The Liberal Media Painting Grim Picture in Iraq

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 20, 2006, 2:01 pm

Oh wait these are the soldiers themselves....
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... ml?cnn=yes

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 20, 2006, 2:38 pm

Clearly these troops don't support the troops.

If we had some real leathernecks over there like Aruman and Metanis (true soldiers), Iraq would be a democratic utopia by now. Instead all we have are these liberal wussies who probably just want to talk to the insurgents to get their side of the story.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » July 20, 2006, 2:40 pm

Could we start a fund to send them?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 20, 2006, 3:26 pm

Anne Marie Cox???? Please dont tell me that this is the same writer for http://www.wonkette.com??? If so your hanging your hat on an article from a former gossip columnist from Washington.

On a side note:

Oh Nossss you found some miltary personal that made a video joking around about there time in Iraq!!! why is it when an Email or video of anything postive the United States is doing is propaganda and when something like this come out the Liberal Lemmings say " Look even the Soldiers say its bad over there".

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 4:39 pm

Oh Nossss you found some miltary personal that made a video joking around about there time in Iraq!!! why is it when an Email or video of anything postive the United States is doing is propaganda and when something like this come out the Liberal Lemmings say " Look even the Soldiers say its bad over there".

Because the US isn't achieving anything positive in Iraq and tosuggest anything else is either lies, ignorance or propoganda.

Is Liberal the most overused irrelevant word of the day today? OMG YOU GUYS ARE LIBERALS WHICH MEANS OPEN MINDED LOL LEMMINGS WHY NOT BE SMALL MINDED AND INDOCTRINATED LIKE US GOD I LOVE AMERICA

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 20, 2006, 8:12 pm

kyoukan wrote:Clearly these troops don't support the troops.

If we had some real leathernecks over there like Aruman and Metanis (true soldiers), Iraq would be a democratic utopia by now. Instead all we have are these liberal wussies who probably just want to talk to the insurgents to get their side of the story.

The National Guardsman in the frame looks grim. His bunkmates are cutting up a bit, clowning for the camera. The cameraman tries to coax some action out the unwilling documentary subject,

Pfft... and double pfft...

Saw National Guard and dismissed this entirely.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 8:20 pm

Yeah those guys aren't real soldiers, they are only fighting in Iraq after all.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 20, 2006, 8:31 pm

They aren't real, hardened, seasoned veteran asskickers like my man Aruman here. If only there were more like him.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2006, 8:31 pm

LOL

You guys don't get it at all. You wouldn't tolerate players in your clubhouse painting a grim picture of your ballclub, but it okay here. You just have no forward vision at all when it comes to America. It's really sad how dumb you people can be at times. You are a disgrace to the education system.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 20, 2006, 8:34 pm

Nick wrote:Yeah those guys aren't real soldiers, they are only fighting in Iraq after all.

You are right, they aren't 'real' in the sense of their training, motivation, physical conditioning, mental conditioning, or anything else you could come up with to compare them to an active duty unit.

I'm not applying this as a blanket statement to individuals but as a reflection of the unit capabilities. NG units are far inferior to active duty units in all aspects. However, there are some individuals who leave active service and go to NG units, and actually take the service seriously.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 8:39 pm

I can guarantee you wouldn't say that last sentence to their faces bigshot.

Oh and to Midnyte, do you believe in free speech or not? If so, edit your post before you let any more people see how much of a retard you are. If not, edit your post before you let any more people see how much of a retard you are.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2006, 8:42 pm

Nick wrote:I can guarantee you wouldn't say that last sentence to their faces bigshot.

Oh and to Midnyte, do you believe in free speech or not? If so, edit your post before you let any more people see how much of a retard you are. If not, edit your post before you let any more people see how much of a retard you are.

Are you fuckign kidding me? Do you call out everyone else when they say absolutely awful things to me? Edit my post? WTF?!?!? You can see I'm fuckign copying the others on this board who can only use insults to respond to others? Holy shit. You're a fuckign prime example of my post. Read again bigshot! *middle finger*

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2006, 8:44 pm

Aruman wrote:
Nick wrote:Yeah those guys aren't real soldiers, they are only fighting in Iraq after all.
You are right, they aren't 'real' in the sense of their training, motivation, physical conditioning, mental conditioning, or anything else you could come up with to compare them to an active duty unit.
.

I'm sure soldiers have always felt scared and agry about having to go fight places, etc. But, not until today have they been conditioned by todays media that it is okay to voice their opinion. In the military you should only be allowed to voice one opinion and thats the one given to you by your superiors.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 8:47 pm

Way to avoid answering the question.

As for insulting others, we all do it here, few of us give it much thought or real malice so cry more and answer the question.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2006, 9:01 pm

Nick wrote:Way to avoid answering the question.

As for insulting others, we all do it here, few of us give it much thought or real malice so cry more and answer the question.

What question? Do I believe in free speech? Are you fucking serious? Do I believe water is wet? Ask something worth fucking answering. Believing in free speech and having codes of conduct within certain ranks is completely different. Dude you need to grow the fuck up. Everythign in life isn't black and white. Just as free speech limits yelling "FIRE" in a crowded area, there are other situations that are just as if not more important. If there can be that one exception don't you think there can be others? Just because you lack the ability or time to understand the importance of having those exceptions doesn't mean everyone does.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 20, 2006, 9:06 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Nick wrote:Yeah those guys aren't real soldiers, they are only fighting in Iraq after all.
You are right, they aren't 'real' in the sense of their training, motivation, physical conditioning, mental conditioning, or anything else you could come up with to compare them to an active duty unit.
.
I'm sure soldiers have always felt scared and agry about having to go fight places, etc. But, not until today have they been conditioned by todays media that it is okay to voice their opinion. In the military you should only be allowed to voice one opinion and thats the one given to you by your superiors.

I don't exactly agree with that last sentence. There is a time and a place for opinions and so on....

As far as fear goes, yes... I can tell you without a doubt that no one in the units I am talking about were war-mongers. However, don't confuse this with reluctance... they were by no means afraid to take the fight to someone when necessary.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 9:08 pm

I may as well talk to a brick wall.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2006, 9:15 pm

Nick wrote:I may as well talk to a brick wall.

Way to answer the question.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 9:33 pm

You guys don't get it at all. You wouldn't tolerate players in your clubhouse painting a grim picture of your ballclub, but it okay here.

Are you comparing your country to a Baseball team? That's so beyond retarded I can't begin to fathom. Even using that analogy, you're wrong.

You just have no forward vision at all when it comes to America.

What? Should everyone just be like you and welcome the introduction of punishment for speaking out against your country whilst screaming FUCK MUSLIMS.

Yeah man that would be a real fucking progressive vision, if only those pesky liberals didn't respect some of those fundamental rights of the constitution and stopped their hippy gayass "all men are equal regardless of race and religion" bullshit! What a disgrace to intellectual thought they are.

. Just as free speech limits yelling "FIRE" in a crowded area, there are other situations that are just as if not more important.

Yeah, thats cool, except in Iraq, there are fires, fuckloads of them, caused by you and they (along with the bombs bullets and murder) are so bad journalists and soldiers are more restricted in their movement than they were 2 years ago. I'm sure all those burned bodies, dead soldiers, lies and increased insurgency are all just facets of that silly liberal uneducated mindset again.

Even your own soldiers think it's a bullshit war. Then again, history has a tendency to repeat itself.

If there can be that one exception don't you think there can be others?

Yes, but not in this case. Comparing some prick in a cinema going lOL fiRE and a soldier documenting his experience in Iraq is so utterly fucking retarded it's beyond belief.

ust because you lack the ability or time to understand the importance of having those exceptions doesn't mean everyone does.

You pull up bullshit analogy's that are completely irrelevant and inappropriate and have the nerve to assume a moral highground - then wonder why people have no time for you.

Jesus fucking christ.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2006, 10:33 pm

Wow. Nevermind. It is impossible to talk to you now. Maybe in 10 years. Back to the sports and movie forums for me. /boggle

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 20, 2006, 10:57 pm

Nick wrote: Even your own soldiers think it's a bullshit war.

There you go using blanket statements...

The few that are speaking out are an extremely tiny fraction of a percentage of the military as a whole.

There will always be the few in the military that bitch about anything and everything.

More than likely the ones who are 'speaking out' are the black sheep of the units they are in, and would probably have been discharged under other than honorable conditions in peacetime.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 10:59 pm

Does that just mean the rest are stupid?

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 20, 2006, 11:04 pm

Nick wrote:Does that just mean the rest are stupid?

To someone like you it would seem that way. To someone who depends on the person next to him in combat... it's another situation entirely.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 11:19 pm

To someone like me, IE someone who accepts elementary moral principles.

Something the likes of you and Mid still haven't grasped.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 20, 2006, 11:37 pm

Hey man, you haven't been down face first in the mud in a fox hole, dodging Charlie with only your band of brothers to rely on like Aruman has. so maybe you should just shut your trap and maybe one day you will know better.

I salute you sir; a patriot and a true warrior.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 20, 2006, 11:39 pm

Nick wrote:To someone like me, IE someone who accepts elementary moral principles.

Something the likes of you and Mid still haven't grasped.

I fully understand the concept of what it means to trust others with my life and be responsible for the lives of others.

You on the other hand are part of the Me generation. If it doesn't help or benefit you somehow you couldn't give a crap about it.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 20, 2006, 11:51 pm

What meaningless drivel.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » July 20, 2006, 11:52 pm

Aruman wrote:
Nick wrote: Even your own soldiers think it's a bullshit war.
There you go using blanket statements...

The few that are speaking out are an extremely tiny fraction of a percentage of the military as a whole.

There will always be the few in the military that bitch about anything and everything.

More than likely the ones who are 'speaking out' are the black sheep of the units they are in, and would probably have been discharged under other than honorable conditions in peacetime.

That wasn't a blanket statement...He didn't say all our soldiers

The few speaking out on both sides are a tiny fraction...Hell the few given an opportunity to speak out are a tiny fraction...You however are using what super power to ascertain what the majority of them are thinking?

You are impuning people risking their lives for this country on pure speculation. Really, don't you support our troops?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 21, 2006, 12:20 am

Arborealus wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Nick wrote: Even your own soldiers think it's a bullshit war.
There you go using blanket statements...

The few that are speaking out are an extremely tiny fraction of a percentage of the military as a whole.

There will always be the few in the military that bitch about anything and everything.

More than likely the ones who are 'speaking out' are the black sheep of the units they are in, and would probably have been discharged under other than honorable conditions in peacetime.
That wasn't a blanket statement...He didn't say all our soldiers

The few speaking out on both sides are a tiny fraction...Hell the few given an opportunity to speak out are a tiny fraction...You however are using what super power to ascertain what the majority of them are thinking?

You are impuning people risking their lives for this country on pure speculation. Really, don't you support our troops?

They're both doing the same thing.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 21, 2006, 2:11 am

Arborealus wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Nick wrote: Even your own soldiers think it's a bullshit war.
There you go using blanket statements...

The few that are speaking out are an extremely tiny fraction of a percentage of the military as a whole.

There will always be the few in the military that bitch about anything and everything.

More than likely the ones who are 'speaking out' are the black sheep of the units they are in, and would probably have been discharged under other than honorable conditions in peacetime.
That wasn't a blanket statement...He didn't say all our soldiers

The few speaking out on both sides are a tiny fraction...Hell the few given an opportunity to speak out are a tiny fraction...You however are using what super power to ascertain what the majority of them are thinking?

You are impuning people risking their lives for this country on pure speculation. Really, don't you support our troops?

Not speculation at all... pure experience my friend. I know how things work in combat arms units very, very well.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » July 21, 2006, 2:56 am

You are right, they aren't 'real' in the sense of their training, motivation, physical conditioning, mental conditioning, or anything else you could come up with to compare them to an active duty unit.

You really are a stupid cocksucker arnt you? What the fuck have you ever done in shit filled life? I can point to just as many ate up active duty units.,as guardsmen. No motivation? How about giving up their full time lives to go replace thoese "Active Duty" toops in a war zone. Go though the same fucking training,although not as much but the same as active duty. You have just as many fat bodies in the guard/reserves as you do on active duty.

65% of the damn troops over there are reserves/national guard. To even try and pull the active duty bullshit over on the reserves or the guard goes to show you what kind of asshole you truely are. I personally would love to shove my foot down your cockholder you fucking tool.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 21, 2006, 3:29 am

Aruman fought and sacrificed for your freedom you ungrateful son of a bitch!

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 22, 2006, 3:00 pm

Raistin wrote:
You are right, they aren't 'real' in the sense of their training, motivation, physical conditioning, mental conditioning, or anything else you could come up with to compare them to an active duty unit.
You really are a stupid cocksucker arnt you? What the fuck have you ever done in shit filled life? I can point to just as many ate up active duty units.,as guardsmen. No motivation? How about giving up their full time lives to go replace thoese "Active Duty" toops in a war zone. Go though the same fucking training,although not as much but the same as active duty. You have just as many fat bodies in the guard/reserves as you do on active duty.

65% of the damn troops over there are reserves/national guard. To even try and pull the active duty bullshit over on the reserves or the guard goes to show you what kind of asshole you truely are. I personally would love to shove my foot down your cockholder you fucking tool.

Blah blah blah...

I don't recall saying 'ate up'. That is something you pulled out of your ass filled mouth. There is no way you can deny that NG units aren't comparable to Active Duty units. Let me clarify this a bit... I'm talking about the kind of units I was in... notably Infantry Units, of the Airborne variety.

NG giving up their 'full time lives'. Thanks for affirming the nickname 'Weekend Warriors'. Active Duty are in their 'full time lives', and not just 8-10 hours a day. It's 24/7.

Fat bodies? Who said anything about that? I think someone is 'protesting too much'. Did I strike a personal nerve? Something to feel self-conscious about? Regardless, those with 'fat bodies' who couldn't perform physically(PT Test or in the field) were not cut any slack. They were most often discharged after being given a certain amount of time to meet expectations. You know... that weakest link saying. Someone who was physically unable to cut it was eliminated, and quickly.

Your 'pseudo-fact' about going through the same training isn't exactly correct. They go through the same 'BASIC Training' and the same initial MoS training, but that's it.

NG doesn't train anywhere close to the same intensity or duration as active units. Period.

65% of what kind of troops? Support and what else? Maybe some Combat Arms units. If any NG Combat Arms units are in the areas where combat operations are taking place, I can pretty much guarantee they are doing things like providing security and not participating in actual offensive operations.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » July 22, 2006, 3:09 pm

Who cares how much training they go through? They're all over there dying. Jesus, man, listen to yourself. The National Guardsman in Iraq is still a "weekend warrior"?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 22, 2006, 3:11 pm

You have to look at things with the perspective of a hardened military combat veteran like Aruman.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 22, 2006, 3:24 pm

Kaldaur wrote:Who cares how much training they go through? They're all over there dying. Jesus, man, listen to yourself. The National Guardsman in Iraq is still a "weekend warrior"?

I didn't bring the subject up, someone else did by attempting to lead people to believe something falsely.

I am merely relating my experiences and knowledge of how the NG operates. If people don't like it then there is nothing I can do about it, but it does not change the fact that NG units do not have anywhere near the capabilities of an Active Duty Unit.

Sure, respect them for doing what they are doing. I never said they suck or anything like that.

All I am implying/saying is that NG aren't as well trained, or as mentally or physically prepared as Active Duty units. NG can't even come close. I guess you could say they aren't nearly as disciplined and as such are more prone to having morale problems. This is why I pretty much dismissed the article. I just see it as some whiner venting.

When they get back home. They will go back to their one weekend a month, 2 weeks in the year 'training' and be happy.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » July 22, 2006, 3:41 pm

So, in effect, you're saying that every person on the internet posting is either, a. an undisciplined national guardsman, or b. the black sheep of their company.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 22, 2006, 3:50 pm

Kaldaur wrote:So, in effect, you're saying that every person on the internet posting is either, a. an undisciplined national guardsman, or b. the black sheep of their company.

Sigh... read the article from the original post.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » July 22, 2006, 6:36 pm

Aruman wrote:If any NG Combat Arms units are in the areas where combat operations are taking place, I can pretty much guarantee they are doing things like providing security and not participating in actual offensive operations.

You can't guarantee that, because it's untrue. There are quite a few NG units that do more than just "provide security".

laneela · Post by **laneela** » July 22, 2006, 7:44 pm

Aruman wrote:
Raistin wrote:
You are right, they aren't 'real' in the sense of their training, motivation, physical conditioning, mental conditioning, or anything else you could come up with to compare them to an active duty unit.
You really are a stupid cocksucker arnt you? What the fuck have you ever done in shit filled life? I can point to just as many ate up active duty units.,as guardsmen. No motivation? How about giving up their full time lives to go replace thoese "Active Duty" toops in a war zone. Go though the same fucking training,although not as much but the same as active duty. You have just as many fat bodies in the guard/reserves as you do on active duty.

65% of the damn troops over there are reserves/national guard. To even try and pull the active duty bullshit over on the reserves or the guard goes to show you what kind of asshole you truely are. I personally would love to shove my foot down your cockholder you fucking tool.

Blah blah blah...

I don't recall saying 'ate up'. That is something you pulled out of your ass filled mouth. There is no way you can deny that NG units aren't comparable to Active Duty units. Let me clarify this a bit... I'm talking about the kind of units I was in... notably Infantry Units, of the Airborne variety.

NG giving up their 'full time lives'. Thanks for affirming the nickname 'Weekend Warriors'. Active Duty are in their 'full time lives', and not just 8-10 hours a day. It's 24/7.

Fat bodies? Who said anything about that? I think someone is 'protesting too much'. Did I strike a personal nerve? Something to feel self-conscious about? Regardless, those with 'fat bodies' who couldn't perform physically(PT Test or in the field) were not cut any slack. They were most often discharged after being given a certain amount of time to meet expectations. You know... that weakest link saying. Someone who was physically unable to cut it was eliminated, and quickly.

Your 'pseudo-fact' about going through the same training isn't exactly correct. They go through the same 'BASIC Training' and the same initial MoS training, but that's it.

NG doesn't train anywhere close to the same intensity or duration as active units. Period.

65% of what kind of troops? Support and what else? Maybe some Combat Arms units. If any NG Combat Arms units are in the areas where combat operations are taking place, I can pretty much guarantee they are doing things like providing security and not participating in actual offensive operations.

I too saw Full Metal Jacket!

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » July 22, 2006, 8:03 pm

All I am implying/saying is that NG aren't as well trained, or as mentally or physically prepared as Active Duty units. NG can't even come close. I guess you could say they aren't nearly as disciplined and as such are more prone to having morale problems. This is why I pretty much dismissed the article. I just see it as some whiner venting.

Since they're your own words, I just wanted to confirm it. You dismissed this article of soldiers painting a grim picture in Iraq because they are all whiners and undisciplined soldiers, the black sheep of the battalion, or national guardsmen. Their lack of training makes them see a different picture in Iraq, and their lack of discipline compels them to speak of things they see and feel.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 22, 2006, 10:11 pm

Hoarmurath wrote:
Aruman wrote:If any NG Combat Arms units are in the areas where combat operations are taking place, I can pretty much guarantee they are doing things like providing security and not participating in actual offensive operations.
You can't guarantee that, because it's untrue. There are quite a few NG units that do more than just "provide security".

Prove it. Give examples of their active participation where they aren't providing security.

If you are in command there... And it surely will not be a NG officer... who would you send into a fight? People that train for this activity continually, or someone who at most 'trained' (and by trained I mean units who bring coolers full of sodas and vehicles carrying grills and junk food) to the field while they sit around talking about what they need to do instead of practicing what they preach.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 22, 2006, 10:12 pm

I would send in a battalion of loudmouthed neocon pussies that talk about how hard they are on the internet. would you like to lead the charge?

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 22, 2006, 10:18 pm

Kaldaur wrote:
All I am implying/saying is that NG aren't as well trained, or as mentally or physically prepared as Active Duty units. NG can't even come close. I guess you could say they aren't nearly as disciplined and as such are more prone to having morale problems. This is why I pretty much dismissed the article. I just see it as some whiner venting.
Since they're your own words, I just wanted to confirm it. You dismissed this article of soldiers painting a grim picture in Iraq because they are all whiners and undisciplined soldiers, the black sheep of the battalion, or national guardsmen. Their lack of training makes them see a different picture in Iraq, and their lack of discipline compels them to speak of things they see and feel.

Not quite...

I dismiss the National Guardsman painting a grim picture of Iraq, because he is most likely a whiner. Which battalion (if in fact he is even in a combat unit) is irrelevant.

Lack of training, discipline and everything I mentioned will make them much more likely to see things in a different light because they are more concerned about themselves, and how being away from home affects their 'real lives'.

For Active Duty this is much less of a concern because, as I said, they are 24/7 while NG is 2 weeks, and one weekend a month each year.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » July 23, 2006, 12:37 am

Aruman wrote:Prove it. Give examples of their active participation where they aren't providing security.

20th SFG(A). You seem to be able to use the Internet, find the examples yourself.

Aruman wrote:For Active Duty this is much less of a concern because, as I said, they are 24/7 while NG is 2 weeks, and one weekend a month each year.

Bullshit. Active Duty personnel go on exercises more often, and I agree that they are better trained, but they are not training 24/7.

When I was active duty, I looked down on NG units, too. Now I've come to realize what they bring to the table. You, on the other hand, seem to still be lost in anti-NG land somewhere.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 23, 2006, 1:19 am

Hoarmurath wrote:
Aruman wrote:Prove it. Give examples of their active participation where they aren't providing security.
20th SFG(A). You seem to be able to use the Internet, find the examples yourself.

Aruman wrote:For Active Duty this is much less of a concern because, as I said, they are 24/7 while NG is 2 weeks, and one weekend a month each year.
Bullshit. Active Duty personnel go on exercises more often, and I agree that they are better trained, but they are not training 24/7.

When I was active duty, I looked down on NG units, too. Now I've come to realize what they bring to the table. You, on the other hand, seem to still be lost in anti-NG land somewhere.

Bullshit? Sorry, but you are wrong. We were subject to going to the field at any time, for unspecified lengths of time. It didn't make a difference what time of day it was. I personally spent at least 10-12 hours every day during the week on training when not in the field. Our weekends were generally free time when not in the field, but by no means was it untouchable. This is not and never will be the case with an NG unit. Their 'training' is planned out well in advance.

I also want to say that I am not 'looking down' on NG the way you think I am. They do what their training allows them to do. I'll say it again... NG are not as capable as Active Duty Units, not even close. It doesn't matter what type of unit it is.

Now, tell me this... do you really think someone not physically or mentally fit, relatively lower disipline, and lacking motivation would cut it in any kind of SF unit? NG or otherwise? I could answer it for you: No... they would be booted very quickly. SF teams in and of themselves are much closer knit than any other kind of unit for the simple reason that an SF team is so small. As such discipline and so on is much higher, mostly due to the competitive nature of such a unit. This competitiveness doesn't really exist in conventional NG units. I also think it is pretty safe to say that the majority of those in NG SF units were previously Active Duty. Therefore they bring a much higher level of ability with them when they leave active duty and join an NG SF unit.

Quote from your reference site:

One of the top complaints of Guard units is the lack of full-time staff.

‘‘You are asking a Guard group to process the same promotions, order the same amount of ammunition, construct the same amount of training schedules with about 14 people at a group headquarters, as opposed to about 200 here on active duty,’’ Burford said. ‘‘It’s very, very, very difficult for them to get it all done.’’

Training time is also limited.

‘‘They drill two days a month, maybe three in some cases, and attempt to sustain the same training levels and minimums as do the active component, because there is one standard, and they do so,’’ Burford said.

I can guarantee you that Active Duty SF trains to perform well above the minimum standards required. The quote also implies that training of this unit suffers because of lack of personnel...

Do I need to go on about the difference in capabilites?

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » July 23, 2006, 10:47 am

Okay, I agree with the gist of your argument, I just take exception to the wide brush you're using to paint both NG and AD units. I just think that NG units are trained a lot better than they used to be, and are (in general) better than you're giving them credit for. I also believe that you're "talking up" AD units more than they deserve (not all units, just some). Just like anywhere else, you have great, well-trained, highly motivated, disciplined NG units (perhaps the exception to the rule) and you also have AD units that could use a swift kick in the ass (again, the exception).

To discount an opinion just because it's from an NG soldier seems unwise to me. Although there may be plenty of reasons to ignore the guy (maybe he hates being called up and just wants to go home and get his college money), doing so based soley on how he chooses to serve his country seems unfairly discriminatory.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 23, 2006, 9:32 pm

Hoarmurath wrote:Okay, I agree with the gist of your argument, I just take exception to the wide brush you're using to paint both NG and AD units. I just think that NG units are trained a lot better than they used to be, and are (in general) better than you're giving them credit for. I also believe that you're "talking up" AD units more than they deserve (not all units, just some). Just like anywhere else, you have great, well-trained, highly motivated, disciplined NG units (perhaps the exception to the rule) and you also have AD units that could use a swift kick in the ass (again, the exception).

To discount an opinion just because it's from an NG soldier seems unwise to me. Although there may be plenty of reasons to ignore the guy (maybe he hates being called up and just wants to go home and get his college money), doing so based soley on how he chooses to serve his country seems unfairly discriminatory.

Understandable. It's difficult to express opinions though text alone. I don't need to explain the missing nuances that are present when talking face to face.

I wasn't attempting to look down on NG. All units have their capabilities and are used based on that. I just don't believe the National Guard have it as rough as AD military do. Interpret rough however you wish, but I think you know what I mean.

Until I see the 101st, 82nd, or other RDF forces in Iraq doing what this Guardsman did, I have no reason to believe it is credible. That was the point I was trying to get across, and apparently unsuccessfully. It required reading between the lines.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » July 23, 2006, 11:32 pm

Aruman wrote:Interpret rough however you wish, but I think you know what I mean.

I spent 4 years with the 101st, so yeah I think I know what you mean.

As far as reading between the lines goes, well, I'm always wrong when I do that, so I just take everything at face value and let the ensuing flames bring out the nuance. It's more entertaining that way, anyway.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 24, 2006, 7:51 pm

Does anyone else hear the A-Team theme music in their head whenever reading an Aruman post?

Anyhow, the real issue here, if you want to get into the whole NG vs regulars argument, it that our defense spending has been systematically routed to these expensive uber tech weapons (primarily aircraft and airborne weapon systems) that is of no real practical use in an occupation. Occupation requires lots of feet on the ground and the DoD has been cutting back on the standing army for years to pay for all these new toys, a trend that began during the HW Bush years and persisted through the Clinton years and into the present.

The direct consequence is that we are stretched to the limit and using NG units to plug the gaps in roles they were never meant to be taking on. This has also resulted in incidents like the whole family massacre and the rape incident, as we are forced to use less than ideal people to take up the slack and people's stress levels are pushed to the limit. The whole Abu Garib situation probably didn't help set a good example, either. End result is we are in a bigger shithole than we ever were in Veit Nam and its going to get a lot worse before its over. It could quite possibly bankrupt us and end our days as a super power. It very likely is going to tie our hands so that Iran and Syria can have their way with Israel (every cloud has a silver lining) with that shit storm erupting now.

Ripping the NG is disgraceful, though. Those guys are doing something they never should have been required to do. They are supposed to be a domestic defense and disaster relief force that supplements the military, as needed, not a fucking full time occupying force.