Why is reproduction such an unassailable right?

[masteen]

Why don't we regulate breeding? Is that next generation of crackheads critical to this country's future?

[Sylvus]

How would you propose enforcing something like that?

[Homercles]

like they do in Enders Game.





duh!




Im bored today

[Lalanae]

Even though I know its impossible, I sometimes wish we could regulate breeding.

It seems like the norm these days is bad parenting. It's rare I come across decent parents. Most parents I see are either beating the shit out of their kids or letting them run wild. I don't understand people. Why have kids if you don't realy want the responsibility of parenting? Its so easy to NOT get pregnant.

Honestly, I've never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads. Stupid fucked-up people breed more than intelligent got-their-shit-together people. So much for Darwin, huh?

Maybe something that would help the problem is to not give tax breaks for each child. Maybe it would make some of these idiots think twice before they have 6 kids.

[Arborealus]

Its so easy to NOT get pregnant.

The mistake there is you are assuming that everyone thinks ahead...And life begins, according to evangelcon logic, the moment the couple decides to get in the back seat...so anything after the fact is a sin and therefore should be illegal.


Which curiously makes me wonder why christians don't take all the other deadly sins as vehemently...I have never seen an evangelical protest against gluttony at a Piccadilly Cafeteria...

[masteen]

I know a bit factor is the fact that poor and ignorant girls seem to LOVE the idea of having a baby. They don't seem to understand that the baby is only a baby for a couple years. Kids come into kindergarten NOT KNOWING HOW TO TALK. 5 years old, and they don't know a language. This is the reason so many districts are having mandatory pre-k starting at age 3.

As to enforcement, we couldn't regulate everyone, but it would be pretty easy for people on public assistance. Every month, when they go to get their government check, they get a shot of depo in the arm. No shot = no check.

I'm sure the poor would be up in arms about it, but fuck them. I'm tired of paying for their kids. Plus, according to the referrals put into our discipline system down here, the kids who live in the ghetto areas account for ~85% of all discipline problems, despite being only 20-30% of the student population.

[Akanae]

As to enforcement, we couldn't regulate everyone, but it would be pretty easy for people on public assistance. Every month, when they go to get their government check, they get a shot of depo in the arm. No shot = no check.

I'm sure the poor would be up in arms about it, but fuck them. I'm tired of paying for their kids. Plus, according to the referrals put into our discipline system down here, the kids who live in the ghetto areas account for ~85% of all discipline problems, despite being only 20-30% of the student population.

I've been saying that for years... I know a lot of people will hate me for it but people on welfare should NOT be allowed to have more children while on welfare. It becomes a burden to the tax payers and it makes it harder for them to ever get off of welfare etc etc. They can have their freedom to breed back when they don't require government assistance to do it.

Also this is kind of a Utah thing (I think), but I know of several women here who will actually PLAN when they are going to get pregnant, quit their job and start collecting welfare while their husband goes through college etc. This is unacceptable behaviour.

[Lynks]

Here I am, like a sucker, saving up my money before I get my wife pregnant.

[kyoukan]

Why don't we regulate breeding? Is that next generation of crackheads critical to this country's future?

So are you insinuating that good people only come from white upper middle class suburbanite families, who in turn never produce anything but future presidents and nobel prize winning physicists?

The odds of a great person coming from a lower class family is just as even as a bunch of WASPs in Florida producing a mediocre middle management jobber such as yourself. Why don't you justify your existance to us before being able to pass judgement on other's rights?

[Al]

Honestly, I've never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads.

I have never seen a more closed-minded statement in my life... You might have said, "I don't know a single Mexican that is worth a damn", at least it would have offended more people. I am the second of 7, and there were stillborn twins between me and my youngest sister. My mother is an elementary school teacher, and my father is the superintendant of school grounds, and that isn't to say my school is crap... They won Class C states in both Softball and Football last year, and are poised to win states in Softball for the next 2 years (our main pitcher was a sophmore and had a .043 ERA with 1 ER, both State records, which doesn't consider class). They also consistantly score in the top 25% among NYS schools.

Just because you have 3 kids and you're going bat-shit crazy doesn't mean other people can't be batshit crazy with 6 or 10 kids. Try to have a bit of empathy when you make blanket statements like that.

[vn_Tanc]

The problem with regulating human reproduction, which is an attractive proposition, is that it's about yay far ----><---- from there to eugenics. Which is a real can of worms.

And are there no white, middle class crackheads in the US? There sure as fuck are here in the UK. If I was regulating reproduction it wouldn't be solely based on race and/or economic standing. Although I would predict a predominance of (my favourite) problem factors within the low economic groups. And there's the rub - how do you draw up a list of restrictions everyone can agree on? I'd prefer to see a general "self reliance" certificate to cut down on the number of idiots who blunder through life with little to no understanding of their responsibilities or the affects of their actions on others, OR even the basics of negotiating the hazards of life in the 21st century.

It could be a hot topic in the UK as we have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy in the EU. A great many of those are due to the rules that pregnant single mothers get priority on the social housing lists, so young girls see it as an easy career route - finish school (optional), get some brats, get a free house and live on welfare. The kid is seen as little more than a fashion accessory in most cases. I have a close friend who works with the teenage mums in my town so I know of what I speak here. And a coupld of weeks ago there was a news article about how these pregnant teenagers are deliberately smoking during pregnancy so they have small babies "cos labour is painful".

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

And a coupld of weeks ago there was a news article about how these pregnant teenagers are deliberately smoking during pregnancy so they have small babies "cos labour is painful".

New Labour certainly is.

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

[vn_Tanc]

Tony Blair could come and take a shit through my letterbox every day and I'd still never vote Tory.

[Wonko Wenusberg]

Sweden had a period of forced sterilisation between 1933-1976 to prevent certain people to produce an offspring. There was three different factors that led to sterilisation.

1. Eugenic indication: The genes of the individual was seen as bad.
2. Social indication: social circumstances that led to believe that the offspring would be "bad".
3. Medical indication: A disease that could be hereditary.

Around 63 000 persons, mostly women, got this treatment till 1976.

So this is what you want? Or maybe a "third-strike-birth-law"!

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

what if it were Gordon Brown?

[Vaemas]

Honestly, I've never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads. Stupid fucked-up people breed more than intelligent got-their-shit-together people. So much for Darwin, huh?

Thanks for your vote of confidence in those of us who come from large families! I could just as easily point out that I know quite a few families with 3 or less children who have no fucking sense in their heads. This issue is more related to the quality of the upbringing than it is to the exact number of children born to the parents.

My father made tremendous sacrifices to provide for his family and is easily the person I looked up to most (he was killed by a drunk driver). He wasn't a white collar worker, but his ability to engineer and manage large-scale, high-voltage power distribution projects was unparallelled. He worked on many of the major building projects in the metro Atlanta area and beyond. His reputation was such that inspectors could do a cursory inspection without worrying about things being out of code. He was a skilled artisian who could create beautiful pieces of art from wood.

My mother is a college graduate with a degree in dental hygene. She spent 20 years in her career before leaving that field to take care of her family. She's currently employed by a hospital as a patient liason, helping patients make sense of what's going on as a compassionate advocate.

As a general rule, I believe that prolific reproduction is a bad idea. But to insinuate that every family with more than 3 kids is full of "stupid fucked-up people" sounds like something Funk would say.

I'm one of six surviving children. I'm proud of who I am and I'm proud of my family. I don't plan on having children of my own, but that's a factor of me being a selfish asshole and the fact that the world keeps getting more and more fucked up.

[vn_Tanc]

We could start by sterilizing anyone who has more children than they've had jobs.

Like my sister-in-law.

[Sylvus]

I think that all children of all parents are inherently worthless. Except for me.

[Akanae]

Honestly, I've never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads. Stupid fucked-up people breed more than intelligent got-their-shit-together people. So much for Darwin, huh?

I too come from a large family of seven, and my husband comes from a family of six. I don't believe that either of our parents ever had to use public assistance, all four of them have degrees and are well balanced (well expect maybe my husbands father he started having a mid life crisis 10 years ago and hasn't stopped).

But there are also some social problems related to large families. I live in Utah and the mormons here breed like its going out of style, which is fine expect for the impact on the school system. Utah is rated as one of the worst in the nation for K-12, is the state poor? No, not really compared to most others. The problem is that there are SO many large families here and that money for the schools is taken out of property taxes - so 2 kids or 11 I'm paying the same amount into schools. And most people with 7+ kids can't afford a 7+ bedroom house to live in.

I don't think that any form of forced birth control is a good option (except for those on welfare!), it starts getting really scary when the government controls something like that. But someting does need to be done to improve our class sizes and school funding in general. And untill then I will continue to be frustrated when I see large families, knowing the are contributing to the problem. Maybe I should just send Bill Gate a letter

[masteen]

Why don't we regulate breeding? Is that next generation of crackheads critical to this country's future?

So are you insinuating that good people only come from white upper middle class suburbanite families, who in turn never produce anything but future presidents and nobel prize winning physicists?

The odds of a great person coming from a lower class family is just as even as a bunch of WASPs in Florida producing a mediocre middle management jobber such as yourself. Why don't you justify your existance to us before being able to pass judgement on other's rights?

The numbers don't support your position. Nice job attacking me instead of my position.

The fact is that welfare kids seldom get out of the projects, and I can point to 5 generations here on the island that support that statement. This is not a color issue either, because there are just as many Cubans and whites in section 8 as there are blacks in the projects.

My mom was a waitress and my dad was a pool man at a hotel (he's also Cuban). I came from a pretty low income family, but we never took welfare or section 8. The fact that I'm middle-class is pretty much proof of upward mobility, and I think my life would have been very different if they hadn't worked hard enough to stay off gov't assistance.

So care to actually address the issue instead of making unfounded and incorrect attacks against me?

[Lalanae]

Honestly, I've never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads.

I have never seen a more closed-minded statement in my life... You might have said, "I don't know a single Mexican that is worth a damn", at least it would have offended more people. I am the second of 7, and there were stillborn twins between me and my youngest sister. My mother is an elementary school teacher, and my father is the superintendant of school grounds, and that isn't to say my school is crap... They won Class C states in both Softball and Football last year, and are poised to win states in Softball for the next 2 years (our main pitcher was a sophmore and had a .043 ERA with 1 ER, both State records, which doesn't consider class). They also consistantly score in the top 25% among NYS schools.

Just because you have 3 kids and you're going bat-shit crazy doesn't mean other people can't be batshit crazy with 6 or 10 kids. Try to have a bit of empathy when you make blanket statements like that.

Sorry, but I've honestly never met anyone with more than 3 kids who had any sense. Your Mexican analogy is stupid. Race is not a choice, having kids is. Sorry you got so offended, but people who have flocks of children aren't doing anyone any favors.

[Winnow]

We need more white people. Use some sort of sliding "shade of darkness" scale for the number of kids per home allowed.

Don't let blonds become extinct! Pump out more kids Sweden! Are blond jokes even told in Sweden?

[Sylvus]

[Gemily]

There's no point in attacking Lalanae over this.
She said SHE"S never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads. Get it? She. All the whinning in the world isnt going to change her experience in this.

Now, if you came from a big family and you were successful and happy, awsome. But that is YOUR experience, not hers. So lay off.

[Winnow]

Just a general comment here...there are a lot of things I've never seen with my own eyes but I can still grasp that something might be good out there that I haven't personally witnessed.

Sample size, location, etc has a lot to do with it.

I do think popping out kids for religious reasons is pretty moronic. Ass backwards religious freaks can't convince anyone of their beliefs so they have to punch out a bunch of kids and start the brainwashing from birth.

[Soreali]

Can we start with K-fed? His white trash wannabe rapping ass should not be allowed to plant his seed in any other females.. its bad enough he's responsible for four lives on this earth.`

[kyoukan]

The numbers don't support your position.

what numbers? you haven't put forward any fucking numbers.

you accuse me of using rhetoric instead of debate when your entire argument is "poor people are stupid and should be sterilized."

I mean, what the fuck? how dumb are you?

[Vaemas]

Now, if you came from a big family and you were successful and happy, awsome. But that is YOUR experience, not hers. So lay off.

You make stupid comments and you get called on it. There are a lot of experiences that I have that other people view differently. But I'm sure not judgemental enough to call them stupid fucks. If you operate on a closed-minded basis @ VV, you tend to get called on your shit.

[Tangurena]

Why is reproduction such an unassailable right? Why don't we regulate breeding?

Well, the relevant US Supreme Court decision is Skinner v. Oklahoma (316 U.S. 535). You might notice that there were no dissenting opinions in this decision. In there the following appeared:

We are dealing here with legislation which involves one of the basic civil rights of man. Marriage and procreation are fundamental to the very existence and survival of the race. The power to sterilize, if exercised, may have subtle, far-reaching and devastating effects. In evil or reckless hands, it can cause races or types which are inimical to the dominant group to wither and disappear. There is no redemption for the individual whom the law touches. Any experiment which the State conducts is to his irreparable injury. He is forever deprived of a basic liberty.

Two sentences later, they say that sterilization falls under "strict scrutiny."

One of the plot points of the sci-fi book Hominds (and the other 2 books in the trilogy) was that the Neanderthals concluded that violence was genetic. Therefore, anyone convicted of a violent crime would be sterilized, as well as anyone with 50% or more of their genes: parents, children, brothers and sisters. It was an interesting case for the "nature" side of "nature vs nurture" but I would be queasy and skeptical of taking the "nature" position.

Eugenics was "invented" in the US. However, the Third Reich took eugenics to such an evil end, that is has been forever tainted. No matter how logical you make your case for requiring permits for parenthood, the discussion will inevitably dredge up the evils of the Nazi regime.

[sarcasm]Oops, thread godwinned. Thread over.[/sarcasm]

[Thess]

Why don't we regulate breeding? Is that next generation of crackheads critical to this country's future?

Because eugenics doesn't always work.

[Arborealus]

Why don't we regulate breeding? Is that next generation of crackheads critical to this country's future?

Because eugenics doesn't always work.

Heh, teh Mistress of understatement...

Reducing the depth of the gene pool = never a good idea...Look at Prince Charles...

[Al]

Honestly, I've never known anyone who had more than 3 kids to have any fucking sense in their heads.

I have never seen a more closed-minded statement in my life... You might have said, "I don't know a single Mexican that is worth a damn", at least it would have offended more people. I am the second of 7, and there were stillborn twins between me and my youngest sister. My mother is an elementary school teacher, and my father is the superintendant of school grounds, and that isn't to say my school is crap... They won Class C states in both Softball and Football last year, and are poised to win states in Softball for the next 2 years (our main pitcher was a sophmore and had a .043 ERA with 1 ER, both State records, which doesn't consider class). They also consistantly score in the top 25% among NYS schools.

Just because you have 3 kids and you're going bat-shit crazy doesn't mean other people can't be batshit crazy with 6 or 10 kids. Try to have a bit of empathy when you make blanket statements like that.

Sorry, but I've honestly never met anyone with more than 3 kids who had any sense. Your Mexican analogy is stupid. Race is not a choice, having kids is. Sorry you got so offended, but people who have flocks of children aren't doing anyone any favors.

I wasn't offended, I was merely pointing out that your statement was completely useless. My Mexican analogy isn't stupid. What if I only know one Mexican and he is a car thief and a drug dealer? You're saying that I couldn't possibly make a statement concerning all of the Mexicans I know, even though I only know one. What if I didn't know any Mexicans? I could truthfully claim to not know a single Mexican that is worth a damn, even though I could also truthfully surmise that there must be Mexicans somewhere that are worth a damn. You made a statement concerning all of the large families you know, even though you don't know one that is (in your opinion) sensible. Were I to say, "Because Julio is a worthless piece of crap, all Mexicans are worthless pieces of crap." you would be correct in my statement being 'stupid'. You are basing your statement on what you know, and I was saying that your statement is closed-minded, based upon what I know.