Bonds

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » August 8, 2007, 11:06 am

My favorite part was the police carrying out the bloodied fan who caught the ball as he is joyously high fiving people on the way out of the stands.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 8, 2007, 11:08 am

Why is a steroid user allowed to hold a record in any sport?

Am I missing something here?

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 8, 2007, 11:23 am

I'm just glad the media will eventually grow tired of him until the Mitchell and BALCO investigations heat up again. Kinda tired of the 'Chasing Aaron' crap on every media outlet. Bonds was 0-3 with a walk...got a bit old.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 8, 2007, 12:59 pm

Nick wrote:Why is a steroid user allowed to hold a record in any sport?

Am I missing something here?

You are the one who has his positive test? George Mitchell has been looking for you all this time!

Steroid users hold records in every sport, that is a plain and simple fact. They passed all the coke heads and speed freaks at some point in the last 20 years. Never mind the pitchers in baseball who are hall of famers who admitted to doctoring balls and using vasoline and the like who no one says boo about. I thought cheating was cheating, yet all they get is a chuckle when they talk about razor blades under their fingernails and the like.

If you think there is a sport clean of massive steroid use then you are far too naive to even enter a discussion with on the subject. Baseball, Basketball, Football, Track, Cycling, Soccer, Hockey, you name it, the athletes are juiced.

Aaron sending along the message he did was an extra added bonus to tell people to shut up, definitely a nice surprise and a very classy move for a guy in a no win situation.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 8, 2007, 1:10 pm

Don't care too much about roids. Bonds is an asshole though personality-wise. I dislike him for that reason.

The Eastern block was all hyped up on roids during the Olympic games for decades before testing. Should we go back and take away all of those she-men gold medals?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 8, 2007, 1:17 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote:
Nick wrote:Why is a steroid user allowed to hold a record in any sport?

Am I missing something here?
You are the one who has his positive test? George Mitchell has been looking for you all this time!

Steroid users hold records in every sport, that is a plain and simple fact. They passed all the coke heads and speed freaks at some point in the last 20 years. Never mind the pitchers in baseball who are hall of famers who admitted to doctoring balls and using vasoline and the like who no one says boo about. I thought cheating was cheating, yet all they get is a chuckle when they talk about razor blades under their fingernails and the like.

If you think there is a sport clean of massive steroid use then you are far too naive to even enter a discussion with on the subject. Baseball, Basketball, Football, Track, Cycling, Soccer, Hockey, you name it, the athletes are juiced.

Aaron sending along the message he did was an extra added bonus to tell people to shut up, definitely a nice surprise and a very classy move for a guy in a no win situation.

Evidently you're an incredibly well educated sports pundit and as such I am too naive to enter into a discussion into whether its logical to call a sportsman whos used performance enhancing drugs a cheat who should be stripped of his records. Although, its debateable how worthwhile any record is in a game of glorified rounders.

Claiming you "didnt know they were steroids" isn't a valid excuse. You may as well just make all Performance enhancers legal by your reasoning, which is bullshit, if you have a single bit of sportsmanship in your body.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 8, 2007, 2:19 pm

Cheating is part of every sport. I condone it and recommend it. The ball scuffing and doctoring of balls and bats is like a game within the game. Anyone can do it and the managers can call for someone to be checked. Someone dropping a spitter on occasion is not rewriting record books.I don't foresee a manager being able to demand a piss test on the mound if he thinks the guy is juicing.

Steroids are illegal performance enhancers that have completely destroyed the record books and everyone tied to using them should have every stat tied to them removed once they are brought to light. There are great players from the 80s and early 90s that could have been in the Hall of Fame until these inflated numbers began making their achievments look miniscule. guys like Dale Murphy and Andre Dawson should have been complete locks and now they look like chumps compared to juiced up fuckheads that would have done jack shit without roids. Sammy Sosa could not have carried Murphy or Dawson or Jim Rice's dirty jocks if he had to play clean.

Bonds still would have ended up a HoF type guy, but he would have been looking at 500-600 homers for his career. I am sure there were some pitchers juicing it up too....and I am betting that most of them are already gone from the game since they started sucking shortly after the testing started (see: Graves, Danny). As a reference, from 1900-1995 there have been 18 times that a player has hit 50 or more HR. Since 1995, it has happened 21 times. It is not just coincidence.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » August 8, 2007, 2:52 pm

It would have been cool if someone had a bunch of baseballs with them and dropped them as the ball was hit. Mass confusion and caranage.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 8, 2007, 2:54 pm

As someone who doesn't really like sports to begin with... Is there any professional sport that isn't a joke these days? It seems like all you hear is steroids this, doping that, etc. Golf maybe!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 8, 2007, 2:56 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:It would have been cool if someone had a bunch of baseballs with them and dropped them as the ball was hit. Mass confusion and caranage.

Would be funny for a little while but they mark the balls for these big events so it would be identified eventually!

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » August 8, 2007, 6:06 pm

Aslanna wrote:As someone who doesn't really like sports to begin with... Is there any professional sport that isn't a joke these days? It seems like all you hear is steroids this, doping that, etc. Golf maybe!

I believe golf was the last pro sport to not require drug testing. But Gary Player just said that he knows for a fact golfers dope, though he won't name names.
So yeah, golf doping scandal inc!
Not very gentlemenly. But there arent really any massively ripped golfers out there that I know of. Most are average to puny.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 8, 2007, 9:16 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:It would have been cool if someone had a bunch of baseballs with them and dropped them as the ball was hit. Mass confusion and caranage.

They did btw. People tossed balls to distract others while they tried to get the real one.

I'm not sure if I'll recognize Bonds' record, not that I'm any kind of authority.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 8, 2007, 9:45 pm

I find it most amazing when people try to justify the record by using the 'everyone else was doing it' card. Although that is not bad as the 'but you have to respect the record regardless' re: Giant Fan card.

There are so many people to blame....not much good is going to come out of this, but hopefully they nail all those guilty and the sport can go back to being not so much of a spectacle...maybe more boring, but most baseball fans don't watch everyday and say, 'hay guys, I want some more dongs!'...

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 9, 2007, 12:15 am

Nick wrote:
Evidently you're an incredibly well educated sports pundit and as such I am too naive to enter into a discussion into whether its logical to call a sportsman whos used performance enhancing drugs a cheat who should be stripped of his records. Although, its debateable how worthwhile any record is in a game of glorified rounders.

Claiming you "didnt know they were steroids" isn't a valid excuse. You may as well just make all Performance enhancers legal by your reasoning, which is bullshit, if you have a single bit of sportsmanship in your body.

Actually you seem to miss my point entirely. There was rampant steroid use in baseball. There was rampant steroid use in Football. There was rampant use of steroids in Hockey. There was rampant steroid use in Basketball. There also IS rampant steroid use in each and every one of those sports. Right now, today, to think otherwise is naive.

Why is performance enhancers a reason to strip someone of records and achievements and yet scuffing a ball, using a corked bat, being jacked up on greenies, being jacked up on coke, pine tar on the bat, stickum on your fingers, those are not cheating enough. Going to take away everything George Brett did because he got CAUGHT cheating? People draw lines on some forms of cheating and not on others.... flat out hypocritical if you ask me.

I don't give a rats ass what they do personally, just play the damn game. I have stated that position dozens of times over the years.

Pro sports has nothing to do with sportsmanship, it is business.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 9, 2007, 12:43 am

OK, I am going to go ahead and call bullshit on comparing the acceptable pine tar usage to using federally illegal testosterone-based drugs. Care to argue?

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 9, 2007, 2:11 am

Which one was illegal in baseball at the time of use, in other words punishable by baseball (or if you prefer the keepers of the records)?

That trivial bit of fact aside I would say that if you cheat to win, however you cheat to win, you should be painted with the same brush.

Just about everything in sports you and I have seen in the past 15 or so years has been juiced, every sport, I kinda enjoyed a lot of sports in that time and the fact that what I will be watching tomorrow and next year are also juiced doesn't bother me in the least.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 9, 2007, 8:53 am

Baseball also has no rule about pulling out a .45 and shooting a batter while the pitch is coming, but one would THINK the federal and state laws just MIGHT come into play in sports.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 9, 2007, 9:28 am

Saying "every sportman" is on drugs is complete nonsense.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » August 9, 2007, 10:29 am

Where is Pherr's tinfoil baseball cap? Seriously, if you think that every professional athlete is "juiced," you need to get out of Cali.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 9, 2007, 10:49 am

Ohh, I forgot about the 'was not illegal in baseball' argument. While it is true that baseball had no specific rule regarding beefroids-bumblebondssauce and the like, baseball is not above federal law--they only got away with it. Getting away with it does not make it ok or legal. And I though Cowboys fans were retarded....

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » August 9, 2007, 11:03 am

Canelek wrote:Ohh, I forgot about the 'was not illegal in baseball' argument. While it is true that baseball had no specific rule regarding beefroids-bumblebondssauce and the like, baseball is not above federal law--they only got away with it. Getting away with it does not make it ok or legal. And I though Cowboys fans were retarded....

but illegal immigrants don't break the law, how could Bonds break the law if it "didn't apply?"

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 9, 2007, 1:46 pm

I will say not every athlete is juiced, I'd put the number around 45% now, down from about 65% 5 years ago. If it made a difference of millions of dollars to you, you'd juice too. Run faster, be stronger, recover faster, increased endurance etc etc etc. You can look at the muscle structure of dozens of the big name athletes today and see the juice in the structure of their bodies while they do their hanes T-shirt promotions.

As far as being legal in baseball, there are a great many steroids that are not or were not illegal. Andro being a great example because they had records of it in Big Mac's locker the year he was on his chase. It was determined not to be a banned substance and he had a doctors prescription so it fell by the wayside.

Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro (or andros) for short. Andro was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire, but it is unknown (and unknowable) to what extent andro was responsible for McGwire's exceptional performance. The supplement is banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and hence from the Olympic Games.

On March 12, 2004, the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 was introduced into the United States Senate. It amended the Controlled Substance Act to place both anabolic steroids and prohormones on a list of controlled substances, making possession of the banned substances a federal crime. The law took effect on January 20, 2005.

On April 11, 2004, the United States Food and Drug Administration banned the sale of Andro, citing that the drug poses significant health risks commonly associated with steroids.

A huge amount of the stuff that everyone says was illegal simply put was not until 2004 under the ASCA. The Clear and the Cream themselves were not illegal in the US until late 2003 (the year after Bonda, Giambi, Sheff, Rodriguez and Palmiero et al all stopped taking it).

How many new designer drugs have taken their place?

How can you test for HGH when you simply put, can't?

Do you really think these egocentric guys are not going to take something to stay on top if it means millions? I wear a tinfoil hat about steroids, sure, yah, either that or I am just realistic and don't care what they do.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 9, 2007, 5:27 pm

Canelek wrote:Ohh, I forgot about the 'was not illegal in baseball' argument. While it is true that baseball had no specific rule regarding beefroids-bumblebondssauce and the like, baseball is not above federal law--they only got away with it. Getting away with it does not make it ok or legal. And I though Cowboys fans were retarded....

Actually it was illegal in baseball. The collective bargaining agreement mentioned any drug obtained without a valid medical neccesity was against the CBA. Illegal steroids fell into that.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » August 9, 2007, 8:51 pm

Didn't know that, thanks!

And sorry for the knock on the Cowboys folks, it was early in the morning.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » August 10, 2007, 12:13 am

Pherr the Dorf wrote:Why is performance enhancers a reason to strip someone of records and achievements and yet scuffing a ball, using a corked bat, being jacked up on greenies, being jacked up on coke, pine tar on the bat, stickum on your fingers, those are not cheating enough. Going to take away everything George Brett did because he got CAUGHT cheating? People draw lines on some forms of cheating and not on others.... flat out hypocritical if you ask me.

I disagree.

Most of the forms you listed are one offs, that affect small portions of a game or single plays, whereas using a performance enhancer affects an athlete EVERY time they are on the field. I'll agree with you that there are a lot of missed offenses with regard to steroid and other drug use (not to mention other types of cheating), but that doesn't excuse it. When people are caught, there are repercussions, be it penalties in the game, ejections and suspensions: why should this type of cheating be exempt?

For the record, I'm not a baseball fan; I don't really care about Barry Bonds other than disliking his persona that comes through his interviews and public actions. I also don't think the record can be considered tainted without positive proof that he is on the juice. Allegations don't cut it: we need results.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 10, 2007, 2:53 am

http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/ ... 85,00.html

The difference betwen 1999 Barry Bonds and 2000 Barry Bonds is ..... interesting

.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 10, 2007, 11:14 am

He was consistently 185-190 for 10 years. Then hit 226 in two years. Now assuming that's not fat, can you naturally build that much muscle in that amout of time?

Oh, and according to a recent MythBusters corking a bat actually ends up delivering less power to the ball so that it leaves the bat at half the speed that it does from a noncorked bat. So they're only cheating themselves!

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 10, 2007, 11:57 am

Aslanna wrote:He was consistently 185-190 for 10 years. Then hit 226 in two years. Now assuming that's not fat, can you naturally build that much muscle in that amout of time?

Oh, and according to a recent MythBusters corking a bat actually ends up delivering less power to the ball so that it leaves the bat at half the speed that it does from a noncorked bat. So they're only cheating themselves!

It wasn't even 2 years really. In one offseason ('01 to '02 iirc) he arrived at spring training at a reported 30lbs gained and absolutely ripped. To the point that his teammates were calling him the Hulk in the locker room.

Is it possible to do that from September to March? Yes, especially as an athlete who is already very active and in good shape. His age, however plays a big factor against that.

Steroid use has an obvious characteristic, in that you can only maintain about 60-70% of the gain after stopping the use of steroids, but it requires a lot of work. HGH, however doesn't have that problem. It also helps the body to heal faster, reducing continued injury from such intense workouts. It's most telling side effect is that your body grows, that's why it's HGH.

To me personally, he looks bigger, and I don't just mean muscle. His frame is bigger, his head is bigger (literally). I'd be curious to see if he grew vertically any.

Anyways, I'm in no way saying he did or didn't, so you clowns demanding to see my positive test results for anything can eat it. I'm just sharing information, and my opinion.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 10, 2007, 4:36 pm

Truant wrote:
Aslanna wrote:He was consistently 185-190 for 10 years. Then hit 226 in two years. Now assuming that's not fat, can you naturally build that much muscle in that amout of time?

Oh, and according to a recent MythBusters corking a bat actually ends up delivering less power to the ball so that it leaves the bat at half the speed that it does from a noncorked bat. So they're only cheating themselves!

It wasn't even 2 years really. In one offseason ('01 to '02 iirc) he arrived at spring training at a reported 30lbs gained and absolutely ripped. To the point that his teammates were calling him the Hulk in the locker room.

Is it possible to do that from September to March? Yes, especially as an athlete who is already very active and in good shape. His age, however plays a big factor against that.

Steroid use has an obvious characteristic, in that you can only maintain about 60-70% of the gain after stopping the use of steroids, but it requires a lot of work. HGH, however doesn't have that problem. It also helps the body to heal faster, reducing continued injury from such intense workouts. It's most telling side effect is that your body grows, that's why it's HGH.

To me personally, he looks bigger, and I don't just mean muscle. His frame is bigger, his head is bigger (literally). I'd be curious to see if he grew vertically any.

Anyways, I'm in no way saying he did or didn't, so you clowns demanding to see my positive test results for anything can eat it. I'm just sharing information, and my opinion.

I agree 110% with you, I have no doubts he used the same things that everyone else was using for years and years before, I just think he p[referred the effects of HGH to roids. Pitchers were more common steroid users than batters who preferred HGH according to most people and I would believe that too. HGH is still abused like chiclets in sports (yah, Greg Oden anyone?) and they are getting kids younger and younger with potential on it so they come in huge now instead of bulking them up and raising eyebrows. The reason Bonds change was so pronounced was that his offseason training was always off the charts, he became a posterboy for what could happen if one works their ass off.

One thing that is interesting to me is that Bonds, unlike everyone else that is a home run hitting superstar or near superstar (Giambi, Palmiero, Pudge, Sheff, etc etc) why did everyone else shrink noticeably and not Bonds? It makes me think that the leaked testimony was pretty right on, he tried the cream and clear and didn't like the way they made him feel and cut that out (ie his size wasn't steroid based). There was no mention of HGH in any of the testimony but to me that is what he was taking and what effected both his size and power #s. We are going to see a lot of bigger and stronger players entering sports in the next 5-10 years and we will see numbers that are through the roof because these kids will be enhanced long before they even get into college.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 10, 2007, 5:21 pm

To me, the biggest piece of evidence that there is no such thing as a 'clean' sport is the size of football linemen these days. If 300 pounders were available in the '80s, they would have been played. They weren't, because they didn't exist, because their existence is drug-induced. Being a football fan requires understanding that the entire game is based on drugs these days.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 13, 2007, 1:31 pm

Sueven wrote:To me, the biggest piece of evidence that there is no such thing as a 'clean' sport is the size of football linemen these days. If 300 pounders were available in the '80s, they would have been played. They weren't, because they didn't exist, because their existence is drug-induced. Being a football fan requires understanding that the entire game is based on drugs these days.

We're both entitled to our opinions, but I think yours is wrong. The NFL tests for steroids as much or moreso than any other major American sport. It's my belief that people are getting bigger across the board, and bigger high school kids begets bigger college players begets bigger NFL players. Add to that the year-round training and nutritional requirements that have become more and more prevalent earlier and earlier in a football player's career, and I think that explains most of it.

My senior year of high school (1994), I played lineman at 6'2" 260lbs and never touched a steroid and rarely worked out. I was recruited pretty heavily by a number of (smaller) schools, only a couple D-I schools, and had I played college ball at any of those schools I would have been required to begin a regiment before my senior year ended, as several of my friends did, that pretty easily could have added 15-20 lbs before the first snap in September. And we're talking about programs that don't have the budget or resources that the major college football programs (read: the NFL lineman farms) do.

I'm not saying that there is no steroid use in the NFL, I'm sure there is plenty, but I don't think it is even close to being the norm. I'd be interested to see the change in average height of the NFL lineman (or across the board, really) between now and 30 years ago. I don't think your height changes that much with steroid use, and I believe that most everyone in the NFL now is taller, with a bigger frame for adding size, be it muscle or just mass in general.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 13, 2007, 1:44 pm

HGH

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 13, 2007, 1:46 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote: HGH explains everything about height and weight and no loss of athleticism.

As fazr as testing for drugs the only sport with a serious policy is cycling and we all know what happens when they test

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 13, 2007, 1:47 pm

Does the NFL test for HGH? No.

Are NFL players regularly caught and suspended for using steroids? Yes.

Is it likely that far more players are using than the ones who are caught? Yes. For instance: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/ ... 3747.shtml

Has our experience in other sports conclusively demonstrated that even a rigorous testing program is inadequate to combat pharmaceutical abuse? Yes.

I mean, good for the NFL, they do the best they can. But I don't see how you can refuse to believe that a good amount of that mass is drug-induced.

Post by **Sylvus** » August 13, 2007, 2:38 pm

Like I said, I'm not under any illusions that steroids are not used in the NFL, but I don't think that the majority of the hundreds of 300lb linemen in the NFL used steroids to grow to be 300lbs.

Sueven wrote:If 300 pounders were available in the '80s, they would have been played. They weren't, because they didn't exist, because their existence is drug-induced.

25 positive tests in 5 years out of 9000 tests per year (according to the article you linked), and anecdotal stories of 3 members of one team working with one shady doctor aren't enough to sway me into believing that every (or even 90%... 80%... 75%) nfl lineman is using steroids or HGH.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 13, 2007, 3:56 pm

Something to remember about HGH, is that more and more athletes are using them in the developing years, because professional and even college sports are testing more heavily.

There are tons of high school athletes who are using HGH and/or steroids to get big because testing at that stage is really lax, or nonexistant.

Done this way, an athlete never needs to take performance enhancing drugs to get bigger at the professional level. Unless we're talking about trying to stay competitive as an aging athlete.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » August 13, 2007, 4:04 pm

Truant wrote:There are tons of high school athletes who are using HGH and/or steroids to get big because testing at that stage is really lax, or nonexistant.

It will be interesting to see how the testing goes in Texas now that all athletes are supposed to be going through it. I guess we'll have to see if they can actually get the program rolled out beyond the "just do it" phase though.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » August 13, 2007, 4:05 pm

Shrug. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

A lineman who was a monster only 20 years ago is undersized now. You chalk that up to better nutrition and fitness routines, I think that's ridiculous. I don't think we'll reconcile those opinions.

I agree that not everybody uses steroids (or HGH, which is really the bigger concern in this context). I do think that there is enough HGH and steroid use that the game is fundamentally different than it would be without the influence of those drugs.

If you had taken HGH and/or roids when you were younger, you probably could have been 6'5/300 when you graduated, and maybe you would have had the opportunity to go play at a major D1 program.

I never played football (I weigh 155 pounds), and I attended a high school with a shitty football program, and even I knew multiple players using performance enhancing drugs.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 13, 2007, 4:14 pm

Disputing whether HGH is used these days is moot because, as someone else stated and most know, you can't test for it.
How I see it, there are not many guys that could even hope to have the physical stature of a lineman based off of what is considered the norm today. Now the 300 lb line is a lot more common and the guys filling that role are far more physically adept. To me it feels as if you're tapping into more pure atheletes that got big w/ HGH than trying to make big guys athletic as in the past

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » August 13, 2007, 10:08 pm

Don't even look at the pro game look at the college game, 300# lines are the norm. Stanford, a school regularly on the bottom of the Pac 10, a school with academic ratings so high they can't attract very much talent to their football program, a school that has never nor will ever be a football powerhouse... 13 lineman over 300#s including 1 Frosh and 3 Sophs. HGH use during the formative years just makes sense, and everything you see now is to some extent enhanced, you can't get around it, we can only debate to what extent.

Basketball is the biggest joke in the world, rookies tested 2 times in 1 year after that everyone is tested once during the preseason only.