Despite the US retarded invasion of Iraq

[Nick]

Is anyone else getting a bit fucking tired of hearing about how some group of Sunni/Shiite muslims is going around blowing up/bombing/burning/shooting/torturing/raping another group of sunni/shiite muslim in fuck knows where, Iraq.

What the fuck type of mentality is even causing this? Is it just religious hatred? Should they not just sort themselves out? Stupid pricks.

They were better off under Saddam, well done US on unleashing the unending flow of Iraqi murderous stupidity.

It's just fucking absurd, old and disgusting.

There is no way to save Iraq at this point in time, they didn't want saved in the first place and they sure as fuck don't want saved now.

The thing is, I don't think anyone in the whole planet could truthfully insist they thought the US went in "to save" or "liberate" them.

Humans piss me right the fuck off sometimes.

[Arborealus]

But the Kurdish north seems relatively quiet. Seems to be all sectarian violence within islam. Ain't god great?

[Midgen]

They all know that once the US leaves, that one of the 3 major factions will come to power and assume control of the oil $$$.

Edit:
Speaking generally of sectarian violence based on religion. Yes, I'm sick of it. Beyond sick of it. Been sick of it for a long long time (going back to arab-isreali wars - yes, I'm old).

[Nick]

Exactly, how could any religious person kill another person? Isn't it breaking like the most fundamental rule of any religion?

Stupid fucking monkeys, arrgh

[Vaemas]

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey.
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs.
They make a club.
And beat their brother, down.

The sectarian violence within Islam goes all the way back to Mohammed's death. One of the most interesting history classes I had was with a professor from the Netherlands with a background in world religion. We covered everything from Hinduism to Buddhism to Islam over the course of history up to World War II. I learned a lot in that class and I while I'm no expert, it gave me a good perspective on history and religion.

No matter what religion it is, killing is usually prohibited. Granted, there are cases under which it is permissible. Often, these cases are twisted into whatever form some radical wants to use to justify his or her extremist views.

Often, I think that the mystical traditions of the Bedouin influence the various Islamic cultures more than the "proper" Islamic teachings. That's not so different than the cultural leaning of various segments of the United States. When it comes down to it, we all filter whatever religious beliefs we want according to our personal leanings. In this case, it's a culture that has a long and varied history of blood feuds and death feuds.

To quote an anonymous translation from "Tait's Magazine," July, 1850:

Terrible he rode alone,
With his Yemen sword for aid;
Ornament it carried none
But the notches on the blade.

This is a segment of society with a very visible group of violent people with a violent history. I'm not saying they're all barbaric and violent, but it's what makes the news. You only need a handful of folks to screw it all up for everyone else. Just look at any major world power. We've all got our freaks that come out of the closet now and then to screw things up for the rest of us.

But yeah, I know what you're saying Nick. It sucks. And frankly, I don't think there's a damned thing anyone can do about it. The change has to be driven from within the culture itself. That's not going to happen from the West, no matter how much pressure or "reeducation" we provide.

[Nick]

They need to watch some monty python, have a beer and a wank and chill the fuck out.

[kyoukan]

But the Kurdish north seems relatively quiet. Seems to be all sectarian violence within islam. Ain't god great?

The kurds are too busy digging their own graves for when either the sunnis or the shiites take over and start looking for kurds to slaughter.

[Hesten]

They need to watch some monty python, have a beer and a wank and chill the fuck out.

Hmmm, im scared, Nick like to wank to Monty Python.

[Boogahz]

They need to watch some monty python, have a beer and a wank and chill the fuck out.

Hmmm, im scared, Nick like to wank to Monty Python.

He's a lumberjack and he's okay!

[Trek]

They were better off under Saddam, well done US on unleashing the unending flow of Iraqi murderous stupidity.

Right because its ok if only 1 side gets slaughtered

[Nick]

Who said it was "ok"?

Clearly you must have meant to have quoted something else, since what you've written under my quote has little to no significance or relevance to the discussion.

[Trek]

Sure, then why did you insert that quote into the post?

[Nick]

First of all...what?

At what point under Saddam's rule did "only one side get slaughtered"?

Was that before or after the whole country full of people of differing religions was being oppressed by a single dictator?

Oh wait....that never happened.

You're not seriously defending the US invasion are you? Regardless, 650,000 odd people in 3 years pretty much equals anything Saddam ever did, and since i don't think anyone with half a brain would suggest Saddam was about to go kill 650000 people if the US hadn't invaded your entire point is moot.

And let's not forget why the Kurds ended up being so brutally fucked, may it have been because the US left them high and dry? Oh my me...so it was.

[Trek]

So let me get this straight, the US killed 650000 and is responsible for the Kurds being gased?

[Midgen]

Nick,

You need to lay off of whatever that shit is your smokin'.

It's totally messed up your brain.

[Nick]

I suggest both of you fuckwits go brush up on your history.

[Midgen]

I suggest both of you fuckwits go brush up on your history.

Your version?

And disagreeing with you makes me a fuckwit? How does that work?

[Trek]

Woo, im a fuckwit and you orgasm at anything anti-US. US policies have sucked and made a mess of a mess. Bad idea after bad idea mixed in with help from many countries led to your original point of them blowing themselves up is annoying. Something needed to be done in the region and still does. Is it worse now? Probably, sometimes the price of change is high, especially in a region with so many fanatics. I am glad Saddam was ousted even if the region is in more turmoil then before...at least there is some chance for something to come of it however unlikely. With western thinking we would hope the Iraqi people would take this chance to build a free country, but they are more concerned with trying to use the opprotunity to kill each other and at this point we should let them....of course that will lead to another Saddam or worse.

[kyoukan]

Nick,

You need to lay off of whatever that shit is your smokin'.

It's totally messed up your brain.

I just want to point out to everyone that this is classic, well thought out counter argument and would all do well to follow this example.

[Nick]

sometimes the price of change is high

I love it when people who don't have to put up with half their family being blown up or watch their neighbours burn to death preach about how "sometimes the price of change is high"

[Spang]

what's the best solution?

[Nick]

The best solution would have been to not go in in the first place (the idea 99% of the world suggested before the invasion).

I'd say that "cleaning your own mess up" is the best solution at this point.

[Sylvus]

What's the problem we're looking to solve? That's what you need to ask before you can try to come up with a solution, at least in my opinion.

Is it that an Iraqi (Saddam) was killing other Iraqis? Because we certainly didn't solve that problem. We added to it that Iraqis are now killing Americans, something they weren't doing under Saddam.

Were we trying to secure rich oil reserves? I'm not certain we've helped our position on that front, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Was it that we needed to kickstart democracy in the Middle East? It doesn't appear that Iraq is the best place to start something like that, with its three factions (or are we the fourth now?) that hate each other and appear unwilling to coexist without someone in there strongarming all of them.

[Spang]

i think the problem is we went in with too few people and resources. that problem still exists. i don't think packing up and going home is the best solution so we need to put more boots on the ground. there's too many problems in iraq and not enough people to solve them. if we leave, the problems will just escalate.

[vn_Tanc]

Isn't Kylere due here any sec to blame it all on the Brits?

After all it was us who basically took a ruler, drew straight lines around 3 fat oil fields and called it "Iraq" without any thought to the explosive tribal mix we were forcing into the slow cooker. . .

[miir]

Something needed to be done in the region and still does. Is it worse now? Probably, sometimes the price of change is high, especially in a region with so many fanatics.

That something that needed to be done was to leave them the fuck alone and let them sort their own shit out.

Supplying Iraq with weapons and technology to fight Iran certainly didn't help things. Invading and occupying Iraq didn't help things.

All the shit that is being done is only making the situation worse.

I am glad Saddam was ousted even if the region is in more turmoil then before...at least there is some chance for something to come of it however unlikely.

The ousting of Saddam is the sole reason for the turmoil that is happenin now. There was better chance of something coming out of that region if you guys had just left it the fuck alone.

With western thinking we would hope the Iraqi people would take this chance to build a free country, but they are more concerned with trying to use the opprotunity to kill each other and at this point we should let them....of course that will lead to another Saddam or worse

They are concerned about the same thing as the people who ordered the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Power and oil.

You government was willing to slaughter people for Iraq's oil... why is it so hard to believe that Iraqis wouldn't do the same?

[Zaelath]

i think the problem is we went in with too few people and resources. that problem still exists. i don't think packing up and going home is the best solution so we need to put more boots on the ground. there's too many problems in iraq and not enough people to solve them. if we leave, the problems will just escalate.

The Iraqi region has been at war for thousands of years, except the 30 before the last 3. So, you removed the only stabilizing influence that region has seen in millennia, and you think the problem is "not enough boots on the ground".

Masterful.

I bet that was the Russian's problem in WWII as well... hrmm, no, wait....

[Winnow]

The Iraqi region has been at war for thousands of years, except the 30 before the last 3.

So, that little Iraqi/Iran war between 1980-1988 doesn't count? Man, there was gassing, genocides and 1 million casualties in that conflict. What's it take to count as a war?

Wiki it!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War

With more than 100,000 Iranian victims[49] of Iraq's chemical weapons during the eight-year war, Iran is one of the world's top afflicted countries by weapons of mass destruction.

[miir]

He was implying stability within Iraq.

[Winnow]

He was implying stability within Iraq.

Killing Kurds, torturing a section of population and throwing a bunch of people in prison for political reasons while engaged in a war between two countries that totals over one million casualties is considered stable?

[kyoukan]

Comparatively stable, yes. Maybe one day you'll leave your house (or more likely, your mom's house) and reality will beat the shit out of you.

[Spang]

The Iraqi region has been at war for thousands of years, except the 30 before the last 3. So, you removed the only stabilizing influence that region has seen in millennia, and you think the problem is "not enough boots on the ground".

Masterful.

I bet that was the Russian's problem in WWII as well... hrmm, no, wait....

presently, yes. there were earlier problems that can't be fixed; like changing focus from afghanistan to iraq and going into iraq with not enough soldiers. some argue that going into iraq shouldn't have happened in the first place, but the US can't change that. they're there. while they are in country they may as well dominate the opposition like they did in the first gulf war.

i feel the US should have stayed in afghanistan, sent more troops there and left iraq alone, but it wasn't my decision nor did i even really have one back then.

are you suggesting the US and its allies leave?

"sorry we fucked up your country. we'll be leaving now!"

[Winnow]

Well shit! The world's in much better shape than we imagined!

Hell, if every country engaged in chemical warfare, genocide, tortured and imprisoned for political reasons, this world would rock. We should go kill off a million canadians, kill all the black people, lob some scuds into mexico, and imprison all the democrats. We'd still be considered stable so other countries should keep their distance and not interfere.

[miir]

Hell, if every country engaged in chemical warfare, genocide, tortured and imprisoned for political reasons, this world would rock.

Iraq wouldn't have has chemical weapons to use if you guys hadn't given them to him.

I suppose if some radical group tried to assassinate Bush and overthrow his administration, do you think they would just sit on their asses or would they obliterate them?

Hell, Saddam didn't even do anything remotely close to that and look what he got.


As for imprisonment and torture... apparently that's what it takes to keep those radical fundamentalist nutjobs in check. They were so fucking afraid of crossing Saddam's regime that they didn't dare try the shit that they can so openly do now...



Yeah, he was a pretty nasty dictator. Nobody is saying he was a saint but he did do a pretty good job of keeping the fundamentalists in check.

[Cartalas]

I love this thread!!!

Miir says: " Blah Blah Blah"
Kyoukan Says : Blah Blah Blah"
Vn_Tanc Says: " Blah Blah Blah I suck cock Blah"
Nick says: "Blah Blah Blah"


Same old shit different thread.

[Trias]

you had me at retarded.

[Trek]

sometimes the price of change is high

I love it when people who don't have to put up with half their family being blown up or watch their neighbours burn to death preach about how "sometimes the price of change is high"

Is it because I wasnt alive when my country fought for their freedom? Well you got me there, good one.

[Zaelath]

The Iraqi region has been at war for thousands of years, except the 30 before the last 3.

So, that little Iraqi/Iran war between 1980-1988 doesn't count? Man, there was gassing, genocides and 1 million casualties in that conflict. What's it take to count as a war?

So, wait, you're now going to use a war that you promoted, funded and tacitly approved as a reason why Saddam needed ousting as well? Despite being outside the scope of what I was talking about.



Humerous. I award you four and a half trolls and a cookie for effort.

[Trek]

Sure I agree that the US has fucked it all up, leaving them to sort themselves out wasnt going to work either and now we lost that puppet to take care of the iranian situation.

[Winnow]

We had to fuck over the Iranians for awhile after the end of the hostage crisis in 1980 but any chemicals we gave Iraq were meant to improve the quality of baby formula for Iraq's children.

[kyoukan]

You're too stupid to even know when to flee from a thread in shame. Even Kylere knows when to do that, and he's got fucking rocks in his head.

[Winnow]

Looks like you needed those baby formula chemicals more than Iraq. Where the fuck were you when the call went out for human shields to protect Saddam from the U.S.?

[Tyek]

I want us out of Iraq as much as anyone, I think we are there for oil like everyone else does, which is the wrong reason to be there. We should never have invaded and are basically doing the same thing we condemned Iraq for in the first Desert Storm. I hate seeing innocents dying for no reason.

With all that said, the one thing I find humorous with this thread is the people who are saying that when Hussain commited those attrocities he was stablizing the region. When the US does the same thing, they are an Evil country.

Whoever said that Saddam needed to do those things to get things stablized was right. The US can not do those same things because segments of the population will not allow them to do it. That is fine, and in fact gives me hope in our population that people do really care, but lets not make Saddam a martyr or a wonderful leader or even a innocent victim, he was evil, let his children take random citizen and murder them for their amusement and beat his athletes who did not perform to his satisfaction and did even more things we will never know, but mass graves in the area are pretty good indications he was doing bad bad things.

We will never see a peace in our lifetime in that region, the hatred among those religious groups has been going on for Centuries. Religions that explicitely say do not kill in their own text are twisted by the smallest, most radical groups so they can stay in power, keep getting their funding from other zealots and continue on.

It is not just a Muslim issue, I seem to remember a few groups in Ireland doing similar things not too long ago. The difference now is that the Muslim groups fighting know that they no longer need to fear Saddam and can go all out. They know the Allies are shackled to a degree to concepts like the Geneva Convention and yes I know we violated that to a great extent, but the repercussions of that have made radicals even more empowered because they know the US has to back down to a certain extent.

There is no solution, a sad fact. If we leave all hell breaks loose. If we stay, we create worse tensions around the world. In some ways our presence has probably lessened the Sectarian violence because we gave them a common enemy. I hope that things settle enough that some day innocent people can live healthy normal lives in Iraq, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Zaelath]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, not a Saddam fanboi. However, the idea that you could have "won" the war in Iraq (in the sense of getting in, removing Saddam, and getting out again) by throwing more fuel on the fire is just patently rediculous, when you look at the only regime that was capable of relative stability in Iraq in thousands of years.

A thought that came to me later was Saddam's been sentenced to death for killing 100 (?) Iraqis in retaliation for an assassination attempt. Will Dubya be next, or is he protected from a war crimes trial because he had the support of a handful of other countries?

[Winnow]

A thought that came to me later was Saddam's been sentenced to death for killing 100 (?) Iraqis in retaliation for an assassination attempt. Will Dubya be next, or is he protected from a war crimes trial because he had the support of a handful of other countries?

Bush is protected because the United States is currently the only super power and the rest of the Western World happens to like the status quo and loves that the hate is focused primarily on the United States while they reap the economic benefits of a stable west. If Saddam kicked our ass, invaded the United States and put Bush on trial, he would be a dead man as well only probably in a more gruesome way.

It's a shame most countries are insignificant or the same could be said about their leaders for one reason or another.

...like the Middle East is the model the rest of the world should strive to imitate...zero rights for women, endless violence, no freedom of speech, barely any rights for men. Sounds fucking awesome!

------------------

Edit:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Insurgents Monday targeted key oil sites in Iraq, firing mortar rounds into an oil distribution center in northern Iraq and bombing a pipeline in a southern suburb of Baghdad, Iraqi officials said.

The attack on the oil distribution center triggered a massive fire that halted the flow of crude oil to Iraq's largest refinery, a Kirkuk police official said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/ ... index.html

Ok now it's serious. Don't mess with the oil!

[vn_Tanc]

I love this thread!!!

Miir says: " Blah Blah Blah"
Kyoukan Says : Blah Blah Blah"
Vn_Tanc Says: " Blah Blah Blah I suck cock Blah"
Nick says: "Blah Blah Blah"


Same old shit different thread.

And now you've turned up and contributed absolutely nothing other than insults that would embarrass a remedial-level 5 year old, we can call it complete!

/clap

[Cartalas]

I love this thread!!!

Miir says: " Blah Blah Blah"
Kyoukan Says : Blah Blah Blah"
Vn_Tanc Says: " Blah Blah Blah I suck cock Blah"
Nick says: "Blah Blah Blah"


Same old shit different thread.

And now you've turned up and contributed absolutely nothing other than insults that would embarrass a remedial-level 5 year old, we can call it complete!

/clap

And you still Suck the cock! Point?

[vn_Tanc]

OH NOZ I FELL INTO YOUR CUNNINGLY CRAFTED LOGIC TRAP AND THERE IS NO ESCAPE FOR ME

jesus

[Cartalas]

OH NOZ I FELL INTO YOUR CUNNINGLY CRAFTED LOGIC TRAP AND THERE IS NO ESCAPE FOR ME

jesus

Still Sucking!!!!!

[vn_Tanc]

Do you think you are sparring with me?