Greg Oden found to be 48 Years Old

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 11, 2007, 12:28 am

Leonaerd wrote:500 VVs on Pistons winning in 5 games.

I hope you realize that if the Pistons sweep you don't win this bet!

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » May 11, 2007, 8:17 pm

Bitch.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » May 12, 2007, 3:25 am

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 12, 2007, 5:08 am

Great Slam by Baron tonight! It reminded me of Kevin Johnson's slam on Hakeem Olajuwan.

It's great when the little guys put one down on the big time shot blockers.

That first pic is photoshopped though!

A couple PG KJ dunks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqoSdFdV ... ed&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifx_gRF- ... ed&search=

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 12, 2007, 10:58 pm

What a bullshit fucking call on Amare. And what was that extremely late phantom call by the ref way back at half court on a Ginobili drive?

The refereeing in this game is disgusting. Maybe the NBA is fixed afterall or being a dirty team is what you're supposed to be. Nice try by Horry to pick up a foul on Amare by pulling him down.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 13, 2007, 1:30 am

It goes both ways. Nash is (in)famous for pump-faking and then jumping INTO the defender to "draw" a foul.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 13, 2007, 2:10 am

Only saw a bit of the game, but the officiating was absolutely horrible. I hope the Suns can win the next one and really make a series of this. =\

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 13, 2007, 2:25 am

I like Popovich. I think he's the best coach in the NBA but I don't like the Spurs style of basketball and I hate their "veteran" tricks used to get fouls. It's blatant and not good for the game imo. Sure, Duncan can stick his hip out to draw a foul, Bowen can grab arms or Horry can use the fall down while holding onto the other player to try and draw undeserved fouls. People seem to view these as "veteran" plays but I think they screw with the game and put it more in the hands of the refs than the players. I'd rather see a more free flowing game. You can still play hard nosed defense but the tricks used to pick up fouls on players on purpose should be looked at carefully. The foul that Amare picked up where Fabricio Oberto flopped was just ridiculous and no way should have been called. That gave Amare four fouls early in the 2nd and basically screwed the Suns. Sure, let Amare pick up a real foul but not that bullshit. I'm sure you missed Duncan hacking away on Amare (announcers poiinted it out as an easy foul to call) and not getting called or miraculously when two players to up and a foul is called, it's not Duncan that gets called.

It does go both ways but the Suns aren't as "dirty" as the Spurs. Teaching your players to flop shouldn't be the way to build a championship team. Ginobili is famous for his flops, as is Horry. Just type in Bruce Bowen in You Tube and see a long list of injuries caused by him.

I'd much rather see Golden State (and Phoenix) style of defense than flop/trick "veteran" fouls. Phoenix has made the NBA realize that their style of basketball is the most entertaining for the fans. Now they need to adapt the way they referee games to reflect that and reward swarming/speed defense over grab an arm/flop WWF style defense.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » May 13, 2007, 2:27 am

While the officiating was crap, the Suns just crumbled at the end. It happened right as Nash was kneed in the balls and Amare drew that foul. They were frustrated and both teams just started getting nasty. While I didn't agree with many of the calls, I was still glad that the Suns lost. All because of winnow!

yeah, im that petty

StupidMcDupid · Post by **StupidMcDupid** » May 13, 2007, 3:01 pm

All i gotta say is that Mike D Antoni is the biggest crybaby I have ever seen,and the spurs are a physical team,cause after all basketball is a contact sport,and its not the spurs fault that the suns are pussies.Also how can u say Ginobili is a flopper, when u see all these scratches and bruises all over his body.and when this series is over,its going to turn into a big rivarly,due to all the drama.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 13, 2007, 3:58 pm

The notion that the NBA/refs are trying to fix this series in favor of the Spurs is completely ludicrous. What's the bigger market, San Antonio or Phoenix? Who plays the more entertaining game? Who has the bigger stars?

There is NO FUCKING WAY that the NBA would fix a series in order to let a small market team which plays the most boring style imaginable and is led by a French dude, an Argentinian dude, and the most boring superstar in NBA history beat a mid market team which plays the most exciting style in the league and is led by too of the most compelling and quotable stars in the game. I'm not saying that the NBA is above fixing a series, I'm saying that if the NBA was going to fix a series, they'd fix it so that it would end in a fashion that would benefit the NBA, not hurt it.

Do you remember how low the ratings were for the Spurs-Pistons finals a few years back? Do you remember how boring that series was? Do you think the NBA wants to see a rematch?

I do agree, however, that the officiating in that game was awful. I also agree that I hate the Spurs and they're exruciatingly painful to watch. Spurs fans, don't delude yourselves into thinking that your team wins by playing some bullshit beautiful-but-fundamentally-sound brand of basketball that TRUE basketball fans love and the ignorant masses hate.

The Spurs succeed because Tim Duncan is by far the best player in the NBA. There's no offensive centerpiece I'd rather have than Duncan. There's no defensive centerpiece I'd rather have than Duncan. The Spurs combine the best player in the NBA with one of the best coaches in the NBA, who instills discipline and defensive effort in his team. He limits the minutes of his best players so they're fresh for the playoffs. He limits Manu's minutes even more because Manu gets out of control and eventually starts detracting from the Spurs discipline. That's why they win: Because they have the best player in the NBA, the best coach in the NBA, a clear and coherent style and gameplan, bench depth, and a high quality supporting cast who buys into the system. The fact that they're good does not convert them into a fundamentally brilliant team who we all ought to love watching because they play basketball the right way. They're the best team in the NBA, but they also play basketball in an uglier and more boring way than any good team I can remember since the late '90's Knicks.

I think that Tim Duncan is the greatest player in the post-MJ era. Shaq is the only other guy that has an argument. The rest of the Spurs are lucky to be playing with him.

Tony Parker is too small to defend big, strong, guards; has little playmaking ability; and has a suspect jump shot.
Manu Ginobili is a streaky player who regularly loses his discipline.
Bruce Bowen is an above-average defender who is boosted to a great defender by virtue of dirty play and the Duncan security blanket.
Elson and Oberto are simply not very good players.
Finley, Barry, and Horry are aging veterans running on heart, fumes, and solid jump shots.

My point isn't to trash any of those players. Some of them are very good. Their weaknesses aren't so serious that a well-coached team can't mask them (obviously). I'm just saying that if Duncan were merely a good big man, as opposed to the best player in the NBA, and if Popovich were merely a good coach, as opposed to the best coach in the NBA, then the Spurs would look an awful lot like the Indiana Pacers.

Finally, it's also ludicrous that so many national columnists are breaking out their "the Suns are disintegrating before our eyes!" columns. Christ: They split the first two in Phoenix, and the Spurs have now won the first of two in San Antonio. It's only been three games, it can't get any closer than 2-1. Phoenix is outscoring SA in the series taken as a whole. If the Suns can win the next one, then they'll head into a best-of-three with homecourt advantage. Phoenix has gotten San Antonio to run. Last night they had to deal with a Manu outburst, an off night from Nash, a dominant night from Duncan, and a generally chippy and poorly officiated game. The series has been well played and hotly contested and to claim that the Suns are disintegrating because they're down 2-1 to a better team (regardless of what the records say) is absurd. The series is far from over.

Boogahz: Nash certainly is a tricky foul-drawer, but his tricks do not create nearly the risk of injury that sticking your feet under a jump shooter, kicking a leaping man in the achilles, or grabbing and dragging a player to the floor do. It's that dangerous play that gives the Spurs (really just Bruce Bowen) a dirty reputation.

Gzette · Post by **Gzette** » May 13, 2007, 4:51 pm

Just to clarify, I'd argue that San Antonio is not a small market team.

Phoenix pop: 1,461,575
San Antonio pop: 1,256,509

SA has Austin TX, which has no pro team, about 100 miles away with a pop of 690,252 and metro area of 1.5 million-ish

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 13, 2007, 5:16 pm

This series isn't over but if they're going to call ticky tack fouls on Amare there's not chance in hell for the Suns. It's all up to the refs. Amare destroys the Spurs. He was scoring a point a minute even last game. The compete bullshit charge called on him early in the 3rd pretty much sealed the win for he Spurs (and the lack of calls on Duncan down the stretch)

The refs determined the outcome of the game on Saturday. The Suns may or may not have won it otherwise but they had zero shot with phantom fouls being called for Ginobili from some ref several seconds after the play from way back at half court.

It just sickens me to see the "dirty" plays like Horry grabbing onto Amare, Ginobili grabbing Amare's feet, Bowen kicking Amare. Christ. Play hard defense but don't pull that bullshit. Even the Pistons don't do that crap. I suppose the Spurs think it's cool as long as the refs let them get away...they just gample they'll get away with it instead of play solid basketball....so again, it's up to whether the refs fall for their bullshit. Duncan is the best big man defender in basketball but his teammates are a bunch of thugs. I'd rather not have to hope that the refs catch all the dirty foul drawing attempts by the Spurs. I'd be nice if they'd just play some honest hoops...oh yeah, they'd can't. They'd lose if they did that.

The Suns aren't pussies. Amare would give them a beat down but he's not a dirty player. He simply overpowers everyone and also has amazing body control to avoid charges and finish plays, even on Duncan sometimes. It's up to the refs to not call fouls on flops like Oberto's.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 13, 2007, 5:18 pm

Sueven wrote:Boogahz: Nash certainly is a tricky foul-drawer, but his tricks do not create nearly the risk of injury that sticking your feet under a jump shooter, kicking a leaping man in the achilles, or grabbing and dragging a player to the floor do. It's that dangerous play that gives the Spurs (really just Bruce Bowen) a dirty reputation.

Re-read my post. I never said the Spurs weren't "dirty."

Boogahz wrote:It goes both ways. Nash is (in)famous for pump-faking and then jumping INTO the defender to "draw" a foul.

I was simply pointing out that sometimes "drawing a foul" does not just mean driving into the lane and getting bumped. Many players will do just as Nash does. He is not the perfect little Boy Scout that Winnow seems to think he is. He can be just as "dirty" as the rest of them.

As to the Bowen conspiracies, I have seen most of the clips with ankle injuries caused by him stepping into a person's jump shot, and I feel the part of the problem which is being ignored is in the rules. Yes, what he does is wrong, but until someone can seriously prove that he does it with the intent of hurting someone, he is simply putting pressure on a shooter.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 13, 2007, 8:05 pm

I agree with everything except this:

Boog wrote:He can be just as "dirty" as the rest of them.

My contention is that while he does make "dirty" plays at times his plays are not the sort that are likely to injure his opponents, meaning that "dirty" means something different for Steve Nash than for Bruce Bowen.

Boog wrote:Yes, what he does is wrong, but until someone can seriously prove that he does it with the intent of hurting someone, he is simply putting pressure on a shooter.

This is pretty much right. Some of his dirty plays are fouls, but they're generally called, at least as often as they are against any other player. Some of his dirty plays aren't fouls, like some of the foot-under-the-jumpshooter moves. But I still think they're dirty, even if they're legal-- it serves no purpose in defending the actual play, it just has a chance of injuring the player and puts the idea in his mind that he may have a foot under him every time he takes a jump shot.

I guess my point is that you're right that he's working within the rules, but as long as he continues to exploit the rules in a manner that most/all other players refrain from doing, he should expect to be hated and targeted.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 13, 2007, 11:58 pm

Sueven wrote:I agree with everything except this:

Boog wrote:He can be just as "dirty" as the rest of them.
My contention is that while he does make "dirty" plays at times his plays are not the sort that are likely to injure his opponents, meaning that "dirty" means something different for Steve Nash than for Bruce Bowen.

Bowen is an exception to the rule I think. He wasn't even mentioned in the original post I responded to. His "dirty" play is on it's own level.

Sueven wrote:This is pretty much right. Some of his dirty plays are fouls, but they're generally called, at least as often as they are against any other player. Some of his dirty plays aren't fouls, like some of the foot-under-the-jumpshooter moves. But I still think they're dirty, even if they're legal-- it serves no purpose in defending the actual play, it just has a chance of injuring the player and puts the idea in his mind that he may have a foot under him every time he takes a jump shot.

I guess my point is that you're right that he's working within the rules, but as long as he continues to exploit the rules in a manner that most/all other players refrain from doing, he should expect to be hated and targeted.

I guess it's a little more than just the portion I put in bold, but that is the segment which I felt needed to be addressed. Why are players instructed to put their hands up everytime someone takes a shot? It isn't so that they can block the shot, it is so that they can get into the head of the shooter. You basically want to become a moving wall in front of the person which is trying to pass/shoot/dribble and cause them to stop. You want to remove any option other than giving up the ball. Now, what Bowen does can have a bigger impact than just making yourself look big and scary on defense, and that's why I said that I felt what he does is wrong. As you mentioned, it is not against the rules. It is defense, and that is one reason he is so damn scary on it.

Regarding "flopping," after watching Nash for years before Ginobli stepped into the picture, they play the same game. The only difference is that Ginobli hits the floor where Nash would just hit other players.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 15, 2007, 1:39 am

Anyone else want to argue that San Antonio isn't a dirty team?

I've always hated Horry. Fucking cock. What an asshole. Diaw better not get ejected for stepping onto the floor. Horry is the only one that deserves to be ejected for slamming Nash into the table.

I thought this game was physical but fair. I can't believe the Suns won it. The Spurs were shooting lights out in the 3rd. Phoenix wasn't playing bad but the Spurs were on fire. Great great win.

Amazing grit. It may be a signature game for the Suns to hang their hats on if they pull out this series.

2-2 now back to Phoenix!

Edit: If Amare and Diaw get suspended for stepping onto the court, it's a fucking travesty. Plain and simple. They are giving the series to the Spurs for Horry basically total cheap shotting Nash in the most flagrant of ways.

If they have to suspend them. Make it for the first game of next season.

StupidMcDupid · Post by **StupidMcDupid** » May 15, 2007, 2:32 am

did u not see the play before when they sent horry flying out of bounds for the rebound? thats why he pushed that pussy off his ass,cause they didnt call shit on him.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 15, 2007, 3:34 am

StupidMcDupid wrote:did u not see the play before when they sent horry flying out of bounds for the rebound? thats why he pushed that pussy off his ass,cause they didnt call shit on him.

Guess you missed Horry yanking on Amare the game before trying to get yet another cheap foul but his weak ass couldn't pull Amare down so he ended up embarrassing himself getting caught and being called for afoul himself.

There's zero excuse for blasting someone out of bounds like that. Horry flops all over the place trying to draw his "veteran" (read: faggoty ass pussy cheap foul attempts)

Amare owns the Spurs and this time, although he had to sit out the first half, the Spurs couldn't pull their usual crap and stop him from winning the game down the stretch.

I'm giving up on the NBA if Amare and Diaw are suspended for game five. You can't determine the outcome of a series because some over the hill cheap foul artist tries to take out the Sun's best player.

I'm sure you think it's cute that the Spurs have cheap shotted their way to a tie in this series. Tonight's game would have been the first that I'd have given the Spurs credit for beating the Suns (they couldn't miss in the third and Duncan had a great game) until they collapsed and went back to their thug ways.

Fuck them. Shameful way to play the game. The Spurs are only as good and the refs let them get away with. Now they may steal a series with unfuckingbelievably unjust suspensions for Horrys ass move.

Should be able to see the play on the video clips here:

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=270514024

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 15, 2007, 12:14 pm

Winnow wrote:Edit: If Amare and Diaw get suspended for stepping onto the court, it's a fucking travesty. Plain and simple. They are giving the series to the Spurs

Yes, Amare and Diaw would be giving the series to the Spurs for their actions if it is determined that they were attempting to get involved in an altercation rather than checking into the game as Amare claimed.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 15, 2007, 12:33 pm

I agree Boog. I don't want them to be suspended, but as the rules currently read, I hope it's determined they were checking in.

The little I saw of the incident, it appeared that Amare's initial reaction was more in the direction of Steve to make sure he was alright. It's a tough rule. I'd think the normal human reaction would be to step in and break it up or assist a fallen teammate. It's a shame we have the Steven Jackson's and Carmelo Anthonys of the league who don't know how to do that.

My favorite David Stern quote of all time: Mr. Jackson was not acting as a peacemaker.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 15, 2007, 2:19 pm

StupidMcDupid wrote:did u not see the play before when they sent horry flying out of bounds for the rebound? thats why he pushed that pussy off his ass,cause they didnt call shit on him.

Yeah, poor little Horry got knocked to the floor when he ran into Ginobli.
Nash had nothing to do with that play.

I mean for fuck sakes, he's a monster compared to Nash. 7 inches taller and 60 pound heavier... is he that much of a fucking pussy that he's afraid of someone his own size?

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » May 15, 2007, 8:36 pm

they just gave the spurs the series... pathetic

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 15, 2007, 8:53 pm

I don't think a one-game suspension guarantees that the Spurs will win the series.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 15, 2007, 10:23 pm

That's the worst decision I've ever seen come down in pro sports.

-rewarding a team for a cheap foul
-completely changing a playoff series
-not in the spirit of why the rule was created.

These guy were on the court (well sidelines where Nash was checked) for all of a few seconds and came nowhere near any Spurs player.

All of the Sun's hard work to win a game in San Antonio is basically taken away because the NBA can't make a simple common sense call.

This opens the door up for hockey-like goons to come into the game looking to injure the other team's stars. Why won't we see Pat Purke come into the game tomorrow night with the purpose of taking Duncan out? (because the Suns don't play dirty)

Guess we'll be putting an * next to this years champion. Suspending Amare and Diaw for taking a few steps on the floor after their best player is blasted into the tables? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Grats NBA on losing all credibility and rewarding dirty play.

David Stern canceled his trip to Phoenix for game five. People are so pissed here, he probably would have been doused in beer or something. There's no way a series should be determined like this.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 15, 2007, 10:31 pm

Winnow wrote:That's the worst decision I've ever seen come down in pro sports.

-rewarding a team for a cheap foul
-completely changing a playoff series
-not in the spirit of why the rule was created.

These guy were on the court (well sidelines where Nash was checked) for all of a few seconds and came nowhere near any Spurs player.

All of the Sun's hard work to win a game in San Antonio is basically taken away because the NBA can't make a simple common sense call.

This opens the door up for hockey-like goons to come into the game looking to injure the other team's stars. Why won't we see Pat Purke come into the game tomorrow night with the purpose of taking Duncan out? (because the Suns don't play dirty)

Guess we'll be putting an * next to this years champion. Suspending Amare and Diaw for taking a few steps on the floor after their best player is blasted into the tables? You've got to be fucking kidding me. Grats NBA on losing all credibility and rewarding dirty play.

Yes, it is in the spirit of why the rule was created. Amare and Diaw broke the rules by leaving the bench to go to Nash's side. They do not have to actually punch someone to be considered out-of-line. They were rightfully punished for their actions.

Also, who did the Spurs send in to injure someone, and who got injured?

Horry was suspended two games for his actions. He was the one that committed the foul, and I feel it was deserved. Worst case scenario is that he returns for game 7 if the series goes that far.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 15, 2007, 10:46 pm

Boogahz wrote: Yes, it is in the spirit of why the rule was created. Amare and Diaw broke the rules by leaving the bench to go to Nash's side. They do not have to actually punch someone to be considered out-of-line. They were rightfully punished for their actions.

Also, who did the Spurs send in to injure someone, and who got injured?

Horry was suspended two games for his actions. He was the one that committed the foul, and I feel it was deserved. Worst case scenario is that he returns for game 7 if the series goes that far.

There's nothing stopping the Suns from starting the five guys on the end of the bench at the beginning of the game and start and all out brawl with the Spurs on the floor.

Some common sense is needed here. Horry intended to injure Nash. It's amazing he wasn't injured...but if he was...all it would have cost the Spurs would have been Horry....so, I say again...if all it's going to cost us is Burke to take out Duncan, why not do it if this is how you win championships?

There's no way with a straight face you can say Amare and Diaw should be suspended for a game if you were objectively viewing what happened and a reaction by two players that went toward their teammate that just got blasted into a table and never got close to anyone on the other team. It's rewarding a huge cheap shot from a team that has dished them out all series. Amazing.

It comes down to an over the hill player taking a season ending shot on the best player of the opposing team out of frustration after losing. This will determine the outcome of the series. There's no fucking way the Suns win with Kurt Thomas as their only big man. Diaw was there last year to fill in for Amare and he's out as well. Sure, they could have a "miracle" win but it's highly unlikely so this decision gave the home court right back to the Spurs after an excellent game by the Suns fighting back in game four to recapture it. I can't believe I even have to explain this.

Spurs are disgusting. Amare was completely correct in calling them a dirty team...the fans must have felt like idiots for chanting "dirty" at Amare after that...nm, they're idiots. They actually gave Horry an ovation as he walked off the court.

The league doesn't care.The championship is starting to go the way of the MVP trophy this year.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » May 15, 2007, 11:36 pm

The rule states if you stand up from the bench during a fight you sit for one game. How is that not in the spirit of the rules?

Cheap yeah, but Amare and Diaw let their team down when they didn't keep a cool head and stay on the bench.

If they had sat like they were supposed to, Hory would still be gone 2 games and the Suns would have all their players.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 12:18 am

Sabek wrote:The rule states if you stand up from the bench during a fight you sit for one game. How is that not in the spirit of the rules?

Ever heard of a dumb rule? (ban on marijuana?)

Ever heard of a rule that's out of date or needed modification?

I know some people would fuck a monkey if it was a rule. I prefer to use a little common sense. Having a hardline rule like that with no flexibility is fucked up as demonstrated by game four's events.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 16, 2007, 12:23 am

This rulign was bullshit. Duncan needs to be suspended too then because he got off the bench in response to a possible altercation. He went past the 3 point line.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » May 16, 2007, 12:40 am

Winnow wrote:
Sabek wrote:The rule states if you stand up from the bench during a fight you sit for one game. How is that not in the spirit of the rules?
Ever heard of a dumb rule? (ban on marijuana?)

Ever heard of a rule that's out of date or needed modification?

I know some people would fuck a monkey if it was a rule. I prefer to use a little common sense. Having a hardline rule like that with no flexibility is fucked up as demonstrated by game four's events.

Stupid rule or not, you can not dispute the fact that it is the rule, everyone knows it is the rule, and amare and diaw let their team down by not thinking before acting.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 1:01 am

You also can't dispute that knees to the groin, deliberate kicks intended to injure, major cheap shots by Horry, are the way the Spurs operate.

If this is how it has to be, the Suns must become thugs and try to take out Spurs players.

Doesn't sound like fun to me. The NBA is basically saying, they aren't going to suspend people unless there's a chance of death on a foul so it's up to the Suns to bring the "hard, pipe-hittin’ nigger" attitude to the game. Kinda lame to have to do that but it seems the NBA is encouraging that sort of play if a better team wishes to advance against a dirty playing team.

I guess next year as the league has screwed the Suns for this one.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 16, 2007, 10:54 am

I love reading Winnow's whines. It makes my day!

Post by **Sylvus** » May 16, 2007, 11:41 am

Winnow wrote:The NBA is basically saying, they aren't going to suspend people unless there's a chance of death on a foul

I disagree. They suspended Robert Horry for 2 games, just as they should have. It was a flagrant, intentional foul, though you claiming that it was clearly intended to injure Steve Nash might be a stretch. I've seen a number of fouls that were as bad or worse than that one.

You shouldn't leave the bench when a fight starts. Everyone should know that after the "Malice at the Palace". I don't remember seeing Reggie Miller or Chauncey Billups do much other than get up, and they (along with Derrick Coleman and Elden Campbell) got 1 game for it.

It's shitty that Horry committed a dirty foul on Nash, but you shouldn't leave the bench when a shitty foul is committed. The end.

Quit crying about * being necessary.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 12:29 pm

*

Won another avatar bet.

Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet

Leonaerd: yet to be seen. So far, he's not in compliance for Chicago/Detroit series going more than 5!

NEXT!

I'm done discussing the unfairness of the suspensions. Reason should have played a much bigger part.

Pat Burke will be warming up tonight like a human weed wacker. Gotta quit whining and start throwing some overhand chops to the adams apple like the other teams do.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » May 16, 2007, 1:46 pm

Winnow wrote:*

Won another avatar bet.

Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet

Leonaerd: yet to be seen. So far, he's not in compliance for Chicago/Detroit series going more than 5!

NEXT!

I'm done discussing the unfairness of the suspensions. Reason should have played a much bigger part.

Pat Burke will be warming up tonight like a human weed wacker. Gotta quit whining and start throwing some overhand chops to the adams apple like the other teams do.

Some see if they can find Winnow's bra strap, because he is whining like a little bitch.

The rule is written so that there is no "reason" to it. It is written so that it is as black and white as possible and there is no what if to it.
It goes like this:
1)Fight breaks out
2)You leave the bench
3)You sit your ass for the next game
4)You let your team down because you couldn't control yourself

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 3:00 pm

I don't care what the rule says. I already made the point that rules shouldn't be set in stone.

The Spurs have been playing dirty the entire series. Why should the Suns think that Horry would even be suspended? Bowen kicked Amare, kneeded Nash in the nuts and nothing really happened to him (that would affect the game).

Horry blasts Nash out of bounds, the league needs to step back and take a look at what's going on and decide whether they are going to support thuggary or some actual basketball without dirty fouls and intent to take out the opposing team's players.

If that's whining, so be it. If a legitimate strategy in the NBA is to commit a hard foul on an all star player with the hope of bringing other players off the bench, it's fucked up. That's all there is to it.

This rule will be changed, but it will be too late for the Suns.

The Suns have been penalized for playing a hard, clean game and winning back home court by an asshole player. Anyone that's a basketball fan should see this pretty clearly. It shouldn't take a Suns fan to see it. I'd think this was bullshit as well if Raja Bell blasted Parker out of bounds and Duncan and Bowen were suspended for taking a few steps on the floor, not coming close to the opposing team, say anything to the opposing team, and were looking at their player to see if he was alright.

Don't really care what you guys think. Seems pretty clear to me I know damn well you'd be singing another tune if this happened to your team. Strain your brains and try to image that scenario.

A rule that fucks up a series, that obviously is a bad rule and is easy to see from watching video of the event, is a bad rule.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 16, 2007, 3:31 pm

Winnow wrote: The Suns have been penalized for playing a hard, clean game and winning back home court by an asshole player. Anyone that's a basketball fan should see this pretty clearly.

Incorrect. They were penalized because two of their own players got up. Not because of Horry (who I btw thought got the suspension he deserved.. even though Nash DID help out a bit which is nothing new for him) but because THEY did not stay on the bench. Unless you consider either Nash or Amare asshole players.. something I might agree with when it comes to Amare hah.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2007, 3:55 pm

I'm largely with Winnow on this one. The NBA was certainly within their rights to suspend them, as they did violate the rules, but it's fundamentally unfair for them to do so. The "do the crime, do the time" defense is bullshit. There are very, very few contexts in which laws or rules actually work this way. Lots of people commit crimes (or break non-criminal rules every day) and no enforcement occurs. That's why discretion is generally built into rule-of-law systems... so that the system can be tweaked to generate fair outcomes, instead of overly formalistic ones.

Some of you are just arguing with Winnow because Winnow pisses you off and you enjoy watching him upset. That's fine, good for you, but at least admit to yourselves that you're just wallowing in schadenfreude and your "rules are rules!" argument is a bunch of crap.

In my opinion, the behavior of the Spurs in this series has now gone well beyond what can be expected to occur as a result of 'tough play.' There have been three major incidents in four games: Bowen kicking Nash in the achilles, Bowen kneeing Nash in the nuts, Horry body-checking Nash into the scorers table. None of these plays were typical basketball plays that might have been a bit more forceful than others, these things do not happen in the ordinary course of play. Interestingly, the victims of these incidents have been Amare and Nash, the Suns best players. If this is just random stuff that goes on in a game, it's an interesting coincidence that Raja Bell and James Jones haven't taken any shots yet.

Ideally, I'd say that Horry should be suspended for one game and no-one else ought to be taken time off. I wouldn't be upset if Horry was not suspended. But, if Amare and Diaw are going to be suspended because Robert Horry attacked their leader, then Horry should be gone for the playoffs and Bowen should be coming under greater scrutiny as well.

The punishments for those three incidents: Achilles kick yielded nothing, not even a foul. Knee to the nuts was a personal foul, upgraded after the fact to a flagrant. Body check was a flagrant-2, yielding two game suspension for Horry and one game suspension for Amare and Diaw. Basically, the Suns have received more punishment for the Spurs' dirty play than the Spurs themselves have. This outcome was NOT preordained, the NBA could have made different decisions with regard to the punishments of both the Spurs and the Suns players. The fact that some of you are defending this outcome, apparently with the argument that "The NBA was within their rights to do it and thus ought to have done it," is stupid.

Post by **Sylvus** » May 16, 2007, 4:19 pm

Sueven wrote:The punishments for those three incidents: Achilles kick yielded nothing, not even a foul. Knee to the nuts was a personal foul, upgraded after the fact to a flagrant. Body check was a flagrant-2, yielding two game suspension for Horry and one game suspension for Amare and Diaw. Basically, the Suns have received more punishment for the Spurs' dirty play than the Spurs themselves have.

That's simply untrue. The punishment for the body check was a flagrant-2. The punishment for violation of rule 12-A-VII-c was a 1 game suspension for Amare and Diaw. Sure, rules are selectively enforced all the time, but the NBA has been bitten by the blight of some pretty ugly fights over the last few years and now is as good a time as any to play bad cop. What better way to discourage people from breaking the rule than by enforcing it at such a crucial, high-profile time? It's less likely to stick in someone's mind if they only enforce it meaningless games in December.

Whether or not the Spurs are playing dirty is a different matter. I'm not trying to say that they aren't, I hate the Spurs. Should they be getting called for more fouls, absolutely. But Horry isn't the mastermind behind a plot to get Amare and Diaw suspended from a game. All the Suns had to do was sit back on the bench and let Horry receive his suspension, and the Spurs would be without a guy who has performed brilliantly in the clutch for a number of teams in a number of playoff series, and has several rings to show for it. Instead they did what has been clearly defined as a "no-no", and the cop didn't feel like being lenient that day.

And yeah, it's partially Schadenfreude at Winnow's misfortune. But it's more a call that could go either way and be argued that it should have happened the other than it is a gross miscarriage of justice.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2007, 4:37 pm

Syl wrote:That's simply untrue.

No it's not. Your argument is irrelevant semantics that you and I are both too intelligent to wallow in.

Syl wrote:But it's more a call that could go either way and be argued that it should have happened the other than it is a gross miscarriage of justice.

I don't really know what this sentence means, but my impression is that you're saying the call could have gone either way, and it's absurd to argue that it's a miscarriage of justice when it goes in one of the possible directions. I disagree. The fact that the call could have gone either way is precisely why it's unjust. When you have a choice as to how to enforce some rules or set of rules, each one being equally permissible under the rules, you ought to ask what the just outcome is and do that. It's in just such a situation that we can criticize rule enforcement for being fair or unfair.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » May 16, 2007, 4:46 pm

It is impossible to have a zero-tolerance policy, which the leave your seat rule was introduced as, and show tolerance.

Therefore if you stand up you sit the next game.

If Amare and Diaw stand and don't get suspended, everyone will say they are giving the Suns preferential treatment.

Post by **Sylvus** » May 16, 2007, 4:57 pm

What is unfair about enforcing a rule that has existed for (at least) several years and was clearly broken, as you said yourself?

Because Bruce Bowen is a dickbag, as everyone has always known, a rule that has been enforced in the past for infractions that were no more egregious than this one is unfair to enforce in this situation? Why? Simply because there is more at stake in this game than in other games where the same punishment has been meted out? Because two of the three people who clearly violated rules in this one incident are much more valuable to their team than the one is to his?

You say that it's unfair to enforce the rule in this situation, and from what I see of your explanation, it sounds like it's because the Spurs have been playing rougher than teams usually do? I don't feel that warrants a pass and makes the Suns' suspensions unfair. If you want to say that more Spurs should be punished in addition to Horry, I won't disagree with that. Bruce Bowen should be playing in a roller derby somewhere, not the NBA.

It's my belief that the rule exists because the NBA wants a zero-tolerance policy on bench clearing brawls. If that's their aim, they kind of need to err on the side of heavy-handedness when enforcing this particular rule.

/edit: yeah, what Sabek said.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » May 16, 2007, 5:10 pm

Winnow wrote:*Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet.

you can't see my avatar anyways. we've had this discussion before.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 5:15 pm

Zamtuk wrote:
Winnow wrote:*Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet.
you can't see my avatar anyways. we've had this discussion before.

I'll change your title then for the two weeks following the draft.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » May 16, 2007, 5:20 pm

Zamtuk wrote:
Winnow wrote:*Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet.
you can't see my avatar anyways. we've had this discussion before.

Who is Odem anyway?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 5:23 pm

Sabek wrote:
Zamtuk wrote:
Winnow wrote:*Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet.
you can't see my avatar anyways. we've had this discussion before.
Who is Odem anyway?

a big black guy

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » May 16, 2007, 5:25 pm

Winnow wrote:
Sabek wrote:
Zamtuk wrote:
Winnow wrote:*Zamtuk: yet to be seen if he honors Odem bet.
you can't see my avatar anyways. we've had this discussion before.
Who is Odem anyway?
a big black guy

There was a big black guy named Greg Oden that played for OSU, but not sure who Odem is.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2007, 5:45 pm

Ah, I see you're from O-hi-o!

land of the potatoe!

The Suns were screwed over. Everyone knows it except Suns haters and Spurs fans.

The Suns need to add a kung-fu master to their roster and go to town on the Spurs tonight.

Unfortunately, they'll just play hard, clean basketball as all teams should.

The"Bad Boys of Basketball" are the real pussies that can't use actual skill to win a game.

Oooh tough guys! They can knee someone in the nuts! or knock someone half his weight on his ass...or kick someone that owned him on the court going up for a slam. That's so cool!

Nash is the real tough guy in basketball. He can survive all that shit and keep trying to play even after taking a hit that would send these bad boys" to the locker room.

http://ryanunderdown.com/2007/05/15/bru ... test-hits/

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » May 16, 2007, 6:11 pm

land of the potatoe? (nice one dan quayle)

thats idaho dumbass.