NBA Discussion Thread*

noel · Post by **noel** » February 24, 2008, 6:41 pm

Winnow wrote:"This West is no joke," Boston's Kevin Garnett said. "I said it before the trip that it's going to be a test, and that's what it's become."

I wonder what 'Sheed will say about the West after today's game against the Suns.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » February 24, 2008, 6:53 pm

noel wrote:
Winnow wrote:"This West is no joke," Boston's Kevin Garnett said. "I said it before the trip that it's going to be a test, and that's what it's become."
I wonder what 'Sheed will say about the West after today's game against the Suns.

He'll probably say they're just another bunch of teams to slaughter.

Put that avatar up, Winnow!

Winnow wrote:It's obvious the Suns aren't going to be pushed around anymore.

27 32 31 <--- Pistons' first three quarters against the Suns
16 25 17 <--- Suns' first three quarters against the Pistons

Eat those stats for breakfast.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 24, 2008, 7:41 pm

On a slightly related/unrelated note. There's a picture of Nash in this month's issue of Men's Health doing what looks like an Arnold Press on a Vew-Do blanace board (below):

Apparently he does nearly his entire strength routine on that thing which assists him in having excellent core strength and balance. If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt it, it's one of the coolest things I've seen. Strength training is hard enough without doing it balancing on a skateboard deck that's mounted on a rolling pin.

The article goes on to claim that workouts that include tools like the balance board are a contributing factor to the Suns consistently ranking among the most injury-free franchises in the NBA. I always thought Grant Hill went to the Suns to win a championship, but I guess now we know the real reason!

(btw, last sentence was a total joke. G. Hill is the fucking man, and I still really like the Suns/Nash-- even with Shaq)

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 24, 2008, 9:15 pm

The Suns got the crap beat out of them by Detroit. Hopefully they'll remember that and come to play next time if they meet in the championship.

At least they put a beat down on Boston so Kilmoll can't say anything. (Cardinals beat the Steelers as well this year in case you had forgotten!)

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 25, 2008, 1:59 pm

Regular seasons do not mean that much to me. It is nice for stats and maybe see how you will stack up....but it matters not until the playoffs. I would have to live in Arizona or something for reglar season wins to excite me.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 25, 2008, 3:22 pm

Hey who made it further in the playoffs this year, the Arizona Cardinals or the Pittsburgh Steelers?

Ohhh that's right... the Cardinals didn't MAKE the playoffs.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 25, 2008, 4:09 pm

Sueven wrote:Hey who made it further in the playoffs this year, the Arizona Cardinals or the Pittsburgh Steelers?

Ohhh that's right... the Cardinals didn't MAKE the playoffs.

Sure, pick on the one sport of the big three where AZ didn't do well last year!

D-Backs (top four finish, World Series National League runner ups)
Suns (True Champions and Pacific Division Champs 4X running)

The Cardinals have improved their record each year the past three years. They have to have a winning this year or they'll break their improving trend.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 25, 2008, 6:13 pm

You're the one who started bragging about them

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » February 26, 2008, 1:56 am

Suns? Embarassed.
Nuggets? Beaten.

West ain't shit. Utah's next to go in a couple of days.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 26, 2008, 2:31 am

Beat the Spurs then we'll talk.

If the Nuggets are a bar by which you rate yourselves, I pity you.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » February 26, 2008, 2:42 am

noel wrote:Beat the Spurs then we'll talk.

If the Nuggets are a bar by which you rate yourselves, I pity you.

Weird situation to involve pity in. The Nuggets are above .500 against Western Conference foes and that is a lot more than most of the Eastern Conference teams can say, so yes, beating the team with two of the top four scoring leaders in the NBA is an accomplishment worth noting, especially with people saying the Pistons aren't as good as they appear to be because of their conference.

The Spurs aren't going anywhere this year. Every other Western team is younger and will be comparatively fresher come playoff time. I don't see Manu and company getting past the second round.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 26, 2008, 1:10 pm

noel wrote:Beat the Spurs then we'll talk.

If the Nuggets are a bar by which you rate yourselves, I pity you.

Celtics are 2-0 against the Spurs. Of course as you and I both can comprehend, this is not the playoffs. (But you invited talking!)

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » February 29, 2008, 2:03 pm

Excellent Spurs vs Mavs game last night. The "boring" style of basketball had me on the edge of my seat the entire game. Game was within 5 points for almost all of the 3rd and 4th quarter, and the game ended with an amazing block by Bruce Bowen.

The second game, Lakers vs Heat was not nearly as exciting. However, Kobe is playing defense with more enthusiasm than he has in years, and it really shows. He held Dwayne Wade scoreless for most of the first half, and managed to get Wade up to 5 fouls by the end. The Lakers have a very strong chance at the championship, even if Bynum does not come back.

It is scary how good the West is.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 1, 2008, 8:05 pm

The funny thing about the Lakers/Heat game was how bad Marion looks without Nash.

Guess that answers the MVP-time questions about whether it was Nash or the people around him that made him great.

StupidMcDupid · Post by **StupidMcDupid** » March 2, 2008, 1:50 am

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
noel wrote:Beat the Spurs then we'll talk.

If the Nuggets are a bar by which you rate yourselves, I pity you.

Celtics are 2-0 against the Spurs. Of course as you and I both can comprehend, this is not the playoffs. (But you invited talking!)

Celtics are 1-0 vs the Spurs this year.That game was too early in the year,and 2 key guys were out for that game (Parker and Garnett).We got them at home in March when the real shit starts.We also just took the top spot in the west,and now is the time when the spurs start turning it on. This years Finals will be between Detroit and San Antonio,where we will re-peat and send the pistons home bitching again

By the way nice move Phoenix on getting Shaq

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » March 2, 2008, 3:21 am

76ers destroy the Suns!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 2, 2008, 3:47 am

The Suns can't beat anyone right now!

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » March 6, 2008, 11:01 pm

Winnow is pumped McCain won the Republican nomination: finally someone from Arizona won something!!!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 6, 2008, 11:16 pm

Shaq had 12pts, 18rbs last night! He's steadily improving although obviously the team isn't in sync yet. Now that I watch Shaq every game he plays, I see how much of a beating he takes. Hard fouls every time. I know it's due to his free throw but it must suck to get pounded that often.

Don't forget about the Phoenix Mercury's championship last year!

noel · Post by **noel** » March 9, 2008, 7:36 pm

Phoenix played really well today and I'm glad they won! Great job by Shaq. I feel bad for him with the position he's in given his age and the miles on his body.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 9, 2008, 7:55 pm

noel wrote:Phoenix played really well today and I'm glad they won! Great job by Shaq. I feel bad for him with the position he's in given his age and the miles on his body.

Take that Spurs! Suns are undefeated vs Spurs since Shaq joined the team.

Did you see Shaq dive into the stands? He had to do that or he would have crushed those two kids in the first row. All parties involved are lucky there were no injuries. Good to see him that energetic!

I saw a lot more physical, "fuck you refs, were going to cheat like the Spurs" type play out of the Suns today. Looks like they have finally decided that the refs and the lame NBA aren't going to reward quality teams so will go the thug route. Grats on ruining the league Stern.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » March 9, 2008, 8:31 pm

Did you see Shaq dive into the stands? He had to do that or he would have crushed those two kids in the first row. All parties involved are lucky there were no injuries. Good to see him that energetic!

I saw it on Sportscenter and about died laughing.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 10, 2008, 12:20 am

Here's ESPN video of Shaq's dive into the seats:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/vid ... Id=2378529

Menelaos · Post by **Menelaos** » March 11, 2008, 2:56 pm

The West ain't shit? And that's why the EIGHTH PLACE Warriors would be fucking #3 seeds in the East? Is that why the combined average record of the top eight teams in the west is a full 15ish games higher than the equivalent in the East?

I mean, there is team loyalty, and then there is just plain ignorance. The West is going to set all-time records this year in combined win percentage for their 8 playoff teams, and will have the team with the highest winning percentage ever not to make the playoffs.

There are two teams that are worth a damn in the East, and 9, maybe 10 teams in the West that are all jockeying for #1 seed. The spread between the 1st and 8th seeds is only 4.5 games. The East is a fucking joke, and the records of the Celtics and Pistons are highly inflated due to that fact. Manu and company don't stand a chance of making it out of the second round eh? And yet they are defending champions and The Team To Beat year in and year out. I hate the Spurs, but there is no denying they are The Best.

That said, Go Warriors! #1 Offense, #1 points off Turnovers, #1 Fast Break Points, #1 Points in the Paint, #1 Steals per Game, #1 3pt FG's per game, #1 Field Goals Made! And only 4.5 games out of First Place

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » March 11, 2008, 3:31 pm

Menelaos wrote:The West ain't shit? And that's why the EIGHTH PLACE Warriors would be fucking #3 seeds in the East? Is that why the combined average record of the top eight teams in the west is a full 15ish games higher than the equivalent in the East?

I mean, there is team loyalty, and then there is just plain ignorance. The West is going to set all-time records this year in combined win percentage for their 8 playoff teams, and will have the team with the highest winning percentage ever not to make the playoffs.

There are two teams that are worth a damn in the East, and 9, maybe 10 teams in the West that are all jockeying for #1 seed. The spread between the 1st and 8th seeds is only 4.5 games. The East is a fucking joke, and the records of the Celtics and Pistons are highly inflated due to that fact. Manu and company don't stand a chance of making it out of the second round eh? And yet they are defending champions and The Team To Beat year in and year out. I hate the Spurs, but there is no denying they are The Best.

That said, Go Warriors! #1 Offense, #1 points off Turnovers, #1 Fast Break Points, #1 Points in the Paint, #1 Steals per Game, #1 3pt FG's per game, #1 Field Goals Made! And only 4.5 games out of First Place

Calm down. I'm not retarded or ignorant... The West is obviously the better conference, but no team there is outright better than the Celtics or Pistons. Also, several successful road trips to the West have basically proven that their records reflect their skill as a team. It will be a good postseason.

Menelaos · Post by **Menelaos** » March 11, 2008, 5:40 pm

Yea, Celtics record versus west teams was perfect up until they lost to I think the Nuggets, and then the Warriors the game after. And the Pistons have been the real deal for years.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 11, 2008, 6:37 pm

Menelaos wrote:Yea, Celtics record versus west teams was perfect up until they lost to I think the Nuggets, and then the Warriors the game after. And the Pistons have been the real deal for years.

Don't forget the Suns! They're undefeated vs the Celtics this year.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » March 11, 2008, 11:09 pm

How could we ever forget the Suns, or any team from Arizona, as long as you're posting?

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » March 14, 2008, 11:15 pm

Winnow, I was not aware you were on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h-juJD0 ... re=related

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 15, 2008, 12:09 am

Suns are playing to hurt people like the Spurs do now.

Shaq has elbowed at least one opponent in the face each game. The Suns got 4 Technicals last game against Golden State and won. That's how you play the game in the current NBA. Yell, scream, whine, play dirty.

Look for the Suns opponent injury list to grow. If you see the other team complaining about being held, etc...damn right they are. Just watch a tape of Bruce the cheat/dirty player Bowen. He cheats every possession. It's just a matter of the refs calling it. That's how you win with Sterns NBA. Keep cheating and playing dirty and the refs will eventually overlook it so the game doesn't go on too long.

Aardor · Post by **Aardor** » March 15, 2008, 12:36 am

Well, they did suspend him at least. That kick was not nearly as bad as the nut shot during the playoffs last year, so maybe they're going to actually start enforcing the rules on Bruce Bowen.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » March 15, 2008, 2:25 pm

noel wrote:Beat the Spurs then we'll talk.

If the Nuggets are a bar by which you rate yourselves, I pity you.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 15, 2008, 4:37 pm

Leonaerd wrote:
noel wrote:Beat the Spurs then we'll talk.

If the Nuggets are a bar by which you rate yourselves, I pity you.

Great job beating them... and no offense, but a beating the Spurs this month doesn't mean nearly as much as it did when I made that post.

The Spurs who seem to have grown old over night. Kinda surprising as close as we are to the playoffs. Now is usually the time when they clamp down.

The Lakers losing Gasol is horrifying. They couldn't get it done with an inneffective Bynum and no Gasol, so I have no hope that they'll be able to do it now with no Bynum and no Gasol. Grats Rockets 22 in a row.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 15, 2008, 6:45 pm

I Houston remains unbeaten until next Sunday, that's where their streak wll end against the Suns.

Suns are moving back up in the standings! Spurs down, Warriors, down, Sacramento up tonight. maybe they're recapture the top spot before the playoffsif Gasol is out for an extended time. West playoff race is still so tight.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 16, 2008, 4:08 am

I believe the Spurs losing tonight to the 76ers confirms that they're no longer the bar by which other NBA teams should be measured.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 16, 2008, 5:13 am

Suns have a 4 game win streak. They're tied with the Spurs and own the tiebreaker with them. Beat slow, cheating, dirty type team(Spurs) beat fast paced run and gun team (Warriors), blew the fuck out a shitty team (Sacremento), beat the Celtics.

All is well. Hop on the Solar Express!

noel · Post by **noel** » March 19, 2008, 1:14 am

I give the Pistons props for the win against Denver.

I feel like the Western conference has been beating the shit out of each other for quite a while now, and I think some of the Western teams are starting to tire out because of it.

Celtics did a fantastic defensive job on Houston tonight.

Lakers were lucky to get a win in Dallas tonight after giving up a big lead. Dallas though seems to have the ability to never finish.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 19, 2008, 1:34 am

Some no name center on Portland pissed Shaq off tonight and Shaq went off. He was a monster on defense tonight with some embarrassing blocks on a few Portland players.

That's five in a row for the Suns. Within one game of the top spot in the Western Conference!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 19, 2008, 1:33 pm

It's amazing how many teams still look like title contenders at this late point in the season.

I think that eight of the top nine teams in the West all have the potential to win a championship. Of those eight, the ones I feel least comfortable about are on the top and the bottom of that list: Denver and Houston.

I worry about Denver because of their lack of quality point guard play and their general inconsistency, but there is absolutely enough talent on that team to make a title run, if they even make the playoffs. They have a number of dangerous scorers who could turn a close loss into a win if they get hot-- Carmelo, Iverson, even J.R. Smith and Linas Kleiza. They can also win games by dominating the interior athletically, when both Camby and Martin are playing at their peak. The Nuggets would really need everything to come together to make a serious run, but it's not out of the question that it could happen.

Houston is almost the opposite-- they have the consistency, effort, and toughness down; what they don't have is the superlative talent. Do you really feel comfortable leaning on two rookies in the frontcourt? Do you think Tracy McGrady-- he who has yet to see the second round-- can actually be the leader of a title team? Isn't losing Yao Ming a little too important to recover from? I think that Houston's chances are slim, but Detroit already showed us what a team can win a title without superstars if they have well-distributed talent, depth, toughness, teamwork, and a diversity of skills. Houston has those attributes, and I don't think you can ever ignore a team which goes undefeated for over a QUARTER OF A SEASON.

The only playoff team who I don't think has a legitimate title shot is Dallas. Look at the big guys on the Mavs roster and tell me who they plan on using to control the paint. Erick Dampier is the starter at 5, while Dirk starts at the 4. Dampier is capable of having the occasional big game, and he's also (frequently) capable of putting up a complete dud and fouling out in 10 minutes. Dirk can't be counted on to do much of anything in the paint. Off the bench, the Mavs offer the intimidating duo of Malik Allen and Brandon Bass. When the Mavs are playing the Suns and Dampier picks up two fouls in the first few minutes, then what? You throw Brandon Bass on Shaq and Dirk on Amare and pray for the best? Yeah... good luck with that. Given all the West teams with dangerous frontcourt scorers (Phoenix, Utah, New Orleans, Lakers, San Antonio), I'd be worried. Beyond that, Dallas has a scoring issue-- when Dirk's shots are not falling, they have no go-to scorer. Josh Howard could be that guy, but he doesn't have experience taking over games offensively because Dirk has always been the man during his tenure. Jason Terry can get hot occasionally and carry you. Devin Harris can get hot and carry you-- but he plays for New Jersey now, and the man who replaced him may be the worst shooter under 6'9 in the NBA. Maybe the Mavs are thinking that Jason Kidd can keep the offense flowing when the shots aren't falling, but color me skeptical.

In the East, Detroit, Boston, and Cleveland all seem legit to me. Detroit and Boston are obvious picks as tough, veteran teams with talent on both sides of the ball (and the two best records in the NBA). Cleveland is mediocre solely because of LeBron. We know that LeBron can singlehandedly win a game against most any team. Pulling a mediocre Cleveland club all the way through the playoffs by himself would be a herculean task (especially because he'd probably have to beat Detroit, Boston, and the West champion back-to-back-to-back), but it's definitely not safe to put it past him.

I would put Orlando on this list if Dwight Howard had just a little bit more consistency in his offensive game. If he was able to consistently get 15+ good shots per night, I'd think that they could beat anyone.

By my count, that's 11 teams that still have a legit shot at a championship as we near the 70-game mark. That's more than a third of the league. Amazing.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 19, 2008, 1:59 pm

I agree, the playoffs in the West are going to be outstanding this year as is the championship game as the East has a couple teams worthy this year so it's not a gimmie for the West.

For those that haven't been watching Amare's improvement this year, this should open up some eyes:

Amare's name should be mentione with the rest of the MVP candidates although I think he should get most improved like he was shooting for at the beginning of the season. Amare's jumper is so pure now and he's a blocking machine.

It's fun to watch Shaq and Amare on defense now that Amare is the weak side help instead of the Center. Amare's not going to get on any NBA All Defensive teams but he's definitely improved that part of his game.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 19, 2008, 2:36 pm

Amare is definitely having a fantastic season and deserves recognition for his play and for having worked hard to improve.

The idea that he deserves the MVP is clearly ridiculous, given that he's the second-best player on (what is currently) the 5th best team in the West. Steve Nash's season is basically statistically identical to his two MVP campaigns. It's hard to believe that Amare has eclipsed Nash in performance, despite his improvement, given that Phoenix is having their worst regular season of their four-year run. Plus, awarding the MVP to a power forward who plays poor on-ball defense and has little to no back-to-the-basket game seems... silly.

I guess Kevin Garnett won an MVP with no substantial back-to-the-basket game, but he is/was a far more versatile player than Amare, and a vastly better defender.

I think it's tough to argue with the conventional wisdom that the contenders are LeBron James, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, and sort of Kevin Garnett. That is the order in which I'd rank them at the moment. Amare hangs out in the group right behind those guys, with players like Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Paul Pierce, Deron Williams, Allen Iverson, etc.

noel · Post by **noel** » March 19, 2008, 2:53 pm

I agree with virtually everything you said Sueven. Really good posts.

I agree about Houston and especially your opinions of Denver. The Western conference playoffs are going to be wars.

If I were handing out the MVP award, I'd give it in this order:

1. Chris Paul - Amazing stats, clearly a huge value to his team.
2. Kobe Bryant - Consistently league-leading stats, where are the Lakers without him. Clearly he couldn't do everything himself, but neither could Jordan, Lebron, Magic, etc.
3. Lebron James - I have him here, but honestly I'm honestly not sure he deserves to be here. I'd rather see him doing more. He has pieces around him now, so it's unclear why the Cavs haven't done better in the East. I think he'll do much better next year.
4. KG - Last night was a perfect example - Leadership, Defense, scoring, consistency, attitude. I love KG.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 19, 2008, 4:03 pm

I don't think Amare should be MVP. That should go to Chris Paul or the rapist. I posted the efficiency numbers because I still think some are under the impression that Amare is a one dimensional player. You can't be one dimensional and be #3 in efficiency.

His Strengths:

-best finisher in the game (body control and ability to put the ball in the hoop after being fouled is amazing)
-outstanding jump shot (.570+ FG % and he takes plenty of jump shots unlike Dwight Howard)
-pretty good free throw shooter (a positive, unlike some other big men)
-great shot blocker now that he's playing his natural position
-fast for a big man (can run the break and beat his man)

Weaknesses:

-foul trouble
-man to man defense (see foul trouble)

The Lakers have an easier schedule down the stretch but if New Orleans keeps winning against tougher competition these last 15 games, Chris Paul deserves the MVP over Kobe.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 19, 2008, 4:19 pm

noel wrote:I agree with virtually everything you said Sueven. Really good posts.

Thanks! I'm impressed that you could actually understand that first one. I just read it over for the first time-- maybe I should have proofread that one.

noel wrote:1. Chris Paul - Amazing stats, clearly a huge value to his team.
2. Kobe Bryant - Consistently league-leading stats, where are the Lakers without him. Clearly he couldn't do everything himself, but neither could Jordan, Lebron, Magic, etc.
3. Lebron James - I have him here, but honestly I'm honestly not sure he deserves to be here. I'd rather see him doing more. He has pieces around him now, so it's unclear why the Cavs haven't done better in the East. I think he'll do much better next year.
4. KG - Last night was a perfect example - Leadership, Defense, scoring, consistency, attitude. I love KG.

I'm with you on Chris Paul. He's the best true guard in the NBA, and is still underrated despite all the attention he's got this year. He's well on his way to passing Iverson and becoming the best little guy I've ever seen play (I started watching after Isaiah retired).

But let's argue a little bit about LeBron.

First, the concessions: He has work yet to do. His jumper is OK, but needs to get better. He needs to learn a post game so the Cavs can run the offense through him down low, instead of giving him the ball at the three-point line and letting him penetrate. His effort and intensity are improving, but are not yet at the same level as Kobe and Garnett and some other veterans.

Now, to defend him: I'm not sure why you think that he's got talent around him now.

His frontcourt, prior to the trade, was Big Z, who's a good player who can score, defend the rim, and block shots, but lacks mobility and bulk, Drew Gooden, who's about as inconsistent as NBA players get and looked like a potential victim of a LeBron homicide, and Anderson Varejao, who's a great hustle player, defender, and rebounder. I'd say that's a low-average frontcourt. Now, Gooden is gone, replaced by Joe Smith and Ben Wallace. Joe Smith gives you a reasonable 15-20 bench minutes, and Ben Wallace is almost entirely washed up. Big Z has been hurt more or less since the trade, so the Cavs have been running Varejao/Wallace (two redundant players who do the same things well, one of whom is over the hill) with Joe Smith coming off the bench. That's a bad frontcourt. Once Big Z gets back at it, it'll be an average frontcourt.

His backcourt, prior to the trade, was Larry Hughes (crap), Daniel Gibson (useful), Dwayne Jones (crap). That's not a very good backcourt. Now Hughes is gone, and in his place are Delonte West (useful) and Wally Szczerbiak (shooting .313 in Cleveland). That's improved, but still not very good.

If I was starting a franchise, the only non-Lebron Cavs I'd want on my team would be Gibson, West, Z, and Varejao. In my opinion, nobody else on that team ought to be getting minutes on a playoff club.

Kobe has far more talent around him, with Odom, Bynum (sometimes), Gasol (recently), Fisher, Farmar, Walton, Turiaf... I'd take all those guys on my team.

Look what happened to the Cavs when LeBron was out with an injury earlier this year.

Plus/minus stats bear out LeBron's value to his team. He's third in the NBA (behind Dwight Howard and Antawn Jamison) at +14.47. Kobe is 9th, at +12.07.

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.p ... order=DESC

Plus, LeBron's typical box-score stats are superior across the board, 30.9/8.1/7.5 to 28.2/6.1/5.3. LeBron shoots .485 to Kobe's .463. Kobe does outshoot LeBron from 3 and from the line.

I have more to say, but my class is about to end, which means I'm about to pack up and go. I will return to say more later.

Winnow, I will get to you later as well.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » March 19, 2008, 4:37 pm

I would give it to KG for 3 reasons.

1) His attitude infects everyone around him. Numbers alone do not account for what he brings to a team.

2) He has been the main force behind a team that at this moment has already won 30 more games than it did last year. THIRTY! Just loking at the schedule they should win no less than 65 games this year, even if they hit a bad stretch. This team last year was 8-22 against the West and this year so far is 22-4 with Dallas, Phoenix, and 2 against NO left. Anyone that can provide that kind of a spark to turn around a franchise that has been pretty bad for nearly 20 years deserves the MVP. They have not seen leadership like this on the Celtics since Bird retired.

3) I am a Celtics fan. Sue me.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 19, 2008, 5:38 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I would give it to KG for 3 reasons.

2) He has been the main force behind a team that at this moment has already won 30 more games than it did last year. THIRTY!

Boston tanked it extremely early last year so they could have a good chance at the #1 pick , which they didn't get. I give them no credit for winning thirty more games when they gave up so early last year and didn't try.

Phoenix 1 win
Boston 0 wins

head to head this year

edit:

A Celtics/Suns finals would be huge for TV ratings.

Shaq/Nash and Amare to a lesser extent along with Garnett and the "Boston Legacy"

Lakers/Suns Western Final would also be huge

noel · Post by **noel** » March 19, 2008, 5:54 pm

I didn't realize Ben Wallace was still sucking ass. I guess I always assumed that had more to do with him being in Chicago than him. That's a shame, he used to at least be a monster on defense.

Honestly I haven't seen a lot of Lebron's games this year. I recently lost a game where he lost, and I remember thinking that I wasn't really impressed with his play. I could be totally off. I still think to be an MVP, your team should have to do a little better than whatever the Cavs current record is. We could make a case for Chris Bosh if it's just the best player on a bad team (obviously an extreme example, but it's just for analogy's sake). I like Lebron though I occasionally think it seems like he doesn't focus enough on basketball when he hasn't actually done anything yet... (again, just pointing out that he has yet to win it all -- his numbers are obviously impressive).

I still hope it's Chris Paul that gets the MVP.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 19, 2008, 7:34 pm

lol this is the block last night I was referring to:

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 19, 2008, 7:58 pm

Winnow wrote:lol this is the block last night I was referring to:

lol, it reminds me of what some teammates would say when I blocked shots in school "In de face mon!" I tended to push the back down into the player just like that when I wasn't sending them several rows into the bleachers

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 19, 2008, 9:17 pm

Kilm wrote:I would give it to KG for 3 reasons.

Fair arguments, although I agree with Winnow that the +30 wins thing isn't quite as impressive as it sounds, given the Celtics embarrassing and blatant tanking last year, and given the contribution of Ray Allen. Thing is, I think the attitude and leadership points apply to Chris Paul and Kobe (which surprises me) just as much as they do to KG, and LeBron is close. Given the outlandish statistical seasons that the others are having, I think KG has to settle for bridesmaid this year, at least in my eyes.

Consider:

Player 1: 21.6 points, 3.9 rebounds, 11.3 assists, 2.7 steals, 2.5 turnovers, .494/.368/.865
Player 2: 18.6 points, 3.5 rebounds, 11.6 assists, 0.8 steals, 3.8 turnovers, .532/.455/.899

The first one is Chris Paul so far this year, the second is the best statistical season of the only modern point guard to win an MVP award (Steve Nash).

The point of this stat comparison is NOT to compare Paul and Nash (I'm looking at you, Winnow), but to point out the absurdity of the season that Chris Paul is having, especially when you consider that the league-leading steals total is symbolic of the completely badass defense that Paul plays. And he plays with intensity, he leads, he plays defense, and the Hornets turnaround is every bit as impressive as the Celtics.

Winnow wrote:A Celtics/Suns finals would be huge for TV ratings.

Shaq/Nash and Amare to a lesser extent along with Garnett and the "Boston Legacy"

Lakers/Suns Western Final would also be huge

That'd be a pretty good finals. It would be absolutely DWARFED by the magnitude of a Lakers/Celtics finals. That matchup is #1, everything else is clustered together as a distant second. And a Spurs/Pistons rematch is last.

noel wrote:I didn't realize Ben Wallace was still sucking ass. I guess I always assumed that had more to do with him being in Chicago than him. That's a shame, he used to at least be a monster on defense.

I think he's just old. I thought the same thing, that he'd be rejuvenated by going to Cleveland, but it doesn't seem like it happened. I went to the Wizards/Cavs game on the 13th, and he really just looked terrible. I hardly noticed him on the floor, and when I did, my thought process was usually "why are they double teaming LeBron at the three point line? isn't someone going to be wide open? oh... ben wallace." He did have a few vintage Big Ben moment, including one monster out-of-nowhere block, but he just doesn't seem like a guy you can count on anymore. He relied so much on effort and intensity and brute force that once his athleticism waned, he didn't have anything to fall back on. He's certainly doesn't have the ability to adapt his game around his finesse skills.

Looking up his stats, it looks like he's doing in Cleveland basically what he was doing in Chicago:

Chicago: 5.1 points, 8.8 rebounds, 1.6 blocks in 32 minutes
Cleveland: 5.4 points, 8.3 rebounds, 1.4 blocks in 28 minutes

noel wrote:Honestly I haven't seen a lot of Lebron's games this year. I recently lost a game where he lost, and I remember thinking that I wasn't really impressed with his play. I could be totally off. I still think to be an MVP, your team should have to do a little better than whatever the Cavs current record is. We could make a case for Chris Bosh if it's just the best player on a bad team (obviously an extreme example, but it's just for analogy's sake).

I wonder if you watched the game I was at. He didn't play all that well. He turned the ball over a lot and missed jump shots and layups. He still ended up putting up 25/7/7 or something like that, but that's LeBron. Toward the end of the game, DeShawn Stevenson (who had been going up against him all game) hit a big shot, and then did his thing where he waves his hand in front of his face and screams "I CAN'T FEEL MY FACE" at the defender. And then LeBron missed a potential game-winner three pointer. And then after the game, Stevenson called him overrated. So it definitely wasn't his best performance.

He was also really impressive in some ways, of course-- he had a few absurdly athletic plays, his passing ability was really more impressive than i expected, and he twice walked off ankle sprains without leaving the game and didn't let it affect him.

I think that in general this season he's been much improved over last year. He's become absolutely unstoppable off the dribble. Nobody in the league can prevent the man from getting into the lane one on one. And LeBron getting in the lane is bad. He's a great passer who can hit open teammates, and, of course, he's a great finisher who can dunk the ball or put in an acrobatic layup in a small window. His stats demonstrate how good he's gotten at this-- he's leading the league in points, and he's averaging a career high in assists.

I think he's also playing with more consistent energy, and getting better at defense. He still has room to improve and, while he's above average, he's not as good as any of the other three MVP candidates we're talking about in these areas. But he is getting better, and averaging 3 combined blocks/steals, which is a career high.

noel wrote:I like Lebron though I occasionally think it seems like he doesn't focus enough on basketball when he hasn't actually done anything yet... (again, just pointing out that he has yet to win it all -- his numbers are obviously impressive).

He hasn't won it all, that's true. Only Kobe has among the contenders. And his focus has improved but could still use some more improving. But I think he really has accomplished an awful lot of impressive things in a very short career. I think everyone expected him to put up numbers, but I'm legitimately impressed at what he's managed to do beyond that. The year before he arrived, the Cavs won 17 games. Since then: 35, 42, 50, 50, although they probably won't win 50 again this year. They didn't make the playoffs his second year (can you believe it? an eastern conference team with a winning record that didn't make the playoffs), but he won 1 round his first go-round, and 3 rounds the second time. So he's 4-2 all-time in playoff series, which is pretty good.

But beyond that, think about those playoff series. The first one was against the Wizards, a series that the Cavs won. I distinctly recall Lebron driving into the lane and making shots at the buzzer to either win or send the game into overtime on at least two occasions. One of those came after Gilbert Arenas was shooting two free throws, with only a few seconds left in the game, and a one point lead. LeBron tapped him on the side and said "if you miss these, you're gonna lose" or something to that effect. Gilbert missed them both, LeBron drove the length of the floor and hit the game winning shot.

Next year was last year, in which they had to get over the Pistons hump in order to make it to the finals. They did so. What happened?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1Px-jPm_TU

LeBron scored 25 straight points over a period starting into the 4th quarter and concluding at the end of double overtime, when the Cavs won.

He's had his moments in the regular season too, like the game this year in which Chris Bosh's girlfriend talked shit on him, he pointed at her at the beginning of the 4th quarter, trailing by double digits, and said "when we win this game, it's your fault," and then scored some ridiculous amount of points, won the game, pointed at her and yelled "it's your fault!" That was pretty sweet.

I mean, the guy is like 22, and he's already done all that.

And: His teams have mostly sucked.

Remember when Carlos Boozer fled? Imagine if they had actually signed him as had been planned. LeBron and Boozer is a championship nucleus. Instead, since Boozer got away, they got cap space. Which they eventually used to sign Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, and Donyell Marshall. Which is not good. The Cavs are terrible when LeBron doesn't play.

Maybe one argument against is that he has so much room to improve still. He still doesn't have a post game, consistent effort, max defense, or a top jump shot-- all things that will likely grow with time. He's somewhere around the best player in the league now, but if we declare him the best player now, what do we do in 4 years when he's substantially better?

noel wrote:I still hope it's Chris Paul that gets the MVP.

That'd be really cool.

Umm, clearly I like talking about the NBA...