Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Fash »

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071030/D8SJ8BM80.html
LONDONDERRY, N.H. (AP) - Republican presidential hopeful Rudy Giuliani said Monday that two of the Democratic candidates will change their minds again about the Iraq war and agree that it was the right decision.

Asked at a town-hall meeting to characterize the mission of U.S. troops in Iraq, Giuliani said they have done an admirable job.

"Do I think the mission overall in Iraq is the correct one, I think without a doubt it is," the former New York mayor said at Insight Technologies, which makes tactical weapon lights and laser systems for the military.

"And I think the Democrats are going to change their minds about it again," Giuliani said, noting that Hillary Rodham Clinton and John Edwards voted as senators for the initial invasion in 2003.

Edwards, who is no longer in the Senate, since has apologized for his vote. Clinton has not apologized, but has said she would not have voted for the measure authorizing use of force if she had known then what she knows now.

"I think they're going to change their minds. I think the verdict of history is going to be that it was the right decision," Giuliani said.

He argued that had the U.S. not invaded Iraq, it would now be facing two dangerous countries trying to become nuclear powers - Iraq and Iran.


"Suppose Hillary Clinton and John Edwards' new position was their position back then, that it was a mistake to take him out," Giuliani said, referring to former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. "Wouldn't we be dealing with Saddam Hussein becoming nuclear right now? If Iran was becoming nuclear what would he be doing? Sitting there letting his arch enemy gain nuclear power over him? Or would we now be dealing with two countries seeking to become nuclear powers."

On Iran, Giuliani criticized Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., also a candidate for president, for saying they would engage in diplomatic relations with Iran.
Obama has said he would be willing to meet with Iran's leader in the first year of his presidency without conditions; Clinton has said envoys below the presidential level should begin diplomatic work.

"This is the world we live in. It's not this happy, romantic-like world where we'll negotiate with this one, or we'll negotiate with that one and there will be no preconditions, and we'll invite (Iranian President Mahmoud) Ahmadinejad to the White House, we'll invite Osama (bin Laden) to the White House," Giuliani said.

"Hillary and Obama are kind of debating whether to invite them to the inauguration or the inaugural ball," he added.


Giuliani said the U.S. should be ready to negotiate, but "you can't negotiate with people unless they want to negotiate with you."

The Democrats' campaigns quickly challenged Giuliani.

Edwards spokeswoman Kate Bedingfield said Giuliani was spinning "convoluted foreign policy theories" and that Edwards "believes we have to take action to end the war quickly and responsibly and bring our troops home."

Reid Cherlin, Obama's spokesman, said Giuliani's "cheap applause lines, unfounded political smears, and shoot-first-think-later politics are irresponsible in a campaign, and would be catastrophic in a presidency."

Clinton's spokeswoman said the senator and Giuliani differ on the war.

"She will end the war in Iraq, reverse the Bush era cowboy diplomacy and restore America's standing around the world," said Kathleen Strand. "Mr. Giuliani wants to escalate the war in Iraq and continues to blindly support President Bush's failed foreign policies."


Earlier Monday, Giuliani discussed his health care plan privately with Manchester Chamber of Commerce members. His campaign also began airing a new radio ad in the state in which he discusses his bout with prostate cancer and promotes the $15,000 tax breaks he says he would give families to buy private health insurance.
Ehhhh, I don't know about that, Rudy... It would be great if eventually this whole situation was viewed as a global positive, but I'm not as confident as he is.

As far as the dem's changing their minds, it's a non-issue... if it turns out to be a good thing, you can't fault them for coming around (they just aren't as blindly optimistic)
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Arborealus »

Does this mean we can look forward to another campaign season of republicans flipping their hands back and forth?...'cause that was infinitely amusing!
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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Arborealus wrote:Does this mean we can look forward to another campaign season of republicans flipping their hands back and forth?...'cause that was infinitely amusing!
Yes, it was so amusing I wanted to shoot my tv :)
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Arborealus »

Canelek wrote:
Arborealus wrote:Does this mean we can look forward to another campaign season of republicans flipping their hands back and forth?...'cause that was infinitely amusing!
Yes, it was so amusing I wanted to shoot my tv :)
Hrmmm clearly it did some good then!
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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Arborealus wrote:
Canelek wrote:
Arborealus wrote:Does this mean we can look forward to another campaign season of republicans flipping their hands back and forth?...'cause that was infinitely amusing!
Yes, it was so amusing I wanted to shoot my tv :)
Hrmmm clearly it did some good then!
Well, I <3 my TV--I just wanted to get the little people that live inside it.

I am also looking forward to more positive, benevolent republican campaigning my Mr. Ted Nugent. :D
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Boogahz »

Canelek wrote:Well, I <3 my TV--I just wanted to get the little people that live inside it.
Stop watching Teletubby reruns
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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It would be great if eventually this whole situation was viewed as a global positive, but I'm not as confident as he is.
And you're right to be. The likelihood of Iraq ever being viewed as a global positive is about as likely as the moon being made out of cheese.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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It's quite a bit more likely than that, but your point is made.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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Mmmm. A moon made out of cheese...
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

If in ten years Iraq is a more stable and productive country and it is no longer politically viable to trash the war, then political scum bags will project a different view on the war effort than they do right now. The problem with many of you folks, is that you truly believe that these politicans believe one word they are saying.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by miir »

Sorta like how people look back on Vietnam in a favorable light... or maybe how DPRK is now a stable and productive country?

The recent history of large scale, American military operations doesn't exactly instill any optimisim that Iraq will turn out favorably.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

miir wrote:Sorta like how people look back on Vietnam in a favorable light... or maybe how DPRK is now a stable and productive country?

The recent history of large scale, American military operations doesn't exactly instill any optimisim that Iraq will turn out favorably.
Time will tell.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Vetiria »

quote="Midnyte_Ragebringer"]If in ten years Iraq is a more stable and productive country [/quote]

And what if it's not? Will you actually reverse your opinion or will you go on with your hard-headed ways? It's almost been 5 years. It didn't take 15 years to realize Vietnam was a major failure and it surely won't take that long with Iraq, either.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Vetiria wrote:quote="Midnyte_Ragebringer"]If in ten years Iraq is a more stable and productive country
And what if it's not? Will you actually reverse your opinion or will you go on with your hard-headed ways? It's almost been 5 years. It didn't take 15 years to realize Vietnam was a major failure and it surely won't take that long with Iraq, either.[/quote]

Vietnam wasn't a failing venture going into it. We didn't fight it the right way. Many historians will tell you that. We've had this conversation numerous times before.

5 years into a war is no time to make a decision on its long term merits. To do so, would be being hard-headed.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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5 years is not enough time to assess the progress of a war? How many American wars lasted more than 5 years Midnyte? HOW FUCKING MANY?

ignorant cunt.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Boogahz »

Xyun wrote:5 years is not enough time to assess the progress of a war? How many American wars lasted more than 5 years Midnyte? HOW FUCKING MANY?

ignorant cunt.
to be fair, he did not say anything about determining the progress of a war in five years.

He said:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: 5 years into a war is no time to make a decision on its long term merits.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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nonsense. The merits of all the wars we won including WWI, WWII, the revolutionary war, the civil war, etc. were easily determined within 5 years of our entrance into them. It is only when we lose wars or are losing wars that moronic statements like the one quoted above are made. it is a perfect example of someone who does not understand the history of this country or the concept of war.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Xyun wrote:nonsense. The merits of all the wars we won including WWI, WWII, the revolutionary war, the civil war, etc. were easily determined within 5 years of our entrance into them. It is only when we lose wars or are losing wars that moronic statements like the one quoted above are made. it is a perfect example of someone who does not understand the history of this country or the concept of war.
You live in a black and white world. You expect all decisions to be easy ones. Life doesn't always work that way.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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The difference is, all of those wars ended with the defeat of standing armies (England in the Revolutionary War arguably had more forces elsewhere, but decided to throw in the towel). That point was reached rather quickly in both Afganistan and Iraq, as Americans we've become quite adept at blowing up anything we can see, but we're dealing with hidden radical elements that do not have the good of the general population in mind and there's no central authority (of the hostile forces) interested in peace talks to return to life as normal having gotten spanked.

It's a different kind of war and I don't think anyone knows how to "win" it.

It's a big shit sandwich and the powers-that-be really didn't think this one through before they pulled the trigger.

Fuckers.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:You live in a black and white world. You expect all decisions to be easy ones. Life doesn't always work that way.
Oh please don't go back to this bullshit again.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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You live in a black and white world. You expect all decisions to be easy ones. Life doesn't always work that way.
It would be awesome if you graced everyone with any actual discussion beyond this lcd pious bullshit.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:
You live in a black and white world. You expect all decisions to be easy ones. Life doesn't always work that way.
It would be awesome if you graced everyone with any actual discussion beyond this lcd pious bullshit.
This response proves my point. You searching for a quick and easy answer that does not exist. This type of war effort will not prove to be a horrid mistake, invalid, or a very good thing until time passes. After we leave and 5-10-15 years down the road will tell what this war effort did. Does it end up in the middle east being a more progressive and productive region? Who knows. I choose not to act like I know.
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Canelek »

I just don't see a possibility of there being a progressive society in the middle east, in general, at least not one spawned from our occupation. The current "war effort" needs to be completely re-engineered so to speak...and not by the current administration, who have no perspective. The enemy is no longer one face, but the faces of millions--and not too many of them are happy with us being there. =/
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

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Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: This response proves my point. You searching for a quick and easy answer that does not exist. This type of war effort will not prove to be a horrid mistake, invalid, or a very good thing until time passes. After we leave and 5-10-15 years down the road will tell what this war effort did. Does it end up in the middle east being a more progressive and productive region? Who knows. I choose not to act like I know.
I'm not searching for anything, since anyone with a brain knew it was a bad idea to invade a weak little country, bomb the everliving shit out of it, kill hundreds of thousands of people and create a mass uprising of international resentment all over the globe simply because most of you were stupid enough to be brainwashed by your retarded leader to legitimise an experiment in propogating Democracy in an area of the world that already thinks you're fucking morons.

Hence the Vietnam comparison. Vietnam is a growing country, although it's still a far cry from being 1st world, yet everyone still thinks the Vietnam war was retarded.

This whole "time will tell" argument is a convenient way of avoiding taking responsibility for your own clusterfuck. You'll be using that fucking phrase until your dying day, so what's the point of taking you seriously when you hide behind such a cheap little tactic?
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Re: Rudy predicts flip-floppage on Iraq

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: This response proves my point. You searching for a quick and easy answer that does not exist. This type of war effort will not prove to be a horrid mistake, invalid, or a very good thing until time passes. After we leave and 5-10-15 years down the road will tell what this war effort did. Does it end up in the middle east being a more progressive and productive region? Who knows. I choose not to act like I know.
I'm not searching for anything, since anyone with a brain knew it was a bad idea to invade a weak little country, bomb the everliving shit out of it, kill hundreds of thousands of people and create a mass uprising of international resentment all over the globe simply because most of you were stupid enough to be brainwashed by your retarded leader to legitimise an experiment in propogating Democracy in an area of the world that already thinks you're fucking morons.

Hence the Vietnam comparison. Vietnam is a growing country, although it's still a far cry from being 1st world, yet everyone still thinks the Vietnam war was retarded.

This whole "time will tell" argument is a convenient way of avoiding taking responsibility for your own clusterfuck. You'll be using that fucking phrase until your dying day, so what's the point of taking you seriously when you hide behind such a cheap little tactic?
No tactics man. You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm sorry if my opinion bothers you.
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