CNN reports on captured Terrorists..

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » January 3, 2003, 1:19 am

Well maybe we could all join hands and sing kum bai yah? That would make everything all better. Because you know there are a large number of politicians and foreign diplomats that regularly lurk these boards looking for ideas.

(actually just wanted this to make the next page)

Drewno · Post by **Drewno** » January 3, 2003, 3:54 am

our Naval Fleet that had no involvement in their war aside from supplying food/water/provisions/ammunition to the Western Front

Doesn't this sound just a *bit* like what we're doing in the middle east with Israel?

US supports the *allies* in WW2....
*US gets bombed
*US enters into war against an *evil* alliance
US supports the Israelis(sp?) in the middle east
*9-11
*US enters into a war against an *evil* alliance

So far that evil alliance that I can remember is: Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Libya. Those countries were named as an "Axis of evil" by Dubyah himself.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 3, 2003, 11:36 am

kyoukan type-R wrote:Go be world's policemen in a country without any fucking oil to exploit for a change then. You must think I am stupid trying to feed me some line about how altruistic you are being saving the world from an evil madman.

The short list :
1950-1953 Korean war
1958 Lebanon - U.S. helps Lebanese government against rebels

1960's-1972 Vietnam (you may have heard about it in some liberal instruction manual. Fucking loaded with oil they were.)

1965 U.S. helps Dominican Republic stop a rebellion (so much oil theere that I am unsure how we let it go to waste)

1975 Mayaguez - one day hostage rescue in Cambodia

1980 Iran - one day hostage rescue

1982 Lebanon - U.S. helps Lebanese government with wackos from guerillas from Lebanon and Syrian military

1983 Grenada

1989 Panama

1991 Iraq (your weak little mind will relate this purely to oil)

1992 Somalia

1994 Haiti

1999 Kosovo

We sure racked up a lot of oil in those conflicts! Of course, your mind has been numbed by your liberal brainwashing and will somehow find underlying reasons to point every one of those conflicts we helped in to be some huge benefit to the U.S. directly. Why don't you hop your ass on google and find out exactly how many times Canada has helped with any similar conflicts and see how many of theirs relate directly to oil? I sure as fuck don't recall Canada in Vietnam or Somalia. The only one I can think of was them sending plane washers or some shit to Iraq....maybe the real oil whores are north of the border.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 3, 2003, 11:40 am

Uh-oh, you've done it now.......

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 3, 2003, 11:54 am

The U.N. is ineffective because the U.S.......

Oh for Christs sake.

Xyun, when you graduate, do yourself a favor and take some classes on recent world history and global politics. Either you don't have a clue what you are talking about or you are so entrenched in your bias you cannot form a logical conclusion.

The U.N . is ineffective because it is far too large a body of people with far too many interests.

As for the bully analogy, you did such a wonderful job of missing the point I'm gonna give you a gold star. Let me try and go a little slower for you.

If you take actions to avoid upsetting people rather than because they are the right ones, you end up with your teenage ass bent over and raped by every spittle-flinging maniac who comes along.

Get it?

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 3, 2003, 12:18 pm

wow good list.

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » January 3, 2003, 12:55 pm

People keep asking why its ok for the US to have nuclear arms while not allowing anyone else to have them, and waa how unfair that is.

Since the 60's there have been numerous nuclear disarmament and non proliferation treaties signed and broken or extended.
Also originally the only people with nukes were the US and USSR, who both agreed to disarm at an equal pace, then behind everyones back nukes got sold, stolen, traded, and tested.
Most countries agreed to disarm, with some, namely the US getting extensions and from what I understand at this time only Cuba, India, Israel, and Pakistan are not included in the NPT.
Now some are mad the US wont press Israel to disarm, and they are screaming hypocrisy. And there is a bit of hypocrisy there.
But um hey, if it's not unilateral, I dont really want to be first to get rid of mine...
The US is a super power and posessing a stable govt and isnt likely to get overthrown and blow anybody up at random either.
And as for torture, its wrong. It's always been wrong, it will always be wrong. Wrong Wrong Wrong.

Edit:spelling 2, rhyae 0

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 1:04 pm

I sure as fuck don't recall Canada in Vietnam or Somalia. The only one I can think of was them sending plane washers or some shit to Iraq....

You're an ignorant asshead.

At least the Canadian forces in Afghanistan weren't hopped up on drugs and killing Americans. Our snipers weren't 'rolling in self defence' and putting bullets in the heads of friendlies.

Kilmoll, you'd probably be best served keep your cockhole shut about Canada...

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 3, 2003, 1:18 pm

Good response Miir. Maybe you would care to back up your statements with facts? Or are baseless, ignorant, profane attacks something Canada teaches in public schools as a debate method? Seems to be some common crap eminating from the great white north.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » January 3, 2003, 1:37 pm

This is somewhat appropriate for this thread I think.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 3, 2003, 1:53 pm

Unless the select whining Canadians on this thread are living like Puritans and tooling around in covered wagons then they're sponging off the United States for technology just like we're using the rest of the world for resources etc. STFU with your high an mighty U.S. bitching when you partake in our high standards of living.

I don't want to see 100 posts about how you improved chainsaw technology or ski mobiles. You know what I mean.

kyoukan is exempt from this as she actually does live in an igloo and tools around pulled by a team of huskies.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 3, 2003, 1:56 pm

Yet another destructive media device to help keep the people divided.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 3, 2003, 1:59 pm

Winnow wrote:Unless the select whining Canadians on this thread are living like Puritans and tooling around in covered wagons then they're sponging off the United States for technology just like we're using the rest of the world for resources etc. STFU with your high an mighty U.S. bitching when you partake in our high standards of living.

I don't want to see 100 posts about how you improved chainsaw technology or ski mobiles. You know what I mean.

kyoukan is exempt from this as she actually does live in an igloo and tools around pulled by a team of huskies.

Haha sweet.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 2:05 pm

Good response Miir. Maybe you would care to back up your statements with facts?

Sure

BAGRAM, Afghanistan (CP) - Canada's snipers have ducked mortars and dodged bullets in eastern Afghanistan in the last two weeks. They were nearly shot to pieces by a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship - it stopped firing just in the nick of time.

They are said to have the highest number of confirmed kills of any regular army unit in the battle, though they deny it. And three of them, along with three U.S. special forces soldiers, also rescued a company of the American 101st Airborne Division that was pinned down by enemy fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda - the mission to find and destroy al-Qaida and Taliban forces in the rugged region south of Gardez.

The U.S. government has recommended five Canadian snipers be awarded bronze stars for courage and battlefield performance.

The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.

"They were instrumental in helping us achieve our goals out there," said 1st Lieut. Justin Overbaugh, 25, of Missoula, Mont., the soldier who recommended Bill and James for Bronze Stars.

The U.S. Air Force has charged two F-16 pilots with manslaughter and assault in connection with an April "friendly fire" incident in Afghanistan that killed four Canadian soldiers and wounded eight, the Pentagon announced Friday.

Maj. Harry Schmidt and Maj. William Umbach of the Illinois Air National Guard both face four counts of manslaughter, eight counts of aggravated assault, and one count of dereliction of duty, after Schmidt launched a 500-pound laser-guided bomb on Canadian troops in Kandahar on April 17. The charges are the first criminal accusations filed against pilots stemming from the Afghan conflict.

Schmidt was also charged with failing to exercise appropriate flight discipline and not complying with the U.S. military's rules for firing weapons in Afghanistan.

Umbach, the flight commander, was charged with negligently failing to exercise appropriate flight command and control and ensuring compliance with the rules for firing on a target.

-----

The investigation report, commissioned by President Bush and Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien and released in June, said Umbach received permission from a nearby U.S. airborne warning and control system radar plane to determine the precise location of what he thought was hostile surface-to-air fire.

At the same time, Schmidt requested permission to fire on the location. Investigators said that although U.S. air controllers told Schmidt to hold his fire, the pilot provided the coordinates and radioed that he was "rolling in self-defense."

03 January 2003

Two American fighter pilots, charged with manslaughter over a "friendly fire" incident in which four Canadian soldiers died, were routinely forced by the US Air Force to take amphetamines that might have impaired their judgement, their lawyers said yesterday.

Majors Harry Schmidt and William Umbach, of the Illinois Air National Guard, face possible court martial for dropping a laser-guided bomb near Kandahar in Afghanistan last April. The F-16 pilots said they mistook a group of Canadian soldiers on an exercise as the enemy. In addition to the four soldiers who were killed, eight others were injured.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 3, 2003, 2:12 pm

BAGRAM, Afghanistan (CP) - Canada's snipers have ducked mortars and dodged bullets in eastern Afghanistan in the last two weeks. They were nearly shot to pieces by a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship - it stopped firing just in the nick of time.

What piece of crap outfit puts out this nonsense in such an un-professional manner?

Shot to pieces?

haha

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 2:12 pm

they're sponging off the United States for technology just like we're using the rest of the world for resources etc. STFU with your high an mighty U.S. bitching when you partake in our high standards of living.

http://www.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/wonrank.doc

Standards of living:

Canada - 7
USA - 27

Is there room in your big mouth for both feet?

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 2:14 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
BAGRAM, Afghanistan (CP) - Canada's snipers have ducked mortars and dodged bullets in eastern Afghanistan in the last two weeks. They were nearly shot to pieces by a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship - it stopped firing just in the nick of time.

What piece of crap outfit puts out this nonsense in such an un-professional manner?

Shot to pieces?

haha

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/020318/6/l1w2.html

Yahoo... I suppose they are a pretty 'crap outfit'

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 3, 2003, 2:14 pm

my understanding of the F-16 friendly fire incident is there are some extenuating factors to consider.

1. it is the defense attorney who says the pilots were forced to take the stimulant, which i think is part of his defense strategy, not necessarily part of the truth. US pilots have routinely taken stimulants voluntarily on combat missions for decades.

2. It is atypical to hold live fire excersizes beneath sites where combat air missions are actively underway.

I think it is more likely that an error in judgement or communication is most likely the case here, and that the drugs had little to do with it. The US military may very well be using these pilots as scapegoats since there may have been a communication error farther up the chain of command. Or quite simply they could have been negligent in comparing their flight plan to some sort of known excersise location information.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 2:17 pm

2. It is atypical to hold live fire excersizes beneath sites where combat air missions are actively underway.

Is it typical for a US pilot to disobey direct orders and open fire on a non confirmed target?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 3, 2003, 2:23 pm

i havent heard anything about orders that were disobeyed directly, but that is what i meant, by errors in judgement or communication.

my point is not that there are no US guys culpable here. my point is that it is unlikely that the stimulants they had taken had anything to do with it.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 2:32 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/Dai ... 21220.html

Here's another good snip for Kilmoll.. re: "I sure as fuck don't recall Canada in Vietnam"

But while Canada as a nation was not involved, Canadians themselves formed the largest foreign contingent in the U.S. military during the Vietnam era. Some estimate that their numbers far surpassed the more than 30,000 Americans draft dodgers who fled to Canada to avoid military service during the war. While exact numbers are impossible to obtain, from my work as a military historian with the Canadian War Museum, I estimate that of the many thousands who served in the U.S. Vietnam-era military, some 12,00 Canadians actually served in Vietnam itself.

----

About 80 Canadians were killed in the Vietnam conflict. Most were young members of the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 2:37 pm

The Canadian military also served in Somalia, Haiti and Bosnia.

I suppose I could take the time and find some figures and facts but I think I've shown that your head is planted firmly up your ass when it comes to your knowledge of things Canadian.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 3, 2003, 2:49 pm

miir wrote:
BAGRAM, Afghanistan (CP) - Canada's snipers have ducked mortars and dodged bullets in eastern Afghanistan in the last two weeks. They were nearly shot to pieces by a U.S. Apache helicopter gunship - it stopped firing just in the nick of time.

They are said to have the highest number of confirmed kills of any regular army unit in the battle, though they deny it. And three of them, along with three U.S. special forces soldiers, also rescued a company of the American 101st Airborne Division that was pinned down by enemy fire on the first day of Operation Anaconda - the mission to find and destroy al-Qaida and Taliban forces in the rugged region south of Gardez.

Lets look at this a moment. They have ducked mortars and dodged bullets fired by WHO? I don't think we can miraculously stop Al Queida from firing at them just because they are Canadian. A U.S. helicopter stopped firing at them in the nick of time? Were these Candian forces in a location they were supposed to be in? Does your little article know if they were? Of course not. It is because reporters are imbeciles who have zero clue as to what combat actually is. The highest number of kills among reglar army units? Good possibility of that. Of course most of the "regular army units" the U.S. sent over would be engineers and back lines base dwellers. The Rangers, Recon, SEALS, Delta Force, etc would be doing most of the ass kickings.

miir wrote:
The U.S. government has recommended five Canadian snipers be awarded bronze stars for courage and battlefield performance.

Wow! Congratulations.

miir wrote:
The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam.

"They were instrumental in helping us achieve our goals out there," said 1st Lieut. Justin Overbaugh, 25, of Missoula, Mont., the soldier who recommended Bill and James for Bronze Stars.

Still trying to figure out how this all means Candians helped out in any part of the world that was not an "oil issue". I am really glad Canada sent their 100 soldiers as a token.

miir wrote:
The U.S. Air Force has charged two F-16 pilots with manslaughter and assault in connection with an April "friendly fire" incident in Afghanistan that killed four Canadian soldiers and wounded eight, the Pentagon announced Friday.

Maj. Harry Schmidt and Maj. William Umbach of the Illinois Air National Guard both face four counts of manslaughter, eight counts of aggravated assault, and one count of dereliction of duty, after Schmidt launched a 500-pound laser-guided bomb on Canadian troops in Kandahar on April 17. The charges are the first criminal accusations filed against pilots stemming from the Afghan conflict.

Schmidt was also charged with failing to exercise appropriate flight discipline and not complying with the U.S. military's rules for firing weapons in Afghanistan.

Umbach, the flight commander, was charged with negligently failing to exercise appropriate flight command and control and ensuring compliance with the rules for firing on a target.

-----

The investigation report, commissioned by President Bush and Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien and released in June, said Umbach received permission from a nearby U.S. airborne warning and control system radar plane to determine the precise location of what he thought was hostile surface-to-air fire.

At the same time, Schmidt requested permission to fire on the location. Investigators said that although U.S. air controllers told Schmidt to hold his fire, the pilot provided the coordinates and radioed that he was "rolling in self-defense."

03 January 2003

Two American fighter pilots, charged with manslaughter over a "friendly fire" incident in which four Canadian soldiers died, were routinely forced by the US Air Force to take amphetamines that might have impaired their judgement, their lawyers said yesterday.

Majors Harry Schmidt and William Umbach, of the Illinois Air National Guard, face possible court martial for dropping a laser-guided bomb near Kandahar in Afghanistan last April. The F-16 pilots said they mistook a group of Canadian soldiers on an exercise as the enemy. In addition to the four soldiers who were killed, eight others were injured.

Of course, they could have read this board and found out how Canadians think and figured it might be good to take a few of you morons out. The more realistic option is that communication was blown somewhere along the lines between the multi-national force there. What kind of morons stages a live exercise in a combat zone anyway? If the pilot was "rolling in self defense", that would mean that he thought incoming fire was directed at his plane.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 3, 2003, 2:57 pm

miir wrote:
they're sponging off the United States for technology just like we're using the rest of the world for resources etc. STFU with your high an mighty U.S. bitching when you partake in our high standards of living.
http://www.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/wonrank.doc

Standards of living:

Canada - 7
USA - 27

Is there room in your big mouth for both feet?

Human Wellbeing Index?? Well that explains everything! The case cracker!

As for some more info that's just as useful to this discussion, I refer you to this chart:

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 3, 2003, 2:59 pm

miir wrote:http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/Dai ... 21220.html

Here's another good snip for Kilmoll.. re: "I sure as fuck don't recall Canada in Vietnam"

But while Canada as a nation was not involved, Canadians themselves formed the largest foreign contingent in the U.S. military during the Vietnam era. Some estimate that their numbers far surpassed the more than 30,000 Americans draft dodgers who fled to Canada to avoid military service during the war. While exact numbers are impossible to obtain, from my work as a military historian with the Canadian War Museum, I estimate that of the many thousands who served in the U.S. Vietnam-era military, some 12,00 Canadians actually served in Vietnam itself.

----

About 80 Canadians were killed in the Vietnam conflict. Most were young members of the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps.

This is about as ignorant as I could ever have imagined possible. By this standard, we could also say that Japan, China, Germany, France, etc. all were involved in the Vietnam war. Just because 30,000 people moved out of logging country to be in an industrial nation and served their new country in a war does NOT mean that their previous country was involved.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 3:05 pm

. They have ducked mortars and dodged bullets fired by WHO?

Afghans.
The incident mentioned in that article was in reference to the steath of the Canadian Sniper units.

Still trying to figure out how this all means Candians helped out in any part of the world that was not an "oil issue". I am really glad Canada sent their 100 soldiers as a token.

There were over 2000 Canadian forces deployed.

most of the "regular army units" the U.S. sent over would be engineers and back lines base dwellers. The Rangers, Recon, SEALS, Delta Force, etc would be doing most of the ass kickings.

I believe most of the casualties were a direct result of bombings.

hey could have read this board and found out how Canadians think and figured it might be good to take a few of you morons out

So you are condoning premeditated murder?

What kind of morons stages a live exercise in a combat zone anyway?

The Canadian forces had informed the US and allies that they were conducting training excercises at that loaction at that time. What other precations should have been taken, mister smart guy?

If the pilot was "rolling in self defense", that would mean that he thought incoming fire was directed at his plane.

And it's standard procedure to wait for target confirmation before engaging.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 3:09 pm

Kilmoll the Retard wrote: This is about as ignorant as I could ever have imagined possible. By this standard, we could also say that Japan, China, Germany, France, etc. all were involved in the Vietnam war. Just because 30,000 people moved out of logging country to be in an industrial nation and served their new country in a war does NOT mean that their previous country was involved.

You've never set foot in Canada, have you?

Funny that you bring up ignorance when a lot of Americans can't even find Canada on a map of North America.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 3:12 pm

I'm done on this thread....

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » January 3, 2003, 3:12 pm

noel · Post by **noel** » January 3, 2003, 3:23 pm

miir wrote:
2. It is atypical to hold live fire excersizes beneath sites where combat air missions are actively underway.
Is it typical for a US pilot to disobey direct orders and open fire on a non confirmed target?

I covered this all on another thread I'm too lazy to search for...

The pilot was told he was not allowed to strafe the target with guns, but he was never told why. When the pilot continued to recieve ground fire which most likely was NOT coming from the Canadian position, he dropped a bomb from where he felt the ground fire was coming from which unfortunately ended up being the Canadian position.

The cause of the Canadian deaths looks like a communication problem on the part of the US forces. We've apologized for it, our President has apologized for it.

I highly doubt there have never been any incidents of friendly fire in the history of the Canadian military.

Krindol · Post by **Krindol** » January 3, 2003, 3:32 pm

I really don't see what friendly fire has to do with Killmoll's post. What he said about Canadians not being involved in said conflicts was just an obvious dig.

He pointed out that America hasn't been involved in as much oil mongering as some Canadian posters would have you believe.

Doesn't seem to matter much, because most would rather just focus on the dig instead of the completely valid issue that was raised. I mean, for fuck sake, who would want to listen to a fuckwhit redneck like him anyway?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 3, 2003, 3:44 pm

He was ordered to wait but US pilots can call their own shots in self defense situations, which is what this pilot did. So it wasn't a true breach of orders.

I wouldn't rule out the effect of the drugs. Seems a bit odd to me that the pilot would mistake anti-tank training excercises as hostile fire. If the guns had actually been firing up it would be more understandable.

Winnows comments about sponging technology and standard of living is ignorant. Canada has a higher standard of living and a disproportionately large techonology industry to population. Technology has developed in parralel in the US and Canada. We both sponge off Japan.

Kilmoll's list isn't all something to be proud of.

Panama is a black eye in your foreign policy, killing civilians to oust a guy that was on your government payroll, and only because the justice department charged him without the White House knowing about it (they had blocked previous attempts).

Veitnam was a civil war that the US (and the canadians that went) and USSR had no right to interfere with.

Same deal in the Dominican Republic a civil war but to be fair the US didn't meddle as much...mainly just protected the embassy and route to airport.

Grenada, what exactly was the point? Overthrow a government to put a pro-american government there. What exactly is the benefit of a pro-american Grenada government?

Korea, Somalia, Haiti and Iraq all UN missions. All props for going through the UN (although the US should be shamed by its prior support of Iraq). btw Canada participated in all of these also.

I'd also give the US props for its current land mine removal programs.

My biggest issue with the US government, note I make a distiction between the government and the nation, is its lack of respect for any nations' sovereignty other than its own and the means it uses to force itself on these sovereign nations, namely assasinations, subterfuge and invasion.

You forgot to mention:

The Bay of Pigs Invasion of 1961.

The successful CIA subversion of the Guatemala government in 1954 and the subsequent murder of more the 100,000 civilians from 1954-1990 by the CIA installed Castillo Armas government and its successors.

The Contra scandel and the mining of Nicaraguan harbours in the early 1980s.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 3, 2003, 4:24 pm

Forthe wrote:...Seems a bit odd to me that the pilot would mistake anti-tank training excercises as hostile fire. If the guns had actually been firing up it would be more understandable...

Not only was the pilot allowed to act in self-defense, but there were witnesses on the ground that said they saw fire directed at the sky. It's likely that there was fire directed at the sky that did not originate from the Canadian positions, and it's likely that when the pilot looked for a source the Canadian troops were the largest and most obvious source below him.

Canada has a higher standard of living and a disproportionately large techonology industry to population. Technology has developed in parralel in the US and Canada. We both sponge off Japan.

Not to take this too far off topic, but I'd be really intersted in who did the studies that showed Canada with a higher standard of living. I've seen quite a bit of Canada (Vancouver, Alberta, Banff Springs, Toronto) and I have a very hard time seeing how that's possible. Canada is nice and I've always had good experiences there, but I just have a hard time accepting that. Granted, I'm only basing this on my personal experiences and I live in a relatively affluent area of the US and have a job that basically pays for my medical insurance which affords me the best health care in the world.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 3, 2003, 4:59 pm

Forthe wrote:
Winnows comments about sponging technology and standard of living is ignorant. Canada has a higher standard of living and a disproportionately large techonology industry to population. Technology has developed in parralel in the US and Canada. We both sponge off Japan.

You missed my point. Canada sponges just like everyone else. Everyone is linked. It's one big spongbath out there between the high tech countries. You can have your cake but you have to eat it out of the assholes of the other tech countries you sponge off. Just sit back and enjoy your cake (standard of living) but remember how you got that cake.

The United States is in no way independant of Japan, Europe, etc when it comes to technology but without the United States and the rest of the tech world, your whining would come in the form of a typed letter instead of on the internet from your nice speedy computer.

Just be happy that the U.S. takes the political hit for your cushy lifestyles.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 3, 2003, 5:10 pm

Winnow wrote:Just be happy that the U.S. takes the political hit for your cushy lifestyles.

Or the US government can play nice and drastically reduce its political hits while at the same time drastically reducing the size of the big red target it paints on it's back.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 3, 2003, 5:12 pm

Sure Forthe, we only have to write off what? Two, three ethnic populations in order to achieve that?

Grow up.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 3, 2003, 5:24 pm

miir wrote:
they're sponging off the United States for technology just like we're using the rest of the world for resources etc. STFU with your high an mighty U.S. bitching when you partake in our high standards of living.
http://www.iucn.org/info_and_news/press/wonrank.doc

Standards of living:

Canada - 7
USA - 27

Is there room in your big mouth for both feet?

That Study is Bullshit and you know it

Coloumbia 88th with all that Peruvian Flake?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 3, 2003, 5:35 pm

Canadian played command role in 'friendly fire' deaths
Last Updated Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:50:23
OTTAWA - A Canadian officer was in charge of air controllers in Afghanistan the night American pilots mistakenly attacked and killed Canadian soldiers last April, the military confirmed Sunday.

Opps

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 5:46 pm

- Major Harry Schmidt of the Illinois Air National Guard's 170th Fighter Squadron and another unidentified pilot are directly responsible for the incident.

- All pilots had been told in advance that the Canadian troops were conducting live-fire exercises.
The incident was caused by "the failure of the two pilots to execute appropriate flight discipline which resulted in a violation of the rules of engagement and inappropriate use of lethal force."

- Failings within the pilots' immediate command structure were contributing factors to the incident.

- Disciplinary action against the pilots will be taken, but this action will be considered by the air force, and the kind of action could not be elaborated on.

- The succession of events is reported as follows:

- Two U.S. F-16s were returning from a mission in Afghanistan early on April 18, 2002, when they saw what they believed to be enemy fire near Kandahar.

- The lead pilot reported seeing what looked like fireworks. He thought it was ground-to-air fire.

- The pilot requested and received permission to determine the exact co-ordinates of the fire.

- The second F-16 pilot requested permission to fire his 20mm cannon at the target, but he was instructed to "hold fire" while more information was obtained.

- The pilot then stated that he was "rolling-in in self-defence," dropped down to 10,000 feet and dropped a 250-kilogram laser-guided bomb on the target, killing four Canadian soldiers and wounding eight others.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 5:47 pm

Key points from the independently conducted Canadian inquiry:

- American pilots are solely at fault for the bombing of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan in April. Four soldiers were killed and eight more wounded.

- Canadian soldiers have been cleared of any blame. The report concludes that they had followed proper military procedures and notified commanders before embarking on an overnight training exercise.

- Canada had notified American military officers in advance that soldiers would be doing live-fire exercises near Kandahar.

- The pilots of two American F-16s mistakenly assumed that they were being attacked as they returned from a mission and flew over the Canadian military exercise site.

- The Americans showed "failure of airmanship and technique for the wingman and a failure of leadership for the flight leader" when they dropped a 250-kilogram laser-guided bomb on the Canadian troops.

- "The two American pilots contravened established procedure and were the direct cause of the incident."

- The Americans engaged in an "inappropriate use of force."

- Until the moment the bombs struck, Canadian forces had no knowledge of impending danger.
A
- merican pilots were in the position to stop the chain of events that led to the accident so it has been concluded that the American pilots are at fault.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 5:49 pm

More blah blah blah blah in context:

The Coalition Investigation Board (CIB) has issued its findings on the Friendly Fire incident that occurred during the evening of 17 April 2002, near Kandahar, Afghanistan. According to the Report, soldiers from Alpha Company, 3rd Battalion, Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, were engaged in night live-fire training at Tarnak Farms Range. While the Canadian soldiers were training, two U.S. F-16 fighter aircraft were returning from a mission over Afghanistan. As the fighter aircraft passed south of Kandahar, the flight lead noticed what he described as fireworks coming from an area a few miles south of Kandahar. Perceiving this as surface-to-air fire (SAFIRE), the flight lead asked and received permission from an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft to determine the precise coordinates of the source of the SAFIRE. While attempting to obtain the coordinates, the wingman requested permission to fire on the location with his 20mm canon. AWACS told him to stand-by and later requested that he provide additional information on the SAFIRE while also directing him to “hold fire.” The wingman provided the requested information to the AWACS and immediately declared that he was “rolling-in in self defense.” Thereafter, the wingman released a 500-pound laser-guided bomb that impacted a Canadian firing position at the Tarnak Farms Range. Four Canadians were killed and eight wounded. All the wounded soldiers were immediately evacuated from the area for medical treatment.

The CIB found the cause of the friendly fire incident to be the failure of the two pilots to exercise appropriate flight discipline, which resulted in a violation of the rules of engagement (ROE) and an inappropriate use of lethal force. The Board further found that failings within the pilots’ immediate command structures, while not causing the incident, were contributing factors.

The Commander, United States Central Command, General Tommy R. Franks, has approved the Report of Investigation. As matters of discipline are a Service responsibility, General Franks has returned the report to his Air Force component for disciplinary action as may be appropriate. General Franks has forwarded the report to all of his subordinate commands to review the safety and operational efficiency suggestions of the Board and to ensure that the lessons learned are incorporated into future operations.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 3, 2003, 5:54 pm

Didn't you say you were done with this thread?

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 5:55 pm

Cut n paste
no comment

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 3, 2003, 5:57 pm

Point blame wherever you like. Common sense just *might* come into play with your own commanders in the Candaian armed forces that would tell you to not practice for a war in a place where one is taking place.

This is tantamount to a Canadian football team going practice on the field while a game between Cincinnati and Pittsburgh was going on and then wondering why their players were struck in the side of the head by errant throws from Bengals QBs.

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 6:12 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Point blame wherever you like. Common sense just *might* come into play with your own commanders in the Candaian armed forces that would tell you to not practice for a war in a place where one is taking place.

http://www.centcom.mil/News/Reports/Tar ... Report.htm

The incident occured at the Tarnak Farms Range in Afghanistan on April 17 2002.

The Tarnak Farms area was secured in January 2002.

American and Canadian troops had been using the Tarnak Farms Range as a live-fire range for 4 months.

Live fire manouvers were authorized at the Tarnak Farms Range.

"The Tarnak Farms Range SOP was drafted in compliance with U.S. and Canadian orders and instructions applicable to this type of range training facility. "

miir · Post by **miir** » January 3, 2003, 6:14 pm

errant throws from Bengals QBs

ROFLMAO
Sad but true.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 3, 2003, 6:27 pm

I get all my Canadian News from this site titled, Canada Kicks Ass

http://cka.northwebs.com/cka/index.php

I suppose if nothing else you can check out the Canadian Babes in the picture section. The Canadian Armed Forces section is missing the picture I posted here awhile back.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 3, 2003, 6:37 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Point blame wherever you like. Common sense just *might* come into play with your own commanders in the Candaian armed forces that would tell you to not practice for a war in a place where one is taking place.

This is tantamount to a Canadian football team going practice on the field while a game between Cincinnati and Pittsburgh was going on and then wondering why their players were struck in the side of the head by errant throws from Bengals QBs.

I don't agree with your conclusion, Kilmoll, but I also don't understand why certain Canadians have to repeatedly bring up this event to illustrate the incompetence of the American armed forces as though there's never been an incident of friendly fire in the Canadian armed forces.

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » January 3, 2003, 6:49 pm

OMG all of this BULLSHIT just because Kyoukan is a complete and utter MORON. Canada has been the USA's ally since we kicked your asses in1812 and burned your whitehouse. If you want to attack Kyoukan np but leave the rest of us Canadians that appreciate the USA out of it.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » January 3, 2003, 6:58 pm

Hammerstalker PE wrote:Canada has been the USA's ally since we kicked your asses in1812 and burned your whitehouse

You do realize that the US won the War of 1812, right?