Church and You

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » December 24, 2007, 7:45 pm

My girlfriend asked me the other day if I'd go to church with her. She didn't set a specific time, like, for Christmas or anything, just in general, would I ever go.

One of our first conversations was about religion, and she's pretty into going to Church, she finds comfort in it and is a firm believer, and I say good for her.

I, on the other hand, am pretty anti-religion. I don't want to start this debate here and now but just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm just going to say that my opinion / belief is that the world would be a far better place without *organized* religion. Religion is fine, believing in your deity of choice is fine, but I don't like the whole organized "this is how you should worship" part of it.

So anyhow, I told her it would be my preference to not go to church.

She made me feel pretty shitty for saying I would prefer not to go, saying that she'd do it for me if the roles were reversed. I kinda feel like I'm being a douche about the whole thing but I know if I went the entire time I'd be sitting there thinking.... negative things.

Am I a dick for sticking to my beliefs on this one? I mean, I don't even feel like I'd be welcome in a church with my mindset and I imagine I'd be pretty uncomfortable.

Anyone been in a similar situation? From either side of the debate?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 24, 2007, 8:07 pm

Personally, I think that if your views on this are that different, you would both be better off with someone a little more similar. It is not like one of you prefers Coke and the other prefers Pepsi

You're talking about a person's actual belief structure. You may still have plenty in common, but this is the core of a person which you do not agree with.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » December 24, 2007, 8:20 pm

Neziroth wrote:She made me feel pretty shitty for saying I would prefer not to go, saying that she'd do it for me if the roles were reversed. I kinda feel like I'm being a douche about the whole thing but I know if I went the entire time I'd be sitting there thinking.... negative things.

Am I a dick for sticking to my beliefs on this one? I mean, I don't even feel like I'd be welcome in a church with my mindset and I imagine I'd be pretty uncomfortable.

If the roles were reversed, would you even ask her to go to church with you, knowing that it would make her uncomfortable? I'm assuming you wouldn't.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 24, 2007, 8:26 pm

You should support her and attend church by her side atleast once.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 24, 2007, 10:11 pm

You should go to church with her, BUT then arrange something she should support you in, pick something funny like a 2 hour seminar on marxism or something

That work great on getting rid of hardcore Jehovas Withnesses btw, invite them in and propose a trade, they talk about Jehova for 30 min, you talk about marxism for 30 min

Nick · Post by **Nick** » December 24, 2007, 10:33 pm

Well it's pretty simple actually.

If you don't mind completely ignoring all rationality in favour of blind faith just to appease someone you put your dick into then you'll be a-ok.

Religion, despite it being christmas, is still fucking idiotic, as is anyone who actually believes that crap.

Tbh, you seem like an intelligent chap, so merry christmas. Don't be a pussy and go to church because some chick demands it. That would be moronic even beyond "belief".

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 24, 2007, 10:48 pm

Church is pretty boring. Bring a PSP or DS and you should make it through. See if she'll settle for watching an hour of programming on one of those religious channels. Bake her some cross shaped cookies (or those stars thingies) before asking to get on her good side (be sure to bake the right shape).

You'll probably end up catching a cold out of the experience as well.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » December 24, 2007, 10:51 pm

If she's throwing a guilt trip on you for not wanting to go to church with her, just end it now, because it will be a recurring theme!

Fash · Post by **Fash** » December 24, 2007, 10:54 pm

Suck it up, dude. It's not that bad! There's lot of hot chicks at church. Let her catch you looking a few times and I think you'll be off the hook.

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » December 24, 2007, 11:55 pm

Time to flush this turd.

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » December 25, 2007, 12:26 am

I'm betting she has visions of you coming around to her point of view and surrendering to the churchies.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » December 25, 2007, 1:07 am

I'm betting she has visions of you coming around to her point of view and surrendering to the churchies.

I flat out asked her if that's what she wanted and she said that it wasn't. She said that she'd love for my views to change, but it's not why she wanted me to go. She just wanted to share what is a big part of her life with me.

Personally, I think that if your views on this are that different, you would both be better off with someone a little more similar. It is not like one of you prefers Coke and the other prefers Pepsi You're talking about a person's actual belief structure. You may still have plenty in common, but this is the core of a person which you do not agree with.

I'd tend to look at a person's personality as their core, not their beliefs. I think we mesh well on almost every other subject except this one. If religion is the reason this relationship fails, then it's going to further strengthen my anti-religion beliefs, heh.

I was just curious if it was acceptable for 1.) her to make such a request and 2.) for me to say no.

Anyhow, Happy Christmas / Hanukkah / Holidays everybody.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 25, 2007, 1:30 am

Neziroth wrote:I was just curious if it was acceptable for 1.) her to make such a request and 2.) for me to say no.

Yes and yes. I've seen lots of relationships do very well in that situation. Assuming one of them doesn't have a massive anti-religion hard on like Nick, and that the other half isn't the same way in the opposite direction.

Gonzoie - Luclin · Post by **Gonzoie - Luclin** » December 25, 2007, 3:21 am

My ex did this to me as well.

I don't think its right to force a belief system onto someone else, but at the same time, going to church for 1 day in the future wont exactly kill you. I don't think you are wrong for saying no, and i don't think its wrong for her to ask. Guilt tripping you into doing it is wrong.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 25, 2007, 4:59 am

I say go, as long as she'll go to a strip club with you for an hour too ><

Fyndina · Post by **Fyndina** » December 25, 2007, 8:37 am

I think it is ok to ask you, once. If it is a big part of her life you are at least showing good faith in wanting to know more about what is a big part of her life. I managed to go with my first in laws to passover service (they are Jehovas Witnesses). Me going just once creaed an enormous amount of good will.....

Trek · Post by **Trek** » December 25, 2007, 8:40 am

Depending on how religous she is, this will become a problem at some point. If your just dating her to date then it will be fine. If it is a serious relationship then this will become a problem when children come into play. You can bet she would try to get you to go for the rest of your life or until you split up...

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » December 25, 2007, 8:46 am

You should state that threesomes are part of your belief structure and that you'll go to church with her every time she has a threesome with you and a chick of your choosing.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » December 26, 2007, 1:13 am

You should go to church with her.

She should hook up a threesome with one of her hot girlfriends.

Gotta give to receive, baby!

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » December 26, 2007, 3:06 am

I wouldn't say that asking someone to attend church with you is *forcing* a belief system on you. I think it is OK for her to ask - and it might even be OK for you to go - ONCE. Just so long as she realizes it'll make you pissy as hell (at least it does me), that afterward you'll probably start some debate on how stupid the experience was and how the attendees are a bunch of sheep (cause that's what I'd do), and that you probably won't ever be talked into going again (because if she even tries... might not be a keeper!).

Deward · Post by **Deward** » December 26, 2007, 1:54 pm

This sounds like a deal breaker to me. If she is trying to do this now then I can guarantee it will only get worse. Either outright refuse now or you'll be attending every fucking church christmas show for life. Women want to feel like they are doing something spiritual. For some reason organized religion does that for them. I would ask her to go to a Unitarian church. That was how my wife and I compromised. Unitarians aren't really religious but they do a lot of spiritual things that seem to satisfy a need without the whole fire and brimstone bullshit. We discuss important topics like the environment and social issues. Best part...services only last an hour.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » December 26, 2007, 2:18 pm

Deward wrote:I would ask her to go to a Unitarian church. That was how my wife and I compromised. Unitarians aren't really religious but they do a lot of spiritual things that seem to satisfy a need without the whole fire and brimstone bullshit. We discuss important topics like the environment and social issues. Best part...services only last an hour.

My wife have attended Unitarian services a few years during Christmas. She's not religious, but her family is. Going to church on the holidays reminds her of her family back East, and anything I can do to take her mind off the fact that we're 2,000 miles away I'll gladly do. In addition to the short service, there is no taking of communion and none of the rehearsed (Hail Mary, etc.) prayers and group Amens that tend to make me think of typical organized religious services. I have never ben baptised and am against most organized religion as well.

I'd agree there needs to be some comprimise to the arrangement. If she's dragging you to her church, chances are you're going to feel alienated. At the very least, suggest going to a church that is unfamiliar to both of you... or a threesome.

laneela · Post by **laneela** » December 26, 2007, 2:29 pm

In my opinion, she should feel free to invite you as many times as she feels like it and you should feel free to gratefully decline every single time the thought of going to church makes you cringe. I understand completely that she wants to share something that is special to her with you. The asking isn't unreasonable in my opinion; the negative reaction to your response is, however.

Also, I don't believe that a difference in religious beliefs (or disbeliefs) are deal-breakers. As long as you have similar sets of morals and values, the basis for them shouldn't be an issue.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 26, 2007, 2:54 pm

Anytime you have to fake something in a relationship, it's a step in the wrong direction. Your squeeze, knowing that you're going to be miserable at church, yet still wanting you to go, is a bad thing. Going once isn't that bad, but make it clear that you don't enjoy it, and that you're doing it specifically for her so she knows that you at least will try it out once. Don't throw a tantrum during the experience. Fake the smiles, etc but after it's over, tell her point blank that you did not enjoy the experience and don't wish to go again. Do it in a nice way. Something like, "Sugar tits. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to experience this with you. I now have a better appreciation of your beliefs and religious rituals. However, having experienced it, I find that it's something I would never like to participate in again."

Just be diplomatic about it. If that doesn't work, dump her as she's already got a major strike against her for believing in that crap. It's not the end of the world though unless she pushes it on you.

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » December 26, 2007, 4:07 pm

I think if is ok for her to ask. I think it is ok for you to say no. However, I also think that she is just trying to share a part of her life with you. If you went and then told her you didn't enjoy it and did not want to go back and then she still pushed I see that as a deal breaker. However, if she respects your opinion and thanks you for giving it a chance then perhaps she is just showing that she is willing to respect your opinions and beliefs as long as you give hers a chance. You should expect the same from her.

Being a part of someone's life and getting to know them means trying new things, compromising on some things and not on others. Refusing to 'try' going to chruch (or a basketball game or whatever else she likes that you don't) is just as disrespectful (imo) as her trying to push you in to liking something that you have expressed a dislike for.

In short: I think you should go. And, when you tell her you didn't enjoy it she should never bring it up again.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 26, 2007, 4:11 pm

IF you don't enjoy it. If you go into the experience with an open mind, you might be surprised. Not every church is as "harsh" as people seem to think they are.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » December 26, 2007, 5:57 pm

Her reaction to my declining the invitation may not have been intended to be a guilt trip, it was along the lines of what a lot of you are saying about how she wanted to share a big part of her life with me.

I feel bad for saying no, honestly. Most of that is my own doing I think. I've been to church services -- Funerals, Weddings, and a bible study school when I was younger.

The bible study school was all "be good or go to hell" talk and that turned me off to it in a big way. It's not the reason I don't go -- it's the reason I really started thinking about religion in the first place. I discovered when I was maybe 16 or 17 that I was believing in God and religion and all that because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't. So from there I thought about it more, and found that I didn't truley believe. And that was that.

I have this idea in my head that I can't get rid of -- it's that all of those super religions folks are only that way because they're afraid of what happens if they're not. I know it's not true for all of them, but I wonder about every one of them that I deal with.

Don't take offense to that, I understand that a lot of people find a feeling of comfort in it, or a feeling of self completion (if that's a word) but it's not something I feel I need in my life.

So if I found myself sitting in church (She's protestant, whatever that means?) doing whatever, praying, listening to hymns, or any of that, I'm just going to be wondering the whole time... why are these people here and why are they all following this God?

Not to mention, like I said before, I personally think the world would be a much safer, more accepting place without organized religions telling people what to believe, who to accept and who's right and who's wrong.

...I should just print this out and hand it to her because I can't figure out how to explain to her my position other than "No thanks, I wouldn't be comfortable because church and religion isn't for me" -- because that's not doing the trick. It sucks because I'd say we're pretty serious and this has just recently come up.

Edit: The thing that really *really* aggravates me is that part of her argument is that I should step outside my comfort zone and that she's do it for me if the roles were reversed. She says how she went to Temple (I think it's called that) with a jewish boyfriend of hers, even though shes not jewish, but I argue that that's completely different.

Great advice though so far, it's definitely helping me see it from her point of view.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 26, 2007, 6:01 pm

While there could be "worse," a Protestant church is not a place I could see myself having at least a pleasant experience.

Spankes · Post by **Spankes** » December 26, 2007, 6:12 pm

Neziroth wrote:She says how she went to Temple (I think it's called that) with a jewish boyfriend of hers, even though shes not jewish, but I argue that that's completely different.

And I would argue that a Christian going to a Jewish service or vice versa makes them step out of a comfort zone more than someone who just dislikes organized religion in general going to a service of any kind. In the case of a Christian and Jew going to each others services they sit there listening to a whole set of beliefs that they have been taught to disagree with.

As a disclaimer, I am a Catholic...technically. While I believe in God, I consider myself more spiritual in my own way than religious. I don't go to church unless it is a wedding or funeral. So, my opinion is based on the point of view of making a relationship work, not converting someone to love religion of any kind.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » December 26, 2007, 6:16 pm

Dude... go. Go, it's not that bad... an hour of your life wasted, big deal. She will appreciate your company, and that's probably worth it.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 26, 2007, 6:43 pm

Why not have her read the responses here so she can get a feel for what a group of diverse individuals think on the subject? (or print out just this thread if you don't want her to see all of your other self help posts)

Fash · Post by **Fash** » December 26, 2007, 7:41 pm

I'm telling you to go, and I was also made to go for many years... I didn't like or enjoy it one bit and I skipped it when possible, but I still don't think it was a bad thing. I know that personally it forced me to use the time to tackle any and all questions in my head and become more confident in my own personal understanding of things. I was probably 12 at the time, so it's a little different as you're already solid in your beliefs. You can still find something to think about to make the time productive.

I'm strongly atheist, but I have no complaints about my catholic upbringing. That's the double-edged sword in my head. I'm proud of who I am and I argue against organized religion, yet I was brought up in it... I miss my catholic high school, the small class sizes, the short skirts, and the amusing (to me) religious faculty. I always wonder what I will decide when & if there are kids in the equation...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 26, 2007, 8:21 pm

Fash wrote:I miss my catholic high school, the small class sizes, the short skirts, and the amusing (to me) religious faculty. I always wonder what I will decide when & if there are kids in the equation...

You don't need a catholic school for small class sizes and short skirts. The difference is that the faculty at my school all graduated from Ivy League schools, drank beer and smoked pot with the students. I'll take that over religious faculty. Our humanities professor did an excellent job of providing us with a general overview of all religions and philosophies as it should be and not the one sided story you're most likely to receive at a religious private school.

My problem with religious private schools is that the humanities portion of your education is warped when it's the most important time to introduce as many views as possible and then let the young adult, that can finally think for themselves, decide with no bias.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » December 26, 2007, 10:59 pm

Sit in the back and have her give you a hand job. Barring that, take a bucket of Colonel in with you.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » December 27, 2007, 6:14 pm

If it is a decent Church, the sermon usually won't be half bad. You don't have to be into religion to get something out of the experience. Hopefully she is not southern baptist though.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » December 28, 2007, 3:20 am

Just like you respect her belief system, she should respect yours. I think its wrong of her to make you feel bad for not going to church with her. There are plenty of successful relationships with people of different faiths. The key though is that BOTH parties respect that they have a different belief system than their partner. She's not respecting your beliefs by expecting you to go.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » December 28, 2007, 12:10 pm

I think you should try it at least once - if only for the fact that you are showing an interest in something very important to your lady.

The roles are reversed for me and my wife. I attend Quaker meeting on Sunday morning. We have an hour long discussion around the fireplace while we drink coffee, tea and eat cookies and muffins - the conversation is generally about politics, religion, faith, science...

Then we sit in a circle and sit in silence for an hour. The Quakers, who are very open-minded Christians, believe that by sitting in silence and quiet stillness you are more open to hearing God. Every now and then someone will stand up and share a thought or something that came to them during this hour of contemplative meditative prayer...and we reflect upon what they have shared with us.

It is a very peaceful Sunday morning - there is no preaching - you can bring your Bible, Torah, Koran or anything else you wish - nearly everyone wears jeans - or shorts in the summer.

My wife is very anti-religion - and I have asked her to come with me...just once...so she can see and experience something that is very meaningful and important to me. I have described it to her as I have here - yet she refuses to come because she "hates church" - even though she never went to church except for funerals and weddings. I ask her once every three or so months - I never push the issue - she always says "no".

Trust me, I think it would go a long way to strengthening your relationship if you put aside your disdain for organized religion and went just one time....do it for her...do it for your relationship...this is the season of giving.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 28, 2007, 1:39 pm

Moonwynd wrote: Then we sit in a circle and sit in silence for an hour. The Quakers, who are very open-minded Christians, believe that by sitting in silence and quiet stillness you are more open to hearing God. Every now and then someone will stand up and share a thought or something that came to them during this hour of contemplative meditative prayer...and we reflect upon what they have shared with us.

Besides my immediate warped visions from the movie Kingpin regarding Quakers, if I had to sit in a circle in silence for 60 minutes, someone would have to wake me up at the end of it.

I don't mean to make fun of this though. There's something about getting away from everything for a short period of time to clear your mind that's worthwhile. With all the distractions today, it's much harder to find that "silent" time than in the past.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » December 28, 2007, 2:36 pm

Moonwynd wrote: Trust me, I think it would go a long way to strengthening your relationship if you put aside your disdain for organized religion and went just one time....do it for her...do it for your relationship...this is the season of giving.

I agree with you except that I think in his situation she's being too demanding and it will only make her expect him to go more. If she drops the issue and things are still running smoothly in their relationship, it would be a nice surprise to go with her once in the future. But I wouldn't fault him for never going. If he's uncomfortable there, she should put his feelings above her need to having him sitting there with her.

Its like chick flick movies. I hate when women insist their men watch movies they know they don't like just because they have some silly need to have their men involved in EVERYTHING in their lives, despite how it makes them feel. It's inconsiderate.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 28, 2007, 2:39 pm

How do you know how demanding she has been? She might have just asked him once and pouted a little as she tried to understand why he wouldn't go, or maybe she withheld sex until he would go. This could be seen as "making him feel pretty shitty," but it wouldn't be her being demanding.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » December 28, 2007, 3:14 pm

If it's just once, or even just on special holidays (easter, christmas, etc.) I would just go. Your soul isn't going to be sucked out and you won't be brainwashed. It's fairly easy to sit through, and there's enough silliness going on to keep you occupied. If you get particularly bored, read Deuteronomy and try not to laugh out loud.

If she's wanting you to go every week, I'd say just find a new girl.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » December 28, 2007, 5:57 pm

Got bored of reading (in a rush) but i wanted to toss in my two cents...

My cheap slut ex wife was 'religious' and I am not... athiest, maybe not... more agnostic. Anyways, yes she asked the same damn thing, I of course said "sure honey" but never actually did it. It was NEVER an issue in our marriage, sometimes it might come up in a fight but more as ammo when someone was loosin...

It all ended due to video games, not religion

Lynxe · Post by **Lynxe** » December 28, 2007, 10:55 pm

I was just curious if it was acceptable for 1.) her to make such a request and 2.) for me to say no.

Yes and Yes but placing you in a position to feel guilty about saying no sends off a whole new message. The only reason to guilt anyone into attending a service is to get a ride there and back or hope they'll come around to going with you. I grew up in a female, Roman Catholic school with uniforms and all (stop drooling guys), trust me on this. Even if she doesn't realize it yet - she got hope.

You two need to a have a chat about your relationship, your future, religion and see if you are a fit for each other at all.

Taly · Post by **Taly** » December 28, 2007, 11:19 pm

I think that was pretty crappy of her to make you feel guilty. It is fine to ask but not to push it on you.

No one should be forced to go to church or forced into a belief.

My husband is Catholic and I am Babtist. I would ask him to go to mine if he wanted to but if he said no then ohwell.

I have gone to his church many times and was fine with it but I wouldn't change and he is ok with it.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » December 29, 2007, 3:06 pm

Taly wrote:I am Babtist

Is that the church of Streisand or something?

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » December 29, 2007, 4:36 pm

Maybe she just wants you to SAY you would go, like my ex. Mine never really told me "Ok lets go today" so I think she was just fishing for whether or not I WOULD go... Women need those little "I'd do anything for you honey" moments, maybe thats all she wants...

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » December 29, 2007, 4:57 pm

Noysyrump wrote:It all ended due to video games, not religion

Mage h8....

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 29, 2007, 8:32 pm

Lalanae wrote: Its like chick flick movies. I hate when women insist their men watch movies they know they don't like just because they have some silly need to have their men involved in EVERYTHING in their lives, despite how it makes them feel. It's inconsiderate.

Lala

Though... I still think there are bad chick flicks and good ones, it just seems because there's fewer of them you're forced to watch all the awful ones to make up numbers

So anyway, what did you do:

a) Surrender your rights to your beliefs and your testicals and go to church
b) Rationally explain to your g/f why you aren't going and hence keep your convenient happy time with the god botherer.
c) Say no and get dumped like the heathen scum you are.

=)

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » December 30, 2007, 1:26 pm

So anyway, what did you do:

a) Surrender your rights to your beliefs and your testicals and go to church
b) Rationally explain to your g/f why you aren't going and hence keep your convenient happy time with the god botherer.
c) Say no and get dumped like the heathen scum you are.

It wasn't me agreeing to go any any particular day, it was "would you ever..." like way in the future (or maybe tomorrow what do I know?)

Anyhow, I went for a medium between B and C, because she brought it up a second time.

It came up when we were going to sleep, she asked me why I wouldn't go, and I explained it to her very rationally pretty much the same way I did in my post a few days ago here. She listened the whole time, she listened to how I've been to church in the past for more than just a wedding or a funeral (bible school horray) and I was really impressed with her patience while I talked.

Then she said "But you've never gone with me..." and she went on how she wanted to share that part of her life with me. I told her that I strongly preferred not to go, and after a little back and forth, she rolled over away from me and said that she'd just hide that part of her life from me because that's what I wanted, and went to sleep to the sound of me saying she didn't have to hide it from me and I fully supported her going to church (even though I've never even seen her go) and that I just couldn't bring myself to participate in it. ***

So... ugh. I'm heathen scum.

*** -- I was editing to fix this amazing run-on sentence, but I want everybody to see it and all of it's glory. May it brighten your day and strengthen your lungs.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 30, 2007, 10:20 pm

Wow, what a manipulative little minx.. but that's just par for the course anyway.

However, the "fine!" and rollover is a win. You might not realise it at the time; just don't ever bring it up again, like it was never there.