of drinking 12+ beers a day and eating only fast food. I still only made it to around 8% body fat and 148 lbs, but as soon as I stopped doing that and went back to normal eating habits (not completely healthy, but I try to eat well when I can, and at least 2000+ calories and 100+ grams of protein when I can) and stopped drinking I dropped back to 130 within about 2 or 3 months. I just can't keep the weight.

BTW, it was funny as hell seeing a skinny guy like me with a beer belly. I actually kinda liked it, but I'm glad I have my 6-pack back now.

[Aslanna]

I'm still stuck weighing 130 lbs, but at around 3 or 4% body fat maybe and recently benched 200 lbs for the first time! Woo!

You may want to go eat a box of Snickers or something. Anything under 6% for males (9% for females) is considered unsafe.

I believe its only unsafe if you starve yourself to get to that point. This is just how I am naturally. I've only been over 6% bodyfat ONCE and that was after a summer of drinking 12+ beers a day and eating only fast food.

Who am I to argue with science. That's just what they say.

Then again perhaps the technique you're using to calculate body fat isn't as accurate as you think!

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

One of the Hotest girls I ever dated was 5'5 130 lbs...





It was 33lbs of booby though.





... see, they were HUGE!~

Are real dolls that heavy?

[Asheran Mojomaster]

I'm still stuck weighing 130 lbs, but at around 3 or 4% body fat maybe and recently benched 200 lbs for the first time! Woo!

You may want to go eat a box of Snickers or something. Anything under 6% for males (9% for females) is considered unsafe.

I believe its only unsafe if you starve yourself to get to that point. This is just how I am naturally. I've only been over 6% bodyfat ONCE and that was after a summer of drinking 12+ beers a day and eating only fast food.

Who am I to argue with science. That's just what they say.

Then again perhaps the technique you're using to calculate body fat isn't as accurate as you think!

Yeah, it isn't healthy I'm sure, but theres nothing I can do to fix it except stuff myself to the point of almost puking all day every day, and I think that would be much worse for my body. Body builders often have 2 or 3% bodyfat. Also, I don't calculate it myself. I have had it checked at a few different gyms over a few years and it always stays around that level, with the exception of my binge drinking summer of course.