Greg Oden found to be 48 Years Old

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Winnow
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Winnow »

Sylvus wrote:
noel wrote:Garnett won't go anywhere and won't win shit. Grats KG on being a second-rate Karl Malone.
He's a first-rate Karl Malone!

Isn't Garnett my age or so? He could still play for like 10 more years if he wanted, he could definitely go somewhere and win a trophy.

P.S. I hate Karl Malone. And John Stockton. And pretty much anyone who was on the Jazz in that era. If I saw Jeff Hornacek in a dark alley I'd stab him in the eye with a rusty knife.

Horny had some good years with the Suns before heading to Utah as well so that's even more reason to hate him!

Here's what I know (in my own mind!):

Garnett's getting traded
Marion's getting traded

The only way the Suns get Garnett is via a three way deal involving Boston or Chicago (or some other team but those seem the most likely). Of those two, Chicago wants Marion more and has more to offer in terms of draft picks for Minnesota.

I've heard so many rumors regarding Marion though that Garnett is just one more to add to them. The more I think about it though, I think the Suns could manage to keep most of their team together and still get Garnett.

Something like Shawn Marion, 23rd pick, 28th pick, Atlanta's 2008 1st round pick, and someone like Diaw or Barbosa could get the job done. The Suns could then Sign Grant Hill to a minimum vet contract to help replace the lost player and then make some more small moves to polish things up.

Nash
Bell (Barbosa too hopefully)
James Jones/Grant Hill (Diaw if Barbosa goes)
Garnett
Amare

Weeeee!

There was a Marion rumor with Detroit but Dumars said the Suns were asking for two Detroit Starters and both of Detoit's first round picks. lol. WTF. I guess the Suns weren't really serious so just asked for something ridiculous just in case.

I do think the Bulls can put something together for Marion though and Marion's from the Chicago area so he'd be happy.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by masteen »

I loved watching the Stockton/Mailman Jazz. It was a treat to see such and old-fashioned and simple offense absolutely frustrate so many playground dummies.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by noel »

Karl Malone is considered the greatest power forward of all time. Perhaps now after Tim Duncan, but still...

I hated that version of the Jazz as well, but when Malone came to the Lakers I was fine with him.

I seriously doubt Garnett gets traded.

Kobe's not going anywhere no matter what stupid shit he does.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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noel wrote:Karl Malone is considered the greatest power forward of all time. Perhaps now after Tim Duncan, but still...

I hated that version of the Jazz as well, but when Malone came to the Lakers I was fine with him.

I seriously doubt Garnett gets traded.

Kobe's not going anywhere no matter what stupid shit he does.

Duncan's better than Malone but I always think of Duncan as a Center even though they call him a Forward just like Amare's a PF even though he's listed as a Center.

Suns trade update:

-Marion, Picks and Kurt Thomas' expiring contract for Garnett
-Amare for Kobe straight up

Latest projected Roster:

Nash
Bell
Kobe
Diaw
Garnett

I'm going to go ahead and veto this trade though. I think all we need is the Garnett part and Amare for Kobe wouldn't help things after getting KG.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by noel »

Why would you even *want* Kobe for Amare?

Thank God, Steve Kerr who's on the record as saying Kobe's latest bullshit is just that is now your GM.

That alone will give me a legitimate reason to hop onto the Sun's bandwagon. I've been a Steve Kerr fan forever.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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noel wrote:Why would you even *want* Kobe for Amare?

Thank God, Steve Kerr who's on the record as saying Kobe's latest bullshit is just that is now your GM.

That alone will give me a legitimate reason to hop onto the Sun's bandwagon. I've been a Steve Kerr fan forever.
nooooo, I wouldn't trade Amare for Kobe.

When it comes to the big name free agents out there, Garnett fits the Suns needs the most. I don't care if he can get up and down the court as fast as the rest of the Suns as long as he plays Defense and is there when it's a half court possession game on offense.

I'd consider some sort fo Kobe for Marion and other picks trade though if the Garnett deal didn't happen. I hate Kobe but I think he' help the Suns win a championship with Nash feeding him great pass after great pass. Who the hell do you defend? Nash is the best shooter in the league (arguably) and he's at the point. You'd possibly have a three guard setup with Bell (#1 in three pointers last year) and Kobe in the backcourt with Nash. Amare owns the paint on offense and really is improving on defense with his shot blocks and rebounds at least. Stick Diaw in there and you have two great passers, three excellent range shooters (with Nash and Kobe also able to drive to the hoop) and Amare being one of the top finishers in the paint with Diaw playing frenchie point forward and the exact opposite of Kobe in wanting nothing to do with scoring. It'd be madness! Pure madness!

Nash
Kobe
Bell
Diaw
Amare

Hell, even Diaw can drive to the hoop on the rare occasion he feels like it.

So, If I had the choice, I'd go for Garnett first but would strongly consider a trade for Kobe (for Marion/picks, etc) if KG didn't pan out.

Both are longshots but worth considering.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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I think Winnow is on a crack cocaine and forum posting frenzy this week. Chill out bro, and lay off the rock.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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masteen wrote:I think Winnow is on a crack cocaine and forum posting frenzy this week. Chill out bro, and lay off the rock.

This is such a boring time of year for sports. Baseball is a huge snoozefest so the NBA Draft and Trade speculation is the only thing to peak my interest atm and then it's boredom until the beginning of August when the NFL cranks up.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Boogahz »

noel wrote:Karl Malone is considered the greatest power forward of all time. Perhaps now after Tim Duncan, but still...

I hated that version of the Jazz as well, but when Malone came to the Lakers I was fine with him.

I seriously doubt Garnett gets traded.

Kobe's not going anywhere no matter what stupid shit he does.

I think I would have taken Barkley over Malone. Both were good, but I always preferred Barkley's rebounding.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Sueven »

Baseball rules.

That said, anyone have any college players they're particularly enamored with this year?

I have a few hometown favorites.

Jeff Green is going to be a hell of a pro. He has an absurdly high ceiling which he's unlikely to ever reach because of a general lack of aggressiveness, but he has an awful lot of positives. He's athletic, tall for his position, quick on his feet, great wingspan. He's a smart player who hardly ever makes a bad decision or turns the ball over. He has a versatile skill set; he handles the ball well enough to play some point-forward and he has the strength and post-skills to play some 4 in a small ball lineup. He has great conditioning and his fundamentals don't break down when he's tired. He has a nice shooting touch. He's a high quality and versatile defender who can guard players of almost any size (think Shawn Marion).

His versatility makes it tough to predict what sort of player he'll end up being, as it largely depends on what he's asked to focus on early in his career, but I'm confident that he'll be very good regardless. I see him as a sort of Shane Battier on steroids. I'd expect him to wind up averaging 15+ points, 7+ rebounds, 4+ assists, 2+ combined blks/stls, playing heavy minutes, playing tough defense, etc.

Sadly, I think he's best suited, at least at first, to play on a good team. He'd be perfect for the Spurs. They already play a team-oriented style of basketball and wouldn't require him to carry the scoring load, and they desperately need a shot of youth and athleticism on the wing. Maybe the Cavs. He'd be a great replacement for Shawn Marion if the Suns were to get rid of him (maybe try to pick up that 5 pick from Boston? Turning Shawn Marion into (say) Jeff Green, Al Jefferson, and Theo Ratliff's contract would be a steal. Too bad it won't happen).

D.J. Strawberry is also capable of being an NBA player. If the guy gets drafted, it'll be close to the end of the second round, which is too bad, because he has the talent to stick around. His problem is that he's not skilled enough to play full-time point guard, and not athletically gifted enough to play full-time shooting guard, and so it's tough to want to invest in the guy. His shot, first step, and ball handling are all average at best for a guard who'll be expected to have the ball in his hands frequently.

That said, he still has value. He's a great defensive player, and that will carry over into the NBA. He's big enough to guard most 2 guards (although he'll run into problems against big lineups if he's forced to guard monsters like Kobe or LeBron or T-Mac). He's small and fast enough to guard any point guard. He's strong and tough. His shot and his drive aren't great, but are good enough that he can keep defenses honest and prevent them from cheating off of him. Similarly, his ball-handling isn't great, but if he's not being asked to carry the point guard load, then it's more than adequate to allow him to make good plays here and there. He's a hard worker who doesn't get into trouble and has improved drastically with experience. If he gets a chance, I think he'll eventually be a bench player who pulls about 20 minutes a game, plays tough defense, gets on the occasional offensive hot streak, and can be inserted or removed in different situations to create or alleviate matchup problems. I'd take him on my team and I think he'd be useful just about anywhere.

Some other opinions of mine:

Oden > Durant. I wouldn't even spend a minute thinking about this. Oden has made a few plays that hint at his potential. Do you remember that sick game saving block he made in the NCAA's against someone or other? What about that monster dunk he nearly put in against Georgetown in the final four? It seems like there's sentiment out there which says that he's only thought of so highly because his body filled out quickly, and a few years down the line he won't seem much more special than any other athletic 7 footer. I disagree. The guy's a fucking beast. The idea that Oden is the safe pick and Durant is the high ceiling pick is preposterous to me. I don't know if I've ever seen a young guy (keep in mind that I've only been paying attention since 2000 or so) with such a high ceiling. Oden is both the safe pick AND the high ceiling pick.

Other guys I like: Corey Brewer, Al Thornton.

Guys I don't like: Spencer Hawes, Josh McRoberts,

I'll admit it, I'm inherently distrustful of white American players. Why? Name the best one currently in the NBA. Go on, take a guess!
[Show]
It's Mike Miller. Or Kirk Hinrich, depending on what you like.
In order for Spencer Hawes to justify his likely draft position, he would need to become the best white American player in the NBA. It's possible, I guess, but I don't want to throw any eggs into that basket.

Josh McRoberts is ranked low enough that he'd be acceptable even if he didn't become the best white American player in the NBA. But seriously: He's a white kid from Duke. I know that Duke has had a few NBA successes lately-- Elton Brand, Corey Maggette, Shane Battier, Luol Deng. Notice something? They're all black! (at least I think Battier is black). And this from the school that turns out more star white players than anywhere else. Christian Laettner? Mike Dunleavey? J.J. Redick? No thanks, I'll take the safe road and wait until Gerald Henderson or Nolan Smith come out.

By the way, I'm not trying to be intentionally inflammatory. The bottom line is that white American basketball players are in the shitter right now, the same way black American baseball players were in the shitter for awhile (now we have a little bit of a comeback with Ryan Howard, C.C. Sabathia, et all). If anyone has an explanation for why white American players suck so god damn badly, I'd love to hear it. The U.S. National Team's obsession with having at least one white player is becoming a sick joke. You'd rather have Kirk Hinrich than Gilbert Arenas, Allen Iverson, Mike Bibby, Mo Williams, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Ben Gordon, Jason Kidd, T.J. Ford, Mo Williams, Jason Terry, Deron Williams? You'd rather have Brad Miller than Carlos Boozer, Marcus Camby, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, fucking anybody? Come on...

Also, I like Julian Wright, but not Brandan Wright. Why? Dunno, gut feeling.

I agree with Boogahz: I would prefer Charles Barkley and Moses Malone to Karl Malone. Tim Duncan's much better than any of them, regardless of which position he's at. Karl's a great player, I just don't think he's the clear-cut best (or the best at all, really).
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Winnow »

Nice post Sueven.

I don't know enough about the college players in the draft this year to comment although I think the Suns like Corey Brewer and would take him with the 5th pick if they end up getting it from Boston.

Image
Another big factor: Garnett and Suns guard Steve Nash, sources say, have become good friends over the past few years, starting in 2005 when Garnett was one of the first players in the league to call Nash and congratulate him on his first MVP trophy.

The Wolves and Suns have also discussed a Garnett trade. The Wolves, though, naturally want to trade Garnett out of their conference if they can.

If it has to deal with the Suns -- given the strong possibility Garnett won't sanction a move elsewhere -- Minnesota is expected to demand that Phoenix part with Amare Stoudemire in the exchange, as well as a first-round pick from Atlanta in the 2008 draft that is fully unprotected.
Two problems left with the Suns grabbing Garnett...no way will the Suns trade Amare for Garnett...not a chance...I shouldn't have to explain but 24 yrs vs 31 yrs, Amare signed for six more years, Amare 1st team all NBA, monster on offense, improving defense and microfracture concerns gone after the display he put on last year playing every game and making the All Star game and 1st Team NBA. The biggest impact of getting Garnett would be having both Amare and Garnett in the frontcourt with a strong back court, leaving the SF position to tinker with players like James Jones, Grant hill, Draft Picks, etc.

Second problem is the Marion said he didn't want to play for Minnesota or Boston. That's not good. Marion's contract is up after next year as well so the team that got him would want to resign...looks like maybe the Bulls would have to be the third team instead of Boston...or even a four team trade...that's not crazy talk when you have supserstars involved.

---

I also like coach D'Antoni's honesty when talking about a Kobe trade:
Suns’ D’Antoni Laughs Off Prospect of Kobe Trade

Image

By Jerry Brown
East Valley Tribune
June 19, 2007

Those in the Suns camp remain unanimous in their belief that the Lakers aren’t going to trade disgruntled superstar Kobe Bryant anywhere.

But if they ever did, would the Lakers actually trade Bryant to the Suns — one of three teams along with the New York Knicks and Chicago Bulls that are reportedly on Bryant’s list of preferred destinations?

“Are you kidding? That isn’t going to happen, even if we offered them the Grand Canyon as part of the deal,” Suns coach Mike D’Antoni said. “If we had Kobe, would we trade him (within the Pacific Division) to the Lakers? No way.”
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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There is no way that LA would ever trade Kobe. Ever. This is all some bullshit stunt to get the Lakers asses in gear to finally get people around him, which they haven't done.

Same can be said about Garnett. They have until draft time to trade him and actually get what they want for him. He shot down Boston, and there is little shot of going to the Suns. Marion would have been the only option, but it doesn't really benefit either team to do it, since that trade would likely go straight up. And if the above statement is true that Marion doesn't want Phoenix, then it really won't happen. All that being said, I can't really see Minnesota making a move fast enough to get rid of him. Unfortunately though, they will come up really short next year when Garnett can opt out of his contract. So, who knows, maybe someone on that team recognizes that and can get something done.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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This is a good article on how difficult it will be for the Suns to land Garnett even though he wants to come here. The part about him making 28.5 million this coming season hurts unless Garnett will restructure.

I do think the Suns still have a good shot because Minnesota's not going to be able to trade Garnett to any team with him making 28.5 million next season with the option to opt out after next season. The only team that would take him is one that he wants to go to which is Phoenix and then he's probably restructure...so in light of that, the Suns have some bargaining power and might be able to get him for less than you'd think...as for Marion not wanting to go to Minnesota, the Suns still need a three team deal though.

I think Kerr has several things going so if this Garnett thing is just impossible to make work financially, we'll see a decent trade go down elsewhere, most likely with Chicago.
Kerr says Suns are in talks for Garnett

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Jun. 22, 2007 06:38 PM

The Suns often mention how any move they make this summer would be to improve them. Friday's topics confirm that.

Suns General Manager Steve Kerr acknowledged that he has been talking this week with Minnesota about acquiring Kevin Garnett but labeled it as “tough” to pull off. David Griffin, the Suns' senior vice president of basketball operations, talked about the chances that the Suns could trade into the draft's coveted top 12.

A Garnett deal remained a difficult proposition because of Garnett's contract. He will make $22 million in each of the next two seasons, has an early termination clause next summer and the trade kicker actually is all figured into the coming season, making his 2007-08 salary $28.5 million unless he declined a portion to make a trade work.



Player salaries must be within 125 percent, plus $100,000, to execute a trade.

“It's tough because of the contract,” Kerr said of Garnett. “We're listening to everything and we're trying to see what would be possible in that regard. The only way we would do it is if we could make our team better and do it in a financially viable way. So that's what we're exploring. We're exploring a lot of other stuff too.”

Kerr said the espn.com report saying Garnett was “hoping” to go to Phoenix if he had to be traded made the deal “a little more plausible.”

“To get a guy like that, you have to give up an awful lot,” Kerr said. “We have to weigh whether we can even make it work financially and whether it would make us better.”

Because Minnesota is not interested in Shawn Marion — and Marion is disinterested in Boston — there is no three-team option.

Amaré Stoudemire's name comes up but there is an unwillingness to trade a 24-year-old, first team All-NBA center although Kerr said nobody is untradable.

“It would take an awful lot for that to happen,” Kerr said. “We love the guy.”

Kerr said he has talked to eight to 10 teams about deals.

Some must be connected to Phoenix moving up in the draft, possibly with a package of this year's 24th and 29th picks and the pick the Suns get from Atlanta next year.

That inclination to move up was confirmed when Florida power forward Joakim Noah, a likely top 10 pick, told Atlanta reporters that he is working out for Phoenix next week.

Phoenix could be the site of a closed multiteam workout for top prospects such as Noah next week, a league source said.

The Suns had designs on that group until the draft lottery went against the odds and denied Phoenix from acquiring Atlanta's pick, which could have given the Suns the No. 4, 5, 6 or 7 pick.

Noah, Florida teammate Corey Brewer and Chinese star Yi Jianlian even attended Suns playoff games.

“Our chances are actually better to move significantly up than to move into the teens,” Griffin said.

“Three through 10 is certainly a good group and you'd be happy with any of them. If somebody was willing to give you a top 10 pick, you'd probably take it being happy with whoever is there.” Phoenix worked out Italian 6-foot-5 guard Marco Belinelli on Friday. Griffin said Belinelli, 21, is a pure shooter who could hit 40 percent from three-point range in the NBA and play at Phoenix's pace. He used to be a stopper before his scoring role took off. Belinelli, who has no buyout issue, said he needs to be more physical in the NBA. “I want to play like Kobe Bryant because he's my favorite player but we'll see in about one short year,” Belinelli said.

Colorado State power forward Jason Smith and point guards Petteri Koponen of Finland, Gabe Pruitt of Southern California and Aaron Brooks of Oregon are slated for a return visit with the Suns on Tuesday.
If Steve Kerr can pull off some legendary trade a week or so into his new job as GM for the Suns, he'll be tops on the list for executive of the year already...or if a huge deal ends up bad next year, he may have a short stay in his new position!
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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current rumor is: marion to boston, garnett to phoenix, and 5 pick, theo, and jefferson (maybe?) to minnesota.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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Zamtuk wrote:current rumor is: marion to boston, garnett to phoenix, and 5 pick, theo, and jefferson (maybe?) to minnesota.
The biggest issue left is convincing Shawn Marion to play in Boston (or Minnesota). Marion being able to opt out of his contract makes it necessary to have him "sign off" on a deal and be content the same way Garnett must be. I wouldn't want to play for Minnesota or Boston so I can understand how it would be tough to convince Marion to. Marion feels lack of respect so I'd be playing up "you'd be the man!" if I was Minnesota or Boston to get him on board. Sucks losing Marion but I think the Suns treated him very well over his career in Phoenix.

I'm OK with the situation the Suns are in right now. If the Garnett thing doesn't work out, I think we'll get something good for Marion via another trade or even keep him and fine tune the team through a smaller deal to move up in the draft. 24th, 29th, and Atlanta's 1st round pick next year should be enough to move up into the top ten picks this year.

If it works out, I'd like to see the Suns trade one of their first round picks to another team just to dump Marcus Banks' contract as part of the deal.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Winnow »

Not much going on in the rumor department!

There was talk of Lakers/Minnesota deal for Garnett.

Here's latest Susn rumor:
KG and Leandro Barbosa to Lakers

Kobe to Suns

Shawn Marion and Kwame Brown to Minnesota
I think the Suns may up just trading their two first round picks this year and Atlanta's first pick next year for a top ten pick in the draft this year. Boston is starting to work out some lower projected players. The Suns aren't in desperation mode so it's a nice spot for them. At worst, they end up dumping Marion's contract next year and make some nice salary cap space after adding some depth this year to the existing team for a run at the title.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Boogahz »

Kobe going to the Suns would just be one more reason to dislike that team :P
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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So when is the wedding?
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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masteen wrote: So when is the wedding?

I'm thinking it will be sometime tomorrow! Maybe before lunch!

Man, in this day and age, how can you come up with new uniforms like these?

Image Image

The white is sort of ok but the lines are never going to match up. Looks stupid, especially on the road uniforms.

They don't deserve the third pick!
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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Amare better not get traded to Atlanta. That's all I've got to say about that.

If KG can't be had for a deal including Marion, the Suns need to forget about it, grab the 8th pick in the draft and try again with the same core.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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the suns should get rid of Amare for Garnett if they want a chance to past the spurs(which i still know wont happen but it gives them a better chance).They have had enough chances already with Amare and its now or never for steve nash.Fuck the future throw are your marbles in and take the chance,because if your trying to look for a future with Amare with no nash assisting,suns arent going anywhere because Amare has no post game.

In other news,Michael Finley decides to stay and defend his Championship with the San Antonio Champions!!!Fabricio Oberto is dumb for opting out of his contract to get more money,but then again i do not see him as a starter for the spurs in 3 years from now.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Winnow »

Still not much news before the draft tomorrow.

Here's Bill Simmons on why he takes Kevin Durant over Oden with the first pick:
Bill Simmons selects: Kevin Durant, SF, Texas

If I'm Portland's GM, I just spent the last five weeks wondering about Greg Oden. What's his ceiling? Can he be better than Patrick Ewing? Alonzo Mourning? Can he become as dominant as Tim Duncan? Should I be worried about his surgically repaired wrist, or the fact that he might suffer back problems some day because his legs are different sizes? What about the fact that he likes basketball, but doesn't love it? The thing is, all these franchise centers are basically the same -- it just comes down to their inherent will to dominate a game. Hakeem had that will, Duncan has it, Moses had it, Shaq had it in 2000 and 2001 ... for whatever reason, Ewing didn't have it, and neither did Mourning or Robinson. Can you see Oden stepping onto a basketball court and saying, "There's no way we're losing this f-ing game. I'm destroying the other team tonight." For some reason, I can't.

Well, Durant plays that way every game. He's a cold-blooded killer. I hate pre-draft workouts, but didn't you find it interesting that Oden was nervous, awkward and apologetic during his workout in Portland, but a confident Durant strolled in there two days later and blew everyone away? You know what's funny about that? I knew that was going to happen. One guy plays basketball because he was created to play basketball; the other plays because he was bigger than everyone else and it seemed like the logical thing to do. If there was a pickup game and Oden was on one side, Durant was on the other, and your life depended on the game, you'd pick Durant. You would.

So if Portland takes Oden, it will happen because of conventional NBA logic (you always take the franchise center), because their fans are pushing for him (obviously, nobody watches college basketball in Portland) and because he's a personable, gregarious, likable big guy for a city that's desperately needed a personable, gregarious, likable big guy ever since Bill Walton ditched Portland for San Diego. I'm not saying those reasons are wrong. In fact, I understand them completely. But if I'm Portland's GM, I'm taking the guy with a legitimate chance to go down with Bird, Magic, MJ, Baylor, Oscar, West, Duncan, Pettit, Havlicek and every other great non-center who ever played in the National Basketball Association. I'm taking Kevin Durant.

Chad Ford and Bill Simmons go at it here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... aft/070627
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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Oden just went number one!
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Zamtuk wrote:Oden just went number one!

Stop following him into restrooms!
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Jeff Green

Goes #5 to the Sonics. I'm psyched about this. If the Sonics re-sign Rashard Lewis, they'll have quite a team. Imagine a core built around Jeff Green, Rashard Lewis, and Kevin Durant. Each guy is minimum 6'9, all can handle the ball, all can shoot threes, all can post up. Having them in the middle of the court will be a nightmare to deal with. Seattle also (currently) has Delonte West, Luke Ridnour, and Earl Watson as little guys, with Nick Collison, Johan Petro, Robert Swift, and Mouhamed Sene as big guys. If any one of those big guys pan out, they'll be a scary team. It would be so easy for them to go big or small-- throw two little guys in there and they can run you off the court, throw two big guys in there and they don't have a player under 6'9 on the court. If one of the big guys can step up defensively, they also have the talent to be a scary defensive team, especially if Earl Watson sticks around and gets some minutes. I don't know that they will be good defensively right away (or at all) but they have a lot of potential. Probably my new second favorite team.

D.J. Strawberry

He got drafted! The Suns took him at number 59. If he actually gets time, the Suns might have to take that second-favorite title. He's gotta be better than Marcus Banks.

The Sixers

Ended up with Thaddeus Young, Jason Smith, Derrick Byars, Herbert Hill. I'm unsure what to make of this draft. Young and Smith would both be great fits if they pan out, but both are underclassmen and supposedly have more work to do. I haven't watched either player extensively and don't really have an opinion as to whether they will pan out. Young is supposed to be a hard worker, so that's good. Byars and Hill sound to me like flyer picks, just sort of hoping that they end up being valuable like, say, a Ryan Gomes. We also drafted that enormous Ukrainian guy, but I'm not sure what happened to him-- must have gotten traded, I guess?

I guess this is sort of a wait-and-see draft. And I'm happy with rebuilding at this point. But, if we're drafting young talent to develop, we should probably trade away Andre Miller while he still has value. There's no point in having a good, veteran point guard who will be going over the hill right when your young roster is coming into its own. Maybe we think that the young guys need a mentor or something.
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Sueven wrote: D.J. Strawberry

He got drafted! The Suns took him at number 59. If he actually gets time, the Suns might have to take that second-favorite title. He's gotta be better than Marcus Banks.
It looks like Steve Kerr kept trying to trade up in the second round to get Strawberry but they got him anyway without making a move. Shows they really wanted him though.
D.J. Strawberry will be the steal of the NBA draft. Mark it down..

""D.J. is one of the best all-around guards in the country and has earned a national reputation as that type of player. He has sacrificed for us by playing point guard, but I think this will be a season where it all comes together for him." " - Coach Williams..

"Strawberry built a reputation for hard-nosed defense. During his senior year, he was involved in a nationally-televised matchup against St. Vincent-St. Mary High School of Akron, Ohio, where he was assigned the task of defending their star player and future NBA superstar LeBron James. Strawberry was lauded for his efforts, which included holding James to a 33% shooting performance (0-for-8 from beyond the three-point line) and forcing him into seven turnovers."

For all you Suns fans crying for a backup PG.. There ya go.. We will enjoy this pick during the season. Mark it down.. In D'Antoni's system.. He will flourish..
Suns aren't done yet. Word on the street is that Phoenix is still getting KG. Got 3 million for selling the draft pick and cleared some more cap space trading James Jones to Portland for a trade exception.

Pretty sure we'll get Grant Hill for our bench and that he'll get playing time which is an upgrade from what we had. Maybe PJ Brown as well. Not sure on PJ. I know he's been solid rebounder over his years as I used to draft him in fantasy basketball for that reason as a scrub pickup...but it's been a lot of years. I suppose if we get him really cheap.
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My Warriors cleaned the hell up. J Rich was a spectator in the run and gun style far too much, I loved his heart but he needed to go. 10 million exception thanks a ton Charlotte.

Brandon Wright and Biedrens make a nice running 1/2, Belinelli will do wonders under Nelson. Great draft and we now get to play in the Free Agent market with a 10 million exception.
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Pherr the Dorf wrote:My Warriors cleaned the hell up. J Rich was a spectator in the run and gun style far too much, I loved his heart but he needed to go. 10 million exception thanks a ton Charlotte.

Brandon Wright and Biedrens make a nice running 1/2, Belinelli will do wonders under Nelson. Great draft and we now get to play in the Free Agent market with a 10 million exception.

Grab Marion with that! You can be the third team that lets the Suns get KG! Marion is the ultimate player for your offense and style of play. It's looking like we'll eventually get KG for a deal including Shawn Marion and not Amari so the Warriors may as well be the team to get him. I'd like to see Phoenix and Golden State as the top two teams in the West this year. (if Baron Davis' body doesn't break down which should be your #1 concern)

What's up with Barnes? Going to resign him or let him go? Can give him to the Suns as part of the Marion deal!
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I loved the draft. My primary team, Miami (for no other reason than I really like Dwyane Wade and Shaq (now)) got Daequan Cook, which while I wanted him to stay an extra year, makes me really happy.

My new west team is obviously Portland. They cleaned the fuck up on the draft. BTW Masteen, your boy Taureen Green better be good!
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Zamtuk wrote: My new west team is obviously Portland. They cleaned the fuck up on the draft. BTW Masteen, your boy Taureen Green better be good!
I can't wait to see the first Phoenix vs Portland game to see how Oden handles Amare. Zach Randolf used to do pretty well vs the Suns. If Oden plays well against Amare I'll be impressed and Portland will be heading for more wins.

It must be nice having Paul Allen as the owner for Portland. He found a way to use his money by buying draft picks. That doesn't count against the cap. I'm not sure I like the Suns selling #24 for 3 million plus basically giving James Jones to Portland as well to clear more cap room.

We'll start learning a little more about what Phoenix has planned tomorrow when free agency begins. I'd like to see Grant Hill signed right away. Word is that he has been promised a starting spot on the Suns. (easy enough to do by sitting Diaw on the bench) so you'd have

Nash
Bell
Hill
Marion
Amare

The bench would be Barbosa, Diaw and K.Thomas being the primary backups and Rookie Strawberry replacing Nash on his rest breaks. We might get PJ Brown as well who could spell Amare/Thomas.

As for Alando Tucker out of Wisconsin, I'm not sure how much playing time he'll get or know anything about him except that he beat out Greg Oden for Big Ten Conference Player of the Year honors! They say he has a great vertical, but when I watched a youtube video of him play, he didn't dunk once and kinda played the power type game under the hoop throwing up layup shots off the backboard.

This, of course, is if nothing major goes down with a KG trade or something.
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T. Green can be good on the right type of offense. He's not going to score 40 from the point or anything, but he's a good passer and can make teams that don't have a man on him the second he crosses halfcout pay, big time. He sometimes gets a little down when his shots don't drop, but is easy to get back on track.
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The Magic are 1 piece and 1 year away from contending for the East. Getting Lewis and bringing in Ewing to coach Howard were huge steps forward. They should keep Darko imo, Lewis Darko and Howard is a brutal front line.
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Suns get Hill

The Arizona Republic
Jul. 5, 2007 09:22 AM

Grant Hill will be a Sun.

Hill's agent, Lon Babby said that Hill told Phoenix today that he would join the Suns in his quest or a championship. There is a moratorium on free agent signings until Wednesday.

Hill was offered the Suns' biennial exception, which will pay him $1.83 million in the coming season and give him a player option to return at $1.97 million for 2008-09. Coming off a seven-year, $92 million contract with Orlando, money was not his biggest lure to Phoenix.

"He established a number of criteria," Babby said. "His opportunity to contribute to a championship would be on the top of the list. He really thought it through and was diligent and concluded this is the best opportunity for his career. He's very, very excited about it."

Hill was drawn by the chance to be on a title contender and an important playing role on a team that fits the 6-foot-8 swingman's versatile style. Hill, who will turn 35 in October, could start for Phoenix with Steve Nash, Raja Bell, Shawn Marion and Amaré Stoudemire. He also will give Suns Coach Mike D'Antoni another facilitator to help run the offense when Steve Nash is resting.

"The opportunity described to him is consistent with what he's looking for," Babby said. "He's not someone looking for anything granted to him but more that he'd have the opportunity to start."

Hill chose Phoenix over Detroit, Orlando, San Antonio, Miami and Dallas. Hill heard phone pitches from each team this week, talking to Suns General Manager Steve Kerr and Coach Mike D'Antoni on Tuesday. He also spoke to Steve Nash at some point, Babby said.

Hill is coming off one of his healthiest season after an Orlando stay plagued by injuries. He has undergone five surgeries on his left ankle, including one that led to a life-threatening staph infection. He also underwent hernia surgery in the fall of 2005.

Hill bounced back last season, just as he did to make the 2005 All-Star Game after rebounding from a four-year battle with ankle injuries that caused him to miss all but 47 of 328 games. Last season, Hill played in 65 games and finished a season in uniform, rather than a suit or a hospital, for the first in Orlando.

"His health is fine," Babby said. "There is every expectation that he will be healthy."

He averaged 14.4 points last season on 51.8 percent shooting and played 30.9 minutes per game. When he has played, Hill has shot 49 percent or better in the past four seasons but he does not have three-point range. Once one of the league's best rebounding swingmen, Hill averaged a career-low 3.6 rebounds last season.

But Phoenix relishes his versatility, court smarts, high character and late-career motivation to win a championship. Hill had pondered retiring before working the NBA Finals for ABC made him want to pursue a championship. His teams have never advanced past the first round in five playoff appearances, including Orlando's first-round sweep to Detroit in April.

Babby said it helped the Suns' chances to have assistant Alvin Gentry on staff. Gentry coached in Detroit for five of Hill's seasons there, including 2 1/2 years that Gentry served as Hill's head coach.
I like this signing. Hill will help stabilize the team when Nash is out of the line up. We are stocked at SF with Marion and Diaw and the Rookie (player of the year over Greg Oden) dude also able to play the position so if Hill can only give 30 minutes or less per game, it's plenty. That's enough minutes to cover for Nash's rest time and when Diaw is feeling soft and French-like.

I hope this inspires Diaw to play a little better basketball when he is on the court.

The Suns need some kind of Center backup now to help Amare/K.Thomas, hopefully a shot blocker, and they're set.

---The real question is, can Hill take a cheap shot from San Antonio? I can see it now...Popovich to Bowen: Sweep the ankles!
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Pherr the Dorf »

You paid him the right price but Grant hill has not been reliable by any stretch of anyones imagination for 30 mins a night.
When he has played, Hill has shot 49 percent or better in the past four seasons but he does not have three-point range. Once one of the league's best rebounding swingmen, Hill averaged a career-low 3.6 rebounds last season.
He fits a hole the Suns have, simply because the Suns are a pretty complete team not because he is a strong player or signing.
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suns fan is still crying because of their mistake lol,but Grant Hill will hurt his legs again since he wont be able to keep up with the suns and he will be useless.

How does this starting lineup sound?
Oberto
Duncan
Bowen
Finley
Parker
with ginobili and horry as the main subs? sounds like a Championship team to me :lol: :D .
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StupidMcDupid wrote:suns fan is still crying because of their mistake lol,but Grant Hill will hurt his legs again since he wont be able to keep up with the suns and he will be useless.

How does this starting lineup sound?
Oberto
Duncan
Bowen
Finley
Parker
with ginobili and horry as the main subs? sounds like a Championship team to me :lol: :D .

Man, do Horry or Finley have kids playing in the NBA yet? They 're ancient!

They've peaked, it's all downhill from here! If Bowen actually gets suspended a few times this year for his dirty play, the Spurs will strugle to make the third seed in the West.

Stern learned his leasson from the god awful Spurs/Cavs finals ratings. He won't let Horry and Bowen cheap shot anymore or Ginobili flop...Spurs are going to have to play some real basketball this year! If Bowen can't cheat and grab Nash's arm anymore, there's no way they'll keep up with the Suns. The Spurs are only as good as bad reffing lets them be.

Suns should be going for their 4th straight title this year!
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Winnow wrote:Stern learned his leasson from the god awful Spurs/Cavs finals ratings. He won't let Horry and Bowen cheap shot anymore or Ginobili flop...Spurs are going to have to play some real basketball this year! If Bowen can't cheat and grab Nash's arm anymore, there's no way they'll keep up with the Suns. The Spurs are only as good as bad reffing lets them be.
Either that or Stern learned that the East has been sucking lately :P
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Boogahz wrote:
Winnow wrote:Stern learned his leasson from the god awful Spurs/Cavs finals ratings. He won't let Horry and Bowen cheap shot anymore or Ginobili flop...Spurs are going to have to play some real basketball this year! If Bowen can't cheat and grab Nash's arm anymore, there's no way they'll keep up with the Suns. The Spurs are only as good as bad reffing lets them be.
Either that or Stern learned that the East has been sucking lately :P
Amen! The West's dominance has led them to a 3-2 Championship record over the last 5 years! :roll:
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Sylvus wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Winnow wrote:Stern learned his leasson from the god awful Spurs/Cavs finals ratings. He won't let Horry and Bowen cheap shot anymore or Ginobili flop...Spurs are going to have to play some real basketball this year! If Bowen can't cheat and grab Nash's arm anymore, there's no way they'll keep up with the Suns. The Spurs are only as good as bad reffing lets them be.
Either that or Stern learned that the East has been sucking lately :P
Amen! The West's dominance has led them to a 3-2 Championship record over the last 5 years! :roll:
The rest of the West can't be held responsible for the Mavs legendary collapse in the finals!

I'd still like to see an NCAA type seeding of all teams no matter what conference in the NBA.
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Sylvus wrote:
Boogahz wrote:
Winnow wrote:Stern learned his leasson from the god awful Spurs/Cavs finals ratings. He won't let Horry and Bowen cheap shot anymore or Ginobili flop...Spurs are going to have to play some real basketball this year! If Bowen can't cheat and grab Nash's arm anymore, there's no way they'll keep up with the Suns. The Spurs are only as good as bad reffing lets them be.
Either that or Stern learned that the East has been sucking lately :P
Amen! The West's dominance has led them to a 3-2 Championship record over the last 5 years! :roll:
Should we say "west's" dominance? or spurs dominance 3-2 over the east over the last 5 years :D
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Fisher to the Lakers for almost 5 million a year... way to improve your team long term LA
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Most teams can only dream of having a beast like this on their team. Sure, Duncan is better, but Amare is more fun to watch!

Amare before and after the knee surgeries:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WNmvvm85veQ& ... ted&search

I think most here can finally agree that he made a full recovery from the knee surgeries against the odds (Played in every game, made the all star team, and was 1st team all NBA) and if he lost any quickness or leaping ability, it's hard to tell.

Love the blocks in the beginning of the video! If he did more of that, he'd be a hall of famer. Like him or not, he's one focused dude. He's been working out on the practice court (with Diaw who really needs to rebound from last year) and is focused on improving.

It's Summer League and all, but the Suns two draft picks are looking good. They may get one minute of playing time combined every other month if they keep this up.

This is actually a better Amare video but it doesn't break down pre-post knee time periods: (has Marion in 2nd half of it!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuL1OWxbFUI&NR=1

Marion is freaking fast! It's interesting watching the highlights of the Matrix after seeing Amare's in the 1st part. What a great combo for entertaining dunks. Power and Finesse! Any team that hesitated in taking Marion in a trade is nuts. Glad he'll be back for another season if it ends up that way.
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This is what's great about Amare. He's a first team all MBA player and he's going to try and win the "Most Improved" player award this year. He's a focused player. Last year showed how dedicated he is to improving his game and coming back from injury.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id ... type=story
Sunday, August 19, 2007
Updated: August 20, 12:32 PM ET
Stoudemire trying to go from superstar to most improved
By J.A. Adande
ESPN.com

LAS VEGAS -- There went Amare Stoudemire, talent coursing through all 6 feet, 10 inches of him, running down the court at the Team USA practice, prompting former Georgetown coach John Thompson to lean forward in his sideline seat and wonder aloud the same thing that crossed many NBA minds this summer: "I can't imagine why the Suns would even think about trading Amare."

He's 24 years old, coming off a season of averaging 20 and 10, and capable of making you forget he's had multiple knee surgeries. But the Minnesota Timberwolves were making Kevin Garnett available and, as a Suns insider said, "You have to listen." Stoudemire's name came into the various scenarios, including a three-way trade with the Atlanta Hawks, but things never got serious enough to plan a news conference.

The Suns listened, and that was about it. They didn't make the move to get a former MVP and 10-time All-Star. Maybe it's because they realized something: Amare Stoudemire must be the most important player in the NBA.

If you believe that the letter-of-the-law suspension of Stoudemire for Game 5 of the Western Conference semifinals is what cost the Suns the series and ultimately the championship, you're basically saying one player in one game would have changed the entire postseason. (Boris Diaw was also suspended, but he was averaging 5.6 points that series, with almost as many turnovers as assists. Stoudemire was doing it to the Spurs, averaging 26.4 points and 10.6 rebounds. That's why the suspension was about him.)

I throw that little extrapolation at Stoudemire, while he's getting ice bags taped to his knees by athletic trainer Keith Jones after a Team USA practice in Las Vegas. Jones chuckles at the logic.

"You like that, huh, Keith?" Stoudemire says.

Jones smiles, nods and keeps rolling the tape. Stoudemire doesn't shy away from the premise.

"It could have happened that way," Stoudemire says of the no-suspension scenario. "There's no proven fact that it would have happened that way, but we definitely would have had a great chance of becoming champs if I would have played Game 5."

He doesn't speak with bitterness. In fact, Stoudemire and the Suns were involved in the biggest controversy of the playoffs, the biggest controversy of the offseason (the Tim Donaghy scandal) and the biggest trade rumors of the summer, yet none of those topics makes him raise his voice.

On the suspension for leaving the bench during an altercation near the end of Game 4 against San Antonio: "I wasn't upset. I was kind of OK with it, because it is the rule. It is what it is.

"That's how you prevent those type of serious altercations, by keeping guys on the bench. But you do have to show support for your teammates and make sure they're OK. There's some gray area there, but I think it's a fair rule."

On losing Game 3 to the Spurs in what turned out to be the last game Donaghy officiated before resigning and pleading guilty to providing inside information to gamblers: "It's tough to come to grips [with], but we have no control over that area. All we do is just play the game of basketball to the best of our ability."

On talk that he was headed to Minnesota or Atlanta in a trade for Garnett: "I kind of figured it was all rumors. As soon as it happened, [Suns president] Steve Kerr gave me a call. Coach [Mike] D'Antoni gave me a call. From the front office on down, they called me and said it's only rumors, don't worry about it."

That's it. No rants about the absurdity of an outdated rule costing him a critical 48 minutes just because he strolled down the sidelines. No accusations of the Suns being on the wrong side of a betting fix. No tirades about being disrespected because his name came up in trade talks.

I'd like to see what would happen if he did get in touch with his inner Incredible Hulk, channeled some Garnett-like intensity, snarled, declared the paint off-limits, took over an entire series.

Then again, imagine the self-control it takes for him to simply be a functioning citizen. He has always been surrounded by turmoil, yet he never succumbed, always paddling stronger than the pull of the whirlpool's vortex. His mother has been in and out of jail for most of his life, his older brother is in prison, and his half-brother was arrested on suspicion of murder this summer.

Yet Stoudemire seems to find more stability on his own. He's becoming embedded in Phoenix, taking classes at Arizona State, and making charitable and promotional appearances for the Suns.

Can't question his desire, not after he came back from microfracture surgery on his left knee in 2005 and arthroscopic surgery on his right knee in 2006. This time a year ago, his knee wasn't even well enough to let him play with the national team in the World Championship.

"I was close to being ready last year, but I was still favoring my knee," Stoudemire says. "I wasn't quite there."

Can't question his confidence, either. When I suggested it could be a compliment that the trade rumors meant he was equal to Garnett, he said, "I guess you could look at it that way. But I'm not really trying to be equal to anybody. I think Kevin's a great player. But I'm trying to raise the stakes on my end."

When asked how far he can take this, he says, "If the sky's the limit, and the sky's clear, I guess you can figure it out from there."

And he wants to get better. Suns assistant Phil Weber has set two goals for Stoudemire: win the Most Improved Player award and be named the NBA Finals Most Valuable Player.

I don't know how you can improve on being first team All-NBA. First team All-NBA Ultra-Platinum Edition?

Stoudemire has his own ideas.

"Just improve on the skills I didn't have last year," he says. "It's going to be tough, but I think most improved is when you improve on the things that you didn't do the year before and you couldn't do the year before.

"Outside shooting, ballhandling, playmaking, all of that's going to come into play next season."

He left out a key ingredient: leadership. Willing himself to be the dominant force on the team and forcing everyone else to follow. Because maybe we've learned that Steve Nash, as "valuable" as he is, can take the Suns only so far. It's like the NASCAR question: Is it the car or the driver? The Suns have Jeff Gordon at the wheel, but maybe we should be talking about the engine. That would be Stoudemire.

With Kurt Thomas gone, Stoudemire stands as the Suns' only real big man, which makes him even more vital.

You never know when injuries or payroll concerns will conspire to undo this magical Suns team. This could be the last go-round for them. And whether this run ends with a championship depends on if the league's most important player can really deliver on his quest to be its most improved.

J.A. Adande joined ESPN.com as an NBA columnist in August 2007 after 10 years with the Los Angeles Times. Click here to e-mail J.A.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Boogahz »

So, he got re-drafted?
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

BTW....the reason for the decline of the white NBA player is the move towards the complete playground crap that is the NBA since the late 90's. The white boys don't have the flash that brings the cash. Of course this playground crap makes these jokers look like complete idiots in international play since none of them know what actual team basketball looks like. That style of play officially ended with the original Dream Team.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

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Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:BTW....the reason for the decline of the white NBA player is the move towards the complete playground crap that is the NBA since the late 90's. The white boys don't have the flash that brings the cash. Of course this playground crap makes these jokers look like complete idiots in international play since none of them know what actual team basketball looks like. That style of play officially ended with the original Dream Team.

Nash seems to do ok! He can't slam (or never does) yet is amazing to watch in action. Dan Majerle was also fun to watch and could also throw it down. "Thunder Dan"...his slam over Super Twig 7 foot Manute Bol was a classic. Jeff Hornacek wasn't flashy at all buy a solid NBA player.

There's still room in the NBA for fundamental basketball. Nash proves that having at least one player that can handle the ball and distribute is key even on a team of highly athletic dunkers.

Dirk, on the other hand...not so good! Nash 3X MVP! Still though, it was two honkys vying for the MVP with no blackies in sight. It's hard to say that talented white players aren't recognized by the league and fans.

Suns got screwed in so many ways last year. Nash should have gotten MVP and just put Dirk to shame performance-wise in the playoffs last year (and had a great regular season as well), Thug Spurs got away with murder while being aided by refs actually fixing the game. despite all of these atrocities, the Suns will be back stronger than ever.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Sueven »

Nash seems to do ok! He can't slam (or never does) yet is amazing to watch in action. Dan Majerle was also fun to watch and could also throw it down. "Thunder Dan"...his slam over Super Twig 7 foot Manute Bol was a classic. Jeff Hornacek wasn't flashy at all buy a solid NBA player.
The white boys don't have the flash that brings the cash.
Now, I think that all this talk about immature NBA players not knowing how to play real team basketball is total crap. But I'm not going to argue about that right now, it's a well-beaten horse.

However.

Did you know that there are many fundamentally sound BLACK players in the NBA? Tim Duncan. Jason Kidd. Michael Finley. Kevin Martin. Deron Williams. Ray Allen. Bruce Bowen. Kevin Garnett. Carlos Boozer. Elton Brand. Rip Hamilton. Andre Miller. Luol Deng. This list could keep going for a long time.

There are selfish white players and selfish black players. There are black players who get by on physical gifts and a minimum of dedication, and there are white players who get by on physical gifts and a minimum of dedication.

The argument that the NBA has degenerated into a selfish free-for-all is OK. I disagree, but it's a legitimate argument. Racializing the argument is horribly inappropriate and only serves to validate those who think that the first argument, in itself, is subconsciously racist.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Of course there are black players that are fundamentally sound. But as you asked, there is not one superstar white player from the US in the league at all. And again I say, most white kids playing basketball are not as gifted with the flashy playground skills. They make it to higher levels (ie NBA) by being 3 point shooters or great passing guards.

That is not to say there are not great white college players....but the college game is a MUCH more team oriented style than the NBA has been over the last 15 years. That is why you have the Adam Morrisons and Duke players vying for player of the year there and then never hear from them again.
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Re: NBA Draft Musings

Post by Sueven »

I don't agree that players like Adam Morrison and J.J. Redick suck in the NBA because of a lack of team-oriented play. I think they suck in the NBA because they're not good enough to cut it. There are talented white players who transition just fine from college to the pros (Hinrich, Miller). You cannot convince me that two guys like Morrison and Redick, both of whom have particularly flawed games and very little natural athleticism, would be superstars in the NBA if the NBA only played a more team-oriented style.

I'm unsure why there are no white American superstars. I think the most likely explanation is social/cultural: great white athletes are filtered to other sports, mostly football and baseball. Further, since a greater % of white kids in general have more opportunities available to them, they may fixate less on sports, which could lead to either less-developed athletic abilities or less interest in pursuing a sports career.

Still, it's hard to shake the appearance that black athletes are able to reach a higher athletic peak than are white athletes, at least with respect to the sort of athleticism necessary in basketball. You really just about never see white guys who can do the crazy shit that players like Vince, Kobe, Josh Smith can pull off in an athletics sense. Again though, I think this is just a false appearance-- guys like Chris Andersen can certainly leap and dunk, Brent Barry won a dunk contest, Manu Ginobilli is a sick athlete (he's white Argentinean I think), and so on.
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