Handguns

[Sylvus]

I'm interested in what people think. With the horrible events at Virginia Tech yesterday and the associated thread that I'm in danger of derailing too much, could someone please provide me with a reason why handguns are even allowed to be manufactured and sold in the United States?

Handguns account for more homicides than all other weapons combined. Some research has shown that the only statistically significant effect of CCW permits are an increase in homicide rates. If more people are murdered by handguns every year than everything else, and having a concealed weapon for protection has been shown to stastically increase the chances of a homicide, why is anyone for them?

[Xouqoa]

I don't see the point of them, really.

Rifles would still be allowed, but they're a little bit harder to conceal and walk around with so a lot of potentially dangerous situations could be avoided. However, if somebody is breaking into your home or some such, it would be a viable defensive weapon.

The argument of "If we outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will have guns." doesn't really hold up either, since that's such a broad generalization. For example:

If we outlaw twinkies, then only the outlaws will have twinkies.
If we outlaw mops, then only the outlaws will have mops.
If we outlaw pr0n, then only the outlaws will have pr0n.

Whenever something becomes illegal, of course only criminals will have them.. black market, and all that. They have them now though, so there's not much difference there.

[Vaemas]

I'm not a rabid defender who won't listen to reason, but I do own firearms, including two handguns. Due to where I've lived and such, they've been disassembled and locked away for the past several years, but I do bring them out now and then for sport shooting and cleaning. I am interested in source links to your statistical statements.

Now, as to your comment, it seems to me that you are mixing and matching different items.

First: CCW is a separate issue from handgun ownership. In Georgia, there are specific places in your vehicle that you may carry a handgun without a permit. I'm not a law expert, so I'm not going to get into a discussion of where these are. Likewise, there are specific ways in which a person may carry a handgun without a CCW. See previous statement.

Second: Statistically, firearm and/or handgun ownership does not always increase the homicide or other crime rate. If you need me to back this up, do a Google search on "Kennesaw gun law" and read the multiple articles about what mandatory firearm ownership did to the crime rates in Kennesaw, GA.

If the United States were to restrict the sale or ownership of handguns, I honestly believe that the Virginia Tech shooter he would have no issues acquiring a handgun or other firearms to commit the savage crime that he did. Black markets exist for banned or restricted items. Anyone who says differently isn't thinking clearly. Criminals will come into possession of the tools or items they need to commit crime. It's an economic fact.

I'm a firm believer in the second amendment. I'm a firm believer in personal protection. I'm a firm believer in responsible recreation/sport shooting. I'm also a firm believer in thorough background checks, licensing, education, and training.

[Sylvus]

I wasn't trying to correlate handgun ownership and CCW. That was more of a response to kilmoll putting forth in the other thread that if the gunman had known that guns were allowed on campus and that the students might have them, that this would have been prevented. That was the best statistic I could come up with on short notice. I read a number of articles that were referenced in this wikipedia article.

For the record, I own a shotgun and have fired pistols and rifles up to and including full-auto at a gun range that had the proper licenses. It's kind of fun to shoot guns. But I would happily give up shooting for the rest of my life if it would save a single life. I could just go play Operation: Wolf instead.

I disagree with your statements about the black market. The black market's supply of guns comes from guns that were legally produced and purchased at one point. True, there are a huge number of guns on the black market today that would not magically go away if all hanguns ceased being produced tomorrow. But it would become increasingly more difficult for criminals to procure them. Pumping more than a million new handguns (from the US alone) out each year does absolutely nothing to make me any safer, and I believe that it actually makes all of us less safe.

Unfortunately it'll never change, as the gun lobby is too big and too many people think that giving everybody guns will make the world safer. You can't know that for sure, but the only fact I do know is that less people would be killed by guns if no one had guns than if everyone had guns.

[miir]

The Second amendment may have prudent in generations past, but in todays society it's archaic and barbaric.

Much like the Bible!

[Sylvus]

Yeah, I added the second amendment because I figured some people would want to use that as reasoning. Even though I think it's a just a bit outmoded. At the time that was written, not only were there hostile foreigners living in and around our country and neighboring territories, as well as groups of people living in "our" country that were still disappointed that they were displaced from land that was theirs the week before, people were using muskets. Neither the rifle nor the revolver had even been invented yet, iirc.

Just about the worst murdering spree you could go on at the time (involving guns) could have pretty easily been stopped after the first shot when he was uncorking his powderhorn and preparing to load for his next shot.

[Canoe]

Yeah, I added the second amendment because I figured some people would want to use that as reasoning. Even though I think it's a just a bit outmoded. At the time that was written, not only were there hostile foreigners living in and around our country and neighboring territories, as well as groups of people living in "our" country that were still disappointed that they were displaced from land that was theirs the week before, people were using muskets. Neither the rifle nor the revolver had even been invented yet, iirc.

Just about the worst murdering spree you could go on at the time (involving guns) could have pretty easily been stopped after the first shot when he was uncorking his powderhorn and preparing to load for his next shot.

That may be true, but I think the first option (personal defense), and the second amendment go hand in hand.

[cadalano]

A gun ban would just increase the cost to obtain one and create an even more lucrative black market while costing b/millions in taxes to enforce. They would also become even more attractive as status symbols for youth and gangs as they are today. see War on Drugs. see Prohibition.


yes its true that most people who go on these rampages legally owned their gun.. they were just as "normal" as the next guy. But as Vaemas said, if they needed a gun it would not be impossible to find one.


you just cant unring that bell. Guns make it very easy for anyone to kill... theyre simple to make, simple to operate, and already too numerous to attempt to control.

[miir]

A gun ban would just increase the cost to obtain one and create an even more lucrative black market while costing b/millions in taxes to enforce. They would also become even more attractive as status symbols for youth and gangs as they are today. see War on Drugs. see Prohibition.


yes its true that most people who go on these rampages legally owned their gun.. they were just as "normal" as the next guy. But as Vaemas said, if they needed a gun it would not be impossible to find one.


you just cant unring that bell. Guns make it very easy for anyone to kill... theyre simple to make, simple to operate, and already too numerous to attempt to control.

Your theory is flawed.... you need only look as far as Canada or England.

Banning handguns makes it easier to separate the law abiding citizens from the criminals. If a person has a handgun, they are a criminal.

If there are guns in the home, there is potential that gun may be used in a non premeditated crime. That gun may also be stolen and used in the comission of a crime.

If guns are more difficult or more expensive to get for a criminal to obtain, there is less chance that a gun will be used in a less severe crime like mugging, B&E or a robbery.



Nobody is stupid enough to suggest that a handgun ban will eliminate gun violence... but there is overwhelming of evidence to support the argument that it would result in a decrease in gun violence.

[Vaemas]

Proof in point:

A source familiar with the investigation said the weapons found at Norris were a Walther .22-caliber semi-automatic and a 9 mm Glock -- both with the serial numbers filed off.

Bold added for emphasis. Either way you scratch it, that's illegal. Acquired via black market? Maybe. No legitimate gun dealer would sell a firearm with a defaced serial number.

[Neost]

on that note, I believe I read an ATF source quoted as saying he had purchased the guns himself and proceeded to file down the serial numbers but not enough to keep forensics guys from reading them.

I'll try to find it again, i'm not sure which news site I read that on....it may have been a cnn video feed.

[Xatrei]

Yes, it's been widely reported today that the authorities are relatively certain that he purchased the firearms legally, and then attempted to obscure the serial numbers for reasons unknown. Forensic specialists have recovered the numbers and have tracked the guns to the point of purchase. Again, this is according to what's being reported through a few different news outlets, and we've all seen how fluid this story has been, so take it for what it's worth.

[*~*stragi*~*]

I'm interested in what people think. With the horrible events at Virginia Tech yesterday and the associated thread that I'm in danger of derailing too much, could someone please provide me with a reason why handguns are even allowed to be manufactured and sold in the United States?

Handguns account for more homicides than all other weapons combined. Some research has shown that the only statistically significant effect of CCW permits are an increase in homicide rates. If more people are murdered by handguns every year than everything else, and having a concealed weapon for protection has been shown to stastically increase the chances of a homicide, why is anyone for them?

All the reasons you listed. Gun laws _don't_ keep weapons out of the hands of criminals, period.

Here are some other cool statistics from a TFR thread on SA forums

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showth ... id=2401157

http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home/de ... ?serial=62

"From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gangbangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.

Here are highlights of what they learned about weapon selection, familiarity, transport and use by criminals attempting to murder cops, a small portion of the overall research:

WEAPON CHOICE.

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available "was the overriding factor in weapon choice," the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun "because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being."

Also your link about CCW and homicides doesn't really try to make the distinction in actual murders and justifiable homicide. I've seen just as many articles and statistics that say exactly the opposite so it's kind of a never ending battle.

[Funkmasterr]

My guess is that he maybe originally didn't plan on killing as many people - or did but still thought he could get away with it so he tried to file them off. What most people don't understand about filing the serial numbers off is you have to go a considerable ways past where they were engraved to have any chance of forensics not being able to track it anyhow (it's the same way with cars).

Miir, I don't think cadalano's theory is flawed at all. Your comparison with Canada is not really a good comparison because (I am assuming here, but all the same) there are considerably more handguns in the U.S. then there ever was in Canada.

How are they going to get people to give up the guns that they already own? I would be willing to bet that if they started contacting people with registered firearms that magically a whole shit load of people would have burglars break into their house and steal their guns (or some other story). Not to mention the tons and tons of illegal weapons which would still always be available.

[Winnow]

Second Amendment.

There may be better ways to regulate handguns but I disagree with taking them away from U.S. citizens.

Let politicians get on a roll and they'll take away all of our personal freedoms...video games, porn, sport cars, etc. After awhile you won't be able to indulge yourself in any luxury as everything will be narrowed down to what's considered best for society. We'll end up living in padded cells because any sharp object would be considered a potential danger and best to eliminate the object instead of educate and use the object properly.

If the government wants to get unregistered handguns off the streets, offer programs to turn guns in (no questions asked) in exchange for booze, cigarettes, spinning rims, video games, etc.

[*~*stragi*~*]

I don't see the point of them, really.

Rifles would still be allowed, but they're a little bit harder to conceal and walk around with so a lot of potentially dangerous situations could be avoided. However, if somebody is breaking into your home or some such, it would be a viable defensive weapon.

The argument of "If we outlaw guns, then only the outlaws will have guns." doesn't really hold up either, since that's such a broad generalization. For example:

If we outlaw twinkies, then only the outlaws will have twinkies.
If we outlaw mops, then only the outlaws will have mops.
If we outlaw pr0n, then only the outlaws will have pr0n.

Whenever something becomes illegal, of course only criminals will have them.. black market, and all that. They have them now though, so there's not much difference there.

Long guns aren't viable home defense weapons ever.

Think about it, you're in the dark, groggy because you just woke up to the sound of someone breaking in your house or apt. You pick up your high powered rifle and go out into the hallway with very little space and the buglar suddenly charges at you.

Given all the factors in that situation, you probably aren't going to hit your target and the bullet is likely going to go straight through your house and into your neighbors.

And I don't really understand why you would want to punish perfectly normal law abiding citizens by taking away their weapons, that does nothing to solve the problem.

I also love the retarded article I read that said police found a recepit for a 9mm glock he purchased, when they showed the murder weapons on tv, neither was a glock and both supposedly had the serial numbers filed off.

[Xouqoa]

Too bad we can't uninvent gunpowder and have everybody go back to using swords and knives. Things were so much more civilized before guns came around.

[*~*stragi*~*]

crossbows yo

[Nick]

Don't see the point in them unless you're going hunting.

Too many unnecessary deaths from them to justify some rednecks desire to yeehaw his way through a fight. Real men use their fists

[masteen]

Don't see the point in them unless you're going hunting.

Too many unnecessary deaths from them to justify some rednecks desire to yeehaw his way through a fight. Real men use their fists

That crackhead breaking into your house cares nothing for your definition of "real men."

But we license people to operate cars, and they're not designed to kill like firearms are. The fact that the government hasn't implemented something to make sure that people know how to handle and use their weapons safely is pretty fucking dumb. The foundation for it is built into the Second Amendment as well. Well-regulated militia and all that. I say it's time we start regulating.

I'm also in favor of more comprehensive tracking system for the sale and transfer of firearms. The fact that so many guns just fall out of the system every year is ludicrous. People should be liable if they lose a gun or have one "stolen" and don't report it.

[Winnow]

A matter of public record. When President Bush was Govenor of Texas he passed sweeping gun reform; allowed concealed weapons etc. Texas had very restrictive gun laws going back to Reconstruction. From the day he signed the bill into Law, until the end of his term as Govenor, violent crime dropped 27%.

in the old western days..the so called wild west ...there was fewer gun shootings..than today

Similar note, read Liddy's "When I Was A Kid This Country Was Free", I think is the title. Tons of great states on gun crime , etc. 95% of underage gun deaths are Gang and drug related. Not "Johnny in dad's gun locker" , that is so often portrayed.

[miir]

That crackhead breaking into your house cares nothing for your definition of "real men."

If handguns were less accessible and more difficult/expensive for criminals to obtain, a crackhead wouldn't be wasting his crack money on one. You don't need a gun to commit a B&E.



The rest of your post I agree with.

[miir]

A matter of public record. When President Bush was Govenor of Texas he passed sweeping gun reform; allowed concealed weapons etc. Texas had very restrictive gun laws going back to Reconstruction. From the day he signed the bill into Law, until the end of his term as Govenor, violent crime dropped 27%

There is no correlation between the drop in violent crime and gun reform in Texas. Gun related violence/crime is only a small segement of violent crime.

Violent crime rates have been dropping all across the US for the past ~15 years... even in states where gun laws have becomre more restrictive. On the other hand, Gun related violence has been on the rise for the past 10 years.

[masteen]

Gun could very well be from a prior burglary. Does bring up a pertinent point, tho.

There are so many old/illegal guns in circulation that it would take 30 years to get them all off the streets, and that's not even factoring in the almost certain reversal of the flow into Mexico and South America that would happen in the event of a total ban.

[miir]

Gun could very well be from a prior burglary. Does bring up a pertinent point, tho.

True, but if there are fewer guns in circulation, there will be fewer guns falling into the wrong hands.

There is no instant fix.
Gun culture is so prevalent in the US that any changes would have to be looked at with consideration for their long term effects.

There are so many old/illegal guns in circulation that it would take 30 years to get them all off the streets, and that's not even factoring in the almost certain reversal of the flow into Mexico and South America that would happen in the event of a total ban.

Interestingly, the main pipeline for illegal guns into Canada is from the US.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Interestingly, the main pipeline for illegal guns into Canada is from the US.

Is that really interesting? Or does it make 100% perfect sense since Canada shares 3000 miles of border with the US???

[miir]

Interestingly, the main pipeline for illegal guns into Canada is from the US.

Is that really interesting? Or does it make 100% perfect sense since Canada shares 3000 miles of border with the US???

Interesting in that if the US were to adopt anti-handgun laws and much more strigent gun ownership laws, would the existing guns go south or north?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

It will never happen. People will talk about it this week and the next to get face time and look like they are doing something, but it will go away as fast as Jesse Jackson and Sharpton will with their concern over black sub-culture, blah blah blah.

The gun lobbyists will never allow that to happen. Never. No matter how many little, symbolic victories are won by the whiners in this world, the people of power still rule the world. You can forget big victories liek that. Only small symbolic ones will you get.

[Winnow]

So far the poll shows more people that find a reason to have a handgun (even if they don't possess one themselves) than not to have handguns.

The vote is close which is why this will always be a heated debate.

It's hard to say how many of those votes were from non U.S. citizens though so it's probably a bit skewed toward the non handgun side even though not enough to make it a majority even with the foreign vote.

[miir]

The gun lobbyists will never allow that to happen. Never. No matter how many little, symbolic victories are won by the whiners in this world, the people of power still rule the world. You can forget big victories liek that. Only small symbolic ones will you get.

Have you been drinking?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

The gun lobbyists will never allow that to happen. Never. No matter how many little, symbolic victories are won by the whiners in this world, the people of power still rule the world. You can forget big victories liek that. Only small symbolic ones will you get.

Have you been drinking?

No. Unless Diet Green Tea counts as drinking.

[Deward]

Washington, DC has arguably the toughest gun laws in the nation and one of the highest per capita murder rates.

Australia - I can find a source if necesary but after they passed sweeping gun prohibition laws, gun related crimes sky rocketed 100s of percentage points in just the first few months after enacting them.

Here in WI, outside the major cities, you don't hear about many gun related crimes. Criminals know that you will get yourself shot if you try breaking into a farmer's house here.

[Nick]

That crackhead breaking into your house cares nothing for your definition of "real men."

And when was the last time a crackhead broke into your house?

Seriously, is your neighbourhood that bad that this is a regular occurence?

It will never happen. People will talk about it this week and the next to get face time and look like they are doing something, but it will go away as fast as Jesse Jackson and Sharpton will with their concern over black sub-culture, blah blah blah.

This is true tbh.

[Zaelath]

Australia - I can find a source if necesary but after they passed sweeping gun prohibition laws, gun related crimes sky rocketed 100s of percentage points in just the first few months after enacting them.

And I will just as quickly find a source explain what bullshit your source is. IIRC they will talk about one state, and if you shoot three people in Australia the gun crime rate "skyrockets 100s of percentage points" dumbass.

[Winnow]

Australians use boomerangs not guns.

[Boogahz]

That crackhead breaking into your house cares nothing for your definition of "real men."

And when was the last time a crackhead broke into your house?

Seriously, is your neighbourhood that bad that this is a regular occurence?

This actuallly HAS been an issue where I live. The crackhead (heroin addict is more likely tbh) would constantly try to force open doors to apartments in my area and would try to go in through 1st story balconies. Eventually he was found dead in the creek behind my place after a storm...but he didn't drown.

[Siji]

I always get the impression that anti-gun people are the same as the anti-abortion people. Always trying to force someone else's life to be better via their own personal standards.

[Spang]

Having a gun in the home greatly increases your risk of being shot by one.

[Winnow]

Having a gun in the home greatly increases your risk of being shot by one.

Does wearing a skimpy skirt with fishnets increase your risk of being raped? Should skimpy skirts and fishnet stockings be outlawed?

Women going to bed naked increase their chance of being raped if a burglar breaks in. Should women be forced to wear PJs?

[Spang]

I'm not saying one way or the other.

If a person wants to keep a handgun in their home, everyone that lives in or visits that home has a greater risk of getting shot in the ass.

[kyoukan]

Does wearing a skimpy skirt with fishnets increase your risk of being raped?

No.

Women going to bed naked increase their chance of being raped if a burglar breaks in. Should women be forced to wear PJs?

are the only analogies you can come up with sexually violent in nature? you really have to knock it off with this creepy fucking pervert persona.

Anyway, I used to own an illegal handgun when I was younger and single and living in a shitty neighborhood. It was not hard to obtain and it was quite obvious that it was originally legally purchased.

There are justifiable reasons to owning a handgun. They are probably far outweighed by the disadvantages of so many of them being around.

A shotgun is a much better device for home defense than a handgun. The odds of you missing is reduced and it is a lot harder to get it taken away from you.

[Xatrei]

Long ago, I used to own many handguns and long guns. I've never hunted because I don't get into that, but I did enjoy shooting. For a couple years, I had a concealed carry permit, although I rarely carried a weapon with me. I got rid of all of them about 16 years ago, and have never missed them, and have never been in a situation where I wished that I still had a handgun available to me. I think I was a fairly proficient shooter.

Having said that, I think that guns are way too easy to obtain, and are too common in our modern world. There is certainly a distinction to be made between the impact guns have in urban versus rural areas. I don't have a moral opposition to hunting, nor do I have any desire to take sporting weapons away from people. I have absolutely no issue with draconian restrictions on high capacity semi-automatic weapons, however. I have no issues with gun registration and long "cooling down" periods for purchases or strict restrictions on who can buy weapons. I see no problem with denying handguns to the vast majority of people who might want to own one. There's just no real justification for their prevalence in modern society.

Of course determined criminals will always be able to get their hands on guns, but we can do much to reduce the number and relative power of the guns available to criminals. Unfortunately, in this country at least, the cat is out of the bag. There are already too many guns circulating, and no real way to remove them now. I know how I'd like things to be in an ideal world, but I see no practical way to get there, unfortunately.

[Winnow]

Cart's vote could have broke this 24/24 draw.

[miir]

I always get the impression that anti-gun people are the same as the anti-abortion people. Always trying to force someone else's life to be better via their own personal standards.

An abortion is something a woman chooses to have done on themselves.

If gun owners could only use use the gun on themselves, I would change my opinion.

[Keverian FireCry]

No. Unless Diet Green Tea counts as drinking.

WTF is Diet Green Tea?




Bullets should be incredibly expensive, that way criminals will have a harder time affording them while those who need them only for defense purposes won't mind the price because they won't need to buy very many(considering 99% of ppl will never need to use even a single bullet for defense).

[Dregor Thule]

WTF is Diet Green Tea?

A false sense of healthiness?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

A matter of public record. When President Bush was Govenor of Texas he passed sweeping gun reform; allowed concealed weapons etc. Texas had very restrictive gun laws going back to Reconstruction. From the day he signed the bill into Law, until the end of his term as Govenor, violent crime dropped 27%

There is no correlation between the drop in violent crime and gun reform in Texas. Gun related violence/crime is only a small segement of violent crime.

Violent crime rates have been dropping all across the US for the past ~15 years... even in states where gun laws have becomre more restrictive. On the other hand, Gun related violence has been on the rise for the past 10 years.

And most gun violence is actualyl committed by black males under the age of 30. Maybe we should ban young black males.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

No. Unless Diet Green Tea counts as drinking.

WTF is Diet Green Tea?

[Lalanae]

lol Thats not really green tea.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

lol Thats not really green tea.

Well, it's really yummy.