How close is the Middle East to all-out war?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » July 14, 2006, 5:20 pm

While I'm thinking about it, can anyone recommend any good resources online for reading up about the history of the Middle East? Honestly I'm more interested in ancient times than the modern history, but either would be good. Or, perhaps one or two books that do a great job of sumarizing things. Preferably from an unbiased viewpoint

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » July 14, 2006, 5:36 pm

I can only recommend a great book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/038541 ... 59?ie=UTF8

One of the best reads ever! The first half, which concintrates on the lebanese civil war, was facinating. The whole thing revolves around the authors experiences as a New York Times coorespondant in Beruit & Jerusalem in the 80's, but gives great insight as to why things are the way they are over there.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 14, 2006, 5:42 pm

Here's an anti-American Middle East timeline:

1947-48: U.S. backs Palestine partition plan. Israel established. U.S. declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return.

1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.1

1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically‑elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter‑century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi.

1956: U.S. cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms.

1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. U.S. does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.

1958: U.S. troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability".

early 1960s: U.S. unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.2

1963: U.S. supports coup by Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam Hussein) and reportedly gives them names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.3

1967‑: U.S. blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war.

1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and U.S. discuss intervening on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.

1972: U.S. blocks Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Israel.

1973: Airlifted U.S. military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.

1973‑75: U.S. supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and U.S. denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."4

1975: U.S. vetoes Security Council resolution condemning Israeli attacks on Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon.5

1978‑79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. U.S. tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, U.S. tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail.6

1979‑88: U.S. begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979.7 Over the next decade U.S. provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid.

1980‑88: Iran‑Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the U.S. opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. U.S. soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows U.S. arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, U.S. lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 U.S. provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. U.S. provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. 1987 U.S. sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly‑aggressive U.S. ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.

1981, 1986: U.S. holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and U.S. shoots down two Libyan planes. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and U.S. attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing three, the U.S. charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter.8

1982: U.S. gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon,9 killing some 17 thousand civilians.10 U.S. chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of U.S. weapons except in self‑defense. U.S. vetoes several Security Council resolutions condemning the invasion.

1983: U.S. troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping force; intervene on one side of a civil war, including bombardment by USS New Jersey. Withdraw after suicide bombing of marine barracks.

1984: U.S.‑backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner.11

1987-92: U.S. arms used by Israel to repress first Palestinian Intifada. U.S. vetoes five Security Council resolution condemning Israeli repression.

1988: Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and uses chemical weapons against them. The U.S. increases its economic ties to Iraq.

1988: U.S. vetoes 3 Security Council resolutions condemning continuing Israeli occupation of and repression in Lebanon.

1990‑91: U.S. rejects any diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait (for example, rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of Kuwait and of Palestine). U.S. leads international coalition in war against Iraq. Civilian infrastructure targeted.12 To promote "stability" U.S. refuses to aid post‑war uprisings by Shi'ites in the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter flights.13

1991‑: Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. U.S. and Britain block all attempts to lift them. Hundreds of thousands die. Though Security Council had stated that sanctions were to be lifted once Saddam Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended, Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as Saddam remains in power. Sanctions in fact strengthen Saddam's position. Asked about the horrendous human consequences of the sanctions, Madeleine Albright (U.S. ambassador to the UN and later Secretary of State) declares that "the price is worth it."14

1991-: U.S. forces permanently based in Saudi Arabia.

1993‑: U.S. launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self‑defense against an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months earlier.15

1998: U.S. and U.K. bomb Iraq over the issue of weapons inspections, even though Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter.

1998: U.S. destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare. Evidence for the chemical warfare charge widely disputed.16

2000-: Israel uses U.S. arms in attempt to crush Palestinian uprising, killing hundreds of civilians.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » July 14, 2006, 6:22 pm

If the USS New Jersey killed my family, I'd want to kill some americans, too.

Tangurena · Post by **Tangurena** » July 15, 2006, 2:30 am

Dregor Thule wrote:While I'm thinking about it, can anyone recommend any good resources online for reading up about the history of the Middle East?

Here is my review of The Persian Puzzle which was written by someone who supported the invasion of Iraq, and was an Iran/Iraq analyst for the CIA, and for the National Security Council. Pretty much only covers Iran.

Animale wrote:I just don't understand Israel's motivation for their military responses.

Israel wants the US to attack Syria and Iran. So by disproportionately attacking Lebanon, they hope to bring at least Syria into combat, which would then bring the US into combat on Israel's side. As bush has been itching to start a war with Iran for the last year, it would be easy for him to pretend that they attacked us and retaliate without getting any sort of Congressional approval. Expect some counterfeit atrocities to be attributed to the Syrians or Iranians. Like, maybe the stories about "kidnapped" soldiers getting moved to Iran.

Voronwë wrote:Israel can't bomb the facility it is too far underground, from what i understand.

Iran dispersed all their facilities, except for the reactor at Bushehr and the uranium mines. After Brewster-Jennings, and Plame, were burned by the administration, Iran removed and buried all the facilities that we "knew" about (with the 2 exceptions above). Before the IAEA were allowed to inspect the known facilities, most were bulldozed flat, 6-12 inches of topsoil barrelled up and hauled off to be buried elsewhere. If Israel tried to bomb their facilities, they'd be hitting empty fields.

Israel also can't bomb Iran as their aircraft doesn't have the range to attack Iran (and return). So they'd either go on one-way/suicide bombing runs to bomb empty fields, or the US would have to refuel their craft. That would end any last bit of support that any "friendly" Iraqis would have for the US. Hint: expect every last translator/liason to lead US troops into ambushes. Other blowback from a US-assisted Israeli attack on Iran would be that we'd lose every base in the Gulf region, and most US-friendly governments would likely vanish in military coups or civil uprisings. Hint: the eastern seaboard of Saudi (where most of the oil is shipped out of) is predominantly shiite. They won't tolerate Iran getting hammered. A couple RPGs to the pumping stations will turn off most of Saudi's oil production.

The US cannot assist Israel to bomb Iran, as it would destroy the US ability to operate in the mideast. Except for whatevery operations you can do off of a carrier deck. Also, I expect most of the Arab countries to stop exporting oil. While the US has several month's supply stashed away in the petroleum reserves, I expect oil to pass $200/barrel within days of an attack on Iran, and to cross the $1k/barrel range within months, as reserves start to run out. Before oil crosses the $1k/barrel price, global transport - the stuff you need to get the crap from China to your stores - will come to a halt as the price of shipping the stuff exceeds the cost of making the stuff in the US. Except we've boarded up almost all our factories, and sold off the tooling, so it will take years to restart domestic manufacturing.

Remember, the last time Iran turned off their oil exports, back in 1979, the world price of oil doubled. They only export 5% of the world's oil production. That is how tight oil supplies have been for almost 30 years.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 15, 2006, 7:08 am

Good book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/019514 ... e&n=283155

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 15, 2006, 12:09 pm

What kills me is every time I pump gas, some of my money is going to that region.

We must get off oil. I dumps too much money into that whole region and amplifies the problems that reside there.

You want to spend money for middle east peace? Pour your finances and efforts into 3 things.

1. Large capacity electrical storage (better batteries)
2. Room temperature superconductor (pipe electricity around with minimal losses)
3. Fusion (make electricity so cheap that it would be more cost effective than fossil fuel)

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 15, 2006, 7:59 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:What kills me is every time I pump gas, some of my money is going to that region.

We must get off oil. I dumps too much money into that whole region and amplifies the problems that reside there.

You want to spend money for middle east peace? Pour your finances and efforts into 3 things.

1. Large capacity electrical storage (better batteries)
2. Room temperature superconductor (pipe electricity around with minimal losses)
3. Fusion (make electricity so cheap that it would be more cost effective than fossil fuel)

You will die if you discover a new alternative energy source!

Energy Invention Suppression Case Statistics

Number of Energy Invention Suppression Incidents - 53

Number of Dead, Missing, or Injured Energy Inventors, Activists, and Associates - 13

Number of Energy Inventors Threatened with Death - 16

Number of Energy Researchers and Associates Imprisoned - 7

Number of Incidents Involving the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) - 4

Number of Incidents Involving the US Government - 27

Number of Inventions Classified Secret by US Patent Office - Approximately 4000

Number of Incidents Involving Oil Companies - 9

Names of Oil Companies and Banks Involved - Standard, Atlantic Richfield, Shell Oil Company, World Bank, Wells Fargo Bank

Possibly Most Impressive Energy Invention - Philippines Inventor has Converted More than 100 Cars to Run Only on Plain Water!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 15, 2006, 9:31 pm

The US needs to tell Israel to back the fuck off right now.

This is absolutely fucking unbelievable.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » July 15, 2006, 10:03 pm

Wow I agree with Nick, wonders never cease

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » July 15, 2006, 10:30 pm

Winnow wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote:What kills me is every time I pump gas, some of my money is going to that region.

We must get off oil. I dumps too much money into that whole region and amplifies the problems that reside there.

You want to spend money for middle east peace? Pour your finances and efforts into 3 things.

1. Large capacity electrical storage (better batteries)
2. Room temperature superconductor (pipe electricity around with minimal losses)
3. Fusion (make electricity so cheap that it would be more cost effective than fossil fuel)

You will die if you discover a new alternative energy source!

Energy Invention Suppression Case Statistics

Number of Energy Invention Suppression Incidents - 53

Number of Dead, Missing, or Injured Energy Inventors, Activists, and Associates - 13

Number of Energy Inventors Threatened with Death - 16

Number of Energy Researchers and Associates Imprisoned - 7

Number of Incidents Involving the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) - 4

Number of Incidents Involving the US Government - 27

Number of Inventions Classified Secret by US Patent Office - Approximately 4000

Number of Incidents Involving Oil Companies - 9

Names of Oil Companies and Banks Involved - Standard, Atlantic Richfield, Shell Oil Company, World Bank, Wells Fargo Bank

Possibly Most Impressive Energy Invention - Philippines Inventor has Converted More than 100 Cars to Run Only on Plain Water!

IF ONLY WE COULD HARNESS THE POWER OF STUPID

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 16, 2006, 2:05 pm

I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction regarding this current Middle Eastern crisis.

WINNERS:

Undertakers
Breathless but Empty MSM Talking Heads
Satan

LOSERS:

Pretty much everyone else on earth.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 16, 2006, 2:45 pm

Animale wrote:I just don't understand Israel's motivation for their military responses. The kidnapping of the soldiers in the north was a direct response to their invasion of Gaza after the similar incident in the south. Hezbollah has wanted to start a shooting war for a long time, and Israel handed them the means to realize their desires on a silver platter.

It's baffling.

Animale

Baffling? Crawl out from under your rock once...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 16, 2006, 3:42 pm

yeah thats a real accurate symbol of the current situation in the middle east. poor israel.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 16, 2006, 7:09 pm

Oh good old benevolent Israel giving everyone else land as opposed to occupying others land for years on end.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » July 16, 2006, 8:30 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:While I'm thinking about it, can anyone recommend any good resources online for reading up about the history of the Middle East? Honestly I'm more interested in ancient times than the modern history, but either would be good. Or, perhaps one or two books that do a great job of sumarizing things. Preferably from an unbiased viewpoint

Just about anything by Bernard Lewis should be right up your alley. I've already read 4 of his books and they cover exactly what you describe.

These are the 4 books I've read of his so far. All were great books, assuming you have an intense interest in the subject. Otherwise, they are rather dry.

The Arabs in History
The Crisis of Islam
What Went Wrong?
The Shaping of the Modern Middle East

Note: Yes, these are not online resources, but I felt like it was worth mentioning (plus I lack post-reading comprehension skills).

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 17, 2006, 6:34 pm

Nick wrote:The US needs to tell Israel to back the fuck off right now.

This is absolutely fucking unbelievable.

No...the US needs to become completely uninvolved with everything to do with Israel right now. Then fuckwits like you won;t come bitching about US involvement in the Middle East when Israel begins wiping people out........oh wait ! You woul dbitch because we didn;t come over and step in then. Sorry...forgot I was not dealing with a rational thinker.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 17, 2006, 7:15 pm

kyoukan wrote:yeah thats a real accurate symbol of the current situation in the middle east. poor israel.

You seriously have a problem. You are going to side with terrorists groups over an established stable goverment who has tried to deal with these freaks? Freaks who hold on to land as if it fucking matters. People who embrace their religions as if it fucking matters. What is wrong with you? These dumb animals need to put down their guns and start working, making money, taking care of their families and stop focusing in on shit that happened hundreds of years ago. Let it the fuck go. And simpletons like you buy into it with your stupid little comments.

Which way of life would you like to live? That of Israels? That of the Hamas? Or that of Hezbollah? As a woman do you think you personally and your future offspring would thrive better under which structure? hmm?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 17, 2006, 7:20 pm

Hang on, isn't Hamas the government now? Doesn't that make them as legitimate in their attempt to get rid of <insert Israeli government official> as the US was in their (successful) attempt to get rid of Saddam Hussein?

I mean, gee whiz, the Israelis have even attacked them, where as the US thought Iraq might.. sometime in the future... with weapons they used to have and delivery systems they never had... right?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 17, 2006, 8:32 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
kyoukan wrote:yeah thats a real accurate symbol of the current situation in the middle east. poor israel.
You seriously have a problem. You are going to side with terrorists groups over an established stable goverment who has tried to deal with these freaks? Freaks who hold on to land as if it fucking matters. People who embrace their religions as if it fucking matters. What is wrong with you? These dumb animals need to put down their guns and start working, making money, taking care of their families and stop focusing in on shit that happened hundreds of years ago. Let it the fuck go. And simpletons like you buy into it with your stupid little comments.

Yes not agreeing with a political cartoon that depicts israel as blameless saints that have done nothing wrong to their neighbors ever, and has given up all of their land in order to maintain peace means that I fully support terrorists.

My brain actually starts to hurt when it tries to comprehend the depth of your stupidity.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » July 17, 2006, 9:01 pm

What baffles my mind if that these organisations actually have a political presence that almost legitimises what they do and are also encouraged by the voters of these countries to keep doing these things.

I really feel for the innocent civilians that are caught in the middle of all this bullshit.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » July 17, 2006, 9:35 pm

What baffles my mind if that these organisations actually have a political presence that almost legitimises what they do and are also encouraged by the voters of these countries to keep doing these things.

Time to test the democratic peace I suppose.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » July 17, 2006, 9:44 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Nick wrote:The US needs to tell Israel to back the fuck off right now.

This is absolutely fucking unbelievable.
No...the US needs to become completely uninvolved with everything to do with Israel right now. Then fuckwits like you won;t come bitching about US involvement in the Middle East when Israel begins wiping people out........oh wait ! You woul dbitch because we didn;t come over and step in then. Sorry...forgot I was not dealing with a rational thinker.

I quite agree on that one, ill be looking forward to the US cutting off Israel for the massive amouth of money and military equipment you have been giving them. You know, the REASON they are able to pull a stunt like this.
But i doubt thatll happen, because theyre allies, so they can do what they want, right? I mean, its the war against terror, and its just foreign people anyway.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 17, 2006, 10:38 pm

Animalor wrote:What baffles my mind if that these organisations actually have a political presence that almost legitimises what they do and are also encouraged by the voters of these countries to keep doing these things.

I really feel for the innocent civilians that are caught in the middle of all this bullshit.

This is what I said about the bush administration.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 17, 2006, 11:08 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
kyoukan wrote:yeah thats a real accurate symbol of the current situation in the middle east. poor israel.
You seriously have a problem. You are going to side with terrorists groups over an established stable goverment who has tried to deal with these freaks?

Established in the 1950's.

Freaks who hold on to land as if it fucking matters.

The land was theirs appx. 60 years ago. They were forced off of their land. And the assertion that land does not matter is down right moronic. Land has been the cause of the vast majority of wars since the beginning of human history. With land comes natural resources which entails wealth. I agree that the land is not sacred, but it is valuable.

People who embrace their religions as if it fucking matters.

See: America

What is wrong with you? These dumb animals need to put down their guns and start working, making money, taking care of their families and stop focusing in on shit that happened hundreds of years ago.

The beginning of this crisis was towards the end of world war 2, which is again appx. 60 years ago. I understand that you feel no reason whatsoever to be factually accurate in any of the arguments you make. However, it is extremely insulting to anyone with the smallest bit of cognisance about the situation to have to talk to you as if you are a fucking child. Some people, because they are people, use their fucking brain to think rationally. They normally don't equate being against the war with being against the troops, or being against Israel with being for terrorists, because honestly, it doesn't make any fucking sense. It is so goddamn illogical that a retard should bitch slap you across the face for being so fucking ignorant.

Let it the fuck go. And simpletons like you buy into it with your stupid little comments.

I'm a liberal. I love this country at the very least just as much as you do, and as such, I hold it to a higher standard. I don't believe that the United States of America should behave like a country of rabid fucking dogs. But Alas, half the country is just that, neanderthals who cannot shed their primitive predilection towards violence and vengeance, and who will blindly lash out at anything that threatens them regardless of the validity of that threat. Pray tell, how are you any fucking different than those you call your enemies?

What a fucking disgrace you people are to your country.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 18, 2006, 12:11 am

incoming witty midnyte comeback: "Uh huh.

"

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 18, 2006, 12:11 am

Xyun wrote:
What a fucking disgrace you people are to your country.

Yep. I feel so ashamed.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 18, 2006, 12:13 am

Close!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 18, 2006, 12:52 am

You are such an intellectual. Sexy and smart! What a combo.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » July 18, 2006, 11:21 am

Why don't you try to come up with counter arguments?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » July 18, 2006, 11:23 am

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Nick wrote:The US needs to tell Israel to back the fuck off right now.

This is absolutely fucking unbelievable.
No...the US needs to become completely uninvolved with everything to do with Israel right now. Then fuckwits like you won;t come bitching about US involvement in the Middle East when Israel begins wiping people out........oh wait ! You woul dbitch because we didn;t come over and step in then. Sorry...forgot I was not dealing with a rational thinker.

There is a big difference between sending a messenger and telling them to backoff, and sending a soldier that starts shooting telling them to backoff.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 18, 2006, 11:40 am

No...the US needs to become completely uninvolved with everything to do with Israel right now. Then fuckwits like you won;t come bitching about US involvement in the Middle East when Israel begins wiping people out........oh wait ! You woul dbitch because we didn;t come over and step in then. Sorry...forgot I was not dealing with a rational thinker.

You are a fucking moron. Maybe if the US hadn't supplied Israel with billions of dollars worth of weapons so they could fuck Palestine over again and again it wouldn't have the ability to start trampling over any country it wanted to in the region.

I know the US likes to cut and run (Vietnam etc) when it's shown to be supporting a retarded state of affairs but if you insist on being so fucking stupid have the balls to stand up for what you think you're fighting for all the time, instead of when it suits you.

The funny thing is, fucks like you totally fail to see why so many millions of people are absolutely sickened by Israel's endless murder and occupations. Way to go on that "rational mind" you think you have.

What a fucking joke you are.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 18, 2006, 11:40 am

Lynks wrote:Why don't you try to come up with counter arguments?

I'm not a child, so I won't mount a counter arguement to mindless insults of me. Ask me a clear concise question. I'd be more than happy to answer it.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 18, 2006, 11:50 am

"You are a fucking moron. Maybe if the US hadn't supplied Israel with billions of dollars worth of weapons so they could fuck Palestine over again and again it wouldn't have the ability to start trampling over any country it wanted to in the region. "

Without those weapons Israel would no longer exist. Dont get me wrong I think Israel needs to back off but lets be honest Hamas and Hezbollah are not innocent in this either.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » July 18, 2006, 12:03 pm

America is only going to be involved as long as the special interests are making money. Right now the war companies are making big bucks off the conflict. The US government will do nothing to stop this. THe politicians (90% of them) stopped believing in what the American people want a long time ago. They are just there for extra "bennys" they get from the lobbyists. Americans are just too stupid to vote anymore or so apathetic to the process that they don't. The American voter is a sheep who is easily swayed by stupid non-issues like gay marriage.

I am a Libertarian and I am ashamed of my government.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 18, 2006, 12:04 pm

Nick wrote:
No...the US needs to become completely uninvolved with everything to do with Israel right now. Then fuckwits like you won;t come bitching about US involvement in the Middle East when Israel begins wiping people out........oh wait ! You woul dbitch because we didn;t come over and step in then. Sorry...forgot I was not dealing with a rational thinker.
You are a fucking moron. Maybe if the US hadn't supplied Israel with billions of dollars worth of weapons so they could fuck Palestine over again and again it wouldn't have the ability to start trampling over any country it wanted to in the region.

I know the US likes to cut and run (Vietnam etc) when it's shown to be supporting a retarded state of affairs but if you insist on being so fucking stupid have the balls to stand up for what you think you're fighting for all the time, instead of when it suits you.

The funny thing is, fucks like you totally fail to see why so many millions of people are absolutely sickened by Israel's endless murder and occupations. Way to go on that "rational mind" you think you have.

What a fucking joke you are.

If the USSR would not have supplied the entire middle east with weapons, then the US would not have had to supply their enemies with weapons.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 18, 2006, 12:10 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Nick wrote:
No...the US needs to become completely uninvolved with everything to do with Israel right now. Then fuckwits like you won;t come bitching about US involvement in the Middle East when Israel begins wiping people out........oh wait ! You woul dbitch because we didn;t come over and step in then. Sorry...forgot I was not dealing with a rational thinker.
You are a fucking moron. Maybe if the US hadn't supplied Israel with billions of dollars worth of weapons so they could fuck Palestine over again and again it wouldn't have the ability to start trampling over any country it wanted to in the region.

I know the US likes to cut and run (Vietnam etc) when it's shown to be supporting a retarded state of affairs but if you insist on being so fucking stupid have the balls to stand up for what you think you're fighting for all the time, instead of when it suits you.

The funny thing is, fucks like you totally fail to see why so many millions of people are absolutely sickened by Israel's endless murder and occupations. Way to go on that "rational mind" you think you have.

What a fucking joke you are.

If the USSR would not have supplied the entire middle east with weapons, then the US would not have had to supply their enemies with weapons.

Stop with the facts Kilmoll. It will fuck up the point they are tryign to make that the world is good and America is evil.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 18, 2006, 12:11 pm

If snakes had hips they'd be lizards.

Neither side is in the right; that cartoon is an inaccurate oversimplification. I'd like for the US to be able to get out of that quagmire, but I'm not sure how that can happen without a country or two being wiped off the map. It's too bad about religion.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » July 18, 2006, 12:25 pm

Sylvus wrote: It's too bad about religion.

Can I get an Amen?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » July 18, 2006, 12:31 pm

Deward wrote:America is only going to be involved as long as the special interests are making money. Right now the war companies are making big bucks off the conflict. The US government will do nothing to stop this. THe politicians (90% of them) stopped believing in what the American people want a long time ago. They are just there for extra "bennys" they get from the lobbyists. Americans are just too stupid to vote anymore or so apathetic to the process that they don't. The American voter is a sheep who is easily swayed by stupid non-issues like gay marriage.

I am a Libertarian and I am ashamed of my government.

QFT!!

Long live the industrial-military complex!! Wars = more defense contracts = more jobs = more money into our economy. Sad, but true.

"WAR!! It's Faaaaaaantastic!"

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 18, 2006, 12:36 pm

If the USSR would not have supplied the entire middle east with weapons

Yes, thats right, the whole middle east has been armed by the USSR and the US just did it to benevolently protect Israel who then used it on those REALLY WELL ARMED PALESTINIANS

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 18, 2006, 1:06 pm

No...the US did the same thing they did with Afghanistan and sent military aid to their ally. I sure as fuck don't remember the US making 800 billion AK-47's and shipping them to the Middle East though.....oh wait! Maybe the gubment has a sekrit plant making AK-47 and other Russian military gear that they sektirly send to the Middle East in some big plot to make it LOOK like the Russkies supplied all that so we would have reasons to attack!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 18, 2006, 1:18 pm

Please go and educate yourself before posting again so you don't waste anymore of our time.

Lt. Col. Oliver North · Post by **Lt. Col. Oliver North** » July 18, 2006, 1:58 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:No...the US did the same thing they did with Afghanistan and sent military aid to their ally. I sure as fuck don't remember the US making 800 billion AK-47's and shipping them to the Middle East though.....oh wait! Maybe the gubment has a sekrit plant making AK-47 and other Russian military gear that they sektirly send to the Middle East in some big plot to make it LOOK like the Russkies supplied all that so we would have reasons to attack!

Everyone should listen to this guy.. he knows what really happened.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » July 18, 2006, 2:05 pm

Lt. Col. Oliver North wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:No...the US did the same thing they did with Afghanistan and sent military aid to their ally. I sure as fuck don't remember the US making 800 billion AK-47's and shipping them to the Middle East though.....oh wait! Maybe the gubment has a sekrit plant making AK-47 and other Russian military gear that they sektirly send to the Middle East in some big plot to make it LOOK like the Russkies supplied all that so we would have reasons to attack!
Everyone should listen to this guy.. he knows what really happened.

loller!

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » July 18, 2006, 3:15 pm

(jail...haha, just kidding)
i have to be careful, i cracked up so loud that now my boss is suspicious that I'm not working. Thanks, Oliver North!

Trek · Post by **Trek** » July 18, 2006, 9:12 pm

Who does make the T-series of tanks and the BMP's that consisted the majority of the middle eastern armies at least through the 90's? I havent kept up with war machines through the years but russian equipment was very prominent in that region for a long time

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 18, 2006, 9:45 pm

Trek wrote:Who does make the T-series of tanks and the BMP's that consisted the majority of the middle eastern armies at least through the 90's? I havent kept up with war machines through the years but russian equipment was very prominent in that region for a long time

Those are Russian tanks. More info can be found about them here: http://www.defencejournal.com/may99/t-72.htm

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 18, 2006, 10:12 pm

Russia sold a ridiculous amount of military hardware to any country with the money to buy. So? nothing wrong with that. At least they didn't fund only one country that was in a conflict with another, but then secretly sell to the other country as well in order to prolong wars in the region to keep the region from stabalizing and modernizing. Then adopt a 'who, me?' attitude when getting caught at it. And then blaming the same fucking countries for being aggresive towards them and wondering why they hate the west so much.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 18, 2006, 10:36 pm

Yea......post facts first. The US also sells weapons to damn near every enemy of Israel except for Iran and a couple other countries.

http://worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/re ... e2005.html

In 2003, more than half of the top 25 recipients of U.S. arms transfers in the developing world (13 of 25) were defined as undemocratic by the U.S. State Department’s Human Rights Report: in the sense that "citizens do not have the right to change their own government" or that right was seriously abridged. These 13 nations received over $2.7 billion in U.S. arms transfers under the Foreign Military Sales and Commercial Sales programs in 2003, with the top recipients including Saudi Arabia ($1.1 billion), Egypt ($1.0 billion), Kuwait ($153 million), the United Arab Emirates ($110 million) and Uzbekistan ($33 million).

Well by golly...those all appear to be Muslim countries.

The biggest increases in dollar terms went to countries that were directly or indirectly engaged as U.S. allies in the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, including Jordan ($525 million increase from 2001 to 2003), Afghanistan ($191 million increase), Pakistan ($224 million increase) and Bahrain ($90 million increase).

Hmmmm...more Muslim countries. You may also notice that some of those were banned from receiving sales previously due to harboring terorists. Once their governments began to at least put a little pressure on to eliminate that, they began to get sales.