http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5337300.stm
It's going to be interesting to see what develops out of this.
Something good out of the mess?
Something good out of the mess?
"Or else... what?"
"Or else, We will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..."
Numb Nuts: How is 2300 > 23000?
kyoukan: It's not?
"Or else, We will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..."
Numb Nuts: How is 2300 > 23000?
kyoukan: It's not?
I suppose the ? means nothing to you...kyoukan wrote:lol
you think this is a good thing?
you want Iraq to ally with a fundamentalist islamic nuclear power who's mandate is to convert all of the middle east into a fascist theocracy?
In other words it wasn't a statement, it was a question.
lol?
"Or else... what?"
"Or else, We will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..."
Numb Nuts: How is 2300 > 23000?
kyoukan: It's not?
"Or else, We will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..."
Numb Nuts: How is 2300 > 23000?
kyoukan: It's not?
Since you formed the title without anything resembling proper sentence structure, it is therefor open to interpretation. The way that I, as well as Kyoukan, and probably everyone else interpreted it was, "Can something good come out of this mess?", to which you followed up with a link about an Iraq/Iran relation article.Aruman wrote:I suppose the ? means nothing to you...kyoukan wrote:lol
you think this is a good thing?
you want Iraq to ally with a fundamentalist islamic nuclear power who's mandate is to convert all of the middle east into a fascist theocracy?
In other words it wasn't a statement, it was a question.
lol?
In short, don't argue over punctuation if you haven't mastered grammar or sentence structure yet.
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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He is gonna share the big picture with us now about how Iran will see how ludicrously free and democratic Iraq is now and immediately reform their political system, ideologies and beliefs, and become a secular republic where the people do nothing but frolic all day in the sunshine and rainbows, hand in hand with Israelis and Americans.
Here is why it is a good thing... and a bad thing.
What most of you probably don't realize is that a partnership between Iran and Iraq produces something that has never happened before... and something that couldn't have happend before 1979.
A partnership between those 2 nations, one a fledgling democracy and another who's people truly want democracy (Iran) means that there are now 2 non Arab Shia Nations brokering power in the middle east.
While Shia's only represent about 20% of all the Muslims in the World they represent about 80% of those in the middle east. Yet for the past 1400 years the Sunni Arabs have been the ruling powers in the area.
Why is this important? Because in past history the Shia have been the those less quick to fight, less quick to be radical. The first change in this was the Iran revolution in 1979 and IMHO and those of others who have studied the Shah's dictatorship... was probably necessary and better in some way, terrible in others (as Xyun could probably attest) than what was there before.
Lets also remember that after 9/11 the then President of Iran, a Moderate, offered help to the United States in the War on Terror, only to be shunned by President Bush and told he was part of the Axis of Evil...
It's interesting to note that while we were supporting, training and providing weaponary for the Sunni fighters in Afghanastan, giving weapons to Saddam (while he murdered his own people and the Shia Kurds that revolted after the war - that we allowed him to use his Helicopters to gas them, yes we were suppose to be enforcing a no fly zone over the area) it was the Shia's in Pakastan who told us that we should be careful of what we do because in truth the radical branch of the Sunni's were capible of much worse that anything the Shia had done (speaking from their mellinal old conflict)... unfortunately that person was right as those very men we trained were responsible for the greatest attack on American soil...
So a moderate Shia Government, the first one ever offers us the ability to open talks, possibly to brige a gap that was created in 1979... even though we had wronged them, even though we had supported dictators that murdered and slaughtered their people... and why? because they supported Hezbolla against Israel? or because the Sunni Arabs controled the Oil? or simply because of the hostiges back in 79'? Who knows for sure... but the fact remains that we did.
So now... so now the Sunni Arabs are going to have to deal with Shia Non-Arab Muslim's with real power for the first time since Yazid I's (leader of the Islamic World) soldiers murdered Husayn (Grandson of the Prophet Muhammad) near Karbala in 680 ce. because of differences in wheither the Islamic leader should be Political (Sunni) or Religious (Shia).
And where is the United States? Possibly in the most regretable place of all but hopefully one that is still salvagable. Do we stand by our Iraq's and try to work with Iran, recognizing the current power shift at hand and looking for their help against the main terrorist we are looking for (Bin Laden) or do we bury our heads in the sand and continue to shun Iran and thus alienate the fledgling Iraq's leaders because of our alliegences with the non-radical Sunni's like the Saudi government.
The bottom line is that there will never be peace between the Muslim nations until they can allow one another to worship freely (hell look at Norther Ireland). We can either try to help that situation by working with both sides OR we can continue our alliances with only the Sunni's and Israel (whom the Sunni's don't like any better than the Shia's do, it's just they are more vocal as of late).
IMHO we MUST work with Iraq and Iran and everyone else. We MUST figure out some way to put our past difference behind us. The Nuclear situation in Iran is, again IMHO, an opportunity for us to Lead through Leadership rather than force. The Sunni elements in Pakastan (and probably some Shia as well) have said that now Talaban fighters who renounce violence will not be charged. What WE MUST do is to make sure that have allies on both sides of the Islamic religious disagreements least we risk them putting those disagrement behind them and uniting against us. We can either set the example of be the example, now is the time for action, now is the time for leadership. I believe history will mark the coming years as great or painful...
My sorrow is that I doubt our current leadership in this country has the intelligence nor the leadership ability to do the right thing. If we do not, may God have mercy on our Souls.
Marb
What most of you probably don't realize is that a partnership between Iran and Iraq produces something that has never happened before... and something that couldn't have happend before 1979.
A partnership between those 2 nations, one a fledgling democracy and another who's people truly want democracy (Iran) means that there are now 2 non Arab Shia Nations brokering power in the middle east.
While Shia's only represent about 20% of all the Muslims in the World they represent about 80% of those in the middle east. Yet for the past 1400 years the Sunni Arabs have been the ruling powers in the area.
Why is this important? Because in past history the Shia have been the those less quick to fight, less quick to be radical. The first change in this was the Iran revolution in 1979 and IMHO and those of others who have studied the Shah's dictatorship... was probably necessary and better in some way, terrible in others (as Xyun could probably attest) than what was there before.
Lets also remember that after 9/11 the then President of Iran, a Moderate, offered help to the United States in the War on Terror, only to be shunned by President Bush and told he was part of the Axis of Evil...
It's interesting to note that while we were supporting, training and providing weaponary for the Sunni fighters in Afghanastan, giving weapons to Saddam (while he murdered his own people and the Shia Kurds that revolted after the war - that we allowed him to use his Helicopters to gas them, yes we were suppose to be enforcing a no fly zone over the area) it was the Shia's in Pakastan who told us that we should be careful of what we do because in truth the radical branch of the Sunni's were capible of much worse that anything the Shia had done (speaking from their mellinal old conflict)... unfortunately that person was right as those very men we trained were responsible for the greatest attack on American soil...
So a moderate Shia Government, the first one ever offers us the ability to open talks, possibly to brige a gap that was created in 1979... even though we had wronged them, even though we had supported dictators that murdered and slaughtered their people... and why? because they supported Hezbolla against Israel? or because the Sunni Arabs controled the Oil? or simply because of the hostiges back in 79'? Who knows for sure... but the fact remains that we did.
So now... so now the Sunni Arabs are going to have to deal with Shia Non-Arab Muslim's with real power for the first time since Yazid I's (leader of the Islamic World) soldiers murdered Husayn (Grandson of the Prophet Muhammad) near Karbala in 680 ce. because of differences in wheither the Islamic leader should be Political (Sunni) or Religious (Shia).
And where is the United States? Possibly in the most regretable place of all but hopefully one that is still salvagable. Do we stand by our Iraq's and try to work with Iran, recognizing the current power shift at hand and looking for their help against the main terrorist we are looking for (Bin Laden) or do we bury our heads in the sand and continue to shun Iran and thus alienate the fledgling Iraq's leaders because of our alliegences with the non-radical Sunni's like the Saudi government.
The bottom line is that there will never be peace between the Muslim nations until they can allow one another to worship freely (hell look at Norther Ireland). We can either try to help that situation by working with both sides OR we can continue our alliances with only the Sunni's and Israel (whom the Sunni's don't like any better than the Shia's do, it's just they are more vocal as of late).
IMHO we MUST work with Iraq and Iran and everyone else. We MUST figure out some way to put our past difference behind us. The Nuclear situation in Iran is, again IMHO, an opportunity for us to Lead through Leadership rather than force. The Sunni elements in Pakastan (and probably some Shia as well) have said that now Talaban fighters who renounce violence will not be charged. What WE MUST do is to make sure that have allies on both sides of the Islamic religious disagreements least we risk them putting those disagrement behind them and uniting against us. We can either set the example of be the example, now is the time for action, now is the time for leadership. I believe history will mark the coming years as great or painful...
My sorrow is that I doubt our current leadership in this country has the intelligence nor the leadership ability to do the right thing. If we do not, may God have mercy on our Souls.
Marb
A little dramatic wasn't that? People have screwed up throughout history. It doesn't matter. God will cut them some slack if you put a little donation into the baby jesus piggy bank.Marbus wrote: My sorrow is that I doubt our current leadership in this country has the intelligence nor the leadership ability to do the right thing. If we do not, may God have mercy on our Souls.
Marb
PS, if you hear someone keep repeating, "god is great", shoot them. They're probably about to detonate a bomb.
And here is another point...Ahmadinejad dosen't want his "fascist" theoracy all over the place. IMHO that is a show of strength to keep power and to stand up the US as the other nations who are now our "friends" did a few years ago...
Our difficulties with Iran are because of each of us and because of our position with Israel. I'm not saying we should abandon them but there is something else most people don't realize about Ahmadinejad and his desires. Like many Shia, because they have been the "working" class of Islam for much of their history they have a very strong sense of right and wrong, a very cut and dry belief in how people should be treated.
Take those beliefs, which many of us promote to hold as well, and realize that most of the people relocated when Israel was created were... da da DA! the lower class Shias in the area because they had no political power.
So take that belief in justic and then see your people resetteled to unfertil grounds by the "West" and by and an ago old enemy and you can see where some of his hatred of Israel comes from... I think this also fuels some of his dislike of some of his Sunni brothers because in some ways the let part of it happen as many of them were not moved... but they already have something in comon, regardless of their diagreements, they are both Muslim and share a common faith which many in the West do not.
Don't get me wrong in saying all of this, I'm not saying that Ahmadinejad's statements are justified or that I agree with them. I'm just trying to better understand them so that we can help rather than hurt. Hell it's our ignorance on Middle East cluture, faluty intelligence and greed that got us into this mess to begin with, those aren't going to help the situation.
Marb
Our difficulties with Iran are because of each of us and because of our position with Israel. I'm not saying we should abandon them but there is something else most people don't realize about Ahmadinejad and his desires. Like many Shia, because they have been the "working" class of Islam for much of their history they have a very strong sense of right and wrong, a very cut and dry belief in how people should be treated.
Take those beliefs, which many of us promote to hold as well, and realize that most of the people relocated when Israel was created were... da da DA! the lower class Shias in the area because they had no political power.
So take that belief in justic and then see your people resetteled to unfertil grounds by the "West" and by and an ago old enemy and you can see where some of his hatred of Israel comes from... I think this also fuels some of his dislike of some of his Sunni brothers because in some ways the let part of it happen as many of them were not moved... but they already have something in comon, regardless of their diagreements, they are both Muslim and share a common faith which many in the West do not.
Don't get me wrong in saying all of this, I'm not saying that Ahmadinejad's statements are justified or that I agree with them. I'm just trying to better understand them so that we can help rather than hurt. Hell it's our ignorance on Middle East cluture, faluty intelligence and greed that got us into this mess to begin with, those aren't going to help the situation.
Marb
Where as you know nothing and like it that ways are just depressing.Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I like how everyone assumes they know this is in fact a bad thing. You know it alls are too much. LOL
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
Marb,
I think comparing the peaceful Shia muslims of 1000 years ago with the post-Rahman Islamists of today (100% of Islamists are Shia) is a mistake.
If Iraq and Iran align with each other all it will take is for the shakey grip of the Saud family to finally slip and give way to popular opinion and we are in a shit-storm. Iran/Iraq and the Islamic Republic of Arabia combined and controlling the vast majority of the world's oil. . .I genuinely shudder to think.
I think comparing the peaceful Shia muslims of 1000 years ago with the post-Rahman Islamists of today (100% of Islamists are Shia) is a mistake.
If Iraq and Iran align with each other all it will take is for the shakey grip of the Saud family to finally slip and give way to popular opinion and we are in a shit-storm. Iran/Iraq and the Islamic Republic of Arabia combined and controlling the vast majority of the world's oil. . .I genuinely shudder to think.
A man with a fork
In a world of soup
In a world of soup
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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Yet it was you who just typed that after Marb had listed some of the reasons why it could be a good thing. Uh huh.Zaelath wrote:Where as you know nothing and like it that ways are just depressing.Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I like how everyone assumes they know this is in fact a bad thing. You know it alls are too much. LOL
I know nothing? No. I just don't presume to know everything. I have no problem confessing my ignorance on an issue while you fuckers think you have all the answers. Quite amusing.
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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He is and often does. He is right. It is important to differentiate between those who mearley expressing and opinion and those who are being vile, reactionary, no long term thinking jackass know it alls. You, my little mick friend, qualify for the later.Nick wrote:OMG NEOST LOOK AT TEH BIG PICTUREOK?
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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Keverian FireCry
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Be careful Mid...
Nick might write you a letter to tell you how angry he is...
So...what, you'd prefer that he buy a gun and kill Midnyte's family in the name of the lord? Or perhaps he could start a 'anti-douche nozzle' grass-roots organization in protest?
Virtually every person on this message board is an armchair politician. Get the fuck over yourself.