Supporting the troops?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 4:07 am

This place has been a bit dead recently so I thought I'd throw a poo into the hornets nest and ask the following question.

Why is it necessary to support the troops?

I don't support the troops and I'll explain why.

As you all know, I find the Iraq war to be an abhorrent disgusting opportunistic waste of time, money and life. For this reason alone, it is completely illogical for anyone of this way of thinking to support the troops.

Add the fact that it is the troops that are responsible for at the most conservative of guesses, a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi deaths, and are the very men and women who willingly perpetuate a war based on lies that has destroyed a country far more than even its tyrannical dictator could have ever dreamed of and, to me and many others, it leads to the conclusion that these would be the last people I would ever support.

There is an argument I see doing the rounds that they are "fighting for our freedom", or "just doing their job". These are nonsense reasons to support anyone. First of all, they aren't fighting for our freedom at all, they are fighting a unilaterally decided war that has actually endangered and heightened the threat of extremist muslim terrorism in our own backyards. To me, it really doesn't count for anything that their intentions were good, because their intentions were stupid, and have proven to be dangerous, as was told to them before this happened. This isn't WW2.

There is a certain nobility to being a soldier I admit, but that nobility goes out the window when you do what the Army of the Coalition of the Willing has done in Iraq.

The "just doing their job" thing is equally irrelevant, no one forced them to do this job in the first place, and no one ever mentions that we should "support our retail workers", or our workers in McDonalds who aren't actually murdering people for no reason (except in cases of food poisoning.) Responsibility for being involved in a war that has no use but to enrich the few, whilst endangering many more, is not nullified simply because "they are just doing their job."

If, in the case of Iraq, this is their job, then their job is needlessly murderous, and is again absolutely no reason to ever support them.

Obviously I don't wish for any soldiers to die, because I do understand that there are families, loved ones, children and countries left with dead young people, but um....they did sort of ask for it like. The Iraqi's didn't. Frankly I have more sympathy for the actual Iraqi victims, not the ones who perpetrated the crime and then got killed.

Not a single candidate in the run up to the next US election is prepared to question this statement, yet where I live the whole "support the troops" thing is seen as very strange, and frankly a little sickening given the nature of the last few years of American decision making in regards to the "war on terror."

And no, you can't be against the war yet support the troops, its completely ridiculous and a massive hypocrisy to claim that.

So why is "supporting the troops" considered such holy territory (seemingly) in the US, when the lives of Iraqi's are absolutely fucking irrelevant?

It seems like a disgusting double standard.

Discuss.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 10, 2007, 7:41 am

It's called indoctrination. Thx, next question.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 10, 2007, 9:06 am

Troops make zero policy decisions. They go where they are told and do what they are told or they are court martialed. The troops had nothing to do with this decision. This discussion has taken place several times and if you did not understand the first time, you never will. Maybe in 10 years you might understand it.

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » August 10, 2007, 10:08 am

The majority joined the military before Bush decided to send them to war. They joined to serve and protect their country, they joined to improve their economic situation, they joined for a million different reasons.
And now they are fighting a war that they don't all agree should have been started, but if you read what they have to say they believe they are doing some good in Iraq and Afghanistan for the people and want to finish their mission.
The military says it's ok to kill, which is supposedly an aberration to our culture, but as long as people continue to kill, oppress and terrorize other people there will be a need for the military. When you figure out how to make everyone live together in a big love ball, let me know.
I don't approve of war, or the way the govt uses the military in all situations, but I support the troops and their families who make huge sacrifices. They are just like me.

Drolgin Steingrinder · August 10, 2007, 10:15 am

The main problem is on both sides of the aisle.

There are people who do not understand that it's possible to be against the occupation/war/invasion without being against the individual troops.
There are people equating the individual soldiers with the 'war effort'.
There are people who blindly rally behind their commander in chief and turn the discussion into a 'you're either with us or against us' type of demagogery.

It's a question of talking past each other.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 10, 2007, 10:57 am

Nick,
Like kilmoll said they have no choice but to do what they are told or they will be court martialed. And if all of the people currently there doing their job hadn't signed up, there would have been a draft and the people that got drafted would be doing the exact same thing. That is just the way it is, whether you agree with it or not is beside the point.

Do you think the marines in Vietnam WANTED to wipe out villages full of people? Although what is happening now is a different situation, there have been plenty of soldiers in plenty of wars in the past that have had to do things that they did not agree with or did not want to do. If the soldiers could just pick and choose what they wanted to do, the U.S. probably would have been gone, or completely changed quite a while ago.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » August 10, 2007, 12:54 pm

I dont think you really hate the soldiers.

I think youre afraid that if you don't hate the soldiers that it might mean that you support the cause in some way, and you're incapable of escaping that thought. I'm sure that you are aware that its illogical reasoning

Mak · Post by **Mak** » August 10, 2007, 1:01 pm

The Real Iraq Body Count, 2006

16,791 = Iraqi civilians killed last year by Islamic Terrorists.

225 = Iraqi civilians killed collaterally in incidents involving Americans and Islamic Terrorists.

Iraqis aren't dying from war. They are being murdered by Islamic terrorists.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 1:18 pm

cadalano wrote:I dont think you really hate the soldiers.

I think youre afraid that if you don't hate the soldiers that it might mean that you support the cause in some way, and you're incapable of escaping that thought. I'm sure that you are aware that its illogical reasoning

What is this bullshit?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 10, 2007, 1:21 pm

Mak wrote:The Real Iraq Body Count, 2006

16,791 = Iraqi civilians killed last year by Islamic Terrorists.

225 = Iraqi civilians killed collaterally in incidents involving Americans and Islamic Terrorists.

Iraqis aren't dying from war. They are being murdered by Islamic terrorists.

People that make the argument you are disputing will find a way to turn that into our fault anyhow, even though it would have happened whether or not we ever set foot in Iraq.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 1:25 pm

Umm, how exactly would it have happened if you hadn't gone into Iraq?

Also Mak, your source?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 10, 2007, 1:29 pm

The U.S. going to Iraq wasn't the beginning of terrorism. We can argue till eternity that the terrorists may or may not have been as inflamed if we weren't there and the death count may have been lower - but the bottom line is these people have been murdering their own across the entire middle east for time out of mind and will continue to do so long after the U.S. has left Iraq.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » August 10, 2007, 1:31 pm

Nick wrote:
cadalano wrote:I dont think you really hate the soldiers.

I think youre afraid that if you don't hate the soldiers that it might mean that you support the cause in some way, and you're incapable of escaping that thought. I'm sure that you are aware that its illogical reasoning
What is this bullshit?

/sockpuppets

i dunno, i just thought i'd give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're being naive and emotional instead of just regular stupid

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 1:32 pm

When in the history of Iraq were hundreds of people a month being killed by islamic extremists in the run up to the Iraq war? As you are perfectly aware, this only started happening on such a scale after the invasion. Trying to deny that is like calling black white.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 1:33 pm

cadalano wrote:
Nick wrote:
cadalano wrote:I dont think you really hate the soldiers.

I think youre afraid that if you don't hate the soldiers that it might mean that you support the cause in some way, and you're incapable of escaping that thought. I'm sure that you are aware that its illogical reasoning
What is this bullshit?
/sockpuppets

i dunno, i just thought i'd give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're being naive and emotional instead of just regular stupid

Durrr

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » August 10, 2007, 1:41 pm

uhh....

jingle jingle?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 1:43 pm

Go and shit up some other thread if all you're capable of doing is being a wanker.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » August 10, 2007, 1:48 pm

Nick wrote:Umm, how exactly would it have happened if you hadn't gone into Iraq?

Also Mak, your source?

http://iraqbodycount.net/database/

If you actually look at who's being killed, and by whom, and with what, you can easily see that if Islamic terrorists weren't still living in the 5th century and using 5th century methods, nobody would be dying at all in Iraq.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 10, 2007, 1:58 pm

cadalano wrote:uhh....

jingle jingle?

Sorry nick but this made me laugh. Hard.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 10, 2007, 3:23 pm

Mak wrote:
Nick wrote:Umm, how exactly would it have happened if you hadn't gone into Iraq?

Also Mak, your source?
http://iraqbodycount.net/database/

If you actually look at who's being killed, and by whom, and with what, you can easily see that if Islamic terrorists weren't still living in the 5th century and using 5th century methods, nobody would be dying at all in Iraq.

Stop with the facts and logic. They hurt the slanted vision of many on this board.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 3:36 pm

Yes it is a fact that Islamic extremists are involved in a Civil War in Iraq.

It's also a fact that this was allowed to happen due to the idiotic decisions by your country to go to war. Wouldn't want to hurt the "slanted vision" on this board by bringing that little nugget of reality up.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 10, 2007, 3:41 pm

Right nick, because it was a stable environment before we went there, right? Something like this would have happened at some point either way, but good thing we went there, now everyone can talk about how it is the United States fault that psychotic religious zealots are murdering their own.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 3:49 pm

Are you saying Iraq nowadays is an improvement on what Iraq was like before the occupation?

miir · Post by **miir** » August 10, 2007, 3:50 pm

Mak wrote:The Real Iraq Body Count, 2006

16,791 = Iraqi civilians killed last year by Islamic Terrorists.

225 = Iraqi civilians killed collaterally in incidents involving Americans and Islamic Terrorists.

Iraqis aren't dying from war. They are being murdered by Islamic terrorists.

How many Iraqis would have been killed by Islamic Terrorists if the US has not invaded, occupied Iraq and dismantled their government....

I would guess that it would be pretty fucking close to zero based on the number of Islamic Terrorists attacks that occured in Iraq previous to the US invasion.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 10, 2007, 3:51 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:Right nick, because it was a stable environment before we went there, right?

Actually Funk, it was one of the more stable contries in the middle east previous to the US invasion.

edit: because I cant read

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 3:52 pm

That was Funk, not Mid, but I can see how you confused the two

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 10, 2007, 3:53 pm

Nick wrote:Are you saying Iraq nowadays is an improvement on what Iraq was like before the occupation?

Ask the Iraq people. They seem to think so. I value their opinion more than yours.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » August 10, 2007, 4:01 pm

Nick wrote:Are you saying Iraq nowadays is an improvement on what Iraq was like before?

Nevermind, not sure why I continuously let you drag me into these ridiculously slanted conversations. Maybe you could save us all some time and just start saying all of the "clever" things you think of in front of a mirror, then you could revel in your ingenuity. Not to mention you wouldn't get any differing opinions, because it's obvious you don't want to hear them.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » August 10, 2007, 4:33 pm

First off, Killmol is right on the money about the troops. It is not in any way their fault, except for the assholes running Abu Gharib and similar shitholes. They sign up to serve and they follow orders. That is their training and their duty, end of discussion.

As for who is to blame for all the Iraqi's being slaughtered, realistically, we are. Sadam (who we put in power in the first place) kept the fuckers in line, for all of his negative qualities. We fucked up by eliminating all stability without a long term plan or any effort at keeping the infastructure intact. Really, that may have been the plan all along, anyhow, as it makes it a hell of a lot easier to sieze the oil and plant a giant permanent base there when everything is so chaotic and fucked up. Religious and idealogical differences (which W had no understanding of) are causing all the killing, but ultimately we kicked the hornets nest that got things going there. At this point, Iraq is going to self immolate whether we withdraw or not, but people with money want the oil bad enough to make out military a target there, so we are stuck until further notice.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » August 10, 2007, 7:09 pm

Nick wrote:...no one ever mentions that we should "support our retail workers", or our workers in McDonalds...

About a month or so ago I bought a game at Wal-mart. At the time I decided to make this purchase, it was the only store open that sold the game I was interested in. By doing this, I supported the cashier that rang up the game. I supported the employee that stocked the shelf with said game. I supported the employees that unloaded the truck, the truck driver that delivered the game, the guys at the warehouse that put the game on the truck, the company that distributed the game and the people that made the fuckin' thing.

I don't have a bumper sticker or T-Shirt that says "Support our Retail Workers!". It's not necessary. It's also not necessary to slap "Support our Troops" on the back of an automobile but for some, it's the best way they know to show their support. To realistically support the troops takes a lot more effort. It takes more than a bumper sticker in my opinion. In my warped mind, I don't feel I can honestly say I support the troops anymore. I could do more than voice my opinion but that's all I do.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 10, 2007, 8:53 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Mak wrote:
Nick wrote:Umm, how exactly would it have happened if you hadn't gone into Iraq?

Also Mak, your source?
http://iraqbodycount.net/database/

If you actually look at who's being killed, and by whom, and with what, you can easily see that if Islamic terrorists weren't still living in the 5th century and using 5th century methods, nobody would be dying at all in Iraq.
Stop with the facts and logic. They hurt the slanted vision of many on this board.

We've established earlier you can't differentiate fact from opinion, and IIRC you were the one telling me I was teh debil for using logic in an argument here. Hush.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » August 10, 2007, 8:56 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Nick wrote:Are you saying Iraq nowadays is an improvement on what Iraq was like before the occupation?

Ask the Iraq people. They seem to think so. I value their opinion more than yours.

Which people, the ones Faux news dredges up to kiss your ass while they're being escorted by a military contingent? Not everyone is happy with their life post Sadam, in fact, if you look around, many of them are not happy. And that doesn't even count the dead ones, or their families, none of whom seem too happy.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · August 10, 2007, 11:33 pm

Zaelath wrote: and IIRC you were the one telling me I was teh debil for using logic in an argument here. Hush.

I don't have iirc. No clue what you are talking about.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 11, 2007, 12:19 am

"if I recall correctly"

Siji · Post by **Siji** » August 11, 2007, 12:41 am

Nick wrote:That was Funk, not Mid, but I can see how you confused the two

Time out.

What the fuck happened to the joy that was both of them leaving VV?

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » August 11, 2007, 4:33 am

See http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... 771&hilit= for ref.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 11, 2007, 5:59 am

Toshira wrote:See http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... 771&hilit= for ref.

Wow, there's another example of Cart doing something worthy, attempting with patience and genuine intent to do the right thing, and getting ignored.

Worst move ever by Sylvus to ban Cart. Sorry man. It's just incredibly weak.

Not all people are built the same. Cart was a man of few words and didn't get into flowery prose when praising something and the same is true for this criticisms. But he was funny. And this board needs humor to get people through the work day. It just wasn't funny to the "special" people of the board. Weak. Weak. Weak of this board (Sylvus and the influence the whiners played in it) to ban him. It did absolutely nothing and this board certainly hasn't been better for it with more people going than coming and no real amazing jump in intelligent discussion to the forum as a whole. It's just a tad bid duller than before.

This board has one unique trait and that's the history between its posters. The rest is all easily capable of being discussed in an improved specialized environment elsewhere. You people are all a bunch of hypocrites for banning Cart (Sylvus is welcome to take the blame and is equally capable of moronic humor on touchy subjects that does, or doesn't belong here depending on who you are and who you know)

Ball up people. And by that I mean, "a method of restarting play at a neutral contest after a stoppage within the field of play"

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 11, 2007, 7:01 am

Nick wrote:This place has been a bit dead recently so I thought I'd throw a poo into the hornets nest and ask the following question.

Why is it necessary to support the troops?

I don't support the troops and I'll explain why.

As you all know, I find the Iraq war to be an abhorrent disgusting opportunistic waste of time, money and life. For this reason alone, it is completely illogical for anyone of this way of thinking to support the troops.

Add the fact that it is the troops that are responsible for at the most conservative of guesses, a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi deaths, and are the very men and women who willingly perpetuate a war based on lies that has destroyed a country far more than even its tyrannical dictator could have ever dreamed of and, to me and many others, it leads to the conclusion that these would be the last people I would ever support.

There is an argument I see doing the rounds that they are "fighting for our freedom", or "just doing their job". These are nonsense reasons to support anyone. First of all, they aren't fighting for our freedom at all, they are fighting a unilaterally decided war that has actually endangered and heightened the threat of extremist muslim terrorism in our own backyards. To me, it really doesn't count for anything that their intentions were good, because their intentions were stupid, and have proven to be dangerous, as was told to them before this happened. This isn't WW2.

There is a certain nobility to being a soldier I admit, but that nobility goes out the window when you do what the Army of the Coalition of the Willing has done in Iraq.

The "just doing their job" thing is equally irrelevant, no one forced them to do this job in the first place, and no one ever mentions that we should "support our retail workers", or our workers in McDonalds who aren't actually murdering people for no reason (except in cases of food poisoning.) Responsibility for being involved in a war that has no use but to enrich the few, whilst endangering many more, is not nullified simply because "they are just doing their job."

If, in the case of Iraq, this is their job, then their job is needlessly murderous, and is again absolutely no reason to ever support them.

Obviously I don't wish for any soldiers to die, because I do understand that there are families, loved ones, children and countries left with dead young people, but um....they did sort of ask for it like. The Iraqi's didn't. Frankly I have more sympathy for the actual Iraqi victims, not the ones who perpetrated the crime and then got killed.

Not a single candidate in the run up to the next US election is prepared to question this statement, yet where I live the whole "support the troops" thing is seen as very strange, and frankly a little sickening given the nature of the last few years of American decision making in regards to the "war on terror."

And no, you can't be against the war yet support the troops, its completely ridiculous and a massive hypocrisy to claim that.

So why is "supporting the troops" considered such holy territory (seemingly) in the US, when the lives of Iraqi's are absolutely fucking irrelevant?

It seems like a disgusting double standard.

Discuss.

Ok, I take serious fucking issue with this post and now I'm going to learn you something about America.

Whether you admit or not, American culture and American laws cherish human life. Even as corrupt and ignorant as some of our leaders may seem, most of them, a vast majority of them believe in the sanctity of life on earth and moreover, life in America. Does that make the lives of Iraqis irrelevant? Of course not and only a buffoon would make such a moronic assertion. As a culture, we have the right and the privilege of valuing the lives of our countrymen above the lives of others. Every fucking society in the world does this so how fucking dare you criticize us for it? Do you hold the same regard for the life of some poor oppressed kid in Africa as you do your family, friends, neighbors and the people in your life? Maybe you are naive enough to think that you don't make these types of discriminations but the truth is you do for the mere fact that you are human.

Now I wasn't alive during Vietnam but I've seen the videos of hateful hippies like yourself spitting, FUCKING SPITTING on the soldiers. Spitting on a man who made the decision to put his life on the line for his country. Whether he made that decision out of desperation, fear, naiveness, pressure, courage, or sheer love of his country is fucking irrelevant. The result is the same; that his life is dangerous so that the rest of us can maintain and promote our cultural values and more importantly, our lives. These people earned and deserve our respect and support for their sacrifice, which if not their very life is at least their mental well being. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the sacrifices of the American military over the last century have given YOU more freedom and luxury than your own.

Moreover, you are making a moronic logical fallacy. The assertion that the military is responsible for the state of affairs in Iraq is not entirely inaccurate, but its use in arguments is so fucking ignorant that my internal bullshitometer nearly explodes and i feel obligated to respond. The American military is designed to be an asset of the policy makers. I liken blaming the military to running over a dog with your car and blaming your fucking car!!

Finally, I understand and agree with your criticisms of the current administration. But if you follow your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, it would entail that America shouldn't have a military at all! Listen, we don't live in a happy fairy land where no one kills and wars don't exist. I hope as you do human society will one day reach this point. But until it does it is in my best interest that America maintains it's military might as long as fucking possible.

This is why we support our troops, bitch.

p.s. Un-ban Cart!!

Fash · Post by **Fash** » August 11, 2007, 8:01 am

Xyun wrote:
Ok, I take serious fucking issue with this post and now I'm going to learn you something about America.

Whether you admit or not, American culture and American laws cherish human life. Even as corrupt and ignorant as some of our leaders may seem, most of them, a vast majority of them believe in the sanctity of life on earth and moreover, life in America. Does that make the lives of Iraqis irrelevant? Of course not and only a buffoon would make such a moronic assertion. As a culture, we have the right and the privilege of valuing the lives of our countrymen above the lives of others. Every fucking society in the world does this so how fucking dare you criticize us for it? Do you hold the same regard for the life of some poor oppressed kid in Africa as you do your family, friends, neighbors and the people in your life? Maybe you are naive enough to think that you don't make these types of discriminations but the truth is you do for the mere fact that you are human.

Now I wasn't alive during Vietnam but I've seen the videos of hateful hippies like yourself spitting, FUCKING SPITTING on the soldiers. Spitting on a man who made the decision to put his life on the line for his country. Whether he made that decision out of desperation, fear, naiveness, pressure, courage, or sheer love of his country is fucking irrelevant. The result is the same; that his life is dangerous so that the rest of us can maintain and promote our cultural values and more importantly, our lives. These people earned and deserve our respect and support for their sacrifice, which if not their very life is at least their mental well being. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the sacrifices of the American military over the last century have given YOU more freedom and luxury than your own.

Moreover, you are making a moronic logical fallacy. The assertion that the military is responsible for the state of affairs in Iraq is not entirely inaccurate, but its use in arguments is so fucking ignorant that my internal bullshitometer nearly explodes and i feel obligated to respond. The American military is designed to be an asset of the policy makers. I liken blaming the military to running over a dog with your car and blaming your fucking car!!

Finally, I understand and agree with your criticisms of the current administration. But if you follow your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, it would entail that America shouldn't have a military at all! Listen, we don't live in a happy fairy land where no one kills and wars don't exist. I hope as you do human society will one day reach this point. But until it does it is in my best interest that America maintains it's military might as long as fucking possible.

This is why we support our troops, bitch.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 11, 2007, 9:16 am

Xyun wrote: Ok, I take serious fucking issue with this post and now I'm going to learn you something about America.

Whether you admit or not, American culture and American laws cherish human life. Even as corrupt and ignorant as some of our leaders may seem, most of them, a vast majority of them believe in the sanctity of life on earth and moreover, life in America. Does that make the lives of Iraqis irrelevant? Of course not and only a buffoon would make such a moronic assertion. As a culture, we have the right and the privilege of valuing the lives of our countrymen above the lives of others. Every fucking society in the world does this so how fucking dare you criticize us for it? Do you hold the same regard for the life of some poor oppressed kid in Africa as you do your family, friends, neighbors and the people in your life? Maybe you are naive enough to think that you don't make these types of discriminations but the truth is you do for the mere fact that you are human.

Now I wasn't alive during Vietnam but I've seen the videos of hateful hippies like yourself spitting, FUCKING SPITTING on the soldiers. Spitting on a man who made the decision to put his life on the line for his country. Whether he made that decision out of desperation, fear, naiveness, pressure, courage, or sheer love of his country is fucking irrelevant. The result is the same; that his life is dangerous so that the rest of us can maintain and promote our cultural values and more importantly, our lives. These people earned and deserve our respect and support for their sacrifice, which if not their very life is at least their mental well being. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the sacrifices of the American military over the last century have given YOU more freedom and luxury than your own.

Moreover, you are making a moronic logical fallacy. The assertion that the military is responsible for the state of affairs in Iraq is not entirely inaccurate, but its use in arguments is so fucking ignorant that my internal bullshitometer nearly explodes and i feel obligated to respond. The American military is designed to be an asset of the policy makers. I liken blaming the military to running over a dog with your car and blaming your fucking car!!

Finally, I understand and agree with your criticisms of the current administration. But if you follow your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, it would entail that America shouldn't have a military at all! Listen, we don't live in a happy fairy land where no one kills and wars don't exist. I hope as you do human society will one day reach this point. But until it does it is in my best interest that America maintains it's military might as long as fucking possible.

This is why we support our troops, bitch.

p.s. Un-ban Cart!!

Wow. Well said Xyun. Thank you for injecting some reason into this discussion.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 11, 2007, 11:25 am

Winnow wrote:Not all people are built the same. Cart was a man of few words and didn't get into flowery prose when praising something and the same is true for this criticisms. But he was funny. And this board needs humor to get people through the work day. It just wasn't funny to the "special" people of the board. Weak. Weak. Weak of this board (Sylvus and the influence the whiners played in it) to ban him. It did absolutely nothing and this board certainly hasn't been better for it with more people going than coming and no real amazing jump in intelligent discussion to the forum as a whole. It's just a tad bid duller than before.

Guess if he wanted to stay he shouldn't have asked to be banned. lolz!

(I can do this all day!)

Siji · Post by **Siji** » August 11, 2007, 12:20 pm

Seriously, can we please allow the option to ignore fucktard moderators in forums other than the ones they don't moderate?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 11, 2007, 12:43 pm

Xyun wrote:
Nick wrote:This place has been a bit dead recently so I thought I'd throw a poo into the hornets nest and ask the following question.

Why is it necessary to support the troops?

I don't support the troops and I'll explain why.

As you all know, I find the Iraq war to be an abhorrent disgusting opportunistic waste of time, money and life. For this reason alone, it is completely illogical for anyone of this way of thinking to support the troops.

Add the fact that it is the troops that are responsible for at the most conservative of guesses, a hundred thousand innocent Iraqi deaths, and are the very men and women who willingly perpetuate a war based on lies that has destroyed a country far more than even its tyrannical dictator could have ever dreamed of and, to me and many others, it leads to the conclusion that these would be the last people I would ever support.

There is an argument I see doing the rounds that they are "fighting for our freedom", or "just doing their job". These are nonsense reasons to support anyone. First of all, they aren't fighting for our freedom at all, they are fighting a unilaterally decided war that has actually endangered and heightened the threat of extremist muslim terrorism in our own backyards. To me, it really doesn't count for anything that their intentions were good, because their intentions were stupid, and have proven to be dangerous, as was told to them before this happened. This isn't WW2.

There is a certain nobility to being a soldier I admit, but that nobility goes out the window when you do what the Army of the Coalition of the Willing has done in Iraq.

The "just doing their job" thing is equally irrelevant, no one forced them to do this job in the first place, and no one ever mentions that we should "support our retail workers", or our workers in McDonalds who aren't actually murdering people for no reason (except in cases of food poisoning.) Responsibility for being involved in a war that has no use but to enrich the few, whilst endangering many more, is not nullified simply because "they are just doing their job."

If, in the case of Iraq, this is their job, then their job is needlessly murderous, and is again absolutely no reason to ever support them.

Obviously I don't wish for any soldiers to die, because I do understand that there are families, loved ones, children and countries left with dead young people, but um....they did sort of ask for it like. The Iraqi's didn't. Frankly I have more sympathy for the actual Iraqi victims, not the ones who perpetrated the crime and then got killed.

Not a single candidate in the run up to the next US election is prepared to question this statement, yet where I live the whole "support the troops" thing is seen as very strange, and frankly a little sickening given the nature of the last few years of American decision making in regards to the "war on terror."

And no, you can't be against the war yet support the troops, its completely ridiculous and a massive hypocrisy to claim that.

So why is "supporting the troops" considered such holy territory (seemingly) in the US, when the lives of Iraqi's are absolutely fucking irrelevant?

It seems like a disgusting double standard.

Discuss.
Ok, I take serious fucking issue with this post and now I'm going to learn you something about America.

Whether you admit or not, American culture and American laws cherish human life. Even as corrupt and ignorant as some of our leaders may seem, most of them, a vast majority of them believe in the sanctity of life on earth and moreover, life in America. Does that make the lives of Iraqis irrelevant? Of course not and only a buffoon would make such a moronic assertion. As a culture, we have the right and the privilege of valuing the lives of our countrymen above the lives of others. Every fucking society in the world does this so how fucking dare you criticize us for it? Do you hold the same regard for the life of some poor oppressed kid in Africa as you do your family, friends, neighbors and the people in your life? Maybe you are naive enough to think that you don't make these types of discriminations but the truth is you do for the mere fact that you are human.

Now I wasn't alive during Vietnam but I've seen the videos of hateful hippies like yourself spitting, FUCKING SPITTING on the soldiers. Spitting on a man who made the decision to put his life on the line for his country. Whether he made that decision out of desperation, fear, naiveness, pressure, courage, or sheer love of his country is fucking irrelevant. The result is the same; that his life is dangerous so that the rest of us can maintain and promote our cultural values and more importantly, our lives. These people earned and deserve our respect and support for their sacrifice, which if not their very life is at least their mental well being. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the sacrifices of the American military over the last century have given YOU more freedom and luxury than your own.

Moreover, you are making a moronic logical fallacy. The assertion that the military is responsible for the state of affairs in Iraq is not entirely inaccurate, but its use in arguments is so fucking ignorant that my internal bullshitometer nearly explodes and i feel obligated to respond. The American military is designed to be an asset of the policy makers. I liken blaming the military to running over a dog with your car and blaming your fucking car!!

Finally, I understand and agree with your criticisms of the current administration. But if you follow your line of thinking to its logical conclusion, it would entail that America shouldn't have a military at all! Listen, we don't live in a happy fairy land where no one kills and wars don't exist. I hope as you do human society will one day reach this point. But until it does it is in my best interest that America maintains it's military might as long as fucking possible.

This is why we support our troops, bitch.

p.s. Un-ban Cart!!

That was a whole lot of words to say nothing at all, bitch.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 12, 2007, 1:15 pm

Jesus......Cart gets banned and Nick is allowed to be an imbecile the likes of which makes Cart look like a Rhodes Scholar. Is this irony or lunacy?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 12, 2007, 1:21 pm

Yes Kilmoll's in a position to talk about these things.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 12, 2007, 2:01 pm

Nick hasn't asked to be banned. Big difference! lolz!

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » August 12, 2007, 9:30 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Jesus......Cart gets banned and Nick is allowed to be an imbecile the likes of which makes Cart look like a Rhodes Scholar. Is this irony or lunacy?

At least he is willing to state a position and take the flack for it. I don't agree with him per se and his dismissal Xyun's post with a one-liner is Cart-esque but when you look at the essay he posted to start off things, he probably posted more opinion and back up in this single thread than Cart did in his upteen fucking thousand posts outside Winnow's NBA discussions. About all I can say Nick is guilty of is being unable to concede any point in an argument.

This forum is a much better place without Cart than it was with him.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 12, 2007, 9:39 pm

I do not concede that I can't concede a point in an argument!

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » August 13, 2007, 4:40 am

Ask the Iraq people. They seem to think so. I value their opinion more than yours.

A March 7, 2007 survey of more than 2,000 Iraqis commissioned by the BBC and three other news organisations found that 51% of the population consider attacks on coalition forces "acceptable"

Surely you don't find attacks on coalition forces acceptable.

Very interesting poll here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/p ... ollnew.pdf

I hate to notice the growing amount of pessimism in the responses, but I'm counting on the poll being biased.

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » August 13, 2007, 4:56 pm

From a military blog site, this guy returned from a year in Afghanistan:
I believe these are the most important lessons I learned from my year in Afghanistan.

Most Americans have no clue about the sacrifices tens of thousands of American servicemen and women are making every day. Yes, they know about the ultimate sacrifice made by those who will not come home, the media and politicians love to tell us the latest ‘body count.’ Don’t misunderstand, those who have paid the ultimate price should be honored, but using their numbers for political ends is not honoring them. It is the rest of us, those who go over and serve and come home, that I am talking about. Most Americans have no clue what we sacrifice, and it seems they just don’t care. As long as they can stuff their fat faces with all the food they can see, watch the crap that passes as news and entertainment on T.V., and gossip about imbeciles like Paris Hilton, they are content with life. If it doesn’t affect their little bubble, no thought is given to what others are sacrificing so they can live in that bubble.

Americans have no clue about how important this fight is! America is involved in one of the most important fights it has ever faced! I don’t believe this is hyperbole, it is the truth. The ‘war on terrorism’ is as important as WWII and the Revolutionary War. I know there are many who will discount this, but it is my belief that it is true. The erroneous belief so many have about the importance of this fight comes from a total lack of understanding about what we are fighting against. This is a war against an ideology inextricably intertwined with a culture that cannot coexist with ours or any other that is not like theirs. I know that is not politically correct to say, but it is the truth. Most in the West, in general, and America in particular, have no clue how different the Middle East is from the West and how that reality impacts this fight. It is not our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, or George W. Bush that motivates them and creates the hate they feel; those are just convenient excuses for those who don’t understand. What they hate is US. It is our freedom, it is our liberalism, and our acceptance of all forms of religion. In Afghanistan, and Iraq (I have never been to Iraq, but cannot imagine it is much different there), it is as close to ‘group think’ as is possible. Everyone, for the most part, is Muslim; no one is allowed to be any different without becoming something less of a citizen, and we know what happens to Muslims who convert to another religion (the guy in Afghanistan they wanted to execute because he had converted to Christianity). In a society in which everyone must believe the same thing, it is impossible to have freedom of thought and more importantly, expression; because people might be persuaded to think something other then the ‘party’ line from which the power-holders derive their power and control. They hate our religions, or absence of religion, but more importantly, they hate our ability to freely express what we believe; whether that expression is a belief in a certain religion or an idea that is not the view of the majority. It is not as simple as we pull out of the Middle East and they leave us alone; that will never happen. Understand, in the world view of many in the Middle East, the world is to be conquered, and once conquered, people will convert to their ideology, become a second-class citizen, or die. There is no compromise; they either destroy us or we destroy them. It is that simple. Until that ideology goes through its own reformation and progresses, this fight will never end; if we pull out, it will just be fought here instead of over there.

Oh, one last thing I learned; it is good to be home!

- Mike