CNN reports on captured Terrorists..

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 1, 2003, 4:15 am

Teurde,

You are aware that the definition of "weapons of mass destruction" also includes cute lil' things like Anthrax, right?

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » January 1, 2003, 4:40 am

I don't care what weapon it is. What gives the US the right to have such weapons and other countries not?

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » January 1, 2003, 4:44 am

Ghandi was lucky he was dealing with a civil nation ie The Britisih Empire. Had he faced Saddam Hussien or Adolf Hitler or Mao Tse Sung he would be tank tanks. The thing Kyoukan DOESN'T get nor do any of you others is that you are NOT dealing with rational people here. WAKE THE FUCK UP! Saddam used Biological and other weapons of mass destruction on the Kurds and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Kyoukan until some asshole terrorist organization attacks Canada STFU.

The USA and her allies do what is best IMO for all of us.

Kyoukan answer one question just one. If you see someone getting the shit kicked out of them do you:

A) Rush to their aid.
B) Call the police.
C) Walk on past and do nothing.

Hrmm answer carefully.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » January 1, 2003, 4:55 am

If I walked past some dude beating the fuck outta another one. I'd ask why. Then when I found out the guy getting beat up raped the other guys mother, I'd help him beat the crap outta the guy.

Who are you to judge?

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » January 1, 2003, 4:58 am

Another thing I'm wondering....what do you think the USA would do if the arab counties all cut off the oil supply? I bet we'd see an even uglier side.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 1, 2003, 5:50 am

Wanted to clarify this. By using the term "captured", one would assume they are talking about poeple taken by millitary action. It's not a word normally used when speaking of someone arrested by law enforcement.

Fallanthas your sheer stupidy never ceases to amaze me. I shouldn't even dignify this ignorant statement with a response.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 1, 2003, 6:02 am

Kyoukan answer one question just one. If you see someone getting the shit kicked out of them do you:

A) Rush to their aid.
B) Call the police.
C) Walk on past and do nothing.

C.

American diplomancy was not the cause of Terrorism. Simply put terrorism has been in use for well over 2000 years, so it can't be the cause of terrorism. It is a mean for a few to affect the changes they wish on the many, that is all. It is a means to end, nothing more. If the terrorists felt they could be more successful via other means they would be using them.

Moron! It is not the cause of terrorism but it is the cause of terrorism TOWARDS AMERICA. If you can't understand this simple concept, why should I even bother debating with your stupid ass?

The main problem in this debate is that most of you idiots are missing the main point of it. I have no problem with taking a hard line against problematic leaders and nations. I have no problem of trying to get rid of these people. What I have a problem with is the thousands or maybe even millions of innocent people that will die or get tortured in the process.

In this case the ends DO NOT justify the means.

There are better ways of doing things like this. Unfortunately, you brainless zombies elected<cough> a brainless zombie president, and he does not have the ability to do this job.

[/quote]

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 1, 2003, 6:08 am

Hammerstalker PE wrote:The thing Kyoukan DOESN'T get nor do any of you others is that you are NOT dealing with rational people here. WAKE THE FUCK UP!

Yes they should sit around and do nothing while the united states government continues to interfere with their culture and way of life up and including blowing up shit with cruise missiles, issue crippling economic sanctions and continue to mock their religion with military bases on land considered to be holy. Maybe they should write a stern letter to a random congressman instead.

It's funny because in your pea sized little kettleheads you all picture arabs as frothing crazies and zealots with AK-47s strapped to their backs and shaking their fists at a burning american flag simply because they are jealous of your air conditioned motor cars and freedom of speech. Most of the people that flew planes into the WTC were college educated and certainly clever enough to immigrate into the US right under the INS and take courses in how to fly a jumbo jet from the same organization that hundreds of pilots working in the industry today went to. They weren't mindless religious zealots screaming war cries to Allah. You don't follow a carefully planned act like flying jumbo jets filled with people because you are an irrational madman. The history of the world is absolutely filled with mindless destruction and hte mass killing of civilians. That doesn't in my mind justify more of it because you feel your cause is somehow more just or that you are getting some sort of revenge.

Saddam used Biological and other weapons of mass destruction on the Kurds and wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

The biological weapons the US gave him in the first place? Whoops! Looks like he is an insane madman now (I guess he wasn't before!) because he used the bio weapons on kurds instead of the communist backed Iranians. However, I am not even entirely certain from where in your little dried up brain you even pulled Saddam from in this discussion. Is he one of the infamous "them" that is being tossed around?

Kyoukan answer one question just one. If you see someone getting the shit kicked out of them do you:

A) Rush to their aid.
B) Call the police.
C) Walk on past and do nothing.

Hrmm answer carefully.

I choose D: Divide up Arab holy land and hand it over to a culture that hasn't been living there for hundreds and hundreds of years. Continue to support said culture for 50+ years giving it 100's of billions of dollars in welfare and military support including nuclear weapons that they will conveniently begin pointing at arabs. Pick sides in wars they are involved in and give them chemical and biological weapons, but also continue to extend said war by selling arms to the other side secretly in order to fund another rebellion in another muslim country. Continue to feed incredible amounts of wealth into a local royal family for permission to set up massive amounts of military hardware and personel on sanctified land despite overwhelming dissapproval. Also randomly fire tomahawk cruise missiles into "suspected weapons factories" every time I get caught by the media blowing my load (work with me here) on some fat intern's dress. Exploit natural resources the entire time by sucking out as much oil as I can while keeping the region de-stabilized enough so they can never set up a proper infrastructure to be able to sell their own natural resources without the assistance of my huge oil corporations. Then I would adopt a sad pupppy dog look and say "why me?" when said other culture tries to fuck with me back, and claim that my massive campaign of violent retaliation is somehow morally justified because they attacked me first.

I'll edit if I can think of anything else I'd do.

Every time I'm about to say something remotely political on this board I say to myself: Kyoukan, why do you do this? You know you are just going to end up banging your head on your keyboard and weeping for humanity and how fucking stupid it can get. Yet still I do it. I think I am beginning to understand why women keep returning to their abusive husbands. I still can't explain it, but I think I get it.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » January 1, 2003, 7:33 am

kyoukan type-R wrote: Most of the people that flew planes into the WTC were college educated and certainly clever enough to immigrate into the US right under the INS and take courses in how to fly a jumbo jet from the same organization that hundreds of pilots working in the industry today went to. They weren't mindless religious zealots screaming war cries to Allah. You don't follow a carefully planned act like flying jumbo jets filled with people because you are an irrational madman.

Kyoukan, it's my belief that no sane person could do that, and that only a madman would want to. For those people to live in the US (for several years in some cases) and see first hand what the average American person is like, and how little influence we have on the every day decisions the government makes, and still do what they did speaks to me of a religious zealotry unmatched by just about anyone.

A large part of the hatred arab nations has for the US is due to the affiliation we have with Israel. By default that makes the US their enemy, and I'm not convinced that anything else would truly make a difference, diplomatically speaking. So in essence, they hate us because we won't let them destroy Israel, and I'll not apologize for that. (Yes, there is more, I know that, but this seems to be the foundation of all anti-US sentiment in the Middle East.)

Also, I've have never once read anything suggesting that the US supplied biological or chemical weapons to Iraq, or to any other country for that matter. It's my understanding that most information relating to those types of weapons can be obtained very easily, including the internet. As you point out, many of the terrorist were college educated- my guess is that the oportunities to learn chemistry and biology are as abundant in the Middle East as they are in the west. That's ultimately the reason that we are so fearful of these weapons- they are so simple to create that any 2-bit dictator can do it.

And wrapping this up, I would still ask you why you feel a man like Saddam Hussein can be reasoned with diplomatically when he can commit genocide on the Kurds and invade Kuwait for no logical reason. What did Kuwait do to warrant an invasion from Iraq? It's only crime, as I see it, was having land and resources that Hussein wanted and being too weak to defend itself from him.

There can be a litany of excuses as to why there are people in the middle east that choose to hate the US- and most of those excuses end up being nothing more than self-serving tripe from whichever despot is grabbing for personal power.

PS- Why is it that the pacifists always end up being the snottiest, rudest people in an anti-war discussion? (And Kyoukan, that was not directed at you, believe it or not.)

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 1, 2003, 8:41 am

This is not an anti-war discussion Mr. Ed. This is a war discussion. We are in a state of War against Terrorism.

It pleases me so much to hear that too. War on Terrorism!!! Woohoo.

Nevermind that you can't really declare a war on any -ism. An -ism is an idea, you cannot destroy an idea with all the military might in the world. But what the hell, let's try! We got the guns to do it, eh?

I love this board, naivity runs rampant here.

Krewlade · Post by **Krewlade** » January 1, 2003, 8:57 am

lol dont argue with kyo anymore not worth the headache. She is one of those im never wrong chicks. Besides she doesnt run shit lol. She has no power or control over anything but her mouth and that runs rampant with antiamerican propaganda. your right kyo everything is our fault. Luckily i have come up with the solution. We send kyo to the middle east so she can give everyone flowers and tell them to be nice to each other. then they will all join hands and sing koom ba ya and put on puppet shows for each other and everyone lives happily ever after the end.

or we send her over there and they stone her to death in the street one or the other.

Neroon · Post by **Neroon** » January 1, 2003, 10:58 am

There's like three entirely different situations being thrown around in this thread (Isreal vs Arabs, US vs Iraq, US vs terrorists). That's why there is confusion all over the place, they are three distinct situations. You can't always relate one to the other, though they do have connections, naturally.

You can see a major similarity between the Isreali/Palastinian conflict, and the US vs Al Qaeda. Isreal is basically committing genocide against an entire race for the actions of a few (by comparison to the whole of the Palastinian population). Well, that and by spreading into their areas, thus displacing their population into camps. They will never be able to cleanse every terrorist, and the thousands of innocents they kill in the process create more terrorists in the survivors. It's an unending cycle.

This is precisely what we are doing/will be doing by using the exact same tactics on a global scale with Al Qaeda. Bush et al don't realize this, apparently. It's no wonder being the people in charge get there by being popular, not necessarily qualified. Some qualified people do filter in sometimes, but it's pretty rare.

Yes, we need to remove members of Al Qaeda from the gene pool. But, you have to be relentless in both your pursuit of them, and your care not to harm innocents. The minute you say "some innocents will be lost, we can't help that", you have already lost the battle.

Yes, terrorism has been around for thousands of years. But, people have been fighting it with brutal, uncaring (for innocent casualties) force for thousands of years, and it has NEVER worked. If something hasn't worked for thousands of years, you try a different approach, that's basic logic.

I'm not saying innocents won't be harmed, but you have to be relentless in your pursuit to prevent it. You have to keep the mindset that they won't, because you won't let them. If you can take out some senior terrorist leader, but would kill 1000 innocents in the area, you don't do it. You wait, you bide your time.

Same with Saddam. He is an evil person. He murdered his way to power, and murders anyone opposing him (including family members) to stay there. But, you don't remove him by starving his people, or bombing the crap out of his country (which only hurts his people). You beat Saddam by winning over his people. Not the generals who secretly oppose him, and are just as bad, but the common people who are no different than you or I.

If you can't take him out, you force him into submission in other ways. Starving his people with economic sanctions doesn't work. We know it doesn't work, it hasn't worked for the past 12 years, it's not going to work in the next 12. It won't work in N. Korea either, but Bush et al don't seem to realize that.

You have to create a situation, where it is more beneficial for the person/government to cooperate, than to not cooperate. One thing that comes to mind, is to create huge benefits to being part of the UN. Unlike now, when it is kind of a joke. Benefits that are only given while you are a member in good standing. If people are in violation of UN directives (Iraq, NK, oh yeah...and Isreal!), they lose those benefits.

Obviously, leaders only care about money, at least from what I've seen. So financial benefits are one avenue. Military security is another (country X doesn't need to escalate their defense if the UN swears to protect them from country Y). Then, you hit the population with the *real* benefits. Basically, anything that improves their lot in life, and their ability to maintain that lot themselves.

Oh well, it's not like any of the leaders really *want* peace anyway...

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 1, 2003, 1:00 pm

Xyun wrote:

The main problem in this debate is that most of you idiots are missing the main point of it. I have no problem with taking a hard line against problematic leaders and nations. I have no problem of trying to get rid of these people. What I have a problem with is the thousands or maybe even millions of innocent people that will die or get tortured in the process.

In this case the ends DO NOT justify the means.

There are better ways of doing things like this. Unfortunately, you brainless zombies elected<cough> a brainless zombie president, and he does not have the ability to do this job.

Xyun we had a debate not long ago where I respected your opinion on matters as you not only offered your side of the debate but plausible solutions. It this case all the rhetoric you command is nothing more than the blustering of an imbecile.

Calling people brainless zombies because we don't see the alternatives and yet offering none yourself makes you the leader of the mindless. Get off your fucking soapbox and lets hear your solutions for this complex matter. Start with the obvious, how the USA should change its foreign policy and what the consequences of your changes would lead to.

Until you do offer something more than infantile rantings your posts are not worth the effort I made to read them.

Cheers

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 1, 2003, 1:11 pm

kyoukan type-R wrote:Most of the people that flew planes into the WTC were college educated and certainly clever enough to immigrate into the US right under the INS and take courses in how to fly a jumbo jet from the same organization that hundreds of pilots working in the industry today went to. They weren't mindless religious zealots screaming war cries to Allah. You don't follow a carefully planned act like flying jumbo jets filled with people because you are an irrational madman.

Yes Kooky that is the sign of a well rounded mind, lets murder thousands of people by crashing large jets into the WTC during the work week.

Hilter planned the extermination of the jews, Stalin planned the extermination of millions more, Mao planned the eradication of all opponents in his own country. All very calculating men and all FUCKING indoctrinated with their own beliefs of how the world should be.

The fact that they planned this and executed it with cold hearted resolve does not make them rational. Rather they are the zealots you claim they are not.

Sometimes you make valid points but in this case you are as stunned as you are opinionated.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » January 1, 2003, 1:40 pm

They should have killed Saddam in 94. Although to be honest, his performance in the South Park movie was stellar.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » January 1, 2003, 2:54 pm

anyone that thinks the terrorism towards america, america's allies, and america's franchises isn't a DIRECT result of american foreign policy and actions is deluded.

Have other things to say, but this thread is splintering so bad it's hard to address.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 1, 2003, 3:03 pm

No matter what you do, say or think, the radical Muslims will not stop until they have killed every non-Muslim on the planet or force them to convert. Today they hate the US. If the US ceased to exist tomorrow, then they would move on to the next. If you think this is all about the United States helping Israel or some other ridiculous bullshit, then you are wrong. It is religious fanatics trying their best to gather support and momentum. It will not stop. If we go away, then it will be someone else. Most of you are just so unaffected that you could never fathom this.

Teurde, you think you are impartial and neutral and giving unbiased observations. You can do this because you live in an area where nothing will happen to you or your family because of terrorists. Well let me explain something that you tend to be missing. I do live where terorists could strike. Not one single person in my family has ever done anything to a Muslim, Iraqi, Al-Queida or anyone remotely close to them. Yet I would have to sit here and hope every single day that one of them does not choose to kill me or every person I love. And they would do this why? Because I live in a country they do not like. I worship in a religion different to theirs. They would kill any person in America for no reason other than they dislike the idea of our country. How should that make me feel? Can I or any person or group of people in America make this go away? Nope...it never will. We are the only country that can or will try to keep peace in the Middle East...and for that we are hated. If it comes to my family or them.....then I hope they like their 100 virgins.

There have been wars there for 2000+ years. Do you fathom that? 2000 years they have fought for the sake of fighting. The problem is, today they have weapons that will kill hundreds of thousands and threaten life across the planet. They are not using sticks and rocks or rifles now. Mass destruction. If it were still sticks and rocks, no one would care. They threaten the entire planet. Nuclear war in the Middle East would destroy life as you know it. So should we disarm the craziest people who have nuclear weapons? Well duh. So we take up the bulk of the world's work and then take shit from across the globe for it. Fuck you and your country I would say. Lets see Canada get off their ass and go work some goddamn peace proposals over there for a change.

Jugata · Post by **Jugata** » January 1, 2003, 3:37 pm

I understand your points Kilmoll, but I try to look at it from both sides. I don't think the muslim world would have such a problem with American ideals if America didnt help Israel whom I refuse to believe is an innocent state as portrayed by CNN.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 1, 2003, 4:16 pm

Well said Kilmoll. I am a Canadian and have relatives throughout the states including my twin brother Hammerstalker. Unfortunately the job of peacekeeping has fallen to the USA.

Teurde you say that Israel is not the innocent victim that CNN portrays them to be. What then should be done? You and Kooky and people like you seem to think the world should turn its back on Israel and let history take its course. That my friend is tantamount to being a partner in slaughter so until you have a better proposal I suggest my fellow Canadians STFU. Bleh I am done with this topic.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 1, 2003, 4:47 pm

TeurdeCT wrote:I don't care what weapon it is. What gives the US the right to have such weapons and other countries not?

North Korea invaded south korea. Aggressive regime, no weapons of mass distruction for you. Iraq invades Kuwait, aggressive regime, no weapons of mass destruction for you either. These are the reasons why. Your government acts irresponsible and invades other countries for no reason, then that kinda makes the rest of the world wary of you getting weapons of mass destruction, because you have demonstrated irresponsibility with invasions already. This pretty much answers your questions.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 1, 2003, 7:18 pm

Yes because clearly the only country that can be trusted with nuclear weapons is the only country to have used them... twice... on civilians.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » January 1, 2003, 7:55 pm

Toker and Teurde, you're both right and both wrong. I'm another Canadian with family and friends in the United States. I am not a total fan of their foreign policy but as has been stated in other threads, its THEIR foreign policy, designed to protect THEIR interests and citizens.

The UN created Israel in the 40s, not the USA. This, to the Palestinians, was exactly the same as if the RCMP were to knock on your door and say that an act of parliament has been passed that has removed your title to your home, and given it to someone else who lost theirs in a fire... and you have 24 hrs to GTFO. Now Israel didn't really demand this, per se, but in the glut of post-holocaust guilt that hit the western world in particular, not much thought was given to the people who lived here for the past couple hundred (or thousand) years. Israel was immediately declared war upon, by the Arab world who objected to thousands of Palestinian refuges being foisted on them. Enter the Cold War and the "anything you do, I'm gonna do the opposite" of the USA and USSR... ad nauseum.

Now the USA has shown a dogged loyalty their old Cold War friend. The Arabs think this is wrong, especially as 50 some odd years later you still have dispossessed Palestinians (mostly Muslim) who have no place to call home (despite efforts to create a Palestinian homeland and have a "former" terrorist rule it). The USA has tried to broker peace deals between the sides (it was Jimmy Carter and his people who were able to get Begin and Sadat to sign the first Arab-Israeli peace treaty between Egypt and Israel) but hardliners on both sides refuse to budge off their pedastals of intolerance.

What do you do if your are the President of the USA? The US has been involved but this is not a problem of entirely their own making. The options are now:

a) let a nuclear armed Israel fend for themselves, (and partially appease the Arab World with disastrous political consequence with some very affluent and public people at home)
b) come down against the same nuclear armed Israel (and gain more brownie points with the Arabs and lose even more with the same portion of your own population mentioned above),
c)try and broker some kind of peace agreement that no one wants UNLESS the other side totally capitulates
d) continue to support your old ally and hope that the Arab World buckles under the unspoken threat of your economic and military muscle.

Nice choices, especially when you add in that a very large portion of the world's oil supply is currently produced in the region. Idiots like our own retarded moron, Mr Chretien, who comment that "this is a problem of the USA's own making" are spouting half-truths and dodging the fact the their predecessors helped create and propogate this mess over the past 50+ years, without being able to help come up with a solution.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 1, 2003, 11:35 pm

Yup, and since that example was set on Japan on what can be done with them, they have not been used since. You can thank us now. Pretty silly remark I just made eh? Now you know how I felt reading your comment.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 2, 2003, 12:17 am

Probably the most concise post on this whole thread is the one made by Wulfran.

Drewno · Post by **Drewno** » January 2, 2003, 9:10 am

No matter what you do, say or think, the radical Muslims will not stop until they have killed every non-Muslim on the planet or force them to convert. Today they hate the US. If the US ceased to exist tomorrow, then they would move on to the next. If you think this is all about the United States helping Israel or some other ridiculous bullshit, then you are wrong. It is religious fanatics trying their best to gather support and momentum. It will not stop. If we go away, then it will be someone else. Most of you are just so unaffected that you could never fathom this.

You are wrong.
The only thing Radical muslims have against us is the way our women act as compared to theirs. Why do they hate us? In direct contradiction to what you said - it's because we are supporting israel. Have you ever ever EVER EVER fucking heard a terrorist say "Convert to islam or pay the consequences!"??? NO! YOu never hear them say that bullshit, all you hear is: "Stop supporting our enemies or we will make your people suffer!".
Muslims and Jews - That is one bad fucking combination. That is why there is conflict in the middle east. That is why the side we don't support hates us.

I don't mean to sound Hitleresque here but you might also note something else....A very very VERY healthy portion of the wealthiest people in our country are jewish...We help the jews in the middle east...Not a coincidence.

WrenASance · Post by **WrenASance** » January 2, 2003, 9:49 am

While Im sure we can all agree that the terrorist attacks were horrible, and have changes all of our lives, carpet bombing countries isnt going to really help anything. The survivors of any kind of campaign against Iraq will surely be just as pissed off at the American aggressors as the old terrorists were. So what ground have we gained? The question which always follows this is, "So then what DO we do, <insert insult here>." Well, for one, we could all agree that NO country on this planet should have the arbitrary power to kill hundreds of thousands of people with one push of a button. Period. If you really want to kill some mother fuckers that badly, why dont you go do it yourself, face to face. Lots harder now isnt it? To be fair, if I had lost a loved one to a terrorist attack, or for that matter any kind of "unfair" situation, I would want to do something to "get even" with the perpetrators...but is blowing up that person and their entire family going to stop the killing of more people on my side? I think its foolish to think so. Look at where thats getting the Israelis and the Palestinians. Someone made a good point about the US being the only country to ever use the atomic bomb on another country...the vast majority of people who died in that attack were civilians, no doubt some of whom may have been anti-war, or even pro-USA. Guess they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Point is, innocent people always pay the biggest price in any way, no matter the time period. There is no way you can justify the killing of children who cant even speak, let alone voice something that even remotely resembles a threat.

Peace does sound like a pipe dream, but thats only because people give up striving for it. Peace is an ideal, but when no one believes in ideals any more, where goes the movement towards it? The peace process is one of momentum...its got to be gathered, and sometimes its slowly. I for one have the patience to at least try it...or give it a chance. I choose not to hate. I choose not to perpetuate the sins of all of our forefathers, that of judging who may live and who may not. Thats not for us to decide. Am I bleeding heart, a Canadian, a Muslim, or a Jew? Does it matter? I dont care who is on the other side of this screen, or on the other side of this planet, we all deserve an equal chance at life. Saddam Hussein may choose to kill his own people, and for that we can be angry, but dont forget how many people are killed by the Israelis in retaliation, and theyre the allies of the US. Hypocricy?

Thats a lot of verbal blah, and perhaps someone will actually read it, and maybe think on it. Itll probably be flamed at, just like all the other messages here, but thats OK, Ive said my piece (peace) and probably wont see them anyway.

Peace and love.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 2, 2003, 10:12 am

Calling people brainless zombies because we don't see the alternatives and yet offering none yourself makes you the leader of the mindless. Get off your fucking soapbox and lets hear your solutions for this complex matter. Start with the obvious, how the USA should change its foreign policy and what the consequences of your changes would lead to.

No sir, the leader of the mindless is in fact Dubya Bush. I've already offered alternatives but they went unheard.

The first step and the most important one in my opinion is to do whatever it takes to decrease enemies. Terrorism is not something you fight, it is something you try to prevent.

I know this is real outlandish but here's an idea. STOP FUCKING KILLING PEOPLE! Stop supporting Israeli actions that obviously violate UN law. Hmmm...

I'm not really here to offer alternatives. I'm just pointing out things that I think are blatantly wrong in every sense of the word. Wrong is wrong no matter what spin you put on it. Revenge, prevention, power struggle, or what have you, killing/torturing innocent people is still wrong.

Anyway, I don't read/post here because I have some deluded sense of changing anything in the world through this forum. I come here because it is so much fun to read the mindless dribble that spews forth from the mouths of morons such as yourself. It is my own form of entertainment. It makes me feel good about myself.

So....until then, our governments will make sure we have a decent supply of oil. If that means we have to wage battle against a scummy, backwards, nation of people who opress women, beat anyone who dares speak against the government, then so be it.

People like you just fuel my fire.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 2, 2003, 10:28 am

I would agree with you a bit about Israel. Israel needs to back the fuck up and adhere to the peace as much as the Palestinians. The U.N. and the U.S. in particular should lay down the law and let some things be known up front. If Israel continued agressions after a treaty had been laid down that they would be given no support and the U.N. would come in and lay down the law. If the Arab countries continued to attack, then the U.N. would come in and do the same. End of story. Whoever breaks the peace gets obliterated. Which side do you think would break it first?

Of course the Arab people would still be hostile with the U.S. even if they were bipartisan. They need an enemy or they are not happy. They know nothing but war in that region. It is the only thing that I think really makes them happy.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 2, 2003, 10:33 am

OMG a semi-intelligent post!!

Then you followed it with this trite shit.

Of course the Arab people would still be hostile with the U.S. even if they were bipartisan. They need an enemy or they are not happy.

Defeatist way of looking at it. Stereotyping people gets you nowhere. Start by being bipartisan, setting rules, and then enforcing them in order to stabalize the region. Then you worry about those who break the rules.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 2, 2003, 10:45 am

That is not trite sir. It is a fact. I am a realist and I understand that nothing we do will change their attitudes. If it were up to me, I would have jerked Sharon's leash hard enough to break his neck when we were talking peace recently and he invaded the Arafat compound because of a suicide bomber. Peace there will only come when both sides allow it.

The bottom line is that everyone in that region needs to know that they will be invaded by the rest of the U.N. if any of them make aggressive actions towards another. The bottom line should be that anyone that gets out of line will be taken out and the land comes under U.N. control. If that means they lose their holy land or oil or sheep breeding...it doesn't matter. Game times are over.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » January 2, 2003, 11:21 am

Teurde you say that Israel is not the innocent victim that CNN portrays them to be. What then should be done?

Here's a short list for starters:
1) Comply with all UN resolutions which Israel is currently breaking.
2) Stop building settlements in the illegally occupied Palastinian areas.
3) Dismantle such settlements that all ready exist.
4) Dismantle your illegal nuclear weapons program.
5) Enter into meaningful discussions with your neighbour states or their representatives if they refuse to deal direct.
6) Stop saying "we will not talk peace until the terrorism stops" as this immediately gives any idiot with a gun/grenade power of veto over such process (we all know you are using this as an excuse cos you dont really want to stop).
7) Stop the culture of incitement and provocation that has infected both sides.

No matter what you do, say or think, the radical Muslims will not stop until they have killed every non-Muslim on the planet or force them to convert. Today they hate the US. If the US ceased to exist tomorrow, then they would move on to the next. If you think this is all about the United States helping Israel or some other ridiculous bullshit, then you are wrong. It is religious fanatics trying their best to gather support and momentum. It will not stop. If we go away, then it will be someone else. Most of you are just so unaffected that you could never fathom this.

Or alternately:
No matter what you do, say or think, the Americans will not stop until they have killed every non-American on the planet or force them to convert. Today they hate the Arabs. If the Arabs ceased to exist tomorrow, then they would move on to the next. If you think this is all about the Arabs being jealous of our money or some other ridiculous bullshit, then you are wrong. It is imperialist fanatics trying their best to gather support and momentum. It will not stop. If the ragheads go away, then it will be someone else. Most of you are just so unaffected that you could never fathom this.

See how easy that was? One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Anyone who thinks this isn't a direct result of the US's policies in the middle east and regarding Israel in particular is deluded to the point of idiocy.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 2, 2003, 11:28 am

You know what, this is really an issue of a convert or die religion versus religious tolerance.

At base the problem is that religion itself is a childishness that the human race needs to grow the fuck up and get over. There is no god or God or Jahweh or Allah, there is just people using it as an excuse to kill other people.

If you are Canadian and do not like what the US does, then your BS posts here have no value whatsoever, get yourself along with some like minded friends to get YOUR government to object, gather and protest at a US Embassy etc. Posting here has all the value of telling people how a quarterback should have done things on the morning after the game.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 2, 2003, 11:49 am

Xyun wrote:OMG a semi-intelligent post!!

Then you followed it with this trite shit.

Of course the Arab people would still be hostile with the U.S. even if they were bipartisan. They need an enemy or they are not happy.
Defeatist way of looking at it. Stereotyping people gets you nowhere. Start by being bipartisan, setting rules, and then enforcing them in order to stabalize the region. Then you worry about those who break the rules.

Who then sir would enforce these rules? The very second that a judgement from the UN went against Palestine or any of the arrayed Arab nations the perception would be more jewish love from the USA merely because the UN is in the USA.

I say the same thing to VnTanc.
Also where do the demands stop? Disarm Israel, withdraw from Palistinian lands etc. Do you honestly believe anything short of the removal of Israel from the middle east will placate these people. Be assured that reprisals of some sort would be required and then we are back into the terrorist attacks.

Some of you have espoused the notion that a UN peacekeeping force be stationed there to deal with problems. This is merely replacing the US military bases with a world force which to the fanatics is still occupation of holy lands. Still waiting on the genius pool to come up with something that would actually work with these sane, peace loving terrorists groups.

Solutions.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 2, 2003, 11:50 am

Wow, ok after reading 4 pages of this thread I feel like I want to take a shovel to half of your heads. Kyoukan, I like you. But your bleeding heart liberalism is killing me. The fact of the matter is - United States of America has by presidential decree become the "police" of the civilized world. The UN was originally suppossed to be this but unfortunately they have shown to be inefficient in this manner. Policing the world is both a bane and a boon for the United States. True, a policy of isolationsism would be grand. The idea of "It doesn't affect me" is all good and fine until you watch 2 planes crash into the Twin towers in NYC on CNN and realize that "hey...what did they do". Being Pragmatic about world issues is all fine and good but when you get into the realm of "everyone should leave everyone alone" you are just being ignorant. Do you even know WHY the united states involves itself in world dealings like this? If not let me clue you in. In the year 1937, the nation of Poland was invaded by a charismatic madman's army of fanatics bent on world-wide domination. By 1941 this madman's army had not only conquered 85% of Europe but also had managed to annihilate about 3 million jews. So...after sitting back on their heels doing nothing for 3 years the United States had their first Terrorist attack. It was called Pearl Harbor. Remember that? It's a holiday, no...a memorial of when the United States was first attacked in the early morning by Kamikazi pilots bent on crippling our Naval Fleet that had no involvement in their war aside from supplying food/water/provisions/ammunition to the Western Front. Oh wait...Canada wasn't affected because they were neutral just like the US...
After our first Terrorist attack on US Soil happened, what did the US do? We mobilized and helped the Allied Forces not only rid the world of a manacial-homicidal genocist but also unleashed upon the word TWO terrors we all hope to NEVER see unleashed again. An Atomic Bomb. Now, I don't know about you, I guess living in your little bubble safe and secure under the blanket our Military provides for the Western Hemisphere gives you a lot of room to think and ponder and talk out your ass. But all in all, your freedom is provided for you because the United States GETS involved.
Now how does this affect us in the Middle East and Korea? Simple. I know I don't ever ever ever want to see a weapon of mass destruction unleashed upon the world in my lifetime or my children's lifetime. I agree with Kilmoll 100% - fear of war is not a huge concern but it will always be lurking underneath the surface - always there but not always coming to the front. Because we all know it is out there, we just don't know when.
Also, involving ourselves in world affairs is GOOD for the United States. Why? It creates jobs to build weapons, grow food, transport, equip our armed forces, develop new technologies. It also creates a problem because we fear retaliation and attacks upon our own soil. But you can read this and wonder how does this relate to the United states taking prisoners off American soil and torturing them? It doesn't but too much bleeding heart liberalism this early in the morning just pisses my Card Carrying Member of the NRA Conservative Republican Southern Ass enough to want to shove my size 13 boot right up your ass. Oh and as far as torture goes, the Government is going to do whatever they can to get secrets out of an enemy. Just because CNN reported on it doesn't mean its new. I can guarantee they have been doing it for years and wont stop now. People are stupid, we can whine and bitch and moan about human rights but guess what...that sometimes doesn't get the job done. Sometimes it takes us flaying the skin off a terrorists right arm to find the location of a Nuclear weapon's silo to ensure we can not have that fucking thing blow up in Chicago. It may not be the right way but by God they would do the same or worse to us given the chance and they would most likely use religious zeal as their excuse. Do I like the thought of someone being tortured? No. Do I feel it is neccessary sometimes to ensure the sanctity of the United States and the continuation of the freedom I enjoy as a United States citizen? Yes. And does it mean I give a shit about being flamed for saying that? Absolutely not.

Oh and as far as paragraphs go...shut up I don't feel like searching for a spot to use for identation of a paragraph. Just mark it down as a train of thought without being proofread. Im a college graduate with 2 degree's, I paid enough money for my education to where I can use poor grammar if I dam well please =D.
Have a nice day.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » January 2, 2003, 12:13 pm

/sigh rangers

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 2, 2003, 12:46 pm

The only thing Radical muslims have against us is the way our women act as compared to theirs. Why do they hate us? In direct contradiction to what you said - it's because we are supporting israel.

Ok, now I see some of the reason for the opposing views.

You haven't got a goddamned clue what radical muslims think of the United States.

The Great Satan ring a bell? The radicals who hate(and there are radicals on our side as well, no denying it) us do so for a shitpot full of reasons.

As for Israel, she is the worst damned ally we have ever had. Unfortunately, there are only a couple choices at the moment:

1. Support Israel until they drive the Palestinians off the planet.
2. Support the Palestinians until they do the same to the Israelites.
3. Draw a ten mile-wide line between the two, patrol it and shoot on sight anyone crossing it.

Nice options, eh?

For those of you who say we shouldn't retaliate because we piss off too many people, put that in the context of a bully stealing your lunch money every day. Because he has frends you should keep forking the cash over to avoid pissing them off, right?

Sheep.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 2, 2003, 1:05 pm

Well said Sylvos.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » January 2, 2003, 1:12 pm

Sylvos wrote: too much bleeding heart liberalism this early in the morning just pisses my Card Carrying Member of the NRA Conservative Republican Southern Ass enough to want to shove my size 13 boot right up your ass.

/golfclap

Ninan · Post by **Ninan** » January 2, 2003, 1:14 pm

Ok having read this thread through I will make a point or two.

First point. Not one of us on this board have a clue as to why the US gets involved in world politics to begin with. We have 0 facts to go on and simply put if you believe what you see in print or on television is fact then you are incredibly gullible. News ladies and gentlemen sells product or acyually not news but sensationalism. Ever wonder why you never see newspapers, magizines, or television shows dedicated to the good deed doers of the world? It's because they all went broke trying, nobody cares of the good deeds we do, we only care to see murder, mayhem, and crisis due to our own human nature.

Second point. It's easy to point at the US and say we deserve this mass destruction for our worldly actions. We are the bad guys, shame on us. Fact is Iraq wants our help to rid them from a murders dictatorship. The terrorists are not the rule of thumb in Iraq. Iraqians are more pissed off at the US because we haven't stepped in before now to free them from Sudam's reign of terror.
Part B. I wonder what human rights the Jews received from Hitler? I wonder what human rights the PoW's from Vietnam received from the North Vietmanese? Some are still imprisoned today. You all speak of brutal interrogation as you are knowledgeable on the subject, when in fact you are clueless. My opinion is I have no facts to base opinions on except brutal treatment of any human life is wrong. If the world focussed on what it could accomplish together there would be no poverty, babies starving, homeless people, war and in general a total euforic society. Fact is that will never be the case for we as people don't have the intelligence to see we are self destructing. Put 2 people on earth alone and there will still be fighting between them. Why? Human nature and greed.

So this leaves us with a do the best we can while we are in this world mode. Deal with the terroism the way terroist deal with you. You do not bring a knife to a gun fight and last very long. That's why the US is in the position to try and help others that ASK us to step in. We carry a pretty big fuckin gun. In any war, and believe me life is war, there will always be casualties. Yes we were the only country to ever use nuclear destruction on another race. We were at war in a world war and I refuse to blame Truman for making the decision he made, the choices then were simple either invade Japan to end the war and lose estimated a million soldiers or give them a chance to surrender. They chose to ignore the latter and Truman opted for the solution saving the US from as much life loss as possible, not to mention our attitude towards Japan was not the best after the surprise attack on Hawaii at Pearl Harbor already killing thousands of unsuspecting citizens. It not only worked, but has been a deterent to any future use of weapons of mass destruction ever since. Maybe Truman saved the world from extinction? Ever think about that?

and.....Teurde as far as the oil supplies goes, did you know the US has enough natural oil reserves to last us 200 years at our current rate of useage, not counting untapped supplies currently not tapped into yet? So in reality what do the Arabs hold we really need anyway? We deal with them on imports simply for world economics.

I for one am glad I am ignorant of the real facts for I am not sure I could handle seeing brutality as the norm of daily survival. I am also glad I live in the US and can travel from border to border without hassle. I can burn the American flag in Washington and not be hassled. I can question our own actions w/o being hassled. I enjoy living in the US because it's the closest thing the world knows about real freedom and must be protected at all cost.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » January 2, 2003, 2:06 pm

I say the same thing to VnTanc.
Also where do the demands stop? Disarm Israel, withdraw from Palistinian lands etc. Do you honestly believe anything short of the removal of Israel from the middle east will placate these people. Be assured that reprisals of some sort would be required and then we are back into the terrorist attacks.

The list was in reply to a question regarding Israel. I have a similar list ready for the arab peoples of the area but nobody asked to see that.
Anyway of the 7 points on my list the first 3 were all etchnically the same seeing as the actions listed in 2&3 are mandated by the UN but ignored by Israel. The last 2-3 are just common sense to anyone really interested in a peace process; something I sincerely doubt when it comes to Sharon.

The whole area is a fuckup stretching back to the break-up of the Ottoman Empire (thx Voro) and made worse by the imposition of the state of Israel on the region after WW2. When people say "The UN" they may as well talk about the permenant members of the security council as they have a veto power and he who can destroy a thing controls it. If you can destroy any resolution of the rest of the world I think that puts you in charge. Back after WW2 the predominantly white, western members of this council imposed the creation of Israel on a region implacably opposed to it. But of surely the white man running roughshod over the concerns of Arabs without a thought to the long-term consequences is the kind of action consigned to history with the end of the 20th Century, right? Ha.

Kylere is right on the other thread where he says the concept of religion has been used to fool us into going to war with each other too often. I take it a little further though and believe that the concept of 'patriotism' and the 'nation state' have been used for similar purposes (while simultaneously preserving the wealth and power of the ruling elite - all part of the same deception).

I sincerely believe that ordinary people the world over want the same thing: the chance to live their lives in peace and raise their families in relative comfort and security. The rest is bullshit and if you look hard enough you will find someone or some group that will gain from any strife and conflict. When you find who will benefit you find the reason why it started.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 2, 2003, 4:35 pm

sigh, Sylvos. Your post will be skipped over and you will be flamed. It's the Canadian way. I have tried telling them exactly what you said many times, they do not want to learn from past mistakes of *minding our own business*. They would rather point out that Hitler was a different situation, or we pushed his buttons, or something crazy like that.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 2, 2003, 4:38 pm

where are we on this thread, by the way?

havent read any of it, but i was just curious if anybody has said "i dont care if we roast all them sand jims yet!"

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 2, 2003, 4:49 pm

Tis ok Krimson, I do not mind.
People are always on the high ground when its not in their backyard.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 2, 2003, 7:02 pm

Go be world's policemen in a country without any fucking oil to exploit for a change then. You must think I am stupid trying to feed me some line about how altruistic you are being saving the world from an evil madman. I can name 10 countries in Africa with worse dictators than Saddam; responsible for a lot more deaths. Not to mention the DPRK, ruled by probably the most evil totalitarian bastard on the planet and has already threatened to start lobbing nukes at neighboring countries. And unlike Iraq they brag about their nuclear weapons program and openly threaten other countries, instead of having one that you can't seem to be able to even locate the existence of.

Buy hey, if you want to don the cape and tights and pretend that you are being a hero to the world then be my guest. Just don't try to shovel it at me, because I don't buy it.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » January 2, 2003, 7:17 pm

Do you think the US is just ignoring North Korea? Absolutely not. You're a fucking idiot if you do. But since we know they have nukes and not just attempting to build them, and those nukes can actually hit the US (alaska), you have to take a different tact.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 2, 2003, 7:20 pm

Can my cape be red and black?
I really like those colors.
btw South Africa...hahahaaahahahhaha
When you get a clue about the "nuclear power" they preside over and how they are kept in check every day by a United States Armed Tank lumbering through their backyard then you can attempt to convince with your cut and run tactics at debating. When trying to prove a point, you dont jump from point a to point z. Also when blatently hit with a concrete reason or point of view - trying to attack it when there is no point to only makes us sit back and laugh. You are a wonderful debater Kyoukan but try to keep all your facts strait, arguing for the sake of not wanting to be proven wrong never really accomplishes anything but sheer mockery from your conversational adversaries. I try not to flame on these sort of posts because there is no real point to. What's the point of calling someone a fucktard or dipshit or insulting their intelligence when the agressor is not always in the right. I call it High School Popularity Debate Team-itis. Party on Wayne.
now afk to go like hang my gun rack or whatever im supposed to have for living in the south and believing in my right to bear arms or whatever.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 2, 2003, 7:56 pm

South Africa? Right to bear arms? Now you've lost me because I haven't said anything about that. Kyoukan going from point A to point Z illogically? Yeah okay whatever dude!

I am not the one who brought up Iraq and all this other stupid bullshit on this thread.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 2, 2003, 8:53 pm

put that in the context of a bully stealing your lunch money every day. Because he has frends you should keep forking the cash over to avoid pissing them off, right?

Lunch money = Oil

The U.S. is the bully.

I can't decide who is dumber, you or Midnyte.

I used to think that the U.N. was ineffective cause the U.S. constantly imposes its will on the U.N. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » January 2, 2003, 9:09 pm

If we knew what we were doing, we would let N Korea alone. I agree that no country should have them, but they do. Hell, we have shit loads of them. Why can we point the finger at other countries for having them when we have a fucking stock pile of them. I see the point in Iraq, because he probably will try to use them. But I don't see the point anywhere, and I mean anywhere else. We don't need to be stirring up shit with yet another country and creating WW3. Because if we do fuck with them, then that is what will happen.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » January 2, 2003, 9:11 pm

Yes, let North Korea alone. Not like they would release nukes in South Korea or anything. Noooo...

VeeshanVault

CNN reports on captured Terrorists..

Thoughts