Burma Massacre

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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Zaelath »

Somali wrote:
Markulas wrote:The US actually gives a lesser percent of their GDP to foreign aid than other industrialized countries.
Here's an interesting link if you're interested in reading some interesting facts about our aid to foreign countries.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelate ... Militarism
True, but you'll notice when you look at that same page; from a pure dollar figure we pony up almost twice as much as the next closest country. It could be argued that we cut back on international spending to prevent incurring an even larger national debt. Hell, if we cut back a little further we could pay off our national debt a bit sooner.
You give just enough foreign aid to keep these people in their own shithole countries and out of yours.

Don't confuse your misanthropy for philanthropy.

It's much cheaper to keep people at the right level of poverty than it is to fight them for resources.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Zaelath wrote:
Somali wrote:
Markulas wrote:The US actually gives a lesser percent of their GDP to foreign aid than other industrialized countries.
Here's an interesting link if you're interested in reading some interesting facts about our aid to foreign countries.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelate ... Militarism
True, but you'll notice when you look at that same page; from a pure dollar figure we pony up almost twice as much as the next closest country. It could be argued that we cut back on international spending to prevent incurring an even larger national debt. Hell, if we cut back a little further we could pay off our national debt a bit sooner.
You give just enough foreign aid to keep these people in their own shithole countries and out of yours.

Don't confuse your misanthropy for philanthropy.

It's much cheaper to keep people at the right level of poverty than it is to fight them for resources.
You make no sense. If we wanted to keep them poor, we wouldn't give them shit. Stop blaming the USA for everything. If these shithole countries would actually use the money to improce their infrastructure, technology, housing, business, etc., we wouldn't have to continue to poor money into them and they wouldn't still be poor and desolate.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

It sure is interesting* looking at the fishbowl attitude various Americans have on this board in regards to anything outside their borders.


* Comical.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Winnow »

Nick wrote:It sure is interesting* looking at the fishbowl attitude various Americans have on this board in regards to anything outside their borders.


* Comical.

It goes from God, to the United States, to the dry cleaners, to Ireland

Name the movie this is paraphrased from!
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Winnow wrote:
Nick wrote:It sure is interesting* looking at the fishbowl attitude various Americans have on this board in regards to anything outside their borders.


* Comical.

It goes from God, to the United States, to the dry cleaners, to Ireland

Name the movie this is paraphrased from!

Boondock Saints?
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:It sure is interesting* looking at the fishbowl attitude various Americans have on this board in regards to anything outside their borders.


* Comical.

When your country is the greatest, most generous, powerful country in the world....then you talk and make your snide comments.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

Oh right, people are only allowed to have an opinion once their country of birth (a random factor!) is the major superpower.

Nice logic retard.
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Re: Burma Massacre

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Everyone has an oppurtinity to be an American!
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Winnow »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Boondock Saints?
Real Genius! 1985
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Winnow wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Boondock Saints?
Real Genius! 1985
Damn. Been a long time since I saw that movie. I love Val.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Somali »

Zaelath wrote: You give just enough foreign aid to keep these people in their own shithole countries and out of yours.
Don't confuse your misanthropy for philanthropy.
It's much cheaper to keep people at the right level of poverty than it is to fight them for resources.
Just enough foreign aid equates to nearly twice as much as the next closest country.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to us going and bailing out Burma or wherever the hell, but we do have a legitimate debt to international entities and I would also like to see that debt go "buh-bye." I sincerely doubt that we will see those entities wipe our debt clean in the fashion we did for the ones that owed us monies after the WWs, but barring that we do need to cut spending in some areas. This has to be done so that we do not incur additional debts and so that we have the potential to pay back the ones currently owed. The fact that we have any foreign aid policy at all in a time when we have debts speaks to our generosity. I'm sure it would be less expensive to export people back to their own countries rather than pay 20 Bazillion (not looking any more was it 20T?) a year to help out the needy and still have people trying to come into the States.
Now if you want to argue that we give just enough in an attempt to not look like rich assholes, I'll concede that. And yes, we still look like rich assholes.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Somali »

Spang wrote:Everyone has an oppurtinity to be an American!
I thought we were pretty tight about giving out citizenships in the past 10ish years. Has it opened back up?
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Somali wrote:
Spang wrote:Everyone has an oppurtinity to be an American!
I thought we were pretty tight about giving out citizenships in the past 10ish years. Has it opened back up?
Tight? Not quite.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Funkmasterr »

If your definition of tight is anyone that can get into the country can find some reason to get the government to let them stay, then yeah, it's tight.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Sylvus »

I think citizenship is harder to get than that.

Let's ask Xyun. Or has anyone else here had to apply for citizenship?
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Sylvus wrote:I think citizenship is harder to get than that.

Let's ask Xyun. Or has anyone else here had to apply for citizenship?
Xyun isn't Latino. He actually had to earn his citizenship.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Somali »

If we're gonna go the Latino route...
Illegal alien != citizenship
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Markulas »

Luckily our country's economy is at least 3 times greater than any other country. A millionaire who gives a 1,000 dollars is somehow more generous than someone who makes 30,000 and donates 500 (Sweden's GDP is less than 1/34th of ours)?

I'm curious to know what everyone believes citizenship should be based on? Should we allow immigrants into our borders? How many? For what reasons? Is the citizenship test too difficult (although they are changing it)? Can you pass the citizenship test? What does it mean to be a citizen? etc.
Last edited by Markulas on October 4, 2007, 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Somali »

I understand about the percentage seeming to be a better scale of the true impact the contribution has to a particular country. But as you pointed out earlier, sheer $$$ isn't our only contribution to foreign aid. We do perform peace keeping missions from time to time as well. Also, economy of scale doesn't really play well for our military and legislative branches. We spend a fantastical amount of money on those things.

I would judge a country's generosity as a function of what they give with respect to what they can afford to give. We're giving aid despite having a financial deficit. We could argue that we are extremely generous on those grounds. The counter would be that we should cut spending somewhere else to reduce our debts and still contribute a standardized % of the other countries. The most likely place to cut would be military spending. We could save a great deal of money if we pulled out from the various bases we had around the world ad reduced our military personnel and weapons spending. Then again, we would also be placing a large number of people on unemployment with that tactic and the ripple affect could have serious repercussions on the US economy.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Sueven »

Markulas wrote:I'm curious to know what everyone believes citizenship should be based on? Should we allow immigrants into our borders? How many many? For what reasons? Is the citizenship test too difficult (although they are changing it)? Can you pass the citizenship test? What does it mean to be a citizen? etc.
Well, I think it's important to keep immigration and citizenship separate.

I'm torn on the criteria we should employ for immigration. I'm in favor of a relatively open immigration policy, in keeping with the history of the United States as an immigrant nation where people can come to seek opportunity. But at the same time, I understand that many would-be immigrants have trouble assimilating, whether due to cultural differences, linguistic differences, unemployability, or other reasons. I also understand that we want immigrants to benefit the nation as well as using it (ask what you can do for your country, not what your country can do for you and all that). So a balance needs to be struck.

I'm in favor of the employment and education visas that we grant, although these are typically temporary. If someone wants to come here to learn from an institution that wants to teach them, or to work for an organization who wants to employ them, I'm all for it.

I also want people to be able to move to the United States simply because they want to come here (within reason, of course). There's a serious incentive issue, though. Those immigrants who do have the linguistic, cultural, and functional skills to easily assimilate into American society tend to come from other advanced Western nations. These nations share many of our best features: fairly high standards of living, well functioning economies, political stability and security. Thus, citizens of these nations don't have huge incentives to emigrate. Citizens of impoverished nations do have strong incentives to come here. However, they also lack the ability to easily assimilate. I do not think that ease of assimilation should be a test as to whether a person can come to America or not, however, the factor does deserve some consideration.

I think that in general I would say:

Folks with technical expertise in the field should assess how many immigrants America is capable of handling. We should then permit that many immigrants, allowing us to be as welcoming as is reasonably possible.

Some significant percentage of these slots should go to those who have valid work/educational/family reasons for wanting to come to America (that is, they have some connection beyond just "I want to live there.") These people should receive priority.

The remaining slots should be given to those who simply want to live in America. Experts should study the consequences of divvying up these slots in various ways, and should eventually choose a division which allows reasonable opportunity for everyone from first-world Europeans to third-world Africans. Race, religion and culture should not be taken into account, but cultural factors (which I understand can sometimes be a proxy for race religion and culture) should be taken into account to a certain extent.

As for citizenship: Those who are legally in the United States should have a straightforward path to obtaining citizenship. That's not to say that citizenship should be automatic or easy to obtain, but the process for getting it should be clear and transparent. A significant residency requirement should exist, along with basic familiarity with America, in terms of history and civics and so forth. Productivity should be taken into account. Someone seeking to become an American citizen should be doing something, whether that something is holding a job, raising a family, performing philanthropy, whatever. The person should demonstrate that their presence here yields a positive contribution. The individual seeking citizenship should also demonstrate that they're capable of getting by in America. This does not require speaking English, but the skill might be very helpful. Basically, the would-be citizen should prove that they're capable of accomplishing basic tasks like acquiring and preparing food, abiding by American laws and regulations, finding a place to live, and so forth. The way that the country works shouldn't be alien to them.

So:

1. Let in as many immigrants as practical.
2. Give priority to those who have connections with America.
3. For those without connections, achieve an equitable distribution between geographic, cultural, and economic backgrounds.
4. Grant citizenship to those who reside legally for a substantial amount of time, are familiar with the country, are contributing to the country, and are capable of getting by in the country.

As Somali suggested, Funkmasterr and Midnyte might want to look up the difference between "alien" and "citizen."
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Funkmasterr »

I think I am fully aware of the difference between "alien" and "citizen". What I'm also aware of is no matter what title you put on it, the motherfuckers are all living here, and benefiting from being here in one way or the other. There is really no need to even have a big discussion/debate about it..
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Sueven »

The quote was specifically ABOUT CITIZENSHIP.
I thought we were pretty tight about giving out citizenships in the past 10ish years. Has it opened back up?
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Re: Burma Massacre

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Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Somali wrote:
Markulas wrote:The US actually gives a lesser percent of their GDP to foreign aid than other industrialized countries.
Here's an interesting link if you're interested in reading some interesting facts about our aid to foreign countries.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelate ... Militarism
True, but you'll notice when you look at that same page; from a pure dollar figure we pony up almost twice as much as the next closest country. It could be argued that we cut back on international spending to prevent incurring an even larger national debt. Hell, if we cut back a little further we could pay off our national debt a bit sooner.
You give just enough foreign aid to keep these people in their own shithole countries and out of yours.

Don't confuse your misanthropy for philanthropy.

It's much cheaper to keep people at the right level of poverty than it is to fight them for resources.
You make no sense. If we wanted to keep them poor, we wouldn't give them shit. Stop blaming the USA for everything. If these shithole countries would actually use the money to improce their infrastructure, technology, housing, business, etc., we wouldn't have to continue to poor money into them and they wouldn't still be poor and desolate.
You have no comprehension; you don't want them TOO poor, or they might work out that war is a better option than starving. Abject poverty makes you a good candidate for extremists and people looking for suicide bombers too.
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Re: Burma Massacre

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Somali wrote:
Zaelath wrote: You give just enough foreign aid to keep these people in their own shithole countries and out of yours.
Don't confuse your misanthropy for philanthropy.
It's much cheaper to keep people at the right level of poverty than it is to fight them for resources.
Just enough foreign aid equates to nearly twice as much as the next closest country.
Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to us going and bailing out Burma or wherever the hell, but we do have a legitimate debt to international entities and I would also like to see that debt go "buh-bye." I sincerely doubt that we will see those entities wipe our debt clean in the fashion we did for the ones that owed us monies after the WWs, but barring that we do need to cut spending in some areas. This has to be done so that we do not incur additional debts and so that we have the potential to pay back the ones currently owed. The fact that we have any foreign aid policy at all in a time when we have debts speaks to our generosity. I'm sure it would be less expensive to export people back to their own countries rather than pay 20 Bazillion (not looking any more was it 20T?) a year to help out the needy and still have people trying to come into the States.
Now if you want to argue that we give just enough in an attempt to not look like rich assholes, I'll concede that. And yes, we still look like rich assholes.
No... you give enough to avoid spending more defending your borders/rebuilding your cities/conducting ethnic cleansing. You are not hampered in your phianthropy because you're blushing about it.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Somali »

I need some clarification on both points here.
Zaelath wrote:You are not hampered in your philanthropy because you're blushing about it.
This must be some local idiom. What exactly is that supposed to mean? It would seem you are saying "[we] aren't limited because we're embarrassed by it?" If a take that interpretation another step, I would ask if you are implying that you feel that the fact that we are embarrassed is an indicator of the fact that we could afford more aid.
If my interpretation is correct, how would one have anything to do with the other? If we wanted to give more, but could not "afford" it, we could be embarrassed by that fact. That said, I'm not even sure that we are embarrassed by the amount we provide in foreign aid.

Zaelath wrote: No... you give enough to avoid spending more defending your borders/rebuilding your cities/conducting ethnic cleansing.
What threat to our cities do poor people in Africa pose exactly?
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Zaelath »

I'll break it down in to small chunks and stop, I'm not getting into a debate with the ramblotron again.

I think you, as a nation, could give more, and would if you were as christian as you make out.

I don't think you should do any more than you want to.

I'm completely fucking certain you shouldn't walk around slapping yourself on the back at how generous you are.

If you want to see how threatening poor people can be, see 9/11. Unless you think that was a government conspiracy.
Last edited by Zaelath on October 5, 2007, 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Burma Massacre

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Assuming Bin Laden was involved, poor people were not responsible for 9/11. The hijackers may have been poor, but they were well funded by a pissed off rich guy.
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Re: Burma Massacre

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Spang wrote:Assuming Bin Laden was involved, poor people were not responsible for 9/11. The hijackers may have been poor, but they were well funded by a pissed off rich guy.
Indeed, and who gives a flying fuck who's "responsible"? You still need a pool of willing participants in your well funded schemes, and the best place to look for that is the desperate poor.
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Re: Burma Massacre

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Spang wrote:Assuming Bin Laden was involved, poor people were not responsible for 9/11. The hijackers may have been poor, but they were well funded by a pissed off rich guy.
ok.
poor people were not responsible for 9/11
The hijackers may have been poor
poor people were not responsible for 9/11
The hijackers may have been poor
The hijackers may have been poor


The hijackers may have been poor

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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Spang »

You left out the guy with the money.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

So the poor areas, and people, of the Middle East isn't/aren't a breeding ground for dissent?

Really?

We aren't seriously going to argue this are we? It would be such a retarded waste of time.
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Re: Burma Massacre

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I'm not saying that at all. Poor people can be pissed off at America just as much as people with a bankroll, but the poor people aren't gonna be able to do 9/11 without the pissed off rich guy.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Winnow »

Zaelath wrote:
Indeed, and who gives a flying fuck who's "responsible"? You still need a pool of willing participants in your well funded schemes, and the best place to look for that is the desperate poor.
Or look for really gullible religious people. People do all sorts of stupid shit for their God.

Paying the families of suicide bomber kids is another story.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Forthe »

Somali wrote:
Markulas wrote:The US actually gives a lesser percent of their GDP to foreign aid than other industrialized countries.
Here's an interesting link if you're interested in reading some interesting facts about our aid to foreign countries.
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelate ... Militarism
True, but you'll notice when you look at that same page; from a pure dollar figure we pony up almost twice as much as the next closest country. It could be argued that we cut back on international spending to prevent incurring an even larger national debt. Hell, if we cut back a little further we could pay off our national debt a bit sooner.
The US "foreign aid" budget would have a have little effect on US national debt.

I don't understand how people in the US aren't concerned with the national debt, it is like watching a train headed for a collapsed bridge. GWB is on course to double your national debt during his tenure and debt growth is substantially outpacing GDP growth, going from a mid-high 50% GDP to ~70% GDP now.

As for the Burma situation; the US is no more obligated to help than any other country. As Wulfran explained it is a complicated issue but I believe we all should feel some shame regardless. In the unlikely event that any one of our governments does help they deserve props for it.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

Spang wrote:I'm not saying that at all. Poor people can be pissed off at America just as much as people with a bankroll, but the poor people aren't gonna be able to do 9/11 without the pissed off rich guy.
It's not like planning 9/11 cost a lot of money, that is half of why it's such a horrific event. :roll:
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Spang »

Find me 15 poor Africans able to fly some hijacked commercial airliners into U.S. buildings using their own hardearned money.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

That is a worryingly naive bet.

(Hint: 9/11 wasn't caused by Africans)


In all seriousness, I'm not arguing that poverty stricken Saudi's subsidised the whole thing themselves, but to say that blame is to be put entirely on Bin Laden, when there are ample, and INCREASING, numbers of lower class saudi's who will happily kill themselves to obliterate your nation, is a fucking shortsighted and naive view imo mate.

We all know the USA, Britain, Spain or any other Pro-"war on terror" bullshit country, could be targeted and attacked successfully by relatively poor men with a serious vendetta against say...the murdering of 700,000 innocent muslims.....for example.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Spang »

I guess if enough poor people pooled their money together, they could fund their own 9/11.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

Well it's happened once, I'm sure that'll never happen again though :roll:
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Funkmasterr
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:That is a worryingly naive bet.

(Hint: 9/11 wasn't caused by Africans)


In all seriousness, I'm not arguing that poverty stricken Saudi's subsidised the whole thing themselves, but to say that blame is to be put entirely on Bin Laden, when there are ample, and INCREASING, numbers of lower class saudi's who will happily kill themselves to obliterate your nation, is a fucking shortsighted and naive view imo mate.

We all know the USA, Britain, Spain or any other Pro-"war on terror" bullshit country, could be targeted and attacked successfully by relatively poor men with a serious vendetta against say...the murdering of 700,000 innocent muslims.....for example.

Care to elaborate on what retarded point you are trying to make here? Since when were you someone to beat around "the bush".. lawl.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

It's self evident you fucking moron.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Funkmasterr »

Nick wrote:It's self evident you fucking moron.
That's not what I asked. I want to see you spell it out.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Keverian FireCry »

Whether you agree with Nick or not, his point is pretty fucking clear. If you truly don't understand the point he's trying to make you're not worth the time it takes for anyone to "spell it out" for you.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Boogahz »

Keverian FireCry wrote:Whether you agree with Nick or not, his point is pretty fucking clear. If you truly don't understand the point he's trying to make you're not worth the time it takes for anyone to "spell it out" for you.
I think he's trying to get some proof of the numbers, and there is nothing wrong in asking that.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

The Lancet report?

Ten extra points of comedy for the first person to pull the whole "That methodology is so innaccurate" nonsense whilst failing to acknowledge that it's been the accepted methodology in the US for virtually every other conflict since its invention.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Boogahz »

The last number I saw from that report was 655,000, and even that isn't 100% accurate. As for your comment about it being the preferred method for every other conflict since it's invention, I guess it's a good thing that this conflict is just like any other one.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Nick »

That's a pretty embarrassing cop out of an attempt to invalidate the Lancet Report's legitimacy, even for an American.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Keverian FireCry »

I think he's trying to get some proof of the numbers, and there is nothing wrong in asking that.
Of course not, but whether or not Nick's numbers are spot on doesn't make his point any less clear.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Boogahz »

Keverian FireCry wrote:
I think he's trying to get some proof of the numbers, and there is nothing wrong in asking that.
Of course not, but whether or not Nick's numbers are spot on doesn't make his point any less clear.
True, I am sure that all 700k (keke) were innocent too.
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Re: Burma Massacre

Post by Funkmasterr »

Keverian FireCry wrote:Whether you agree with Nick or not, his point is pretty fucking clear. If you truly don't understand the point he's trying to make you're not worth the time it takes for anyone to "spell it out" for you.
I don't agree with him, but that is only half the point. I don't care if his point is clear, I fucking asked him to elaborate, and that is exactly what I expect, not lip from your stupid ass. And trust me, I really don't care if people inferior to me (yourself, for example) don't think i'm worth the time it takes to do anything, because I couldn't possibly give less of a shit about your opinion.

Now back to the point I was making before you got confused and thought I was addressing you, 1- I do question how accurate the numbers are, but I cannot disprove it myself, and nick is just going to make some ridiculous comment about how ignorant it is to question anything he believes in so I'm not going to even bother elaborating on why.

I just like the way nick is making it sound like the U.S. just showed up in Iraq one day, started going house to house and killing innocent people when they answered their door, and that's what pissed the people off fighting us, so we must be getting what we have coming, right? I can only wonder what it is like to live in such a deluded reality, then take it a step further by daring to ever even think of telling someone else they are off base.
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