Rogue Update coming in 1.12

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 11, 2006, 4:07 pm

This is from a Blue post on the rogue forums.

The review is well underway and we wanted to share a sort of first glimpse into the changes being made for the rogue talent review. Keep in mind that these changes are not complete or final, and the below information is likely to alter as we move into our testing phases. While not everything is listed, the below list encompasses the majority of changes being made in the review.

I'll be working in the weeks to come to get as much additional information as possible, but it is likely that quite a bit of the final information regarding talent changes will not be fully announced until the talent calculators go live. Of course you'll also be able to actually play around with the changes too once the Public Test Realms go up.

I'm going to just list the changes and provide additional information where possible or necessary. Let's get to it.

The following talents have been removed: Improved Deadly Poison, Improved Distract, Throwing Weapon Specialization, Improved Vanish, and Rapid Concealment.

Improved Instant Poison is now "Improved Poisons" and increases your chance to apply ALL poisons by 2/4/6/8/10%.

Rapid Concealment has been merged with Camouflage, by combining these talents you not only get a great talent to start off the tree, but obviously it frees up a number of points to be spent elsewhere.

Murder will now also apply to all finishing moves. The benefit this will provide to output and attack combinations is fairly straightforward.

Vile Poisons now gives your poisons a chance to resist dispel effects, in addition to increasing poison damage.

Improved Kidney Shot has been changed, and will instead increase the damage taken by the target while they are affected by Kidney Shot. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Kidney Shot.

Improved Sprint has been changed, and will instead have a 50/100% chance to remove all movement impairing effects when you activate your Sprint ability. This talent no longer reduces the cooldown of Sprint.

Improved Evasion renamed to Endurance, and will add a Sprint cooldown reduction.

New talent Weapon Expertise in the Combat tree, increases your weapon skill with all melee weapons. The recovery of damage with an increased weapon skill should be a good boost to overall output.

Initiative is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75% end chance to add an additional combo point.

Elusiveness is being reduced to a 3 point talent, but resulting in the same 75 sec cooldown reduction to Evasion, Blind, and Vanish.

Ghostly Strike now has a reduced Energy cost, the reduction of Energy was enough to make it necessary to also reduce the damage output slightly.

Improved Garrotes damage reduction will be removed. This is being changed as part of an overall improvement for Garrote.

Setup is being moved higher up in the tree, becoming a 16 point talent with no prerequisites, helping move the talent in reach of specific builds.

New talent Heightened Senses in the subtlety tree, increases your Stealth detection, and reduces the chance for you to be hit by spells and ranged attacks.

Hemorrhage will be moved up in the tree to become a 21 point talent. This should help to place the ability in a more reachable position, and allow for a little more versatility with specific talent builds.

New talent Deadliness in the Subtlety tree, increases your Attack Power by a percentage.

Premeditation will have its Energy requirement removed, changed to an instant cast, and range increased. Its cooldown will remain the same. Premeditation will now be pre-reqd by Preperation.

Vanish will now remove effects that allow the caster to remain aware of the rogues presence, such as Mind Vision and Hunters Mark.

Garrote, Rupture, and Eviscerate are being increased in damage. More details to come.

Expose Armor will now reduce armor by a percentage.

I'll be continuing to speak with the designers and collecting as much additional information as possible in the coming weeks.

Thanks for reading.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 11, 2006, 4:09 pm

Now from what I have been reading there are a lot of pissed off Combat Dagger Rogues. To be honest I really don't understand why. I am combat daggers and I amd doing just fine. I am a 17/32/2 build and I really like the damage output I am doing.

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » July 12, 2006, 4:26 am

16/25/10 is combat daggers, without opportunity you are crippling your dagger damage output. No idea what the 2 points in sub is for if you're not going to opportunity since combat daggers is intended to be a pure PvE damage spec.

As to the review it's mostly unimpressive to me so far. Almost all of it is just talent moves/revamps that don't address the core issues with rogues in the endgame right now. The review is looking more positive for sword combat builds than daggers so far as well which is unnecessary considering swords are already comparable damage with daggers in PvE without the positioning requirements. With weapon expertise swords will gain the one advantage daggers had which was multiple +dagger skill items.

It's pretty clear the rogue class is boned so long as they have to be balanced between PvE/PvP. At lest I have a fury warrior I can play instead of my rogue.

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » July 12, 2006, 7:35 am

For anyone interested in the rogue review there is a very interesting thread where a guy threw together his own talent calculator with lots of changes to the trees. There are some areas that would have to be balanced but on the whole it really addresses a lot of the core talent issues with rogues right now and particularly in the review.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... &tmp=1#new

Another good thread is one showing the numbers of combat dagger specs versus combat swords and just how close they are in damage output under ideal situations, which favors swords, and the miniscule increase they would recieve in the review.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... ost1324423

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 12, 2006, 9:30 am

Can you post your build. I am curious as to where I am putting points that I shouldn't be.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 12, 2006, 10:14 am

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 2000000000

There's what I am using now. If this "revamp" results in a free respec, I would not complain. There are a few points I don't think I would have spent where I did.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 12, 2006, 10:28 am

Well I configured a 16/25/10 build by removing 5 points from Dual Wield, 1 point from Riposte, and 1 point from Blade Flurry (I really liked that talent).

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » July 12, 2006, 10:34 am

Pretty good show of new rogue talents in action.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 12, 2006, 11:44 am

Ok that was rather humorous.

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » July 12, 2006, 5:19 pm

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

Is a fairly standard combat dagger build. You can adjust the points in lightning reflexes and deflection around if you end up with the same later talents. The only other change is some people take one less in SnD for one more in dagger spec.

With a spec like this you should be pulling somewhere around 50/50 white/special dps. It's pretty much pure PvE too as all you can do is hit BS, SnD, BS until SnD is about to drop and refresh etc.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » July 13, 2006, 9:21 am

...still doesnt change the fact that i can kick any rogues ass!

fun pissing off the stealthy bastards with an inopportune frost nova and a few crits

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » July 13, 2006, 4:56 pm

Thank you for the completely necessary response.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » July 14, 2006, 4:55 pm

Seriously...why the points into improved slice n dice? Wouldnt those points be better off somewhere else...like maxing your dagger spec?

Breagen · Post by **Breagen** » July 14, 2006, 6:08 pm

As a pure PvE damage spec combat daggers gains more overall dps from longer duration on SnD, which allows for more backstabs before refreshing, than a 1 or 2% increased crit rate.

Since all you are doing is BS + SnD when necessary the longer the duration the better your overall damage output will be.

murr · Post by **murr** » July 21, 2006, 11:34 pm

this thread makes me sad..

If you're a raiding rogue and you don't have at *least* 2/3 imp SND, you suck.

Also, Dual Wield spec is probably the single best talent in the Combat tree. If you remove it you're a retard.

Can't even touch a 15/31/5 build after revamp for combat daggers.

edit: here's a link to the build. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=y0gcoLZGcib0Ez0boV
The first tier talents are optional in combat - if you prefer LR over imp ss/gouge, go for it. The rest is pretty much mandatory besides Endurance and AR. You will do about the same sustained DPS with 5/5 lethality and points elsewhere than with 31 in combat for AR, but AR's situational utility is very nice.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » July 22, 2006, 12:07 am

I've been sword or fist since day one, but I have to bust out the daggers for 1.12 because theres just no contest anymore

I'm taking imp evis over ruth, however... dodge instead of parry.. and improved sprint instead of Endurance.

5 minute AR should blow the crap out of the water in comparison to one rank of Lethality too

murr · Post by **murr** » July 22, 2006, 3:46 am

cadalano wrote:I've been sword or fist since day one, but I have to bust out the daggers for 1.12 because theres just no contest anymore

I'm taking imp evis over ruth, however... dodge instead of parry.. and improved sprint instead of Endurance.

5 minute AR should blow the crap out of the water in comparison to one rank of Lethality too

agree, agree, but why in the world would you take Dodge over Parry? Parry is >>>>>>>>>>>> Dodge

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » July 22, 2006, 6:03 pm

because i am probably delusional that parry is directional

murr · Post by **murr** » July 22, 2006, 10:47 pm

cadalano wrote:because i am probably delusional that parry is directional

Parry and Dodge function identically except for the fact that (and this is why Parry is more expensive to put on items, points wise) Parry resets your swing timer. So if you parry someone's attack you will hit them with autoattack after your parry instead of waiting for the full swing timer. Which is why parry owns.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 24, 2006, 9:29 am

Is 1.12 live already? When did they move Oppurtuntiy to tier 1? Also, Murr is that build mainly for PvP or PvE?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » July 24, 2006, 9:39 am

a raiding rogue

hahhahahahahahaha

murr · Post by **murr** » July 24, 2006, 12:21 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:Is 1.12 live already? When did they move Oppurtuntiy to tier 1? Also, Murr is that build mainly for PvP or PvE?

They moved Opp to Tier1 in the second pass on the review since the first pass fucked over combat daggers and we bitched.

Aabidano, i'm not sure what that is in response to - we generally roll with 6-7 rogues on every raid.

edit: It's a pure PVE build Bubba.

edit2: if you're daggers, this might be a fun pvp build: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=yheboxZGcZEM0ccGo

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » July 27, 2006, 2:01 pm

Aabidano wrote:
a raiding rogue
hahhahahahahahaha

If you wan't to ignorantly laugh about how badly rogues "suck" on raids you should take it to the WoW Boards where people won't giggle at your cluelessness.