MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

[Arborealus]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... s_iraq_168

WASHINGTON - President Bush's war policies have failed in almost every regard, the bipartisan Iraq Study Group concluded Wednesday, and it warned of dwindling chances to change course before crisis turns to chaos.

Nearly four years, $400 billion and more than 2,900 U.S. deaths into a deeply unpopular war, violence is bad and getting worse, there is no guarantee of success and the consequences of failure are great, the panel of five Republicans and five Democrats said in a bleak accounting of U.S. and Iraqi shortcomings. The implications, they warned, are dire for terrorism, war in the Middle East and higher oil prices around the world.

"The report is an acknowledgment that there will be no military solution in Iraq. It will require a political solution arrived at through sustained Iraqi and region-wide diplomacy and engagement," said Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record), R-Neb.

The report noted that Iraq costs run about $8 billion a month and that the bills will keep coming. "Caring for veterans and replacing lost equipment will run into the hundreds of billions of dollars," the commission said. "Estimates run as high as $2 trillion for the final cost of the U.S. involvement in Iraq."

Well there is $2 Trillion well spent...

The entire report is available at

http://wid.ap.org/documents/iraq/2006isg_report.pdf

[noel]

One of my favorite lines from the report:

"Good policy is difficult to make when information is systematically collected in a way that minimizes discrepancy with policy goals..."

Grats me new sig quote!

[Pherr the Dorf]

Best part is where they reccommend giving up on democracy and just minimizing damages at this point... someone just give Saddam back the damn keys and lets go home.

[Markulas]

It seems the words "cut and run" and "stay the course" are both considered to be very bad phrases now. Everyone knows there's no easy way out of Iraq now, the only thing people can do now is bitch and rightfully so.

[noel]

Liberal media my ass.

I can't believe how little coverage this is getting. It's a bi-partisan acknowledgment that this administration and their foreign policy has been a total fuck up for years, and it's getting nothing on the news I saw this morning.

[Winnow]

Best part is where they reccommend giving up on democracy and just minimizing damages at this point... someone just give Saddam back the damn keys and lets go home.

Taking out Saddam wasn't the problem. Occupying Iraq and trying to make it a democracy is the problem. We need to sit back in our comfy aircraft carriers, subs and air bases and prevent Middle Eastern countries from becoming threats beyond their own borders besides the occasional skirmish with Israel. Translation: bomb the hell out of them from time to time.

The U.S. has a high tech military. That advantage doesn't work well in an occupational role against insurgents. Steamroll when necessary, get out quickly, and then launch a Tomahawk here and there to keep the remaining baddies guessing while taking out any key facilities being rebuilt. We are under constant terrorist threat which equates to an ongoing war with any country harboring terrorists. The liberals get all excited over occupying countries but forget Tomahawk and a few Stealth bombing runs quickly.

Nothing is justified but we need the oil. Simple as that. As always, the liberal whining should be focused on forcing the oil barons out of politics so alternative energy research can be accelerated.

[noel]

Well, lets reflect on why we decided to occupy Iraq:

1. To find the Weapons of Mass Destruction -- that weren't there.

2. To remove Sadaam's support for terrorism -- there wasn't.

3. To liberate the Iraqi people -- did anyone ask them if they wanted to be liberated?

4. To destroy the terrorists!!! -- They weren't there in large quantities before due to Sadaam's oppressive regime, but grats US, there are now!

I assume your post was tongue in cheek, because that strategy is suicide both militarily and politically.

[Lalanae]

I assume your post was tongue in cheek

Well when one's head is up one's ass, where else would one's tongue be? Oh you meant...

[vn_Tanc]

The report noted that Iraq costs run about $8 billion a month and that the bills will keep coming

Jesus.

Winnow, if it's about oil, how can your administration be countenancing the idea of a withdrawal, thus leaving control of that oil out of your hands? And how does inflating oil prices through ill-thought-out military action enhance your country's strategic energy situation?

Oh I see, talking bollocks again. . .

[Winnow]

It's not like we were getting oil from Iraq before this. We just needed to stop Iraq from invading other countries that we do get oil from.

I'm not trying to justify long term occupation of Iraq.

[Kelshara]

I assume your post was tongue in cheek

Well when one's head is up one's ass, where else would one's tongue be? Oh you meant...

Bwahahaha! That was funny!

[Nick]

Wow if only those fucks had listened to me 4 years ago you all could have saved yourself a couple of trillion dollars.

Hate to say i told you so.

Actually, i dont. good ol vindication

[Winnow]

Wow if only those fucks had listened to me 4 years ago you all could have saved yourself a couple of trillion dollars.

Hate to say i told you so.

Actually, i dont. good ol vindication

The present long term solution was wrong. No doubt about it. What was your solution and how do you know it would have worked?

"I told you so" is only half-assed. So is, "it couldn't have been any worse". How do you know?

I would have given everyone a flower. There would have been world peace. We'd all be riding around in cold fusion powered cars and anything good you can think of would have happen with no adverse affects on anyone else.

Vote for Nick and all of your dreams will come true.

*group hug*

[Wulfran]

Taking out Saddam wasn't the problem.

Actually it was. Not from an ability perspective, as was proven, but in a "how do we fill the power vacuum" one. You took a semi-stable, albeit unfriendly nation and turned it into something that may be a further destabilizing influence on the region.

Nothing is justified but we need the oil. Simple as that. As always, the liberal whining should be focused on forcing the oil barons out of politics so alternative energy research can be accelerated.

You need to stop listening to a lot of know-sweet-fuck-all commodity "experts" in New York. You DON'T need the oil. Thats a fallacy that has inflated the price of oil from around the $30/bbl mark to where it is today. Canada has enough to supply what you can't produce domestically. You could also mend some fences with Venezuela or develop alternative energy sources if your gov't is that worried about the Canadian supply ability. Iraqi oil is cheaper to produce in a perfect world (less processing/refining needed than the heavier Canadian crudes and tar sands) but $2 trillion buys an awful lot of processing capacity...

[Nick]

The present long term solution was wrong. No doubt about it. What was your solution and how do you know it would have worked?

Dont go in in the first place? Don't lie to the people you govern that Iraq had WMD and wanted to use them to attack America? Don't pretend you didn't support Saddam for countless years? Don' go against the rest of the world who are screaming at you that it's without a doubt the most retarded thing your nation has ever done? Let Iraqi's handle their own fucking affairs?
Dont diminish the power of the UN just because you feel that someone should pay for 9/11, even though the country you're about to attack had fuck all to do with it? Dont link that country with 9/11? Dont waste every other countries time with your fucking half assed violent occupation thats killed nearly as many people as Saddam ever did in 1/10 of the time he was in power.

"I told you so" is only half-assed. So is, "it couldn't have been any worse". How do you know?

What the fuck does this even mean? It's half assed? What the fuck do you call the situation today in Baghdad if stating that it was a fucking mistake was "half assed". Where is your head at?

I would have given everyone a flower. There would have been world peace. We'd all be riding around in cold fusion powered cars and anything good you can think of would have happen with no adverse affects on anyone else.

Vote for Nick and all of your dreams will come true.

*group hug*

Hey, maybe if your country had actually found Bin Laden instead of forcing 650,000 Iraqi's to die so that you in fuckknowswhere USA can sleep easier in bed thinking the world trade centre didnt just collapse because of some extremist SAUDI zealots you wouldn't have needed to post such an asinine fucking paragraph about how anyone who disagrees with the widespread and calamitous murder of Iraqi's is a fucking hippy beatnik.

But no, you're really funny and original and you totally cut to the core of the problem and offer legitimate alternatives to a better way forward for mankind Winnow.

Honest to god it's like you just take your point of view from yahoo.com's front page updates.

I think we both know the word you're looking for is "zing".

[Winnow]

I'd rather see "cut to the core" realistic responses than pipe dreams.

2% of the world's population holds 50% of the world's wealth. The top 1% holds 40% of the world's wealth.

Good luck changing things!

Now, back to reality, the only way you're going to change anything is figure out how to let those wealthy people keep their money while converting to an alternative energy source (not to mention solve the unsolvable mental disease to humans that is religion). It's possible we could exploit Canada for their oil or take down Hugo Chavez and set up a puppet government in Venezuela to spread out our oil intake a little more but be realistic. Democrats and Republicans alike know they can't do anything drastic politically and survive.

If you want to start the slow process of change, that's great! It's not happening overnight and the world without the United States isn't going to be any more of a peaceful place.

[miir]

Do you even bother to read the gibberish that you post anymore?

[Nick]

Way to absolutely avoid every single point made that undermined your previous argument.

I'd rather see "cut to the core" realistic responses than pipe dreams.

2% of the world's population holds 50% of the world's wealth. The top 1% holds 40% of the world's wealth.

Good luck changing things!

Yeah let's just give up hope that humanity can progress, that's fucking rock'n'roll 2006 Winnow style.

Now, back to reality, the only way you're going to change anything is figure out how to let those wealthy people keep their money while converting to an alternative energy source (not to mention solve the unsolvable mental disease to humans that is religion).

Now you're bringing up an entirely different point. Just to appease you so as not to humiliate you too badly I definately agree that alternative fuel sources are vitally important. The difference between you and I is that I believe they are vital for ecological reasons, as opposed to OPEC rimjobbing reasons.

It's possible we could exploit Canada for their oil or take down Hugo Chavez and set up a puppet government in Venezuela to spread out out oil intake a little more but be realistic.

I'm glad you realise you're talking out of your ass with the disclaimer "let's be realistic".

If you want to start the slow process of change, that's great! It's not happening overnight and the world without the United States isn't going to be any more of a peaceful place.

That has absolutely fuck all to do with the point. Your country bleats on and on about how it IS in fact trying to change things for the better, are the rest of the world meant to just look at you in absolute cynicism or do YOU want your country to mean something more than just the fucking pocketfilling of the likes of Cheney?

Regardless of whatever answer you give on that front, the true answer is clear. On the brightside, at least America woke up enough to give the house and senate back to the Democrats so there is at least a BIT of balance between those who wish to stomp all over basic human rights, other nations and equality and those who (at least) pretend to champion virtuous concepts like freedom and compassion.

Nevertheless, in your vain pursuit to completely avoid the point you have absolutely derailed the thread to gargantuan degrees. Grats.

[Winnow]

Nevertheless, in your vain pursuit to completely avoid the point you have absolutely derailed the thread to gargantuan degrees. Grats.

I didn't derail anything and that 2 Trillion didn't just evaporate, some of it went into our economy which is doing just fine.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

Today's report allays concern that the economy is slowing too much after another ISM survey last week showed manufacturing, which accounts for 12 percent of the economy, shrank for the first time in more than three years.

Lower gasoline prices are bringing some relief to companies and consumers alike. The price of a gallon of regular gasoline fell to an average of $2.22 in November from $2.24 in October and was off from a year's high of $3.03 in early August, according to the American Automobile Association.

A strong job market is also boosting spending. The unemployment rate fell to 4.4 percent in October, a five-year low, and hourly workers' earnings rose at a 3.9 percent pace in October, near a five-year high.

``Outside of the housing and motor vehicle sectors, economic activity has, on balance, been expanding at a solid pace,'' Bernanke said Nov. 28 in a speech in New York.

[Bubba Grizz]

I can honestly say that I am sleeping pretty well at night. Just not long enough.

[Sueven]

I'd rather see "cut to the core" realistic responses than pipe dreams.

2% of the world's population holds 50% of the world's wealth. The top 1% holds 40% of the world's wealth.

Good luck changing things!

This is hilarious. Nick points out that we'd be in a better situation now if we had never invaded Iraq in the first place, and you tell him that in order to defend his statement he's required to come up with a solution to the world's inequitable wealth distribution?

I know that you don't really post seriously here, but that's probably about as absurd as it gets.

[Spang]

what happened to then?

we passed it!

when?!

just now!

we're in now, now.

[Winnow]

I'd rather see "cut to the core" realistic responses than pipe dreams.

2% of the world's population holds 50% of the world's wealth. The top 1% holds 40% of the world's wealth.

Good luck changing things!

This is hilarious. Nick points out that we'd be in a better situation now if we had never invaded Iraq in the first place, and you tell him that in order to defend his statement he's required to come up with a solution to the world's inequitable wealth distribution?

I know that you don't really post seriously here, but that's probably about as absurd as it gets.

Pipe down Russian Slut!

I said, it's cool to call out the administration for the current situation but as with everything else, offering up the magic pill that would have cured everything would be nice as well (so I can shred it to bits with my own woulda coulda shoulda counter fantasies while ignoring all the factors involved) It's a great thing to be able to second guess and say "this or that" should have been done without being able to factor in the bazillion other factors involved...why do you think time travel boggles the mind so much...because you can't predict all the changes that would take place by altering the smallest thing in the past...look to the future people!

I would have made the world a perfect place if I was in charge. No need for me to explain in detail.

[vn_Tanc]

I said, it's cool to call out the administration for the current situation but as with everything else, offering up the magic pill that would have cured everything would be nice as well

Why are these things even fucking related?

3-4 years ago us bleeding heart liberals posted lengthy diatribes specifying exactly why invading Iraq was a bad idea.
3 years and 2 trillion dollars later it turns out we were exactly 100% bang on the money correct about damn near everything. So shut the ever living fuck up for once and eat your crow.

You believe it was about oil? I used to but don't any more. Chillingly enough I think Dubya and co. truly believed their own rhetoric about democracy and a domino effect. And even worse I believe the "God told me to take out this evil man" story is truer than should be possible.

So yeah, who knows what might have happened if you DIDN'T invade Iraq? However I (and others) did know what would happen if you DID.

And while we're offering up magic pills - if you want to address worries about the US's oil supply try this: USE LESS.

[Winnow]

Why are these things even fucking related?

3-4 years ago us bleeding heart liberals posted lengthy diatribes specifying exactly why invading Iraq was a bad idea.
3 years and 2 trillion dollars later it turns out we were exactly 100% bang on the money correct about damn near everything. So shut the ever living fuck up for once and eat your crow.

Invading Iraq and occupying it for a long period of time are two different things. I'm fine with Invading Iraq and booting Saddam. Where the administration failed was in understanding there was no point to long term attempts to convert the country to a democracy. In the long run this helps the U.S. because we can now steamroll countries and GTF out right away citing Iraq as an example of the uselessness of trying to convert Middle Eastern countries.

[vn_Tanc]

You've got to be trolling me.

[Neroon]

I think you guys are misreading what Winnow is saying. Hell, I may be too, but this is what I get out of it:

America's addiction to oil is dwarfed only by it's addiction to money. The rich (1-2% of the population) are what drives the actions of this country. Sure, we have a government putting on a great dog and pony show, but money is what get's things done.

We are in Iraq, because rich people who would gain tons of money (oil industry, rebuilding industires), have all the influence in our government.

The only way to stop the US from doing idiotic things like invade Iraq, is to remove their power base. And you can't. To say that

2% of the world's population holds 50% of the world's wealth. The top 1% holds 40% of the world's wealth.

is not relavant to the subject, I think is incorrect.

Is this what you are trying to say Winnow?

[Winnow]

Is this what you are trying to say Winnow?

You're on the right track Neroon.

I didn't mention anything about the U.S. when I referred to the 1-2% wealth statistic though. I said "the world". A lot of the wealth happens to be in the United States but it's the same deal in most other countries as well.

It's not all about wealth but that is almost always linked to power/influence. As for politics, it's a dirty business. You're just not going to get anywhere without getting your hands dirty with backroom deals.

So, working within the framework of the wealthy/influencial 2% and the corrupt politicians, you can start your quest to make the world a better place.

That was the basis behind my "Good luck changing things!" comment.

[Neroon]

Just to be clear, when I say people in the oil business looking to make tons of money, I mean by driving the price up. Destabilizing the ME is great for that.

[kyoukan]

You've got to be trolling me.

The tragically hilarious part is that he is not. He really is that stupid.

[Winnow]

The only tragedy here is your horrific string of one liners straight out of the Book of Feeble.

[kyoukan]

Oh yes. My horrific one liners. Of course. Because all of your posts are so fucking full of informative content.

You've never once in your entire life ever said or wrote anything worth hearing.

[Traz-KOE]

Neither have you- but hey, don't let me stop this thread from devolving into yet another Kyo vs Winnow grudge match. After all, isn't that what this forum is for?

[Nick]

[Winnow]

You've never once in your entire life ever said or wrote anything worth hearing.

You like to speak in absolutes. Skip school during that particular lesson? That, combined with your freakish "we" speak that you break out when you need to make your one liners sound like they're coming from a mass of people has me thinking you've got a screw loose somewhere.

You seem overly concerned with trying to speak for some sort of imaginary group of people in your head during your thread stalking sessions. Seek help!

The entire world hates me. "We" all get it. Everyone one of us. Take your medicine now.

[Kryshade]

Oh yes. My horrific one liners. Of course. Because all of your posts are so fucking full of informative content.

You've never once in your entire life ever said or wrote anything worth hearing.

I have to say that although sometimes Winnow will attempt to "sway" readers with his posts, he at least posts intellectual and somewhat thought out ideas (regardless of whether there is fact behind them or not). On the other hand, I don't think that in my 4 years of frequenting this site on a daily basis that I have EVER read something from Kyoukan that would even hint at an ounce of intelligence. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if I could actually read a post where Kyoukan didn't act like a complete bitch ALL the time, that I'd retract my statement and settle for feeling like Kyoukan is instead just a waste of space in our little internet world here.

[Nick]

Kyoukan talks a lot of sense when she wants to and can come off with some of the best one liners this board has ever seen. It is however true she acts like a viciously cranky asshole for no apparant reason every time she points thus nullifying any reason to listen to her.

All the same, she isn't without intellect.

[Truant]

to continue the derail...

winnow is the only poster on this forum that makes me wish we still had the ignore feature.

[Hesten]

to continue the derail...

winnow is the only poster on this forum that makes me wish we still had the ignore feature.

You only say that because Midnyte havent broken his word about staying away more than a few times so far

[kyoukan]

I have to say that although sometimes Winnow will attempt to "sway" readers with his posts, he at least posts intellectual and somewhat thought out ideas

ahahahah, what?

cool this thread is turning into a reunion of people that I've recently verbally brutalized. isn't it interesting that it always turns out like that?

[Nick]

That the only thing you achieve with your fucking moaning is to make people think you're a twat?

Yeah thats hilarious "how it always turns out like that"

What a pretentious arsehole.

[*~*stragi*~*]

I have to say that although sometimes Winnow will attempt to "sway" readers with his posts, he at least posts intellectual and somewhat thought out ideas

ahahahah, what?

cool this thread is turning into a reunion of people that I've recently verbally brutalized. isn't it interesting that it always turns out like that?

remember that one time on the legion board when ezboard wouldn't let me edit but i tried 8 times and then you posted but then you edited your post to say nothing? that was a pretty good burn