Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

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Metanis
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Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Metanis »

They are winning.

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing just jump to the last paragraph, that is the comment that caught my eye. (I only make complete links and quotes because I don't want the board Nazis to think I'm trying to cherry-pick my sources.)
Pan-Islamism challenges idea of nation state

August 13, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Here's how an early report by Reuters covered the massive terrorism bust in the United Kingdom. They started out conventionally enough just chugging along with airport closures, arrest details and quotes from bystanders, but then got to the big picture:

" 'I'm an ex-flight attendant, I'm used to delays, but this is a different kind of delay,' said Gita Saintangelo, 54, an American returning to Miami. 'We heard about it on the TV this morning. We left a little early and said a prayer,' she said at Heathrow.

"Britain has been criticised by Islamist militants for its military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. Prime Minister Tony Blair has also come under fire at home and abroad for following the U.S. lead and refusing to call for an immediate cease-fire in the conflict between Israel and Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas."

Is there a software program at Western news agencies that automatically inserts random segues in terrorism stories? The plot to commit mass murder by seizing up to 10 U.K.-U.S. airliners was well advanced long before the first Israeli strike against Hezbollah. Yet it's apparently axiomatic at Reuters, the BBC and many other British media outlets that Tony Blair is the root cause of jihad. He doesn't even have to invade anywhere anymore. He just has to "refuse to call for an immediate cease-fire" when some other fellows invade some other fellows over on the other side of the world.

Grant for the sake of argument that these reports are true -- that when the bloodthirsty Zionist warmongers attack all those marvelous Hezbollah social outreach programs it drives British subjects born and bred to plot mass murder against their fellow Britons. What does that mean?

Here's a clue, from a recent Pew poll that asked: What do you consider yourself first? A citizen of your country or a Muslim?

In the United Kingdom, 7 percent of Muslims consider themselves British first, 81 percent consider themselves Muslim first.

And that's where the really valid Lebanese comparison lies. Lebanon is a sovereign state. It has an executive and a military. But its military has less sophisticated weaponry than Hezbollah and its executive wields less authority over its jurisdiction than Hezbollah. In the old days, the Lebanese government would have fallen and Hezbollah would have formally supplanted the state. But non-state actors like the Hezbo crowd and al-Qaida have no interest in graduating to statehood. They've got bigger fish to fry. If you're interested in establishing a global caliphate, getting a U.N. seat and an Olympic team only gets in the way. The "sovereign" state is of use to such groups merely as a base of operations, as Afghanistan was and Lebanon is. They act locally but they think globally.

And that indifference to the state can be contagious. Lebanon's Christians may think of themselves as "Lebanese," but most of Hezbollah's Shiite constituency don't. Western analysts talk hopefully of fierce differences between Sunni and Shiite, Arab and Persian, but it's interesting to note the numbers of young Sunni men in Egypt, Jordan and elsewhere in recent weeks who've decided that Iran's (Shiite) President Ahmadinejad and his (Shiite) Hezbo proxies are the new cool kids in town. During the '90s, we grew used to the idea that "non-state actors" meant a terrorist group, with maybe a few hundred activists, a few thousand supporters. What if entire populations are being transformed into "non-state actors"? Not terrorists, by any means, but at the very minimum entirely indifferent to the state of which they're nominally citizens.

Hence that statistic: Seven percent of British Muslims consider their primary identity to be British, 81 percent consider it to be Muslim. By comparison, in the most populous Muslim nation on the planet, 39 percent of Muslim Indonesians consider themselves Indonesian first, 36 percent consider themselves Muslim first. For more than four years now, I've been writing about a phenomenon I first encountered in the Muslim ghettoes of the Netherlands, Belgium and other European countries in the spring of 2002: Second- and third-generation European Muslims feel far more fiercely Islamic than their parents and grandparents.

That's the issue: Pan-Islamism is the profound challenge to conventional ideas of citizenship and nationhood. Of course, if you say that at the average Ivy League college, you'll get a big shrug: Modern multicultural man disdains to be bound by the nation state, too; he prides himself on being un citoyen du monde. The difference is that, for Western do-gooders, it's mostly a pose: They may occasionally swing by some Third World basket-case and condescend to the natives, but for the most part the multiculti set have no wish to live anywhere but an advanced Western democracy. It's a quintessential piece of leftie humbug. They may think globally, but they don't act on it.

The pan-Islamists do act. When they hold hands and sing "We Are The World," they mean it. And we're being very complacent if we think they only take over the husks of "failed states" like Afghanistan, Somalia and Lebanon. The Islamists are very good at using the principal features of the modern multicultural democracy -- legalisms, victimology -- to their own advantage. The United Kingdom is, relatively speaking, a non-failed state, but at a certain level Her Majesty's government shares the same problem as their opposite numbers in Beirut: They don't quite dare to move against the pan-Islamists and they have no idea what possible strategy would enable them to do so.

So instead they tackle the symptoms. Excellent investigative work by MI-5 and Scotland Yard foiled this plot, and may foil the next one, and the one after that, and the 10 after that, and the 100 after those. And in the meantime, a thousand incremental inconveniences fall upon the citizen. If you had told an Englishman on Sept. 10, 2001, that within five years all hand luggage would be banned on flights from Britain, he'd have thought you were a kook. If you'd told an Englishwoman that all liquids would be banned except milk for newborn babies that could only be taken on board if the adult accompanying the child drinks from the bottle in front of a security guard, she'd have scoffed and said no one would ever put up with such a ludicrous imposition. But now it's here. What other changes will the Islamists have wrought in another five years?

Absent a determination to throttle the ideology, we're about to witness the unraveling of the world.

©Mark Steyn, 2006

Copyright © Mark Steyn, 2006

Copyright © The Sun-Times Company
All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
http://www.suntimes.com/cgi-bin/print.c ... eyn13.html

In another thread here recently that bastion of rational thought, Zaelath, proposed that dying from terrorism was about as likely as dying from choking on a pretzel. That bit of moral relativism attempts to mask the real impact of the Islamic assault on western culture.

And most of the contributors on this board continue to blame the victim (us) rather than the perpetrators of this takeover. It's hard for me to comprehend this urge to destroy yourselves by actively opposing your own defense. /boggle

Perhaps you all will enjoy attending prayers 5 times a day. It will be good for your souls to re-acquaint yourselves with God.
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Zaelath »

Metanis wrote: In another thread here recently that bastion of rational thought, Zaelath, proposed that dying from terrorism was about as likely as dying from choking on a pretzel. That bit of moral relativism attempts to mask the real impact of the Islamic assault on western culture.
Here's the thing, everything you listed is the impact of FEAR OF TERRORISM which I pointed out is every bit as irrational as the fear of everything else the government/media has told you to fear in the last 50 years; communism, nuclear attack, bird flu, hell even AIDS isn't a serious problem in the developed world.

Driving kills more people every month than terrorism has in your entire history. Are you afraid of driving? Do you think you should be required to re-certify to drive every year? Do you favour a three-strikes law for driving offenses so that you can only get 3 serious moving violations then never drive again? Or are you actually the type of tool that complains about seat belt laws because you're only hurting yourself by not wearing one?

Get some fucking perspective.
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Fairweather Pure »

Or are you actually the type of tool that complains about seat belt laws because you're only hurting yourself by not wearing one?

I believe seatbelt laws are a great way for a state to make more money. When these laws go into effect, a new figure is added to the state and city budgets accounting for how much money seatbelt fines will bring to the table. They soon depend on this money.

Do you think the government cares about you that much? Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I don't think my government gives a flying fuck about me except when it comes to me putting more money in their pockets.

Seatbelt laws are just a means to an end. They use a just cause to further their own ends. This happens on both micro and macro scales everyday, seatbelt laws are just a good everyday example.
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Post by Zaelath »

I might tend to agree with you Pure if we hadn't had them here for years.

First, in most cases people wearing a seatbelt come out of a crash better than those without. Sure, the government doesn't really care about you, but head trauma patients are expensive to care for...

Secondly, since the laws have been in for so long, I don't even know I'm putting it on, it's automatic.

Third and last, I've only ever heard of someone getting a fine for seatbelt infringement once, and it was 20 years ago. It's not like speeding where you can accidentally speed, or they can get a bad reading on their radar, etc, and it's just harder to notice you don't have one on.
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Post by Fash »

Up here in PA, they actually waste time and money doing seatbelt checkpoints like sobriety checkpoints.

I do not wear a seatbelt, but I am like a ninja putting one on when I get pulled over or seeing one of those retarded checkpoints.
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Post by Spang »

i feel naked without a seatbelt strapping me in.
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Post by Fairweather Pure »

The police in Battle Creek, MI are put on seatbelt duty several times a month. They have a collapsable sign in thier trunk. They pull it out and place it on a busy street, then patrol that area specifically for seatbelt violations. When they meet thier quota, they break the sign down and put it back in thier trunk.

It's all about the $$.

I too, am a seatbelt ninja.
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Post by Kaldaur »

Same here Spang, it's second nature for me to get in the car and put a seatbelt on. I've seen video footage of what happens to someone who isn't wearing a seatbelt. Getting tossed around like that doesn't interest me whatsoever.
What was the point of this thread? Let's talk about seatbelts.
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Post by Aslanna »

I've worn them long before they were required by law and credit them with me still being here today as I was involved in a serious accident that may well have been fatal if I wasn't wearing one.

My opinion of being forced to wear a seatbelt (or a helmet) is people can do what they want. But when they die in an accident the only person I'll have sympathy for is the poor person who has to scrape them from the windshield or the asphalt. That and the loved ones they left behind because they were too stupid to wear something as uncool as a seatbelt.

Happy driving!
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Post by Winnow »

It's a shame people need a law for something that's common sense. I have my seatbelt on always even before I start up my vehicle and put it on as a passenger and on the rare occasion I'm in a backseat.

I didn't always do that, especially in my high school and earlier days so there is an awareness curve. A law to help out with that isn't a bad idea. There's plenty of moronic parents that wouldn't tell their kids to buckle up unless they were going to get fined for it if they didn't.
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Post by Demags »

I never get in a car without belting in. Seatbelts keep you at your position at the controls even when things get rough. You cant control your vehicle when your in the passenger seat, that alone is reason enough to wear your seatbelt and have laws forcing you to. If the passengers want to make road pizza of themselves so be it (assuming they are of legal age to make that decision).

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Post by Marbus »

The seat belt laws are bullshit and here is a prime example of why the Govt really dosen't give a shit, it's just that most people roll over and take it...

You can be fined for driving a 2 ton hunk of steel caged around you with out having a seatbelt on... yet it's leagal to ride a motorcycle without even a helmet or any protective gear... WTF ever...

The only seat belt laws that should be allowed in this increasingly government controlled nation are children's laws because they aren't old enough to make that choice yet.

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Post by Sueven »

Fash wrote:I do not wear a seatbelt, but I am like a ninja putting one on when I get pulled over or seeing one of those retarded checkpoints.
Why not? You too Fairweather, why not wear them? In what way does it inconvenience you?

Additionally, I've lived in Pennsylvania for over 20 years and have never in my life seen a seatbelt checkpoint. I don't deny that they exist, but they're certainly not tossed up hither and yon.
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Post by Aslanna »

Marbus wrote:You can be fined for driving a 2 ton hunk of steel caged around you with out having a seatbelt on... yet it's leagal to ride a motorcycle without even a helmet or any protective gear... WTF ever...
Some states have helmet laws where it isn't legal... Now as to how enforced those are I couldn't say.

And really 'a 2 ton hunk of steel caged around you' is a false sense of security. Can I have your stuff?
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Post by Drinsic Darkwood »

I've always worn a seatbelt in a vehicle, driving or not. It just happens subconsciously at this point and something just feels terribly wrong or out of place when if I don't have it on. I feel it's your choice to wear one or not, but as previously asked... why not wear one? A seatbelt doesn't hinder my ability to move / function in the driver's seat at all.

And I don't care if you're Bruce fucking Lee, having ninja reflexes won't be enough to get a seat belt on when some drunk motherfucker knocks your ass off the interstate at 70+ mph and you slam into a tree/wall/oncoming traffic.

But hey, it's your choice. I just don't see any good rationale for not wearing one.
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Post by Kelshara »

Not wearing a seatbelt is simply moronic. Nothing to discuss really.
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Post by Zaelath »

Aslanna wrote:
Marbus wrote:You can be fined for driving a 2 ton hunk of steel caged around you with out having a seatbelt on... yet it's leagal to ride a motorcycle without even a helmet or any protective gear... WTF ever...
Some states have helmet laws where it isn't legal... Now as to how enforced those are I couldn't say.

And really 'a 2 ton hunk of steel caged around you' is a false sense of security. Can I have your stuff?
Exactly, the point of the seatbelt is to keep you in that cage rather than a projectile that goes through the window when it stops suddenly. Didn't any of you do physics in school, have you forgotten what inertia is?

As to motorcycle helmet laws, yes, it's beyond stupid that lobby groups have managed to stop them being implemented/get them repealed in (most?) states. However, just because the squid in his t-shirt and flip-flops doing a wheelie at every green light and a stoppie at every red light doesn't have a helmet on, that doesn't make your seatbelt any less effective.

And in case you're going to say helmets aren't necessary:

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Post by kyoukan »

that's a pretty ass graph for someone complaining about the previous one.

1991 could have been a bad year :vv_ninja:
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Post by Zaelath »

kyoukan wrote:that's a pretty ass graph for someone complaining about the previous one.

1991 could have been a bad year :vv_ninja:
Possibly, but there's a million studies that show that if you slap your head into the pavement with a helmet on you tend to die less :)

eg, http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30 ... desrpt.pdf

Hell, helmets/seatbelts, the benefits are just so completely obvious it beggars belief to argue against them. I note some states let you pay more insurance if you want to ride without a helmet.. according to the data it should be at least triple, but it's nothing like that.
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Post by Niffoni »

In before the de-rai- aw heck, too late.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kelshara wrote:Not wearing a seatbelt is simply moronic. Nothing to discuss really.
Agreed.
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Post by redeemed »

cool, I thought from the title it might be something else but this was really just a seatbelt thread in disguise!
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Post by cadalano »

come on guys lets talk about Metanis he put a lot of thought into this
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Post by cid »

Zaelath wrote:
Possibly, but there's a million studies that show that if you slap your head into the pavement with a helmet on you tend to die less :)
:lol:
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Animalor »

Metanis wrote:They are winning.

In another thread here recently that bastion of rational thought, Zaelath, proposed that dying from terrorism was about as likely as dying from choking on a pretzel. That bit of moral relativism attempts to mask the real impact of the Islamic assault on western culture.

And most of the contributors on this board continue to blame the victim (us) rather than the perpetrators of this takeover. It's hard for me to comprehend this urge to destroy yourselves by actively opposing your own defense. /boggle

Perhaps you all will enjoy attending prayers 5 times a day. It will be good for your souls to re-acquaint yourselves with God.
A bit of a re-rail here for a moment.

What you consider Islamic Culture right now is the view presented by Islamic Fundamentalist.

I lived in an appartment building which had a majority if Islamic immigrants for 7 years and they were some of the nicest people I've met. The vast majority of them aren't intersted in pushing their views on you and just want to be left to live in peace.

Your exactly the type of pawn that the warmongers like cause you see the world in their brand of black and white.

Oh, and BTW... The US was the victim at 9/11. You've been the aggressor ever since then my friend.
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Toshira »

What other changes will the Islamists have wrought in another five years?

Would that be fundamentalist Islamists? Or all Islamists in general?

Yeah. Great food for thought. Really intelligent.

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If terrorism rlated to Islamic Fundamentalism didn't exist, who's to say these changes wouldn't have been implemented in a response to the Timmy McVeighs of the world, anyways?

For how vulnerable several people become in an airplane, I am all for these changes.

P.S. I wear seatbelts, too. Granny went through a windshield when I was 2 and died =/
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by kyoukan »

Toshira wrote:What other changes will the Islamists have wrought in another five years?

Would that be fundamentalist Islamists? Or all Islamists in general?
an islamist is an politically ultra conservative islamic fundamentalist. the word comes from combining islamic and fascist.
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Toshira »

kyoukan wrote:
Toshira wrote:What other changes will the Islamists have wrought in another five years?

Would that be fundamentalist Islamists? Or all Islamists in general?
an islamist is an politically ultra conservative islamic fundamentalist. the word comes from combining islamic and fascist.

...
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Post by Marbus »

Yes there is something to discuss... the point isn't if wearing a seatbelt is a good idea or not wearing one is moronic. The point is that the Government shouldn't be telling you what to do in your car... by not wearing a seatbelt are you hurting anyone else? No Thus the government should stay out of it IMHO.

And don't start on the insurance rates crap either, insurance companies make TONS of cash unless there is a disaster like Katrina. It's just like some of the new smoking laws, then I saw on MSNBC where some people are wanting to ban children from restaurants... damn people grow some balls AND learn how to deal with a little inconvience from others... this nation has become so intolerant of everyone / thing that isn't just like them or might inconvience them it's pathetic...

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Post by Wulfran »

Marbus wrote:Yes there is something to discuss... the point isn't if wearing a seatbelt is a good idea or not wearing one is moronic. The point is that the Government shouldn't be telling you what to do in your car... by not wearing a seatbelt are you hurting anyone else? No Thus the government should stay out of it IMHO.
Wrong.

If you tie up medical resources that could be used to save someone else's life because you're too stupid/stubborn to use some common sense, then you are creating a problem... one that gov't is obligated to address. Gods forbid you actually become a projectile and hit someone after you're thrown through your windshield after piling into someone/something at 70 mph.

And back to the re-rail, anyone else find it ironic that Metanis missed the most obvious ways that terrorists are "winning"? OK its not irony, its typical but still amuses me...
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Post by Lynks »

Marbus wrote:damn people grow some balls AND learn how to deal with a little inconvience from others...
An inconvience like putting on a seatbelt?
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Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Animalor »

kyoukan wrote:
Toshira wrote:What other changes will the Islamists have wrought in another five years?

Would that be fundamentalist Islamists? Or all Islamists in general?
an islamist is an politically ultra conservative islamic fundamentalist. the word comes from combining islamic and fascist.
Let me rephrase then and replace islamist for muslim.
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Post by Boogahz »

Marbus wrote:Yes there is something to discuss... the point isn't if wearing a seatbelt is a good idea or not wearing one is moronic. The point is that the Government shouldn't be telling you what to do in your car... by not wearing a seatbelt are you hurting anyone else? No Thus the government should stay out of it IMHO.

And don't start on the insurance rates crap either, insurance companies make TONS of cash unless there is a disaster like Katrina. It's just like some of the new smoking laws, then I saw on MSNBC where some people are wanting to ban children from restaurants... damn people grow some balls AND learn how to deal with a little inconvience from others... this nation has become so intolerant of everyone / thing that isn't just like them or might inconvience them it's pathetic...

Marb
Considering that the insurance rates are tied to the medical costs - which are tied to the differences in cost between drivers wearing/not wearing seatbelts/helmets (along with many other factors)....yes, it's valid. If you really think the insurance companies are racking in the big bucks...you might want to look at where that money is kept. The companies basically operate with huge required reserves just in-case something happens. If nothing happens for a long enough period of time, the rates can go down because the payouts are less. While the individual states do not dictate rates, they are who actually approves any rate/rating factor being used in their state.

I have lived in a state which would only ticket you for no seatbelt if you were pulled over for something else, and I have lived in a state that will pull you over just for not wearing it. I always wear it regardless of state law. Watch someone get catapulted through a windshield (if all of them makes it), and then tell me it's not safer to stay secured in the vehicle by a seatbelt.
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Post by *~*stragi*~* »

this thread went from retarded neoncon cheerleading to seatbelts and i didn't even post in it
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Post by Kelshara »

Marbus wrote:Yes there is something to discuss... the point isn't if wearing a seatbelt is a good idea or not wearing one is moronic. The point is that the Government shouldn't be telling you what to do in your car... by not wearing a seatbelt are you hurting anyone else? No Thus the government should stay out of it IMHO.
If a person is too stupid to wear a seatbelt (which is not only dangerous to that person but to others around him) there is a need for a law. You can't ride your car around naked either.

Small story: I did a 180 in a car once. The only thing holding me in my seat was the seatbelt. Thanks to staying in the seat I managed to ditch the car rather than hitting the other car I was heading straight into. Case in point: Seatbelt saved other people from injury.
Marbus wrote:damn people grow some balls AND learn how to deal with a little inconvience from others... this nation has become so intolerant of everyone / thing that isn't just like them or might inconvience them it's pathetic...
I find it hilarious that somebody arguing against a seatbelt law says that. Truly hilarious.
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Kylere
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
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Joined: July 3, 2002, 6:26 pm
Location: Flint, Michigan

Post by Kylere »

Anyone that rides in a car without a seatbelt deserves to die. I wear my seat belt out of a sense of reality and my desire to not cause someone else to feel guilt over my death. Because the people that suffer the most from idiots like that are the EMS personnel, firefighters, police, and the drivers of other cars involved in accidents with them.

Wearing a seatbelt is not a hassle, annoyance etc, just do it everytime and eventually you will not even notice it. The side track on motorcycles is silly, maybe we need to make anyone riding a bike sign a waiver of intelligence, because when operating one on public roads you need to face the fact that most cars could give a frak less about you, and that you are likely to die.


The original thread? LOL The US has already lost the war on terrorism. The diplomat Richard Jackson said, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" ( but it is usually attributed to Franklin or Jefferson)

That Homeland Security Department is a clear violation of our essential liberties, and as such the US and its history of Freedom has effectively ended. If there are people writing history books in 500 years, they will note that that the period 91-01 ended the effective practice of personal freedom in the US.

Windsor aka South Detroit seems to be a cool place to live though.
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Toshira
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Joined: July 23, 2002, 7:49 pm
Location: White Flight Land, USA

Re: Food for thought; changes wrought by terrorism.

Post by Toshira »

Animalor wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Toshira wrote:What other changes will the Islamists have wrought in another five years?

Would that be fundamentalist Islamists? Or all Islamists in general?
an islamist is an politically ultra conservative islamic fundamentalist. the word comes from combining islamic and fascist.
Let me rephrase then and replace islamist for muslim.
WTF.

Going to assume you're baiting, or incredibly silly. Muslim = follower of Islam. Islam has many forms, not all recognized by one another. Islam has passages within the Qur'an that are intolerant of others and call for their death (as Christianity does with the Bible, another monotheistic religion). It also has passages which teach compassion, humility, etc, also similar to the Bible.

As far as Kyo's quote, perhaps I'm confused because it's not in her usual loving "Toshira you dumbass", or it's sarcasm and I'm just sleepy, but no, Islamist does not come from combining Islamic and Facist. It's from Islam and the suffix -ist. "(T)he suffix '-ist' has multiple meanings in English, corresponding to (i) "advocate of", (ii) "user of/expert in", and (iii) "detractor of"."

Hence, "..."

Marbus, regarding "The point is that the Government shouldn't be telling you what to do in your car... by not wearing a seatbelt are you hurting anyone else? No Thus the government should stay out of it IMHO. "

Fine. You don't want to wear your seatbelt in your car because the government shouldn't tell you what to do in your car? Fine. I agree. However, as soon as your dumb ass starts driving on Government funded/constructed roads, your argument fails. Come on...put it on...you don't want your last thought to be "shit, Wulfran was right", do you?
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