Death Penalty

[kyoukan]

what kind of a fucking retard even entertains a notion like that? have you ever at least tried to make an intelligent post?

[Winnow]

kyoukan could stroll around doing the job of a ring girl, holding up a sign showing which number execution they're on during multi-execution nights. You'd get no pay for it though. Have to keep costs down.

Nick could be like the rainbow haired guy that used to show up at sporting events all the time but he'd hold up protest signs instead of bible quotes.

[kyoukan]

you can be that fat, bald fucking retard sutffing his face full of junk food and yelling at the people in the ring like his opinion means something. what is your point, you fucking idiot?

[Winnow]

*chucks his box of Milk Duds at kyoukan, hitting her in the head, thus saving the evil calories from entering his body and giving the convict sentenced to death one last laugh. Nick looks over and gives the thumbs up, happy that someone was able to give the soon-to-be-dead man one last jovial moment.*

[Cartalas]

you can be that fat, bald fucking retard sutffing his face full of junk food and yelling at the people in the ring like his opinion means something. what is your point, you fucking idiot?

You do know your shit is old and tiresome right?

[Nick]

The standard of humour has severely dropped (from zero) in this thread since Winnow started posting.

[Al]

You seem to have this funny mental image of inmates sitting around out in the sunshine smoking marlboros and playing catch with their friend. Most prisons are very brutal places that work you like a dog and have very complex and extremely dangerous social structures.

Inmates get access to things like TV, family/conjugal visits, outdoor priviledges and better jobs if they behave themselves. This is the simplest form of positive reinforcement there is, and it teaches people that if they are nice, then people are nice back to them. I utterly fail to see how this is a bad thing.

I don't know how it is in other countries, although I am positive it must be better, but in the US a large majority of released prisoners get to spend some more time as state or federal guests at some point after their release. This says to me that: a)Rehabilitation is costing a truckload of money for minimal gain, b)Prison isn't a deterrent in most cases and c)Regardless of what anyone says, the current system does not work as it should (be it from overzealous prosecution or inept rehabilitation).

Look at the recent Bucky situation here in western NY. This was a man who spent 20 of the last 23 years in prison. He goes back to prison for a parole violation and the DA doesn't inform him that the more major crime he was charged with while in a meeting with his PO was dropped. When he escaped from the minimum security facility (HA! Should be Non-Secure Facility) he was being held at, he had less than a week to go before he got out. There are several problems here.

1)No one told him the state dropped the charges against him. He was looking at 3-5 years instead of <7 days. I don't know the laws concerning this, but there is blood on someones hands over it, not just Ralph Phillips.

2)He was assigned kitchen detail because he made a complaint about the food he was being served. I don't know what the complaint was, but the end result was Bucky getting a cushy job so he wouldn't rat out the prison officials.

3)He escaped through a kitchen storage room roof by cutting through it with a can opener. Who the FUCK is in charge of that dump?!? It must have taken him 10 minutes to finish that, no guards checked in on him. It was broad daylight and no one saw him climb over the fence. He was GONE before they knew he was gone. This isn't some county lock-up. It was a State Correctional facility. The man had a long history of breaking out of places similar to this, and he gets put right back in one?

4)Last, but not even close to least, he was a career criminal. We don't have that term because it is an option the faculty at the local High School offer. We have that term because some people dont get "rehabilitated". Some people need to be locked up for the rest of their days, because they are a menace and a drain on the public. Bucky never did anything major until he broke out of prison this last time. He was a life-time car thief. He made his living robbing peoples houses. He never hurt anyone, physically, until the recent manhunt, but he caused much distress on the public for a large portion of State Trooper Longobardo's life. If he had been placed in a facility that may have had a chance of rehabilitating him, Joeseph Longobardo may still be alive today.


To sum it all up, the state of New York dropped the ball numerous times throughout the entire ordeal, and it cost taxpayers untold piles of money and Joeseph Longobardo his life. Trooper Donald Baker, the other officer wounded in the Longobardo incident, is still in serious condition.

[kyoukan]

If he had been placed in a facility that may have had a chance of rehabilitating him, Joeseph Longobardo may still be alive today.

Are you purposely substantiating my argument or are you trying to debate with me? It is junk logic to say that rehabilitation doesn't work when your penal system only makes token attempts at rehabilitation.

First you say that prisons should be inhuman punishment factories. Then you complain that if only this guy got rehabilitated he probably would not have escaped from prison and killed a cop. People don't get rehabilitated as productive members of society when you don't give them the skills and guidance they need.

[Al]

I am saying that in situations the system we have may work if utilized properly, but if prison were hell on earth it would dissuade a lot more crime than it does now. Bucky may not have returned to a life of crime if he had done 5 years in San Quentin rather than a total of 20 years in numerous county and state minimum security shacks. I am saying that if the guards had been properly keeping an eye on their charge, an enormous bloody mess would have been averted. And I am saying that the system we have is screwed up and it can never work the way they are currently using it.

Let me ask you this. When you were a child, were you taught wrong from right by being told how it is? Or were you punished for not obeying the rules set forth in your house? I was told how it was first, then punished if I continued to disobey. With very few exceptions, everyone in prison knew that they were doing something wrong when they committed the crime that got them there. Not only did they learn that growing up, but generally people also mature into adults and realize that that sort of behavior just isn't the right thing to do. Still, we have people raping joggers. You're saying we should allow someone who commits that sort of crime not only a second chance, but a third or fourth before we decide to put them away for life? Mind you, a second or even third chance for a minor offense would be just fine, as long as there was an extremely harsh and unique (unique as in, "not set in stone" and "circumstantial")punishment for continued lawlessness. Sure, give rehabilitation a chance, but there needs to be something we can do for the people who will not be rehabilitated. If we can't ever let someone out on the streets again, why should we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars per prisoner when we could pay that same amount per prison. The only reason we don't still have those things is this: There are people in the world who believe someone like John Wayne Gacy can be rehabilitated.

[kyoukan]

Did you just equate a child being punished for being unruly with spending time in jail?

Prisons used to be a lot worse now then they are now. There was still crime. Prison itself is not a detarrant to crime. If the death penalty is not a deterrant then why would prison be? prison should exist to reform people,

Do you honestly believe that if jail was some nightmarish dungeon, people would not commit crimes thinking "oh I'd better not do that because if I get caught I don't want to go to the bad place!" Because if you do, you are stupid.

There will always be people who cannot or will not be rehabilitated. I'm not sure the answer to that problem is simply to imprison for life or execute anyone who commits a crime.

[Neost]

Kyo, you throw reform/rehab around like these guys can all be sent through a 12 step program, given a support buddy and will walk away all sunshine and productive.

And that's just an unrealistic outlook.

What rehabilitation and/or reform methods do you think would work?

[kyoukan]

Nobody said everyone can be reformed. There are plenty of people who can though. In fact in the post directly above yours I basically said in about as plain english as I can.

As an example, 80% of all males currently incarcerated in the US were physically or sexually abused as children. Sixty percent of all women currently serving time in the US were raped as a child or young adult. Do you think this is a coincidence? It is not. A lot of these people are extremely broken human beings. They will continue to be broken after they are released from jail unless they are taught proper life skills and job skills. You put someone in jail and release them with no education, no money, no family, no skills and in the same state of mind they were in when they were arrested (only probably much angrier), then you stand around and look amazed when they re-offend.

Like I said earlier: other civilized countries have much 'easier' penal facilities than in the US. Inmates are given a lot more priviledges in exchange for participating in education, job skills and life skills courses. It is not 'hard time' as defined by the US standard of a maxsec prison, and the average length of stay is much lower for a similar crime. People leaving them are also highly less likely to re-offend. Yes, thank you in advance for the anecdote about how they let a guy out of jail and he killed a bunch of people.

I'm not a criminologist and I don't know what rehab techniques work and don't work and I fail to see the point of me researching it, because the point is that there are rehabilitative prisons that exist in western nations that are exponentially more successful than anything you have in the states. Yeah it is all very old testament to sit around thinking that criminals that break laws deserve to be punished (and taking away somebody's freedom is a lot worse of a punishment than anything else I can think of), but you also have to think about what you are going to do about them when their punishment is over, considering the fact that it has been proven over and over again that imprisonment or the threat of it is absolutely not a deterrant for most of these people.

[Al]

but you also have to think about what you are going to do about them when their punishment is over

The basis of this discussion was the death penalty. That would imply that their punishment would not or should not ever be 'over'. I am all for helping someone who got a bad break in life. I am not all for doing that at the expense of the tax payers and the community members where this particular individual commits his crime.

And I must be stupid. What is the point of having a justice system if not to be a deterrent? I would say a large percentage of the populace refrains from committing (some) crimes based exclusively on the fact that if they get caught, they will go to jail. To use your words, "Oh, I had better not evade my taxes because if I get caught I will go to a bad place!" That doesn't mean it stops everyone, but if there was no threat of punishment for ones crimes, there would be virtually nothing stopping people from committing them. I know I wouldn't pay my taxes if I knew I could get away with it, simply because I don't think they spend my money wisely. I would be broke and jobless if I behaved with money the way NY and the federal government behave with money. Hell, I know a NYS Trooper who has cleared 6 figures each of the past 6 years because of OT, and he's due to retire next year, with that 6 figure pension (not a '6' figure pension, but one based on the last 24 months pay, which happens to be 6 figures both years) and full health care and the works. I don't know any police officer that deserves 6 figures, regardless of how hard they work. (and believe me, this particular one doesn't work hard at all)

[kyoukan]

The basis of this discussion was the death penalty.

So? I wasn't the one that changed the subject, ranting about how 'easy' prisoners get it.

[Sueven]

And I must be stupid. What is the point of having a justice system if not to be a deterrent?

The majority of work on the purpose of the system claims that the primary point is rehabilitation.

[Al]

The basis of this discussion was the death penalty.

So? I wasn't the one that changed the subject, ranting about how 'easy' prisoners get it.

And I wasn't either. I was referring to those that will never or should never see the outside again. I was backing up my origional entry that I don't believe the death penalty should be used by the criminal justice system. We should treat these people like the scum they are, and make them suffer and toil to keep themselves alive until nature takes its course. I am not referring to people who were beaten as a child, so they now beat people. I am referring to people who like the taste of human flesh, particularly fresh 4 year old human flesh. I am referring to the people who feel the need to get their jollies off on a bloody and battered, frightened college student. If you steal a car, you don't need to be locked away for life, you need help. You seem to keep bringing up the entire system worth of offenders, when the point referred to only the ones who are to be put to death or rot in jail. I don't care how inhumanely they are treated. They gave up all civil liberties and rights to a possible rehabilitaion when they crossed the line by that margin. Breaking and entering crosses the line, but only a little. There could be a million reasons for someone to justify breaking into another persons house. There isn't even one remotely sane reason to justify kidnapping a 6 year old and making them your sex slave, then murdering them when you tire of them. I can't see how a person like that could be rehabilitated. If you can, please help me see the light.

[Zaelath]

I'm more than a little concerned that not many cases are that cut and dried, to the point where I'd rather not chain them to a wall and feed them on rancid rat meat. There's been too many fuckups to be comfortable with that.

[Al]

There's been too many fuckups to be comfortable with that.

I agree. I know the system we use doesn't work as well as it should. I am merely offering an opinion on an alternative to killing criminals. That is part of the reason I am against execution as a "rehabilitation method" (as opposed to the word "punishment", which would be against the "popular opinion" of the justice systems purpose). If the alternative is to find out after you execute someone that you killed the wrong guy, I will say life in any form is better than death.

[Siji]

Prisons are supposed to attempt to rehabilitate inmates. Starving them and working them like slaves on chain gangs and allowing guards to exectute them (haha, you know that most prison guards are one step away from being inmates themselves right?) doesn't rehabilitate people.

Neither does putting someone away for a few years in an air conditioned room with cable TV and 3 squares a day. If I knew I was going to have to work like a slave and deal with harsh treatment, I'd be much less likely to commit a crime that would put me there. But if I knew I was going to some country club with guaranteed food and mostly easy living.. big deal.

People need to fear prison. Not like now, where it's almost a status symbol to go. Hell, if you're a gang member of pretty much any major gang, you've even got friends waiting for you to take care of you.

[kyoukan]

Neither does putting someone away for a few years in an air conditioned room with cable TV and 3 squares a day.

what the fuck

[Leonaerd]

What the fuck indeed. Lol Siji.

[Winnow]

With all this prison talk, here's an interesting story:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/10/12/robbe ... index.html

Jobless man asks judge for jail time

POSTED: 2:55 p.m. EDT, October 12, 2006

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- A man who couldn't find steady work came up with a plan to make it through the next few years until he could collect Social Security: He robbed a bank, then handed the money to a guard and waited for police.

On Wednesday, Timothy J. Bowers told a judge a three-year prison sentence would suit him, and the judge obliged.

"At my age, the jobs available to me are minimum-wage jobs. There is age discrimination out there," Bowers, who turns 63 in a few weeks, told Judge Angela White.

The judge told him: "It's unfortunate you feel this is the only way to deal with the situation."

Bowers said he had been able to find only odd jobs after the drug wholesaler he made deliveries for closed in 2003. He walked to a bank and handed a teller a note demanding cash in an envelope. The teller gave him four $20 bills and pushed a silent alarm.

Bowers handed the money to a security guard standing in the lobby and told him it was his day to be a hero.

He pleaded guilty to robbery, and a court-ordered psychological exam found him competent.

"It's a pretty sad story when someone feels that's their only alternative," said defense attorney Jeremy W. Dodgion, who described Bowers as "a charming old man."

Prosecutors had considered arguing against putting Bowers in prison at taxpayer expense, but they worried he would do something more reckless to be put behind bars.

"It's not the financial plan I would choose, but it's a financial plan," prosecutor Dan Cable said.

[Al]

That guy needs some rehabilitation. Let's let the dork hang out in jail for three years till he can live the rest of his life on the state. Too bad prison is such a scarey and hard-core place. I bet he gets eaten by Bucky on the first day. Or maybe John Mark Karr...

[Zaelath]

That guy needs some rehabilitation. Let's let the dork hang out in jail for three years till he can live the rest of his life on the state. Too bad prison is such a scarey and hard-core place. I bet he gets eaten by Bucky on the first day. Or maybe John Mark Karr...

Yes, yes, because mild old men get exactly the same treatment in prison as 18 year old child molesters. It's all exactly the same; Rainbows and Lollypops for all!!

[kyoukan]

He will probably come out of prison covered in aryan tattoos and HIV positive.

They obviously should not have convicted him on anything other than mischief. Aren't your prisons full enough already that you need to put another person in there?

[kyoukan]

That guy needs some rehabilitation. Let's let the dork hang out in jail for three years till he can live the rest of his life on the state. Too bad prison is such a scarey and hard-core place. I bet he gets eaten by Bucky on the first day. Or maybe John Mark Karr...

Do you even partially understand the concept of having your freedom taken away?

Or are you still sold on this whole inmates sunning themselves with refreshing cocktails and down to the pool for a bit of a swim before tea?

[Al]

Obviously the loss of freedom isn't a deterrent. Sure, there is a loss, but I know people who were scared to join the military because they valued their freedom. One of them has been to jail 3 times since then. The military was intimidating but prison wasn't? I had a blast in the military. I got to see the world (or at least Las Vegas, Salt Lake City and Diego Garcia), met a lot of good people (and drank a lot of beer with most of them), and gained experience that will help me throughout my life (or at least so far). I don't see any prisoners in any county lock-up or worse getting to do even 1 of those things (unless they become 'rehabilitated'), and the article about the psuedo bank robber proves that prison isn't something to be afraid of. My friend was more afraid of basic training than 1-2 years in the State Pen.

What the hell am I doing? I'm arguing the downfalls of the US prison system with a canadian... I need another beer.....


Edit: I got to see South Dakota as well!

[Zaelath]

Punishment isn't a deterrant ever. People either think they will get away with murder, or don't care that the state will kill them, because there's plenty of murders in death penalty states.

Hell, even kids understand that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

If you want to see Capital Punishment on any basis, feel free to note that there are very few dead repeat offenders.

Besides, rehabilitation isn't really applicable to CP cases, it's applicable to cases where people act out of desperation because they lack the tools to survive within the legal system. Hence, education in penal systems, shop programs, etc, etc. Better to have an inmate come out with a skill than an enlarged rectum and jailhouse training on how not to get caught as often.

And if you want them to act human when they're released, there's a fair chance you can't treat them like animals on the inside. It's just common sense. It may not have a 100% success rate, but purely punative systems have a near 100% failure.