And the US government just got more rights to spy on people

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » September 14, 2006, 2:06 pm

Just saw this today, gotta love when your civil liberties get taken away so easily, even though its deemed unconstitutional in some states

Got the full article here:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0, ... wn_index_1

And what the new bill covers:

Redefines surveillance so that only programs that catch the substance of a communication need oversight. Any government surveillance that captures, analyzes and stores patterns of communications such as phone records, or e-mail and website addresses, is no longer considered surveillance.

Expands the section of law that allows the attorney general to authorize spying on foreign embassies, so long as there's no "substantial likelihood" that an American's communication would be captured.

Repeals the provision of federal law that allows the government unfettered wiretapping and physical searches without warrants or notification for 15 days after a declaration of war. The lack of any congressional restraint on the president's wartime powers arguably puts the president at the height, rather than the ebb, of his powers in any time of war, even an undeclared one.

Repeals the provision of federal law that limits the government's wartime powers to conduct warrantless wiretapping and physical searches to a period of 15 days after a declaration of war.

Repeals the provision of federal law that puts a time limit on the government's wartime powers to conduct warrantless wiretapping and physical searches against Americans. Under current law, the president has that power for only 15 days following a declaration of war.

Allows the attorney general, or anyone he or she designates, to authorize widespread domestic spying, such as monitoring all instant-messaging systems in the country, so long as the government promises to delete anything not terrorism-related.

Moves all court challenges to the NSA surveillance program to a secretive court in Washington, D.C., comprised of judges appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. Only government lawyers would be allowed in the courtroom.

Allows the government to get warrants for surveillance programs as a whole, instead of having to describe to a judge the particular persons to be monitored and the methods to be used.

So whats your thoughts on this interesting new bill? Feel the US will become a safer country after this, or that your rights are being taken away?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » September 14, 2006, 2:42 pm

And yet another 2 page thread of people whining and completely missing the bigger picture begins!

Aneron · Post by **Aneron** » September 14, 2006, 2:45 pm

Personally, I don't give a shit. I don't do anything wrong that they would be concerned about. If they want to waste data storage space for my repeated calls to Pappa John's and to see how many times in a week I go to 89.com....that's their problem.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 14, 2006, 2:46 pm

Big picture?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » September 14, 2006, 3:13 pm

Aneron wrote:Personally, I don't give a shit. I don't do anything wrong that they would be concerned about. If they want to waste data storage space for my repeated calls to Pappa John's and to see how many times in a week I go to 89.com....that's their problem.

Thats what it boils down to. If you aren't doing shit you shouldn't be doing this won't effect you.. yet everyone likes to make it seem like it does.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » September 14, 2006, 3:40 pm

You guys that think this isn't a big deal are the same people that will watch personal rights erode to the point of this being something other than a democracy.

You give em an inch, they take a mile.

That should be obvious from the introduction of this bill, which is a CYA thing since the judicial branch has said their current method is unconstitutional and probably ILLEGAL.

And I'm not sitting around whining about it. I've been on a letter writing spree since I read this article this morning. May not do any good but I promise that any representative from my state that votes for it will never get a vote from me and I will campaign against them to try and sway others not to vote for them either.

This is exactly the type of thing our founding fathers tried to avoid by setting up separation of power. If you believe this is a good thing, I believe you are moronic fucktards that don't deserve the right to live under the cloak of democracy.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » September 14, 2006, 4:14 pm

Neost wrote:You guys that think this isn't a big deal are the same people that will watch personal rights erode to the point of this being something other than a democracy.

You give em an inch, they take a mile.

That should be obvious from the introduction of this bill, which is a CYA thing since the judicial branch has said their current method is unconstitutional and probably ILLEGAL.

And I'm not sitting around whining about it. I've been on a letter writing spree since I read this article this morning. May not do any good but I promise that any representative from my state that votes for it will never get a vote from me and I will campaign against them to try and sway others not to vote for them either.

This is exactly the type of thing our founding fathers tried to avoid by setting up separation of power. If you believe this is a good thing, I believe you are moronic fucktards that don't deserve the right to live under the cloak of democracy.

Why, because theoretically the government could find out that you are having phone sex and your wife doesn't know about it, or that you watch porn 5 hours a day? ??

They don't give a fuck about people like you and I, and I just don't get how you don't see that. They are not going to waste their money and resources excersizing rights like this on normal people doing normal shit...
And if you really want to argue that even if you are breaking the law, they should have to catch you the conventional way then please kill yourself before you cause the world any more grief.

They are going to use this shit to catch big time criminals and terrorists and extradite them being tortured/sent to jail / killed or whatever instead of letting them get some fucking Johnny Cocran (sp?) to talk their fucking punishment down.

I know you guys always need some fucking conspiracy theory to grab onto, or some excuse to blubber on about how fucked up the Bush administration is, and I would tell you to knock the shit off and fucking wake up, but people like you have always and will always exist, so why try.

And if you look at this strictly from the point of view of using it to catch terrorists for example.. I think it's being too humane. I think we should continue to use these torture camps that the CIA has. I think we should do the most unimagineable things possible to them, use a fucking IV to keep them alive so we can do some more, and then go after their friends and families kaiser fucking soze style.
Not to mention that we should put the tortures and executions on public tv for the world to see what happens to these fuckstains.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » September 14, 2006, 4:19 pm

Why are you back?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 14, 2006, 4:20 pm

Funk is a complete fucking moron.

Just because I do not own a gun does not mean there should not be a right to own one.
Just because I do not drink does not mean I should be able to bar others.
Just because I choose not to pop E does not mean I should deny Xzion

Rights are not there to protect criminals, they exist to protect our citizens. Not that it matter much with loser fucks like Funk and his fake girlfriends this country will have to have a totalitarian state of some kind before they realzie what they gave up.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

THat is why we restrict the rights of the goverment. We are not insisting that people should be able to do whatever they want. We have merely placed needed controls on those who control our lives. The reason these are important is that without them, the rest of it (the Constitution) is just wishful thinking.

- Think Funk will try to IRLPK me for telling the truth? Sweet! If he does I will deliver the aluminium foil hat he needs to his hospital room.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 14, 2006, 4:36 pm

The government needs to be kept on a leash...the length of the leash can vary depending on circumstances but there still needs to be a leash.

Laws can go too far. Automated systems can go too far.

Just take a look at the NFL and touchdown celebration rules. It's got too a point where a player can maybe put his hand up in the air when he scores a TD. Fuck, it's their living, most of them love the game and when they score a TD, they want to enjoy it and so do the fans. I'm a huge Barry Sanders fan and he didn't celebrate in the end zone but I'm just as much of a fan of Chad Johnson's (and even TO's) creativity with TD celebrations.

Why dull down a game that's meant to entertain the fans if it doesn't affect the integrity of the sport? Lame.

As for the government, they could eventually monitor every packet of data that you send and receive and automatically disperse an officer to arrest you if you download an MP3 or a movie illegally. People talk of gateway drugs. Laws like these are potentially gateways to much strickter laws.

I personally like grabbing a nudie pick off the newsgroups once in awhile and don't want to face the gas chamber because of it.

I support most of the things the U.S. government has done to combat terrorism but it definately needs to be monitored closely and not simply accept everything without question as some would do here.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » September 14, 2006, 4:37 pm

Kylere wrote:Funk is a complete fucking moron.

Just because I do not own a gun does not mean there should not be a right to own one.
Just because I do not drink does not mean I should be able to bar others.
Just because I choose not to pop E does not mean I should deny Xzion

Rights are not there to protect criminals, they exist to protect our citizens. Not that it matter much with loser fucks like Funk and his fake girlfriends this country will have to have a totalitarian state of some kind before they realzie what they gave up.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
THat is why we restrict the rights of the goverment. We are not insisting that people should be able to do whatever they want. We have merely placed needed controls on those who control our lives. The reason these are important is that without them, the rest of it (the Constitution) is just wishful thinking.

- Think Funk will try to IRLPK me for telling the truth? Sweet! If he does I will deliver the aluminium foil hat he needs to his hospital room.

Typical response from most anyone in this forum to anyone that doesn't have your same paranoid set of beliefs.
Why do you see something like this the beginning of the end instead of what it is, giving the government the things they need to bring bad people down.
This isn't going to be a snowball effect where next thing you know you have no rights.. but think what you want.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 14, 2006, 4:43 pm

And lord knows no one in the executive branch has never misused domestic intelligence...

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » September 14, 2006, 4:46 pm

The FISA was in place to allow them to do the things they needed to do. All they needed was to tell a judge what they were doing and it was done.

There were already laws in place to hunt suspected criminals and terrorists.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » September 14, 2006, 5:29 pm

If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 14, 2006, 6:18 pm

Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.

These are the words of a coward.

They caught bad guys WITHOUT violating the law BEFORE 9/11, why is it different now?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 14, 2006, 6:23 pm

Kylere wrote:
Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.
These are the words of a coward.

They caught bad guys WITHOUT violating the law BEFORE 9/11, why is it different now?

Well, 911 happened so they didn't catch them all.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 14, 2006, 7:15 pm

And all of these bullshit laws are doing NOTHING to prevent more attacks. The only thing really stopping more shit from happenging on US soil is that we've given them so many targets withing easy reach (aka our soldiers) that planning something on the scale of 9/11 would be a waste.

What happens when we can no longer sustain the war?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 14, 2006, 7:15 pm

Winnow wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.
These are the words of a coward.

They caught bad guys WITHOUT violating the law BEFORE 9/11, why is it different now?
Well, 911 happened so they didn't catch them all.

And they still haven't after 5 years of the patriot act...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 14, 2006, 7:25 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.
These are the words of a coward.

They caught bad guys WITHOUT violating the law BEFORE 9/11, why is it different now?
Well, 911 happened so they didn't catch them all.
And they still haven't after 5 years of the patriot act...

So we should go back to what definately doesn't catch terrorists? Lets wait until we get nuked and then say, ah well, it didn't work, we'll get attacked no matter what so lets ease up on security and monitoring.

So far we've had several foiled plots and no major attacks. I'm sure it will happen eventually but why go back to what didn't work?

When you see the headlines, "Joe Smoe convicted of downloading porn due to evidence presented from being monitored under the Patriot act" then there's cause for concern.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 14, 2006, 7:41 pm

Winnow wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.
These are the words of a coward.

They caught bad guys WITHOUT violating the law BEFORE 9/11, why is it different now?
Well, 911 happened so they didn't catch them all.
And they still haven't after 5 years of the patriot act...
So we should go back to what definately doesn't catch terrorists? Lets wait until we get nuked and then say, ah well, it didn't work, we'll get attacked no matter what so lets ease up on security and monitoring.

So far we've had several foiled plots and no major attacks. I'm sure it will happen eventually but why go back to what didn't work?

When you see the headlines, "Joe Smoe convicted of downloading porn due to evidence presented from being monitored under the Patriot act" then there's cause for concern.

No, dumbass. Then it's too late.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 14, 2006, 7:44 pm

Fuck this

Okay I hate agreeing with Masteen sigh.

But he is right.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 14, 2006, 7:45 pm

masteen wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Kylere wrote:
These are the words of a coward.

They caught bad guys WITHOUT violating the law BEFORE 9/11, why is it different now?
Well, 911 happened so they didn't catch them all.
And they still haven't after 5 years of the patriot act...
So we should go back to what definately doesn't catch terrorists? Lets wait until we get nuked and then say, ah well, it didn't work, we'll get attacked no matter what so lets ease up on security and monitoring.

So far we've had several foiled plots and no major attacks. I'm sure it will happen eventually but why go back to what didn't work?

When you see the headlines, "Joe Smoe convicted of downloading porn due to evidence presented from being monitored under the Patriot act" then there's cause for concern.
No, dumbass. Then it's too late.

Too late like 911? Get a grip moron. Retards thinking nothing changes after 911 are living in a fantasy world.

But moooommmm, I don't want to wait in a long security line at the airport! Tough shit kid! We wanted the oil, now we need to pay the price.

but moooom, i want to organize a terror attack on my cell phone! I don't want anyone listening to me!!!! Tough shit!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 14, 2006, 7:50 pm

9/11 destroyed a few buildings, killed 10000 people, and shut down the stock markets for under a week.

Shredding the Bill of Rights will destroy the very foundations of this country. Forever.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 14, 2006, 7:55 pm

masteen wrote:9/11 destroyed a few buildings, killed 10000 people, and shut down the stock markets for under a week.

Shredding the Bill of Rights will destroy the very foundations of this country. Forever.

so now they're completely shredding the Bill of Rights? Hadn't heard they were dumping the whole thing! Didn't know this was permanent.

Allows the attorney general, or anyone he or she designates, to authorize widespread domestic spying, such as monitoring all instant-messaging systems in the country, so long as the government promises to delete anything not terrorism-related.

seems pretty clear and focused to me.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 14, 2006, 8:39 pm

Yo Funkmaster, shut the fuck up you stupid asshole.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 14, 2006, 8:41 pm

With technology, these things will arise. A continual fight to maintain freedom is good and necessary to combat the necessary increase in a policing presence of this new every increasing technological society. As new forms of communication form, new ways to corrupt are minutes behind. New ways of delivering hate and violence are minutes behind each, new technological advancement.

It's an ebb and flow that we will all have to endure. A give and take that will eventually work itself out as it always does. If the government does happen to cease too much power and control, we as a populace will up rise and overthrow and send things way to the other extreme and then rebuild yet again on the slow and steady climb toward the eventual top of the mountain, which will require yet another overthrowing.

It is as everything else...one big cyclical, monotonous and predictable bore fest.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 14, 2006, 8:48 pm

What a fucking boring life you must lead if you think things like that are dull.

Watching the erosion of your civil rights would make your forefathers ashamed beyond belief. The reason so many Irish people went and created your declaration of Independance was because they were pissed off with things like this, go and learn the history of your country you moron.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 14, 2006, 8:52 pm

Nick wrote:What a fucking boring life you must lead if you think things like that are dull.

Watching the erosion of your civil rights would make your forefathers ashamed beyond belief. The reason so many Irish people went and created your declaration of Independance was because they were pissed off with things like this, go and learn the history of your country you moron.

And here, kids, is the reason why I always say "big picture". This little child minded tool, didn't understand a word of what I typed. Can't see beyond a few of the words to the.....big picture.

Sure, Nick, if you only think in small fragments of history, then this is awful and monumentous. If, however, you take you own advice and study history you will see, this tune has been played a million times over and will continue to happen.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 14, 2006, 9:12 pm

Way to continue making a fucking disgrace of yourself on an internet forum dude, crying over the big picture must be the most tired thing flying through the net right now besides leeroy Jenkins - the only thing more monotonous than history itself is the content of your posts, stupid ugly fuckwit that you are.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 14, 2006, 9:36 pm

Nick wrote:Way to continue making a fucking disgrace of yourself on an internet forum dude, crying over the big picture must be the most tired thing flying through the net right now besides leeroy Jenkins - the only thing more monotonous than history itself is the content of your posts, stupid ugly fuckwit that you are.

You make it so easy.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 14, 2006, 10:03 pm

Stop babbling you fucking retard, what the fuck are you even trying to say?

Is it, OMG LOL GUYZ JUST GET OVER IT IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIMEZ!

Congratulations on not contributing a single thing to this planet except to sprog off a few reprobate children to clutter up the future with? Jesus fucking christ you are dumb.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 14, 2006, 10:49 pm

People are fucking children all the time, have done so all through history, get over it! BIG PICTURE!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 14, 2006, 11:58 pm

Nick wrote:What a fucking boring life you must lead if you think things like that are dull.

Watching the erosion of your civil rights would make your forefathers ashamed beyond belief. The reason so many Irish people went and created your declaration of Independance was because they were pissed off with things like this, go and learn the history of your country you moron.

We can always blow up school buses like your forefathers.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 15, 2006, 1:11 am

Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.

I wonder if this is how all empires fall.

Al · Post by Al » September 15, 2006, 1:45 am

We all have something to hide. When you give law enforcement of any type to much liberty in seeking criminal activity, they make mistakes. Take Richard Jewel for example. Here is a guy who was doing his job to the best of his ability. He sees a suspicious package while serving as a security guard at the 1996 Olympics. He calls it in, helps evacuate the area, and while evacuating the area, the bomb goes off. He is called a hero by all those present, but then someone leaks to the press that he is a possible suspect in the case. He has his life ruined. His home virtually destroyed (as is the style of many 'search warrants'). His name dragged through the gutter. His face on every media source from here to Tokyo, then he is exonerated. His personal items are returned to him, many of which are ruined, including family photos cut apart to make nifty posters.

This man was acting in an upstanding manner. He did nothing to deserve any of it, but certain people were given a bit too much slack in their leash, and this is what he got out of it. Now ask yourself, "Do I have anything to hide?" and tell me that it really matters.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » September 15, 2006, 1:45 am

Because we know how wonderful it was to live in the USSR when communism was all the rage. I mean.. gee.. why care about democracy versus communism if you had nothing to hide? Just let the government decide everything for you, monitor everything for you, protect yourself from everything for you, choose your religion for you, choose your education for you, etc, etc.

You people are complete fucktards and it scares me to think that this country is filled with people that think like you. The founders of this country and all those that have fought to defend it would be ashamed.

"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier." - GWBush 7/98

"I told all four that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator" - GWBush 12/00

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it " - GWBush 7/01

Al · Post by Al » September 15, 2006, 1:50 am

And a quote:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Benjamin Franklin

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 15, 2006, 2:43 am

To find out a girl's faults, praise her to her girl friends.

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

There are three faithful friends, an old wife, an old dog, and ready money.

Experience is a dear teacher, and only fools will learn from no other.

Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it.

Life's tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late.

Guests, like fish, begin to smell after three days.

-Benjamin Franklin

Asheran Mojomaster · September 15, 2006, 3:47 am

I can't believe some people could support something like this. And yes, I DO have things to hide. Things I wouldn't like our government listening in on, things that ARE NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS. I'm just glad we are coming into the final 2 years of Bush...and hopefully enough of the other Republicans will be taken out of office as well to make a difference. Not that I am a Democrat, I'm Libertarian, but the Republicans in this country are drunk with power.

Asheran Mojomaster · September 15, 2006, 3:48 am

And just for the hell of it, since I'm finally there...1000 posts!

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » September 15, 2006, 4:22 am

This is too funny. I love the phrase "big picture".

The big picture in a conservative's mind is allowing this and future administrations to fight terrorism effectively and by any means necessary, even if those means require him to give up his privacy and his freedom. This is the big picture... lol.

You think terrorism is the worst thing this country has ever faced and you call it the big picture... lol. Get a grip. We never had to forfeit our freedom to fight our enemies, and we've had many worse and much more powerful enemies than those that we face today. Yet your puny little brain considers this the big picture, I got some news for you dotard, there's a bigger picture. I'm going to start calling it the Ginormous Picture. It's called the Constitution of the United States of America. I know it's just another piece of paper to cretins like you, but it is still the highest law of the land, above the Supreme Court, above Congress, and certainly above this imbecilic president.

The Ginormous Picture, as it were, is that freedom and liberty are the most valuable things that we possess. They are the very foundation of this country, and many men died to make it thus.

If fighting terrorism effectively means that I have to forfeit the thing I hold most dear than I choose NOT to fight terrorism. Unlike you, I have the fucking balls to accept that freedom comes with certain risks. And unlike you, I understand that it is possible to defeat our enemies without forfeiting my liberties.

You would do your ideology more justice by going down to Arlington Cemetery and spitting on each and every grave since you are too stupid to understand that we CAN defeat our enemies without giving up our most sacred virtue, our liberty. We've done it many fucking times throughout our history, a word that people with the least knowledge of seem to throw around most gratuitously.

And as for you Midnyte, once again your ideology demands apathy. "It's a cycle and we have no control over it so we should just let shit be." lol. If our founders shared that vision, you wouldn't have the fucking right to spew it here.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-William Shakespeare

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 15, 2006, 5:44 am

Big Picture, man. We are insignificant insects on a tiny blue orb in a backwater spiral arm of a minor galaxy that is one amongst billions. So why fucking bother with anything? We've been here a fleeting moment and will be gone even quicker if you view it from the cosmological big picture viewpoint.
Mise well just have a beer and watch American Gladiators.

It's hilarious and a little sickening watching this circle jerk of retards congratulatiing their government for this. You've been played by this administration since 2001 and you're lapping it up. Enjoy the assfucking when assfucking time comes around. And it will.

Al · Post by Al » September 15, 2006, 6:03 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:With technology, these things will arise. A continual fight to maintain freedom is good and necessary to combat the necessary increase in a policing presence of this new every increasing technological society. As new forms of communication form, new ways to corrupt are minutes behind. New ways of delivering hate and violence are minutes behind each, new technological advancement.

It's an ebb and flow that we will all have to endure. A give and take that will eventually work itself out as it always does. If the government does happen to cease too much power and control, we as a populace will up rise and overthrow and send things way to the other extreme and then rebuild yet again on the slow and steady climb toward the eventual top of the mountain, which will require yet another overthrowing.

It is as everything else...one big cyclical, monotonous and predictable bore fest.

First off, you should really proof-read your posts. I'm no grammar nazi, but you're not helping yourself by not showing a competence in the english language.

If I am understanding your post clearly, it seems you want to stand back and wait until something *Earth shattering* comes around to urge the populace into revolution in order to restore our former freedoms. Until this happens, you will continue to be "bored" with current events.
I think you are failing to see a government sieze too much power. I don't support our current president. I didn't vote for him, but I didn't vote against him either. I saw an election where it was a lose/lose from my point of view, and I abstained from voting. Had I known the erosion of civil liberties would go as far as it has, and that he would try to enact laws to justify his transgressions after the fact, I would have voted for myself in a write-in ballot. At least then I could say I voted for someone who could perform to my standards. I digress.....

It has long been a standard of clandestine operations conducted within the US that no spying would be done upon US citizens without reasonable cause. The current administration is taking that standard and turning it into something that it couldn't possibly be. It is defining "reasonable cause" as "any phone conversation with a 2nd party outside the United States", to put it bluntly. Now the government seeks to further that and say that ANY communication with someone who MAY be harmful to the US is subject to spying.
What they are saying is that they can listen to any communication you put out across the air and THEN determine whether it is malicious or benign. They have no right to listen to or record my conversations, benign or malicious. If I wanted to tell my friend that I thought it would be cool if someone in Baghdad blew themselves up, I shouldn't have to feel threatened by my own government for saying so. It is my opinion, and our Bill of Rights is supposed to protect that. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave, not the land of the repressed and the home of the cowardly. I can say what I want, when I want. As long as I am not putting a fellow citizen in a situation where his/her own liberties are at risk, it doesn't matter what I say. The government has no right to determine whether the comment, "Death to all infidels!!" is directed towards the American public or a group of people in an internet video game.

They are overstepping their bounds, and that is all there is to it.

Al · Post by Al » September 15, 2006, 6:10 am

Not to derail this, but Asheran, were you ever in the Air Force? Just wondering. I was a member of the 77th Bomb Squadron, the War Eagles, based out of Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » September 15, 2006, 9:47 am

You know, sometimes I feel like arguing and trying to defend my views on this board, but then Xyun posts and I'm like, "Yeah, that's it."

Excellent post Xyun.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 15, 2006, 12:53 pm

Xyun wrote:
"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."
-William Shakespeare

Nice quote Xyun.

Caesar kicked ass. God damned Ides of March...the Senators ruined everything!

Imagine if Bush had the charisma of someone like Gaius Julius Caesar. We'd all be fucked! It's pretty safe to say that charisma is almost non existant with the current batch of American politicians.

Side note: our next presidential election is looking ugly. Unfortunately, McCain looks like he's ready to keel over. I don't think he has the stamina left for a presidential run and term so that leaves us with the fanboi candidate Rudi Giuliani running against...Hillary? Man...talk about fucked. We'll either have someone elected because he was in the right place at the right time or a murderous, inhuman, coldhearted, calculating she-man.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » September 15, 2006, 1:55 pm

Winnow wrote:Side note: our next presidential election is looking ugly. Unfortunately, McCain looks like he's ready to keel over. I don't think he has the stamina left for a presidential run and term so that leaves us with the fanboi candidate Rudi Giuliani running against...Hillary? Man...talk about fucked. We'll either have someone elected because he was in the right place at the right time or a murderous, inhuman, coldhearted, calculating she-man.

So which is which??? Doesn't really matter, the sooner the country devolves into anarchy from laws like above the sooner it can rebuild itself properly. Things are only going to get worse before they get any better.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » September 15, 2006, 2:27 pm

murderous, inhuman, coldhearted, calculating she-man

That is the absolute best description of Hillary Clinton I have ever heard or read.

Well, except for the murderous part maybe....nah, it fits.

What this country needs is a solid, non-kook libertarian candidate....if there is such a thing.

Asheran Mojomaster · September 15, 2006, 2:43 pm

Al wrote:Not to derail this, but Asheran, were you ever in the Air Force? Just wondering. I was a member of the 77th Bomb Squadron, the War Eagles, based out of Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota.

Nah, I go to Auburn University. War Eagle is a tradition here, its a greeting and battle cry. Went into it more in depth in my post in the sports forum.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 15, 2006, 2:45 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Morgrym wrote:If you have something to hide, then I guess this bothers you. I honestly don't care what they dig into if it prevents acts of terror etc.
I wonder if this is how all empires fall.

Pretty Much! But the next step is to have people whining about their kids dying in "foreign adventures" then we will start hiring mercenaries and creating client states. The Romans did it in Northern Europe, which is why no one speaks latin now.